MDesc Hiding Gear for 2016 (Second Half)

[whitt]

Before LauraMars has to stop celebrating long enough to split the Celebration thread...

I don't like the change. I don't like the way it changes the dynamics for stealth characters. I think it should be obvious when someone notice-observes you.

PetPeeve

I think it should be obvious when someone follows you through the narrow doorway of your apartment and you close the door right behind you.

I think it should be obvious when you're talking to some one and they disappear in the middle of the conversation while you are looking right at them.

I think... the list is too long.

Until stealth stops being transdimensional movement and better than invisibility?  I don't think the stealth characters have much to worry about.

/PetPeeve

That said, players should be just as accountable for not reporting details about characters that they can't see as stealthy characters are about using their super-powers responsibly.

MDesc Hiding Gear for 2016!  Like if you had a hood up, facewrap on, and cloak closed... No mdesc.  Only tdesc and gear/tats/scars.

[Jihelu]

Please.
Please.

[Barsook]

I dig this for the realism!

[LauraMars]

I like this idea and have always liked it.

[Lizzie]

It's not realistic, and realism isn't a concern to me at all. What it isn't, that does concern me, is believable.

You're trying to tell me that when the figure in the dark hooded cloak shows up and I look at him -

I won't noticed that he's missing two fingers on his left hand, his right leg is significantly shorter than his left, one of his eyes is black and the other is blue, and whatever skin is exposed, is peeling in grey flakes.

I won't notice that, because it's all part of his mdesc which you don't want me to see, just because he's wearing a closed hooded cloak.

[Majikal]

I despise mdesc hiding items because of the silliness that went along with them and the effort people would go through to kill someone and obtain their cloth sack with holes cut in it or their weird bunny mask (not joking, it was a thing).

The idea of a way to simply hide yourself with the facewraps, masks and hoods available makes the game more dangerous and provides more chance for conflict (which I am allllll for). Of course cloaking up in burglar/ninja fashion to hide your mdesc would demonstrate you are most certaintly up to no good and get dealt with accordingly too. Lizzie's concerns are 100 percent valid and I wish there was a more complex way to address it with the code. I think the pro's outweigh the cons though. Any code change that gives the opportunity for more MCB I like being brought into the game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I despise mdesc hiding items because of the silliness that went along with them and the effort people would go through to kill someone and obtain their cloth sack with holes cut in it or their weird bunny mask (not joking, it was a thing).

The idea of a way to simply hide yourself with the facewraps, masks and hoods available makes the game more dangerous and provides more chance for conflict (which I am allllll for). Of course cloaking up in burglar/ninja fashion to hide your mdesc would demonstrate you are most certaintly up to no good and get dealt with accordingly too. Lizzie's concerns are 100 percent valid and I wish there was a more complex way to address it with the code. I think the pro's outweigh the cons though. Any code change that gives the opportunity for more MCB I like being brought into the game.

Every time this topic comes up, this has always been the real concern.  The way Arm's appearance code works, it just isn't feasible.. so it's always the binary all or nothing.

I was looking at Sindome the other day, and as an example, their appearance code seems pretty interesting and would probably work to address this issue (I'm sure there are other muds might have something similar as well?):

http://www.sindome.org/about/appearance/

[Lizzie]

Another possibility could be head-to-toe costumes. But they would replace your clothing, and be worn as a jumpsuit and hooded mask. You'd have to take all your clothes off, have no pack. Remember - there's no spandex, lycra, zippers, or velcro in Zalanthas. This stuff would by necessity be pretty baggy and totally impractical to wear unless it was custom-made. And if you really wanted to wear a silly erdlu costume, it'd come complete with fake scales, no armholes, enough boning and stuffing to bend you over awkwardly so you couldn't walk straight, and the headpiece would probably be so heavy you'd want to take it off soon after putting it on.

[whitt]

I won't notice that, because it's all part of his mdesc which you don't want me to see, just because he's wearing a closed hooded cloak.

I'd expect those things to be in the tdesc.  But yes, I know that won't happen.

[Jingo]

Masks and disguises work very well in the real world.

I don't see why they wouldn't work on zalanthas even with your hyper-observant finger counting character.

[BadSkeelz]

Make wearing items that hide your mdesc a criminal offence.

[Norcal]

Make wearing items that hide your mdesc a criminal offence.

This. Would work in towns.

[Dresan]

I want to see items like this in game.

After some thought there is no reason why we shouldn't. However these items should be treated like the equivalent of ski masks, made for hard weather conditions. If you walk in the bank wearing a ski mask in the middle of summer, all eyes will be on you and police might be notified. It isn't illegal but it raises suspicion. This gear/masks would be made for heavy storms, specifically covering most of the face except eyes for protection,thus more be purposely thicker and obscure than say a light veil over the face. If you wearing it in the bar or even in the city should be considered weird and suspicions since it would be something a criminal would do who is trying to hide their identity.

Thus:

• If you are hiding your Mdesc in cities/towns where there are no heavy storms, it should be considered suspicion. With redstorm possibly being the exception
• Shop keepers should not sell to people wearing these items in their shop because they would naturally be wary.
• Regular people would probably think twice of doing business or talking with someone who doesn't give their name and is hiding their identity.
• Militia and soldiers  would naturally be on these people like flies on shit. It would be natural to order them to stand up, identify themselves, remove their coverings. Again they might be  known criminal.

If you think about it this way, there are more pros for the overall game than cons, if its handled this particular way. It should not be considered the same as someone walking around with their hood up, and as we know even that can get your ass kicked now and then.  It gives something for militia something more to do, and they would need to harass anyone they see wearing such things. Again it wouldn't be illegal but it would be normal get fined and have your ass kicked if you keep drawing attention like that, maybe even labeled a criminal after a while too if you are caught like that too many times.  

I trust the community not to abuse this by putting it. However, even if someone puts it on and walks into the bar to be an asshole to everyone there, it would just be a job for militia and templars to deal with...or the brawl code. Brawl code in bars could have an additional effect of having those face coverings yanked off.  

Ultimately I feel this addition would lead to more conflict but not necessarily more murders. This is not only because karma is more important now and the fact that staff/community frowns on and stops griefer who kills without any reason. But because it opens the door to conflict resolution that doesn't have to be fatal or social suicide for the attacker.  I think what we would see more of though is more muggings, and people beaten unconscious and having them wake their valuables (including an ear or an eyeball) missing both in cities/towns and outside in the wilderness.

[Brytta Léofa]

Make wearing items that hide your mdesc a criminal offence.

This. Would work in towns.

- Make items that hide your mdesc be common and cheap, but cause you to be crime-flagged you if you walk into a populated city room wearing one - even if you're sneaking/hidden. It's silly for them to be rare and expensive, but there has to be some tradeoff; things will get bad if rinth-rats can sneak + hide + mdesc-hide with complete impunity.

- Add a concise, invariant-across-species-and-heights description to assess -v.
He appears young for his race.
He appears to be a young human, taller than average and heavier than average.
He is slightly taller than you.
He is slightly heavier than you.
The tall, muscular man is in excellent condition.
The tall, muscular man does not look tired.

Giving everybody a preternatural, error-free ability to accurately size up everyone else isn't exactly realistic, but it gives people a minimally-annoying, non-finicky way to describe an mdesc-hidden person.  (Also, as I recall, "for his race" was made the universal wording some years back to help half-elves blend in; that's unnecessary now since half-elves can choose how they present.)

[solera]

I'm not keen on NPCs jumping on you for what might be an OOC oversight .

[Evilone]

I'm all for mdesc hiding gear. All the other RPI's I've played have used them, and playing a criminal on one of them for over a couple RL years, they are wonderful. I'd much rather be safe than sorry, letting the PC's description be hidden and rely on them to RP what can be seen accordinaly, than trust the player to RP not immediately knowing who you are by a simple look command if you are RPing being covered up and in a mask. If said PC's with the mdesc hiding gear are abusing, appropriate measures can be taken. The temptation is great, and it's hard if you know who it is and then have to suddenly pretend you don't. Your whole perspective changes, and the mystery is gone. Though those other RPI muds also had a stare command, which had a delay, but would let you see their sdesc.

This gear should be illegal contraband and be immediate reason for arrest.

[Lizzie]

I won't -not- have a huge problem with mdesc hiding gear, for the precise reason that it hides the entire mdesc. This topic comes up basically on a yearly basis, and my concern is always the same, and there are very few solutions to the problems it will cause. So far, the staff has only explained why it was taken out (some of which is my concern with it).

So to revisit my #1 concern and the solution to it that I have, and have had all these years:

Your mdesc isn't supposed to describe only your face and hair. It's supposed to describe your entire character, minus mundane/ordinary scars/tattoos that can be acquired via the hall of kings or immediately out of it. It doesn't need to be in great detail, unless that detail is profoundly obvious (such as a missing left arm or a hump back).

A *mask* that hides an mdesc, therefore, is a cheat. It's using a thing that covers the face only, that does NOT obscure the rest of the body, but the code forces it to anyway because we don't have the ability, currently, to change our mdescs and most people don't remember (or don't bother) to use tdesc, ever let alone when appropriate.

A *costume* that hides an mdesc shouldn't be hiding the body shape, if there's something unusual about it. Such as that humpback or missing arm. But the way the code is presently, your idea of wearing a costume WOULD obscure that humpback or missing arm, because you want it to obscure the entire mdesc.

So that's my issue with it.

My solution - I've refined it, but the basic premise is the same:

Change the mdesc code in chargen to accommodate for the possibility that the character will at some point wear an mdesc-obscuring object.

Implementation is a little different than when I first made this suggestion; here's my update on it:

Require fill-in target words during the chargen process, which would be used to provide a secondary "hdesc" for hidden descriptions (not hidden people - just their descriptions).

Blah blah blah is tressy tressed and slinky with broad shoulders, a humpback,
three feet. She has one dark brown eye and one pale blue eye. She is ample-
bottomed with ass-cheeks that jiggle when she moves, and is entirely flatchested
over her concave stomach.

Chargen asks:
Is there anything in your mdesc that stands out? Y

Okay. Include 1-4 words for each of the following that describe anything that stands out:
(separate features within each line with commas)

Head: brown eye, blue eye
Upper Torso: humpback, flat-chested
Lower Torso: ample-bottomed, concave stomach
Legs/feet: Three feet
Arms/Hands: [left blank]

Now, when you wear an mdesc-hiding costume, you'll see the following:

The figure in the green-scaled tregil-mask costume:
Blah blah generic tregil-like features for the face-mask part.
A brown eye and a green eye are visible through the mask. The figure
has a humpback and is flat chested, ample-bottomed with a
concave stomach. The figure has three feet.

It's clunky and I'm sure someone else could refine it further but that's the idea. Reason: Really big people shouldn't be capable of wearing costumes that make them appear to be really small. Really fat people shouldn't be capable of wearing costumes that make them magically appear to be really thin or even average. People with three legs shouldn't be able to just toss a mask over their face and suddenly no one can see the third foot sticking down from their left ankle. Humpbacked people shouldn't be capable of suddenly NOT being humpbacked, just because they threw a purple jerkin over their body.

[valeria]

I'd really rather have a disguise skill, guys.

You would use said gear to "disguise" yourself, allowing you to put in a temporary mdesc that replaces your current mdesc.

Much like stealth, you would have no idea if your mdesc is what you think it is, or if people looking at you actually see you.

You could also change your height/weight/sex with it.

You would have to use skill-appropriate tools.

[Chettaman]

How about... during character creation; "hidden discriptions" are asked for.

''Hooded discription''
''masked / half-masked / full helmed discription''
''etc..."

so when you throw a hood up it replaces your mdesc with your hmdesc?

[Lizzie]

How about... during character creation; "hidden discriptions" are asked for.

''Hooded discription''
''masked / half-masked / full helmed discription''
''etc..."

so when you throw a hood up it replaces your mdesc with your hmdesc?

That sets the learning curve just for chargen to an incredibly high level for new players. Most new players (heck most players, period) want to get the chargen done and done so they can get approved and start playing ASAP. Most players aren't going to want to dedicate all that much time to creating a bunch of different descriptions JUST IN CASE they happen to need to make use of one of the alternates.

I'd thought of a secondary description just for covered faces...

But then I thought maybe requiring the original mdesc to have two phases - one for the head/face/hair, and one for the rest of the body - so that if their face is covered, the bottom part of the mdesc would still be visible, and the covered part would simply not show up when someone looked at them.

[Thunkkin]

That sets the learning curve just for chargen to an incredibly high level for new players.

What if mdesc hiding equipment by default shows your mdesc, until you set a hiddenmdesc (works like tdesc) description. If you have something entered for hiddenmdesc, then it shows that instead. Newbies entering the game are none the wiser until they need to be. Players who abuse the hiddenmdesc can have the ability to change it removed or staff can could even edit something into it if the player was being particularly abusive (like adding "He has six arms" to the end of the hiddenmdesc).

[Lizzie]

That sets the learning curve just for chargen to an incredibly high level for new players.

What if mdesc hiding equipment by default shows your mdesc, until you set a hiddenmdesc (works like tdesc) description. If you have something entered for hiddenmdesc, then it shows that instead. Newbies entering the game are none the wiser until they need to be. Players who abuse the hiddenmdesc can have the ability to change it removed or staff can could even edit something into it if the player was being particularly abusive (like adding "He has six arms" to the end of the hiddenmdesc).

You can already do that with tdesc, and most people don't use tdesc at all, let alone to significantly append their mdesc. That's why this is an issue in the first place. Because even now, with the ability to do this with tdesc, people don't. When given the option, people opt out.

The only solution would be a mandatory change, such that the disguise simply wouldn't fit if you didn't have one of those other descriptions.

[Thunkkin]

That sets the learning curve just for chargen to an incredibly high level for new players.

What if mdesc hiding equipment by default shows your mdesc, until you set a hiddenmdesc (works like tdesc) description. If you have something entered for hiddenmdesc, then it shows that instead. Newbies entering the game are none the wiser until they need to be. Players who abuse the hiddenmdesc can have the ability to change it removed or staff can could even edit something into it if the player was being particularly abusive (like adding "He has six arms" to the end of the hiddenmdesc).

You can already do that with tdesc, and most people don't use tdesc at all, let alone to significantly append their mdesc. That's why this is an issue in the first place. Because even now, with the ability to do this with tdesc, people don't. When given the option, people opt out.

The only solution would be a mandatory change, such that the disguise simply wouldn't fit if you didn't have one of those other descriptions.

ER ... but if people opt out with what I suggested, then their mdesc would be shown by default ... so ...

[evilcabbage]

tdesc is hardly capable of "significantly" appending to anything. it's a couple of lines of flavor text, nothing more.

lots of people use tdesc.

[Chettaman]

Thunkkin's got a great idea.

default the mdesc until someone uses the "hdesc" command.
The hdesc command can only be used if someone has a hood up or a mask or some other cover.

So... anyone who /wants/ to have their description hidden can. And anyone who doesn't or doesn't even care either way won't.