Should Extended Mundane Subguilds be Karma-locked?

[evilcabbage]

one of my special apps took like a week.

you think staff like me a whole bunch?

i think they just willingly gave me a chance. so.

Rinthel was a believable scumbag who a lot of people had a genuine dislike for just because of actions.  Player plays well, but tends to focus a bit too much on coded gains. - 3/22/10

Not the best sportsman.  Recieved a very good death with Berdrel, lots of RP and drama.  Received kudos for the death.  When sent kudos, replied to email with "Meh." - 3/22/10

Multiple desert elves roam the entire world with little regard to any ethos or consideration for interaction within the tribe.  Watch for extended abuse. - 6/09/10

Don't trust this guy.  He's also involved in discussion of the game, metagaming in an OOC medium.  If it continues, ban will ensue. - 7/16/10

After some thought, I'm banning the account for a week anyway.  They know better, I warned their compatriots that if they continue, I am going to punish them and anyone involved. - 7/16/10

Abusive of situations regarding code, either over emoting for small coded injuries and blaming others, or doing things like raising and lowering barrier to make themselves pass out. - 1/01/12

30 day ban for engaging in a rape plotline without the consent of the other player. - 12/09/12

Unbanned and notified that next offense will result in a permanent ban. - 1/08/13



now after all that happened:

SpecAppGuild flag water_elem set - 6/18/10

SpecAppGuild flag water_elem set - 3/22/11

SpecAppGuild flag water_elem set - 6/19/11

SpecAppGuild flag stone_elem set - 11/13/11


i mean, these were given while i was a completely bad, awful person - and i still got special apps accepted. hell, i got them accepted when i started playing in 2010. note:

Created: Fri Jan 22 16:14:42 2010.

that is the day my account came into existence
SpecAppGuild flag water_elem set - 6/18/10

six months later, special app.

[Narf]

A lot of people seem to be arguing that extended subguilds should not have their karma requirements removed because it's easy to get around those requirements. Besides the fact that this is not universally true (particularly for new players who don't read the GDB), it isn't a logical argument.

Saying that a restriction is easy to get around in no way implies that such a restriction should exist.

An argument for the karma restriction on mundane extended subguilds should look something like this:

Restricting access to superior mundane skills should be done using karma because it will make the game better in the following ways
(insert list of ways the game is made better here).

You should make note of why karma specifically should be the means by which extended guild access is granted, as opposed to other options for limiting their access. You should also make note of why this limited access should exist in the first place.

If you haven't done both of these things, at least in your head, then you may want to take another long look at what your position should really be.

[evilcabbage]

nearly every extended sub is within extended subguild application range because the +three karma bonus applies to extended apps as well.

so pretty much every single extended subguild that isn't magickal in nature is available if you app for it.

[Narf]

nearly every extended sub is within extended subguild application range because the +three karma bonus applies to extended apps as well.

so pretty much every single extended subguild that isn't magickal in nature is available if you app for it.

Is this in response to my post?

I was aware of this information. I do not, however, understand its relevance to anything I said.

[RogueGunslinger]

A lot of people seem to be arguing that extended subguilds should not have their karma requirements removed because it's easy to get around those requirements. Besides the fact that this is not universally true (particularly for new players who don't read the GDB), it isn't a logical argument.

Saying that a restriction is easy to get around in no way implies that such a restriction should exist.

I think you're misinterpreting why that's being said, at least by me(has anyone else said it?). It's in direct response to the argument that vets are at an appreciably unfair advantage, thus cultivating some sort of atmosphere of that separates new players from veterans. As I already said I think extended subguilds should be available for everyone. I also think Karma should be much easier to get.

But I also think the system as it is now is fine, and caters well to the people who are complaining about what they see as favoritism and player divides.

[hyzhenhok]

That isn't mootness. That's an artificial, completely unnecessary barrier. If you're going to say new players should and do have easy access to extended subguilds anyway, surely there's no reason to have a separate application process.

The barrier is "take the extra 5 minutes to send application through request too." and "wait a tad longer"

Even if it was artificial it's practically superficial.  Also you seem to be of the mind that I'm against everyone being able to use extended subguilds. That is very much not the case.

I don't think they should be behind Karma...

See? I just find the idea that those extended subs offer too much benifit to vets and upset some sort of balance of "fairness" to be silly and way overblown.

Your subjective assessment of the significance of the barrier (which I disagree with) doesn't justify its continued existence. Small injustices are still injustice. It certainly doesn't speak to "mootness"--it would be moot if mundane extended subguilds were removed. It would be moot if all karma roles were forced through the special application tool.

The ease of access that new players have for these roles really just speaks to the illogic of tying them to karma in the first place.

[evilcabbage]

nearly every extended sub is within extended subguild application range because the +three karma bonus applies to extended apps as well.

so pretty much every single extended subguild that isn't magickal in nature is available if you app for it.

Is this in response to my post?

I was aware of this information. I do not, however, understand its relevance to anything I said.

apparently i can see the future, i was responding to hyzhenhok.

[RogueGunslinger]

That isn't mootness. That's an artificial, completely unnecessary barrier. If you're going to say new players should and do have easy access to extended subguilds anyway, surely there's no reason to have a separate application process.

The barrier is "take the extra 5 minutes to send application through request too." and "wait a tad longer"

Even if it was artificial it's practically superficial.  Also you seem to be of the mind that I'm against everyone being able to use extended subguilds. That is very much not the case.

I don't think they should be behind Karma...

See? I just find the idea that those extended subs offer too much benifit to vets and upset some sort of balance of "fairness" to be silly and way overblown.

Your subjective assessment of the significance of the barrier (which I disagree with) doesn't justify its continued existence. Small injustices are still injustice. It certainly doesn't speak to "mootness"--it would be moot if mundane extended subguilds were removed. It would be moot if all karma roles were forced through the special application tool.

The ease of access that new players have for these roles really just speaks to the illogic of tying them to karma in the first place.

Are you even reading my posts? You seem to still think I'm against newbies having extended subguilds. It would be a whole lot easier to have a discussion if you could stop shoving words down my throat long enough to actually process what I'm trying to say to you.

This is what I said in context:

Can you explain yourself a little bit, Vwest? Are you saying you don't like how ext-subs offers more power to vets? That entire argument seems moot because newbies can play every one of the extended sub-guilds. All they have to do is spec-app.

Veterans will always have an advantage. Fact of the matter is there's SO much more to being good at this game than having a good skill-set. Even if noobs had unfettered access to ext-subs, they would still get plowed over by someone with meta knowledge, both for that job promotion and in pvp.

I bolded a few key parts why I think THAT SPECIFIC argument is moot. I also heavily suggest you go look up the definition of moot.

[evilcabbage]

moot.

[hyzhenhok]

That isn't mootness. That's an artificial, completely unnecessary barrier. If you're going to say new players should and do have easy access to extended subguilds anyway, surely there's no reason to have a separate application process.

The barrier is "take the extra 5 minutes to send application through request too." and "wait a tad longer"

Even if it was artificial it's practically superficial.  Also you seem to be of the mind that I'm against everyone being able to use extended subguilds. That is very much not the case.

I don't think they should be behind Karma...

See? I just find the idea that those extended subs offer too much benifit to vets and upset some sort of balance of "fairness" to be silly and way overblown.

Your subjective assessment of the significance of the barrier (which I disagree with) doesn't justify its continued existence. Small injustices are still injustice. It certainly doesn't speak to "mootness"--it would be moot if mundane extended subguilds were removed. It would be moot if all karma roles were forced through the special application tool.

The ease of access that new players have for these roles really just speaks to the illogic of tying them to karma in the first place.

Are you even reading my posts? You seem to still think I'm against newbies having extended subguilds. It would be a whole lot easier to have a discussion if you could stop shoving words down my throat long enough to actually process what I'm trying to say to you.

This is what I said in context:

Can you explain yourself a little bit, Vwest? Are you saying you don't like how ext-subs offers more power to vets? That entire argument seems moot because newbies can play every one of the extended sub-guilds. All they have to do is spec-app.

Veterans will always have an advantage. Fact of the matter is there's SO much more to being good at this game than having a good skill-set. Even if noobs had unfettered access to ext-subs, they would still get plowed over by someone with meta knowledge, both for that job promotion and in pvp.

I bolded a few key parts why I think THAT SPECIFIC argument is moot. I also heavily suggest you go look up the definition of moot.

You are arguing that something that costs $1 is free because it's inexpensive. You are wrong.

[evilcabbage]

i do not see the point you are making, hyzhen. all he is saying is that veterans will always have an advantage.

newbies can still extended app.

it takes roughly six months, at best, to earn your first point of karma.

that unlocks more options.

it is a natural progression. extended subguilds are more powerful than their counterparts, considerably so.

ever seen a warrior/slipknife before? no? that's because they probably killed you before you realized what was happening.

newbies need time to get used to the game before they start becoming exposed to offerings of greater power. it helps them to learn syntax, understand the rp and lore of the world. a newbie can start with a ranger/thief, or a warrior/thug, or a pickpocket/armormaker, and from there he can earn his knocks like everybody else had to.

my question is, why did you not bring this up when extended subguilds became a thing?

[Lizzie]

To agree with the cabbage is to become one with the eggroll.

Sincerely,
Eggroll

[Narf]

... it is a natural progression. extended subguilds are more powerful than their counterparts, considerably so.

ever seen a warrior/slipknife before? no? that's because they probably killed you before you realized what was happening.

newbies need time to get used to the game before they start becoming exposed to offerings of greater power. it helps them to learn syntax, understand the rp and lore of the world. a newbie can start with a ranger/thief, or a warrior/thug, or a pickpocket/armormaker, and from there he can earn his knocks like everybody else had to.

my question is, why did you not bring this up when extended subguilds became a thing?

This is a much better argument. It has a premise and a consequence for the game, as well as something to connect the two.

And for the most part, I concur. There is an advantage in not making mundane extended subguilds available to everyone all the time. The part I disagree with is that the limiting mechanism should be karma. When the extended subguilds initially debuted the primary limiting mechanism to them was special applications. Everyone got the same number, and for the most part brand new players (people that might be coming from purely Hack and Slash games) didn't bother with them. While karma did come into play if you wanted to play an extended subguild plus something else, for the most part it wasn't nearly as relevant as  how many special applications you had left that year.

Under this system the extended subguilds were a little extra something that any player could get access to once in a while in roughly equal proportions across karma levels.

Compared with all karma-required options, extended subguilds are unique. All of the existing karma options have some sort of drawback to them and an innate flavor that needs to be reflected by a player with some degree of experience. Extended subguilds have no innate flavor, and have no coded or rp-related drawbacks. They are different in this way than everything that's come before, and that's why I think that staff would do well to divest them from the Karma system alltogether. Linking them to the karma system inarguably ties character power to karma. No matter what you enjoy playing, no matter what role you want to fill, you'll now be able to do the coded portion of it better if you have karma.

To me this is not what the karma system was ever supposed to be about, and making karma characters just flat out superior to non-karma characters will taint the experience of some new players and even a few old ones. And what do you gain for this? Just a little bit of simplicity because you don't want to come up with a more suitable system.

[Lizzie]

Your bolded assertion isn't true Narf.

If I want to play the role of a person who works in a GMH as a crafter, there is no part of the subguilds that will make me play that role any better, codedly, than the mundane, ordinary Merchant main guild. It won't matter which subguild I pick, none of them will help me be a better crafter, because none of them have anything I'll need as a master crafter that I can't get from the main guild.

If I want to play the role of a Militia soldier, no subguild will let me play that (codedly) better than a mundane warrior main guild. There are also mundane subguilds I can select that will complement the warrior guild, without my having to revert to karma use.

The same is true for a ranger employed by a GMH as a hunter.

Remember - those magick subguilds can only help you if you don't mind risking being caught as a magicker, and GMHs and ALL "publically-acceptable" clans otehr than Oash do -not- hire magickers. So you'd have to hide it - which means you'd never be able to use it in the presence of your co-workers, or you'd have to get gemmed and get tossed out of the clan (or killed).

Sure you could pick a sneaky-type extended subguild for your ranger but it's not going to make you a better ranger, codedly. Merchant/sneaky-ext-subguild won't make you a better master crafter. And so on and so forth.

The main guilds that are still in existence, are the best at what they are. No subguild will make them better than that, if you choose to play the skillset as a whole rather than the sum of its parts.

[Norcal]

Your bolded assertion isn't true Narf.

If I want to play the role of a person who works in a GMH as a crafter, there is no part of the subguilds that will make me play that role any better, codedly, than the mundane, ordinary Merchant main guild. It won't matter which subguild I pick, none of them will help me be a better crafter, because none of them have anything I'll need as a master crafter that I can't get from the main guild.

If I want to play the role of a Militia soldier, no subguild will let me play that (codedly) better than a mundane warrior main guild. There are also mundane subguilds I can select that will complement the warrior guild, without my having to revert to karma use.

The same is true for a ranger employed by a GMH as a hunter.

Remember - those magick subguilds can only help you if you don't mind risking being caught as a magicker, and GMHs and ALL "publically-acceptable" clans otehr than Oash do -not- hire magickers. So you'd have to hide it - which means you'd never be able to use it in the presence of your co-workers, or you'd have to get gemmed and get tossed out of the clan (or killed).

Sure you could pick a sneaky-type extended subguild for your ranger but it's not going to make you a better ranger, codedly. Merchant/sneaky-ext-subguild won't make you a better master crafter. And so on and so forth.

The main guilds that are still in existence, are the best at what they are. No subguild will make them better than that, if you choose to play the skillset as a whole rather than the sum of its parts.

This is 100 % truth. Mundane extended subguilds -for the most part-, do not require more trust than other available non- karma options.

If karma is about trust, then most of them should not be karma locked.

If karma is about trust and/or perks, then they should be locked. Perks are not necessarily bad, as long as the method of obtaining them is clear and objective.

For now, the system works fine. Even a day 1 player can special app an extended subguild.  I reckon the wait for that is less than what it used to be.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[evilcabbage]

extended subguild apps are generally one week at the most to wait for.

[Narf]

Your bolded assertion isn't true Narf.

If I want to play the role of a person who works in a GMH as a crafter, there is no part of the subguilds that will make me play that role any better, codedly, than the mundane, ordinary Merchant main guild. It won't matter which subguild I pick, none of them will help me be a better crafter, because none of them have anything I'll need as a master crafter that I can't get from the main guild.

If I want to play the role of a Militia soldier, no subguild will let me play that (codedly) better than a mundane warrior main guild. There are also mundane subguilds I can select that will complement the warrior guild, without my having to revert to karma use.

The same is true for a ranger employed by a GMH as a hunter.

Remember - those magick subguilds can only help you if you don't mind risking being caught as a magicker, and GMHs and ALL "publically-acceptable" clans otehr than Oash do -not- hire magickers. So you'd have to hide it - which means you'd never be able to use it in the presence of your co-workers, or you'd have to get gemmed and get tossed out of the clan (or killed).

Sure you could pick a sneaky-type extended subguild for your ranger but it's not going to make you a better ranger, codedly. Merchant/sneaky-ext-subguild won't make you a better master crafter. And so on and so forth.

The main guilds that are still in existence, are the best at what they are. No subguild will make them better than that, if you choose to play the skillset as a whole rather than the sum of its parts.

I assure you it is.

1) An extended subguild could be used to get a skill your main guild gets with a higher maximum
2) An extended subguild could be used to get a better branch pattern than your main guild, allowing you to branch a normally difficult to acquire skill more easily
3) An extended subguild could be used to get a skill that is complimentary to your main guild (for instance a higher forage skill for your crafter so they can get their materials)

Main guilds don't start with everything they need to codedly fulfill their roles most often, and subguilds can help with that. Extended subguilds help more.

Finally, even if you absolutely do not care about any skill a subguild can give you, you can play a touched and get some sort of wonky benefit that might potentially help you in a non-skill related capacity.

Be careful with claims about something being useless. There's always someone out there that will have thought of something you didn't.

Edited to note that this is only barely related to my actual point as having the option to play an extended subguild will provide superior options even if they aren't used.

[RogueGunslinger]

You are arguing that something that costs $1 is free because it's inexpensive. You are wrong.
[/quote]

No, I wasn't.  Your inability to understand this has gone from from frustrating to amusing. You just couldn't help but to try and cram even more words down my throat. Hah.

[Lizzie]

Your bolded assertion isn't true Narf.

If I want to play the role of a person who works in a GMH as a crafter, there is no part of the subguilds that will make me play that role any better, codedly, than the mundane, ordinary Merchant main guild. It won't matter which subguild I pick, none of them will help me be a better crafter, because none of them have anything I'll need as a master crafter that I can't get from the main guild.

If I want to play the role of a Militia soldier, no subguild will let me play that (codedly) better than a mundane warrior main guild. There are also mundane subguilds I can select that will complement the warrior guild, without my having to revert to karma use.

The same is true for a ranger employed by a GMH as a hunter.

Remember - those magick subguilds can only help you if you don't mind risking being caught as a magicker, and GMHs and ALL "publically-acceptable" clans otehr than Oash do -not- hire magickers. So you'd have to hide it - which means you'd never be able to use it in the presence of your co-workers, or you'd have to get gemmed and get tossed out of the clan (or killed).

Sure you could pick a sneaky-type extended subguild for your ranger but it's not going to make you a better ranger, codedly. Merchant/sneaky-ext-subguild won't make you a better master crafter. And so on and so forth.

The main guilds that are still in existence, are the best at what they are. No subguild will make them better than that, if you choose to play the skillset as a whole rather than the sum of its parts.

I assure you it is.

1) An extended subguild could be used to get a skill your main guild gets with a higher maximum
2) An extended subguild could be used to get a better branch pattern than your main guild, allowing you to branch a normally difficult to acquire skill more easily
3) An extended subguild could be used to get a skill that is complimentary to your main guild (for instance a higher forage skill for your crafter so they can get their materials)

Main guilds don't start with everything they need to codedly fulfill their roles most often, and subguilds can help with that. Extended subguilds help more.

Finally, even if you absolutely do not care about any skill a subguild can give you, you can play a touched and get some sort of wonky benefit that might potentially help you in a non-skill related capacity.

Be careful with claims about something being useless. There's always someone out there that will have thought of something you didn't.

Edited to note that this is only barely related to my actual point as having the option to play an extended subguild will provide superior options even if they aren't used.

That's just flat out incorrect.

No matter what subguild or extended subguild or stat boost or skill boost you choose, when all is said and done, you will not have a MORE maxed-out [insert mundane main guild] than you would have if you hadn't picked any subguild at all. Main guilds provide the max cap. If a subguild provides a max-cap, it will provide the same max cap that you would've gotten anyway.

Yes, you will see clothworking on your master tailor extended subguild. But you could pick the non-karma-required mundane tailor subguild and see clothworking there too. AND - if you're playing a merchant-guild character, you'll master it whether you picked a master crafter subguild or not. AND - you will have branched it eventually whether you had any kind of crafting subguild or not.

I reiterate: There exists no subguild or extended subguild that will make your merchant-main-guild character any MORE of a merchant main-guild character than he would have been if you had not picked that subguild/extended subguild. They won't be better either. They'll max the skills faster. But those maxed skills will be the exact same maxed skills that you would've had anyway if you hadn't picked those subguilds.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Crafting skills up real fast on most racial wisdoms, for those of you not in that particular know, as well.

[whitt]

I won't be playing another character here once my current one dies.

The idea of investing another 100-150+ days played into a character that will be strictly and indefinitely inferior to almost every other character in the game doesn't appeal to me.

I'm late to the game, but I am curious.  Why would your next character be so limited? 

If you have no karma at all, you can spec app, now, for a concept that appeals to you while still playing your current character.  If you're still on this character 3-4 RL months from now?  You can spec app another, then another.  If/When the current character dies, just pick whichever pre-approved concept you want to role with at the time.  You'd have a library of approved apps just waiting.  If you have 1-2 karma you don't even need to follow the above process.

[Quell]

Edited: Wrong thread

[Narf]

Your bolded assertion isn't true Narf.

If I want to play the role of a person who works in a GMH as a crafter, there is no part of the subguilds that will make me play that role any better, codedly, than the mundane, ordinary Merchant main guild. It won't matter which subguild I pick, none of them will help me be a better crafter, because none of them have anything I'll need as a master crafter that I can't get from the main guild.

If I want to play the role of a Militia soldier, no subguild will let me play that (codedly) better than a mundane warrior main guild. There are also mundane subguilds I can select that will complement the warrior guild, without my having to revert to karma use.

The same is true for a ranger employed by a GMH as a hunter.

Remember - those magick subguilds can only help you if you don't mind risking being caught as a magicker, and GMHs and ALL "publically-acceptable" clans otehr than Oash do -not- hire magickers. So you'd have to hide it - which means you'd never be able to use it in the presence of your co-workers, or you'd have to get gemmed and get tossed out of the clan (or killed).

Sure you could pick a sneaky-type extended subguild for your ranger but it's not going to make you a better ranger, codedly. Merchant/sneaky-ext-subguild won't make you a better master crafter. And so on and so forth.

The main guilds that are still in existence, are the best at what they are. No subguild will make them better than that, if you choose to play the skillset as a whole rather than the sum of its parts.

I assure you it is.

1) An extended subguild could be used to get a skill your main guild gets with a higher maximum
2) An extended subguild could be used to get a better branch pattern than your main guild, allowing you to branch a normally difficult to acquire skill more easily
3) An extended subguild could be used to get a skill that is complimentary to your main guild (for instance a higher forage skill for your crafter so they can get their materials)

Main guilds don't start with everything they need to codedly fulfill their roles most often, and subguilds can help with that. Extended subguilds help more.

Finally, even if you absolutely do not care about any skill a subguild can give you, you can play a touched and get some sort of wonky benefit that might potentially help you in a non-skill related capacity.

Be careful with claims about something being useless. There's always someone out there that will have thought of something you didn't.

Edited to note that this is only barely related to my actual point as having the option to play an extended subguild will provide superior options even if they aren't used.

That's just flat out incorrect.

No matter what subguild or extended subguild or stat boost or skill boost you choose, when all is said and done, you will not have a MORE maxed-out [insert mundane main guild] than you would have if you hadn't picked any subguild at all. Main guilds provide the max cap. If a subguild provides a max-cap, it will provide the same max cap that you would've gotten anyway.

Yes, you will see clothworking on your master tailor extended subguild. But you could pick the non-karma-required mundane tailor subguild and see clothworking there too. AND - if you're playing a merchant-guild character, you'll master it whether you picked a master crafter subguild or not. AND - you will have branched it eventually whether you had any kind of crafting subguild or not.

I reiterate: There exists no subguild or extended subguild that will make your merchant-main-guild character any MORE of a merchant main-guild character than he would have been if you had not picked that subguild/extended subguild. They won't be better either. They'll max the skills faster. But those maxed skills will be the exact same maxed skills that you would've had anyway if you hadn't picked those subguilds.

Different people have different levels of creativity and understandings of the game. New players may think a role involves skills it doesn't need. Veteran players may be able to come up with uses for skills that you haven't thought of. I could tell you right now I can see a few applications of skills that you haven't thought of that would make your crafter better within their role. Maybe not in your eyes, but in mine.

Both will perceive an option for an extended subguild to be superior than not having that option.

Since this isn't about one person, but rather the population of Arm players as a whole I'm going to say that one person's perceptions of what skills a role can use aren't terribly relevant (mine or yours, we're both just one person). Some people might be able to play a role with nothing more than the analyze skill, but basing policy off that player is not going to lead to good policy. Basing policy off of how you as a singular individual would codedly use your skills in one specific role is equally inadvisable.

[SuchDragonWow]

If the argument is that any kind of non-magick subguild would make you a better crafter (or better anything, let's be real) than an actual guild, that assertion is incorrect, and couldn't stand on three legs if they were made of titanium.  I'd challenge anyone to illustrate with real examples how that would be so.

Maybe I missed the point of that argument, though, in all the verbiage.

[whitt]

If the argument is that any kind of non-magick subguild would make you a better crafter (or better anything, let's be real) than an actual guild, that assertion is incorrect, and couldn't stand on three legs if they were made of titanium.  I'd challenge anyone to illustrate with real examples how that would be so.

Maybe I missed the point of that argument, though, in all the verbiage.

I think the real argument is that the extended sub-guilds are better than their associated "normal" sub-guild.  So, all mundane sub-guilds should be available to all characters at character creation regardless of karma level so that all players are of mundane characters are on the same level of playing field.