Take a long time before responding to this poll.

[Kryos]

And if you decide to vote I really hope you do.  Read all of this.  Chew on it, grind it up on your brain if you want to vote and tease out your total position on it.  Consider *everything* that's happened.  Because I have an agenda with this, and it is a wickedly benevolent one.  And I've spent years chewing on it myself.  If you want to say I take odd joys in life, so be it.  

That agenda is that I am in firm belief that different players have different ways of enjoying a game, and like attracts like.  I have been great or passing friends with a few game playing, role playing types.  No one of them was exactly like me in how they found enjoyment in their gaming experience.  I believe that these behaviors can be reasonable classified and modeled.  But I do not want to go down that rabbit hole.  Because the vagaries of it aren't the point, the existence of diversity is.

What I fear, is that a reasonable percentage of people have lost some of their enjoyment.  And this is not an accusation made in anger or frustration, its an observation born of personal experience and digested over a long, long time and a lot of back and forth with people I think are smarter than I.  They beat me up below the belt when they could, and a few on the chin.  The idea came out bruised, but it came out on two feet.  So I'm giving it a nudge through this door.

This is not a reaction to the most recent change.  I've posted this elsewhere, so the abridged version:  I have been pro and con to aspects of all the various changes, seeing some as better, some as worse.   This is not a reaction to the other thread I made.  I just have this idea that if things were opened up to reach out to more types of player enjoyment, the game itself would be more robust an experience for the effort.  Its a complex view, and its a complex poll question to go with that.  If you participate, I hope you give it the gravitas it deserves.

Edit:  Missed an it.

[Desertman]

I just want to be clear.

Is the short version of this basically, "Has the game changed in the last five years to be more fun or less fun for you as a player?"?

[Jihelu]

When I first played in Tuluk a year ago, I haven't been around for five years so don't sue me, I thought it was the coolest thing ever.
Then Tuluk closed.


Then I took a break for a bit.
Then I found my 'calling rp' and have been having more fun. My complaints about magick users, my shitposting, all of that doesn't mean shit when I'm having fun in the game.
So it has gone up.

[Bogre]

Okay, so, in no particular order:

Mage aspects: - pretty damn cool. That's an add.
Elkros, Drov, Nilaz  *crycrycry* wish they weren't gone                             < mega add if they come back

Tuluk - You know, I loved it, but I can let it go. I don't necessarily miss not being able to play there too much.

Red Fang - Wanted to play one, but they got aced ICly. Sucks for them.
Dune Stalkers, other delf tribes / human tribes - I'm interested in them. Soh/Sun Runners are great, but I love exploring new roles/tribes. So same goes with the Jul Tavan, Anyali, other human tribes. I sort of feel the number is about right, but we don't always have to have the same ones open. Or maybe since Tuluk is closed we have wiggle room to open up more.

C-elf tribes: Jaxa Pah, miss it. I think there should be something c-elven to play.

Full sorcerors: Would sort of like to see them, as well as full elementalists.

Some of the Areas I think there are more new ones than old ones!

Gith/gladiators how long did we ask for this? definitely a plus. I'm super open to temp flavor roles, or allowing secondary temp characters for stuff.

Mastercrafts Yeah used to not be a thing

Traps WHY NOT TRAPS

Mini merchant houses, warehouses and shit neato keen

Mul and half-giant magickers I mean, why not? I shit my pants once when I heard a -rumor- that a mul I bumped into was a mage, back in my newbie days.

I don't know enough about the state of Allanaki houses or merchant guilds to state what's going on there.

I voted about even.

The loss of the three sub-elements is a huuuuge . But we've had a lot of stuff go in thats super cool. Build awesome sub-element-subs and I'd be clam happy.

[Kryos]

I just want to be clear.

Is the short version of this basically, "Has the game changed in the last five years to be more fun or less fun for you as a player?"?

Yes, but there's an important addition to that.  I'm asking, if you chose to vote, to divest yourself of any other agendas before clicking a button.  Don't vote one way or another because you like/hate me, like/hate the most recent changes, and so on.  Look at it in its own right.

Edit right after:  That's a lot of votes rapid style.  Not accusing, but . . . are you taking your time to mull it over?

[valeria]

As a prelude to a long, butthurt post (that I never actually posted) following the sorcerer change, I made an actual list of changes that added things and changes that subtracted things, in my opinion. Like the nerd I am, I combed through the change log archives and put things in one of three columns. So if I don't have to think very long about my answer it's because this is basically just updating work I've already done.

[Kryos]

As a prelude to a long, butthurt post (that I never actually posted) following the sorcerer change, I made an actual list of changes that added things and changes that subtracted things, in my opinion. Like the nerd I am, I combed through the change log archives and put things in one of three columns. So if I don't have to think very long about my answer it's because this is basically just updating work I've already done.

Legit.  Like I said, its not an accusation, just a plea for severity.

[burble]

I just want to be clear.

Is the short version of this basically, "Has the game changed in the last five years to be more fun or less fun for you as a player?"?

Yes, but there's an important addition to that.  I'm asking, if you chose to vote, to divest yourself of any other agendas before clicking a button.  Don't vote one way or another because you like/hate me, like/hate the most recent changes, and so on.  Look at it in its own right.

Edit right after:  That's a lot of votes rapid style.  Not accusing, but . . . are you taking your time to mull it over?

Yes I thought about it, past 5 years, extended subguilds. Love them. Don't want to play without them. Best thing ever. Super great. Thumbs up. Mega-wonderful. What more do you need?
Magic Users - don't care, confident everyone else will figure out what's best. Closing Tuluk - mixed. I don't see it as a permanent change though so Tuluk will rise again!
Anything else is too minor to bother with.

[Dar]

I actually like the recent changes.

Tuluk:
Tuluk's removal is being cried about so much. But in reality, a GOOD chunk of population disliked playing in Tuluk. A lot of people refused to play there. Some of those people are crying about it being removed 'now', even though they proclaimed how much it sucked 'then'.  Also, an important factor is that Tuluk is not removed. It's not nuked, it's not retconned. It's just closed for play. Tor is closed for play now as well. There is going to be a moment, when the plots of the dune hoppers exhaust themselves, when the population grows bigger, when the 'need' for an active player filled second city becomes clear. Hopefully by then, the Imms will rewrite the docs for Tuluk and they'll have it open for play. It'll be a clean fresh start. It'll be up to all those people who cried how shitty Tuluk was to make a character there and being the 'first' PCs, set the rhythm and style for new Tuluk once again.

Sorcerers:
Removal of Sorcerers and making them into a subguild that they were originally was a mistake in my opinion. I've said it from day one. But since then they've updated and altered the sorc's spell lists twice already, increasing them in number. Somehow I think that sooner or later (fueled by the tears and blood of those who tried being sorcs and then spammed the staff with how shitty it turned out to be), the sorcerer subguild will improve onto itself to become something awesome and deserving of 8 karma restriction. Possibly already have, I dont know what those recent updates were.

Red Fang. The love of my life was destroyed. From what I understand, it was done by player actions. I dont know details about it. Some say it was rail roaded, some say it was legit. All I know is that I was one of two people who created the first Red Fang Camp. At first, the staff looking over RF refused to help, saying that the reason there is no camp, is because congregating the RF in one spot will cause its extinction. I chose to ignore those warnings and worked on creating the camp anyway. I died, others took over, eventually RF camp got created. RF camp allowed for accumulation of immense power of the RF. The Immense power of the RF made RF a "real" problem. RF being a "real" problem caused RF to grow extinct. While I am extremely sad about it. I can at the very least sort of understand why it happened and how. I also know that if I really put my mind to it, I could just recreate the badassery of RF, except it'd be humans. It'll take over a year of my life spent on a game though, so someone else will have to do it. (awwh, excuses excuses).

Dune Stalkers were destroyed by Soh Lannah Kah. Pure player effort.

Elkros/Drov/Nilaz:
Couldnt careless about Elkros. Totally empty guild in my opinion.  Drov and Nilaz are my favorite mage guilds and I usually dislike mages. Buuuut ... imms are saying they will somehow trinkle back into the gameplay. So there's literally not enough data to make any what so ever judgement.

Elementalist Subguild:

Much like when I knew the sorcerer subguilds made sorcerers unplayably too weak from the day one. I suspect the elementalist subguilds are going to make them faaar faaaaaaaaar too powerful. Barring experienced Whirans, a skilled ranger had 'some' chance to slay any mage of any skill that caused enough trouble to provoke such act of bravery.  Now? ... I imagine some skill combinations and I the sociological consequences of this change. I am foreseeing a shock troop of gemmed 'superheroes', fighting a rag tag group of rogue 'villains', while Templars/Militia are afraid to peek their noses out.  This might be how theme should be regarding magick fear. But in the end, those superheroes will begin to be more valued then the militia.  But once again ... the staff might still be tinkering with it and let's call this a beta testing year. And also, the sociological consequences are entiiiiiireeeeeely in the playerbase hands. Dont want mages to get more accepted? Dont freaking accept them. Even ... if they are, your only way of combatting forces that are waiting for you beyond the walls.  Either way, not enough data to make a judgement.

Mini Merchant Houses:
Those are ... hard. But I never tried to make one. So I dont know how well that works out. I like how you need nobility support. Nobility needs more tools of leverage to get commoners to do their bidding. Bravo.

Jaxa Pah:
Unfortunately Jaxa Pah is gimped. I loooooooooooooove Jaxa Pah. I love it. I totally hate Kanosh. What's a point of a role that by theme should not converse, participate in society, make noises, and just train/wait for jobs/look scary. I think it began well, but then got altered on the fly as things began to unfold with real life players playing, and ... it's just wonky now. Add the whole trust issues of elves, they're not guild that recruits people. Either way though, they're not destroyed. They're closed for play. They can be opened yet. Hopefully with some docs polishing.


In conclusion. I like the changes. Doesnt even matter so much what they are. Fact is, the staff are pretty impressively trying to improve the game. They're not perfect. They'll tinker and alter, and adjust, and improve. But they've been soooo fucking prolific the past while. I'm impressed.

[whitt]

Adds:
 Minor Merchant Houses
 Extended Subguilds
 Magickers as Subguilds
 Consolidated Playerbase
 Rooftops
 Starter Shops

Losses:
 Full Sorcerers - meh.  I don't know that is impacts my ability to enjoy the game at all.
 Full Magickers - I do see this as a subtraction, I also think maybe this isn't done yet and full magickers will come back.  I'm willing to wait and see.

[Refugee]

I voted removed because of the closing of Tuluk and the ending of the active battling between Tuluk and Nak, both of which I enjoyed a lot.  But I feel obligated to say:

There's been a lot of changes that I'm pretty ambivalent about.  Mostly because I've not played in those areas/roles.

I'm honestly pretty happy with the game as it is now, and I was happy with it as it was.  I'm not a big fan of sweeping world changes (maybe because I play long-lived PCs, I dunno.  Maybe because I'm old and it's harder to adapt.).   But I can roll with them.

The only thing that was ruining it for me, that had me looking for a new game, has been gone for months and I'm happy.  Everything else is fine!   

[Thunkkin]

I feel as if the primary things that most impact my enjoyment of the game were already in place well before five years ago. Those things maaaaay have changed, but I haven't had the opportunity to really play the right role to find out. I love the extended subguild changes, though. There are so many concepts available now that weren't when I started playing in 2008. I had to spec app an assassin back then with the ability to get master cooking -- and that required losing TWO skills in exchange. I feel as if the general/broad changes to the game have been very positive while I'm much more ambivalent or negative about certain specific stuff that has been removed.

Overall, I voted that the changes have increased my enjoyment, since the sum total has resulted in a greater variety of viable character concepts. Most of my gripes/concerns about the game have to do with my perception of glass ceilings, unstated limitations on player choices, etc., but yet I'm not certain about the validity of the concerns because I don't have the time to test them and things seem to be changing in that regard, too.

Edit: Oh. I voted "other" at first but assumed I could change my answer. Apparently not. So I'm in the other category, but leaning toward increased my enjoyment.

[Narf]

I'm a big fan of code tweaks and trying out new mechanisms. My characters don't tend to be part of large, world spanning things and I almost never willingly engage with magic.

Given this very specific filter, changes on Arm have been overwhelmingly positive for me personally.

That said, I am worried about this recent change as I think it's going to make magic much more ubiquitous. I'm 100% behind making mages more playable and fun even though I don't personally play them, but I'd rather do so without completely overlapping the mundane world. I would have preferred if mages were made more playable by giving them new roles to fill rather than letting them more easily play in existing roles that were previously mostly mundane territory.

For positives though, the new subguilds, the changes to the helpfiles that made their capabilities more clear, the added areas, the revitalization of the tablelands, and even the change to sleight of hand make up a slew of positive changes that more than make up for my objections.

[Rokal]

I have only played for two years.

My first character was a Tuluki, i experienced the closure of Tuluk on them.

Ever since that character, my character lives have been very fast paced, and rather short.

But i've not stopped having fun, but I also hope to have a long lived character like my very first character again.

But all the changes up to now have upped my excitement for the future of this game, because as a player, theres SO MUCH more for me to  still discover.

I embrace the changes and just plunge right head on it, because the game has been fun for me from the get go - be it me playing some nobody dung sweeper who gets swept up into a plot unexpectedly.

or some adventuerous warrior who finds them self in trouble at every turn.

I love this game for its RP and immersion, there are favorite roles im comfortable with, but my favorite part of it is how it time and time again puts me outside my comfort zone and i experience another angle of RP.

I come from High-fantasy adventure, anime-inspired, action inspired roleplays, my first 8 months on armageddon were a HUGE experience to me, and it really changed how i saw roleplay and writing as a whole.

to me, it call comes down to having fun Rping out my characters and ensuring the other characters im Rping are having just as much fun.

I want to make stories. Make plots. Maybe even make history.

Even if I fail, I have fun trying.

So sure, maybe only have played two years (Close to it, will be upon september)

But i'm totally excited for the future, and I embrace change, I mean - this is the first change, I know not everyone will be happy, but I sure am, and im going to do my damndest best to liven the RP up for everyone, be it im playing a mundane, a mage, or anything else.

So, I guess, from a rather new players perspective:
This is a exciting time to be a new player, with new things and changes coming, and it only motivates me to play MORE.

[Lizzie]

Most of the additions don't really affect me positively or negatively, in any direct way as it applies to my own RP of my own characters. They might be affecting me indirectly - like maybe my PC's assassin can now have more fun assassinating my PC than previously. But I'm oblivious to that. Many of the additions are nice, but I was having fun before they were added so they're more of a bonus than they are a feature, for my own personal enjoyment.

Most of the deletions I'm fairly neutral about, but some of them I'm adamantly opposed to.

So for me, the "unfun" of the deletions massively outweigh the "fun" additions.

[James de Monet]

I voted "added".  I lost some character concepts I'd been holding onto for a while with some of the changes (Tuluki bartender, Elkrosian, Nilazi, Drovian) and letting those go wasn't enjoyable, but for me, it goes beyond the guild/subguild changes.

I love flavor roles.  I love the return of staff-run plots.  I love vertical mobility spots being opened.  I love new areas.  I love being able to bury treasure.  I love new mounts!  I love warehouses being made available.  I love new apartments being added.  I love NPCs being updated.  I love mastercrafts (though those go back more than 5 years) and new gear.  I love player-run clans.  I love the idea of brew getting fixed and beverage mastercrafts!  I LOVE extended subguilds.

I understand that some people feel their ability to achieve power or notoriety has been handicapped.  I can kind of agree.  But at the same time, it seems like staff have squashed those options outward even as they may have been truncating them a little.  It seems like there is so much more lateral mobility and possibility.  And thus, the ability not to become the next Plainsman doesn't faze me too much.  The jury is still out on elemental subs until I have a chance to try one, but I'm not expecting to dislike them.

[SuchDragonWow]

By removing the most extreme options of power on the game, I find it adds to the game to bring the dynamic closer to the middle.  I hope there is a limiting process to playing karma options that makes the powerful roles even more rare, and pits mundane characters against each other in a fight for survival.

More mystery, more risk, more intrigue.  Less god-kings, less wombo-combos, less plotbenders.

[MeTekillot]

My main means of enjoyment (besides humor wrought from absurd IC situations) is interacting with or being high-power roles with definite WOW factor in their abilities. Considering the glass ceiling and continued splintering of player-available magickal power, I would say there have been more removed than added.

[Kyviantre]

Not happy.  In my tally, I have lost my most interesting future concepts, and the things on the 'additions' list that I have experienced so far are not wowing me (they feel like minor 'nice to have' add-ons to bolt onto other concepts, rather than ground shattering additions that make me excited and get my character creation juices flowing).

I have one last character concept in my bank of ideas that I am still eager to play.  Considering the changes in the game are still rolling out, I am concerned that it too will be gone.  The temptation to retire my current character just to get that concept in now, to avoid that risk, is worryingly high.  I don't like retiring, and typically have to be backed into a corner (so far in 14 years of mudding, I have retired three characters on three separate games, the one on Arm was a throw-away concept I made to try a new area - zero players apparently in my timezone in that area (with a social-heavy character) + a request to fill a role nixed it), so this is something that is bothering me.  That my enjoyment of the game is at the point where it is so squashed that I am considering retirement, is unpleasantly upsetting.  Hence my vote that more damage is being done to my enjoyment than new things being added increases my excitement to play.

[Vwest]

I wrote a huge wall of text about this.

I've decided not to post it because I'm pretty sure I'd just get banned again.

[Jihelu]

I wrote a huge wall of text about this.

I've decided not to post it because I'm pretty sure I'd just get banned again.

As long as you don't shit talk anyone no one will think bad of you fam

[Rathustra]

Mul and half-giant magickers I mean, why not? I shit my pants once when I heard a -rumor- that a mul I bumped into was a mage, back in my newbie days.

While muls are still a no-go, half-giants can still be elementally touched!

[RogueGunslinger]

By FAR more has added to my enjoyment. Even some of the things they've taken, like Tuluk, away have added to my enjoyment.


Sorcs I will never play.

Magicker-subs are a great addition.

I don't like that Elk, Nils, and Drovs are gone though.

[Patuk]

Hmm. Do we count strictly coded additions/substractions in this regard? The bury code is a nice addition for example, but then it's not really controversial. What I think you're asking for here is the sheer work on things such as clans and guilds.

[Culinary Critic]

I have been thinking about this a lot recently, as a general idea.  And my answer is a lot simpler than most posted here (absolutely no offence to anyone).  It's kind of complicated to explain though.

I'm a little Aspergery.  Perhaps more than a little.  If I were a kid now, I'd probably be diagnosed as on the spectrum (we joke, when I'm having a bad day, that my syndrome is flaring up).  I don't naturally get a lot of the simple social cues that take place a gazillion times in an average day.  As a result (or perhaps because I don't like people a whole lot) I don't have friends.  Don't read this as "not many friends".  I have none.  I have a spouse, some people at work I chat with both at work and very, very occasionally outside work, and some people who are "couple friends" who I'd never see again if I weren't married.  That's about it.

My wife (and a bunch of other people) have asked me why I play this game, because they just don't get it.  Here's the answer I give them.

"This game is how I interact with my friends.".  Kind of weird, yes, I know.  But the social aspect of the game is pretty important to me, and the honest to goodness role playing...fantastic.  Just because we choose to interact in the guise of other people doesn't matter.

I like indis a lot (probably my syndrome acting up).  I like having my character do things on their own, but it's only a part of living their life.  The best times are when something interesting happens with another character.  Where this happens (though I do miss Tuluk), what guild my character is, what their race is, whether they master craft or not, where to bury things...none of it is that important to me.    The world and the people in it are.

So my vote is...about even.

And thank you to all you players out there for making the game fun.

Edited to add:  Sorry if I've posted this before.  I've typed this out a number of times and backed out without posting.

[Kryos]

Percentages at a reasonable N are about what I expected, and thank you so far to all who have posted/voted.  I imagined it'd be about a 70/30 split or so, and was chewing on the idea if I could somehow tease back some of the people who've left due to vision of change frustrations to participate what would it look like?  Its speculative, but would it be closer to a 60/40? But I think 70/30 is still pretty hefty when you consider things like that.  Like seems to be attracting like, and there seems to be diversity represented in those who still play and enjoy the game despite player enjoyment decreasing or being roughly balanced with changes over time.  

Patuk, coded is not the only change I was looking at when asking this question:  all the changes.  Including things like clan caps and other non-code-enforced changes, such as adding new ranks in clans as another example.  Policy as much as code.  Both have huge impacts on player enjoyment.

So, to round back to the original thrust of the agenda:  what do you think of expanding interest in player enjoyment diversity as a means of making the game experience more robust?  To get a notion about what I mean in this question, perhaps some examples.  You read phrases being tossed around on the boards about different types of player behavior (not character behavior exclusively).  Examples might be 'tressy tress rp' or 'twinking/skill grinding' or 'nooblar' and so on.  I've always entertained these were expressions of frustration regarding the diversity of player enjoyment types.  Someone who likes mucking up things with coded skills and getting into coded fights and so on might say, 'those damn tressy tress are ruining my game!'.  Vice versa, so on and so forth.  

So what if policy and coded changes were looked at with an eye for balancing this sort of thing?  As one of those guys who likes code, and also likes to do 'things' in game, I personally have lost a lot of recognized player enjoyment factors.  Some shoring has happened too, mind you, I'm not painting doom and gloom here.  But overall, yes, a number of real big options for enjoyment open to me then are now gone, and I do feel far less has been opened to mitigate those loses.  

That being said, I suspect those who enjoy other aspects the game offers might find a lot of cool new opportunities in the code and policy changes(and I don't begrudge them that)!  However, if when taking a piece away, its value and what it represents to player enjoyment was measured and another means of supporting that aspect was plugged back in, don't you think that would be a lot more pleasing for many?  Enticing for new, old alike?  Soothing for when a change hurts?  Something to look forward to?

[Desertman]

The vast majority of people who play the game were not represented in this poll.

This poll only reflects the opinions of those people who feel strongly enough about changes in the first place (positively or negatively) to post at all and be part of the poll.

As such you have to consider that the "About Even" or "Added" categories would in fact be MUCH higher than you are seeing.

Why those categories?

Because in general when someone gets upset about something THAT is when they feel the necessity to be part of expressing their opinion and/or trying to create change.

You have a huge portion of the playerbase here who is not represented who:

A) Are happy with the way things are and so don't care to even be part of this/aren't looking at it to begin with.
B) Are not displeased enough to really care enough to try and express their disappointment if they have any.
C) Have already gotten so upset they left the game and don't even care about the game anymore/know this poll even exists.

I personally find it telling and extremely inspiring that a 70/30 split of the people who actually care enough to post care to post in the positive/not entirely negative.

Considering the recent "shaking of things up" I would have thought the number of people posting in the negative would have been much higher since this is exactly the sort of avenue they would be looking for to express their disappointment.

In conclusion, all this tells me is that a huge portion of the playerbase doesn't feel affected enough to even care enough to vote, and of the very small fraction that do, even that very small fraction feels good or not very upset about it in the majority.

[James de Monet]

Don't forget:

D) Don't frequent the GDB.

It's easy for us to forget such players, but I've noticed that staff seem to have a better handle on just how many people play but don't post.

[Nergal]

By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

[perfecto]

I voted Added to solely based on how much work has been done over the guild, subguild and extended.  Sure some factors have been removed and made becoming freakishly twinked out a little harder to accomplish (which isn't a bad thing) but how they've made it so we can have much more well rounded characters is truly awesome.  Its also a hell of a lot harder to guild sniff than ever before, leaving your characters more options to roleplay their lives.  Even with the changes to mage guilds you'd have to agree that a warrior-krathi has a much better chance at survival than either a warrior or a krathi in their previous standings.  Just my opinion at the moment, but we shall see how things unfold.  Also welcome back Gith! Now where are those rouge halflings hiding...

[RogueGunslinger]

By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

[hyzhenhok]

It's not a random sample, though. It's a self-selected sample of players who actively monitor or participate on the GDB.

That said, I don't see a convincing argument as to why these self-selecters would be biased compared to the general playerbase. Being more likely to participate here doesn't seem to be relevant to the question asked. Especially if you're trying to separate GDB participation from game participation.

[Rokal]

By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

-hi5-

[Narf]

By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

They aren't representative of the whole. Any statistician will tell you that.

They can still be pretty relevant though, depending on what you want to suss out of them.

[Desertman]

By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

I'm not saying it isn't applicable.

I'm saying I view it as a positive as opposed to a negative.

Roughly 25% is a pretty good sample. That 25% would be comprised of those players who care enough/feel affected enough either way to vote to begin with.

I'm speculating that the remaining 75% who aren't voting are likely comprised of players who, "Aren't pissed off enough to be angry enough to voice an opinion about their anger/disappointment.". I feel that makes sense personally.

I would guess MOST people who are truly upset are following the GDB and are actively voting about how they are upset. I feel we probably got "most of them" in this poll from that batch....and still it's only 19 people out of the playerbase.

That's my theory based on data that can't really be confirmed because if people don't vote, I can only speculate as to why. But speculate I will.  

[RogueGunslinger]

By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

They aren't representative of the whole. Any statistician will tell you that.

They can still be pretty relevant though, depending on what you want to suss out of them.

How is it not representative?  Maybe I'm using the wrong word? Reflective? What's the word for "encompases a large enough portion of something to be indicative of the whole"


Edit2: Oh, indicative IS probably the word I wanted.

[Desertman]

I guess I could also note that of the 19 people who are viewing this as a negative those 19 would likely be veteran players who have access to the guilds that are being affected as of late. (Players with some karma behind them.)

They would also be players who have of course played for 5+ years. (If they are true to the poll.)

I would tend to give their opinions more weight personally than the "masses". I'm biased towards veterans.

I'm not dismissing their opinions, I'm just trying to weigh the numbers in my mind.

[Giled]

One day I'll be enough for a veteran for D-man to value my opinion.

New objective!

[Desertman]

One day I'll be enough for a veteran for D-man to value my opinion.

New objective!

I dare you to set this to your objective in-game.

(Do not do this please. Staff likely wouldn't like either of us for it.)

[shadeoux]

One day I'll be enough for a veteran for D-man to value my opinion.

New objective!

I dare you to set this to your objective in-game.

(Do not do this please. Staff likely wouldn't like either of us for it.)

Done

[James de Monet]

How is it not representative?  Maybe I'm using the wrong word? Reflective? What's the word for "encompases a large enough portion of something to be indicative of the whole"


Edit2: Oh, indicative IS probably the word I wanted.

He isn't saying the poll isn't good enough to tell us something.  He's just saying that the poll numbers are not guaranteed to be the same as if we actually had forced the whole pbase to respond.

It's like lemonade.  If you drink 25% of the glass, but don't stir it first, even though you drank a fair amount of it, you aren't guaranteed to have gotten an accurate representation of the flavor, because your entire sample shared certain characteristics (like being watery, or light) that made it float up to the sampling point. 

In this case, the entire sample shared the characteristics of reading and replying to the GDB.  As Hyzhenhok said, that probably isn't directly related to their feelings about the changes, so the sample is probably good enough.  I would probably say it is suggestive of the whole.

[Centurion]

I voted removed because of Tuluk closing. Thats affected my enjoyment in Arm more than anything. Also drovians being removed, and finally the fact that the elite branches of the houses have been closed. There has been plenty of great additions though.

[Dar]

Elite branches, you mean special ops of GMH? Outriders, falcons, etc?

[Fathi]

As an off-peak and casual player, the game has grown by leaps and bounds for a player of my type. Many of the big changes and a lot of the smaller ones, both in the world and in the code, have made life much better for casual players than it used to be.

It's going back a little further than five years, but I remember playing a solo off-peak PC in the southern desert a few years ago:

no non-lethal animals to hunt
very little variety in desert rooms
no way to sell sifted spice unless a Kurac PC was online
merchants that never had coin due to no PCs around buying things (before vnpc sales)
merchants that wouldn't buy half of what you could scavenge
very limited stuff you could forage
rooms outside the gates NOT being quit rooms
starting levels of contact skill that meant you HAD to practice on NPCs all the time
very few helpful subguild options for mages who didn't want to live in the city
needing a special app to have a different starting accent than where your character spawned
'direction sense' in sandstorms only available to rangers
no way to raise certain skills (fletchery etc.) with southern-only materials
no way to get certain equipment on chargen without going to places that might be OOC for your character (hello starter shops)

Literally all of that is fixed now.

Some of the clans/areas that were closed were a bummer to lose, but for the type of player I am, the game has never been more enjoyable than it is now.

I can't describe how grateful I am that it's so much easier now to just roll up a PC and play the goddamn game compared to how it was.

Due to the hours I play, I tend to play a lot of solo wanderer type PCs, and a few years ago I would have told you my options to enjoy the game were basically ranger, Whiran, or desert elf. A shitload has changed to make that no longer the case.

[Centurion]

Elite branches, you mean special ops of GMH? Outriders, falcons, etc?

Yeah. GMH groups like Outriders, Falcons, J'kaar. Noble branches like Scorpions, Wyverns, Elites, and so on.

[Vox]

As an off-peak and casual player, the game has grown by leaps and bounds for a player of my type. Many of the big changes and a lot of the smaller ones, both in the world and in the code, have made life much better for casual players than it used to be.

It's going back a little further than five years, but I remember playing a solo off-peak PC in the southern desert a few years ago:

no non-lethal animals to hunt
very little variety in desert rooms
no way to sell sifted spice unless a Kurac PC was online
merchants that never had coin due to no PCs around buying things (before vnpc sales)
merchants that wouldn't buy half of what you could scavenge
very limited stuff you could forage
rooms outside the gates NOT being quit rooms
starting levels of contact skill that meant you HAD to practice on NPCs all the time
very few helpful subguild options for mages who didn't want to live in the city
needing a special app to have a different starting accent than where your character spawned
'direction sense' in sandstorms only available to rangers
no way to raise certain skills (fletchery etc.) with southern-only materials
no way to get certain equipment on chargen without going to places that might be OOC for your character (hello starter shops)

Literally all of that is fixed now.

Some of the clans/areas that were closed were a bummer to lose, but for the type of player I am, the game has never been more enjoyable than it is now.

I can't describe how grateful I am that it's so much easier now to just roll up a PC and play the goddamn game compared to how it was.

Due to the hours I play, I tend to play a lot of solo wanderer type PCs, and a few years ago I would have told you my options to enjoy the game were basically ranger, Whiran, or desert elf. A shitload has changed to make that no longer the case.

All of this. Fathi is my new spirit animal.

[ShaLeah]

Codewise I think we've grown beautifully in most areas.

I'm sad to say though that this is definitely NOT the same Armageddon I came to love and be addicted to.
The tag line just doesn't exist in the same way. 


I read about a lot of the changes and it makes me not wanna play.

The world, while more interesting in a way, is just too survivable. There are way too many changes to magickers in particular, changes that I really disagree with in sorcery and nilazi practice. Two of the most terrifying guilds gone, just like that.

It changes your play, your character, when you're no longer "as scared" to log on.

If near death, almost getting to do vile things, friendship and trust intrigue you... Follow me to Zalanthas.

'Scuze me while I brace for the backlash.

[Lizzie]

For well over 40% of the respondents of the poll, the additions do NOT outweigh the subtractions. I consider that statistically significant.

I feel that the expected, wanted, desired result would be more like -

5% feel the additions do -not- outweigh the subtractions
15% feel they are more or less equal
5% are ambivalent; that the changes don't affect them enough to care one way or another
75% are benefiting directly or indirectly and are totally feeling the positives over the negatives.

[Fathi]

For well over 40% of the respondents of the poll, the additions do NOT outweigh the subtractions. I consider that statistically significant.

I feel that the expected, wanted, desired result would be more like -

5% feel the additions do -not- outweigh the subtractions

With this playerbase you are never ever going to get just 5% of people disliking a change/changes unless it's a bugfix that fixes lag or game crashes.

Not saying we're all a bunch of whiners, but I remember player backlash against stuff that most people these days talk about as being universally beneficial/cool. The game just leads to strong feelings and super divisive opinions.

[Vwest]

We really are a bunch of whiners, though.

[Evilone]

People love new additions, especially here. I always loved when I'd hear a new patch in WOW was coming and some new raid was opening up. Then I'd read the fine print and oh another warrior nerf, boo. Being able to play a main guild, and then have a magicker with some spells as just a subguild is a great addition, but the fine print is the removal of full elementalists AND the removal of certain guilds that have existed for a long time. Ouch. That's a huge nerf. I'd vote to have full elementalists still available, but if you MUST get rid of Nilaz, Elkrosian, and Drovian because their spell trees are game breaking, tweak them and then bring them in as the semi-elementalist subguild type at least, please.

[Dan]

I came back to the game and have dived right back in, loving it. The changes have me interested and engaged.