I've Lost Some Trust

[Kryos]

First and foremost, I'm going to clearly state this is not framed as an attack, but is me expressing my opinion using what knowledge base and experience I have.  If anyone else decides to post in this thread, I hope they keep that frame of mind intact, not just for me, but against any and all who participate.  And now on to the meat of the matter.

I have spent some time in both Academia doing grant based research projects, and in the corporate world developing solutions.  Both have a term called stakeholders.  Stakeholders are a pretty big deal, as they are the ones who hold you accountable for your actions, decisions, and final product delivered.  In fact, the reality of having stakeholders is so fundamental to an industry such as software development, there's a whole subdivision of thought devoted to optimizing the process of creating deliverables with stakeholders in mind.  Agile, Spiral and the like being a few examples of these development techniques.

Who are the stakeholders in Armageddon?  I'd say there's three.  The owner, the staff, and the players.  The first two being stakeholders should be obvious.  The existence of the third stakeholder I think is proven by the simple understanding that if no one plays or enjoys your game, you do not have one.  I feel as if a number of actions taken by staff, and presumably the owner, as of late have been without any interface, survey, or querying interest in the third stakeholder, the players.

Three prime examples of this are three large scale changes to player experience, modified without consultation or interface with the player base.  First, was the removal of the sorcerer option from the game.  Something I had been waiting years, nearly a decade, at a chance to experience.  This change had me so incensed that I shut down, stopped talking to the boards, and even pulled away from the game for a while after letting it simmer.  Other things contributed to this as well, the second and earlier example being the removal of Hlum nobles.  The perception, regardless of reality, is that staff had decided to systematically remove options I enjoyed, anticipated, and craved from the game one by one.  Over time, positive perception of attitudes and the fact that I very much like role playing drew me back.  And things seemed well.

Then the removal of magick guilds was announced with no forewarning or consultation again.  I am probably more incensed than I was with the previous example, however, a lack of communication solves nothing.  So this time, I have chosen to speak my mind.

These kinds of sweeping changes to the base of the game we all play, unannounced and not discussed cripple my trust that the thing I enjoy will continue being the thing I enjoy.  Certainly, changes can and should be made.  Change itself is not bad, and not all changes will be appreciated by everyone.  But the core problem is we have no voice in change.  

If I have no voice in change, or my voice does not matter in the slightest, I cannot bring myself to trust those making changes.  None the less, I'm willing to keep an open mind.  Maybe there is a reasonable basis for this.  

How do you feel?

Edits for a little cleanup on typos or grammar.

[Jihelu]

It's a big change.

I agree with the change, but only because I want magic subguilds.
Something like sorcerer however...
I wasn't around to have ever played one, but I think having a class that is 'straight magic I'm here to do magick hey did I mention magic' Is perfectly fine.


But then people cry low fantasy and I throw up internally or something.

Though you could probably throw a complaint in towards staff though whether or not anything would change probably not. Maybe you'll get a paragraph thats reassuring.

[Asmoth]

Wow...

You guys are reading WAY too much into this.

I didn't like the sorcerer change at all initially.  But I didn't write a book report on why it's a shitty decision and make allusions to staff not caring what people think.

Seriously folks, chill out a minute, I don't even think ONE account has been approved for this yet, it just happened hours ago.  You're all doom and glooming it before anything even happened.

[RogueGunslinger]

Their explanation makes perfect sense to me. Everyone would be storing their characters to play the full magickers if they were told beforehand. It would definitely have dragged the quality of the game down.

I'd like to think staff are capable of changing a decision or meeting the player base half-way with some amendments after they have revealed their decision though. If they can(and they have) then why does it matter if we're told beforehand?

[MeTekillot]

He's not gloom and dooming about anything. He's saying he doesn't see how this change was discussed or ran by player approval before it was made. We can read as much as we want into anything we want. It's a game we enjoy. We're going to talk about significant changes to it. I'd say you should try to see it from our point of view, but you've demonstrated time and time again that you are wholly unable of experiencing empathy. That may seem like a flame, but it is not, so please don't take it that way. I know what kind of person you are, Asmoth, so I will try to illustrate it to you. Please consider the following:

You like to eat chocolate chip cookies. The factory that makes chocolate chip cookies has changed them to white chocolate chip, and you can no longer get normal chocolate chips. You do not dislike white chocolate, but you also really liked normal chocolate. They did not mention they were going to do this before they did. How does that make you feel?

[Kryos]

He's not gloom and dooming about anything. He's saying he doesn't see how this change was discussed or ran by player approval before it was made. We can read as much as we want into anything we want. It's a game we enjoy. We're going to talk about significant changes to it. I'd say you should try to see it from our point of view, but you've demonstrated time and time again that you are wholly unable of experiencing empathy. That may seem like a flame, but it is not, so please don't take it that way. I know what kind of person you are, Asmoth, so I will try to illustrate it to you. Please consider the following:

You like to eat chocolate chip cookies. The factory that makes chocolate chip cookies has changed them to white chocolate chip, and you can no longer get normal chocolate chips. You do not dislike white chocolate, but you also really liked normal chocolate. They did not mention they were going to do this before they did. How does that make you feel?

I am indeed not dooming and glooming, nor am I making a redundant topic about the magick changes.  Appreciate the understanding.

[Rokal]

I can completely understand how the OP, Kyros, feels about this.

but all I can say to the OP: Don't just like, give up.

This is the first (Second, technically) of many changes to come, and its bound to be changed more as things go on.

Armageddon MUD is in a period of serious change, and its going to be a long time before the dust settles.

[Asmoth]

He's not gloom and dooming about anything. He's saying he doesn't see how this change was discussed or ran by player approval before it was made. We can read as much as we want into anything we want. It's a game we enjoy. We're going to talk about significant changes to it. I'd say you should try to see it from our point of view, but you've demonstrated time and time again that you are wholly unable of experiencing empathy. That may seem like a flame, but it is not, so please don't take it that way. I know what kind of person you are, Asmoth, so I will try to illustrate it to you. Please consider the following:

You like to eat chocolate chip cookies. The factory that makes chocolate chip cookies has changed them to white chocolate chip, and you can no longer get normal chocolate chips. You do not dislike white chocolate, but you also really liked normal chocolate. They did not mention they were going to do this before they did. How does that make you feel?

I am not offended or upset, no flaming detected.

However, in your scenario, I go, "Shit, I liked those cookies!  But these are good too." and that's the end of it.

[Kryos]

I can completely understand how the OP, Kyros, feels about this.

but all I can say to the OP: Don't just like, give up.

This is the first (Second, technically) of many changes to come, and its bound to be changed more as things go on.

Armageddon MUD is in a period of serious change, and its going to be a long time before the dust settles.

I am old enough now that I rarely go into kneejerk reactions unless the situation demands them.  But I am, and I used the word in its full clout, dismayed.

[Lizzie]

On the cookie analogy - which is actually a good one.

It doesn't matter to me that I like white chocolate chip cookies. What matters, is that I bought those cookies because they were milk chocolate. That was what attracted me to their package at the supermarket, that's why I bought those chocolate chip cookies, as opposed to someone else's chocolate chip cookies. Because I liked THOSE chocolate chip cookies.

The company has just eliminated the flavor that made me want to eat their cookies in the first place. If I wanted white chocolate chip cookies, I'd buy from the baker that makes a particular white chocolate chip cookie that I already know I enjoy, that I buy when I'm in the mood for white chocolate chip cookies.

But now - now I ALSO have to go elsewhere for milk chocolate chip cookies, because this company has decided that my enjoyment of their milk chocolate chip cookies no longer matters.

[FantasyWriter]

In a gradually dwindling market (MUDs, in this case), It is a very risky business venture to tell even 5% of your market that we are no longer going to serve you niche, so that we may better serve the 95%'s wishes.

[LauraMars]

Yeah, I definitely get why some people would be upset by this. Change is upsetting, especially when it's a change to something that you were used to and enjoyed. I'm not as much of a skill-focused player as a lot of you so I also understand this is a hard blow to those that really really love the skills aspect of the game.

If they split my precious pickpocket up into a bunch of thief subguilds I would probably be annoyed for awhile. Pickpockets are my armageddon comfort class.

But I think I'd also sort of be curious to experiment with new guild/subguild combinations and find a new playstyle I enjoy.

Armageddon's guilds have remained the same for a long, long, long time. Shaking things up like this adds a lot of interest for me to experiment with new concepts and role opportunities.

I'd encourage those who are dismayed to look at it as an opportunity for new and interesting memories rather than a squelching of any potential future fun.

[Asmoth]

In a gradually dwindling market (MUDs, in this case), It is a very risky business venture to tell even 5% of your market that we are no longer going to serve you niche, so that we may better serve the 95%'s wishes.

You don't pay to play here.

This isn't a business.

You are still overreacting sir.

[Nergal]

Staff are not obligated to check and make sure that players unanimously like every change we're planning before we work it into the game, and it's difficult to take feedback on this particular change seriously when literally only one player has tried the change so far and other players are twisting staff commentary to mean something else.

If you feel that a change to the game is driving you to take a break, or quit, then do it.

If you stop yourself and consider that that might be an over-reaction before you try out the change, then more power to you.

Ultimately, this is a game and we hope the players have fun playing it. As staff, we're going to continue to work on it and modernize it. When it's appropriate to ask players for suggestions before a change, we will (and have in the past for myriad other things).

[Pale Horse]

I am both happy and upset at that cookie allegory.

I am happy because it seems, to me and my feelings, to fit and be easily explainable.

I am upset because now I want chocolate-chip cookies..and I've already had a large meal and can't eat anymore, but I have this craving for cookies 


I, too, am a bit miffed at the changes and elimination of some of my favorite guilds.  Someone messed with my cheese!  Stop moving my cheese!!

After my initial emotional feelings settle, I think I will be having some fun with the combinations this has opened up....at least, that is, until the as-for-now unannounced and unknown changes to mundane skills goes into effect.  I'll sum up my reaction to this when it comes out, now:

More options, yay! 

..My options aren't as "extensive" as the skill trees they once were...I can deal with that!  Options, yay!

..Even more and strange combinations..I'm so lost..

They chopped up XXX and made XXX and XXX out of it!?  But I liked the skill bundle it once was!!

..Okay, it's here to stay and it's growing on me.

*cough, cough*Shameless plug of my skill-based character concept thread*cough, cough*

[Kryos]

Again, I am not condemning change itself.  I like change, see the need for it, and realize that I, or others, will not like everything that changes.  What's the book called?  Who Moved the Cheese?  My first boss ever made me read that at age 16.  His voice was lighthearted as he said, 'welcome to the real world, my young padawan.'   Change is adaptability is improvement is good.  At least it can be.  But this is neither a job nor a change adopting the metrics of the psychology of gaming or development modeling that I can see.

Personally, its not about the skills, its about goals, achievements, the chance to do something in the game substantial, to move and shake.  Lots of these options have been gutted.  No, most of these options have been gutted.

And based on the survey I just checked, negative reaction to the change is larger than the some of both neutral or positive, so over 2 to 1'ing the bias.  That's more than 50%, not 5.  And the gutting of the options I've mentioned is about 20% of the player types stand alone, more when recognized that people have blends of enjoyment.  Interestingly enough, this change moves back towards the type of things I liked.  Its a power increase.

But, I'm most miffed that I never saw it coming and the other stakeholders gave less than air about our opinions on it.  Its a big change, a lasting one.  And if our reactions are merited, in what form is this done?  I have not seen it.  This is a more meta topic than the change itself, the original post is quite clear about that.

I am also displeased that those who perceive this negatively are being lumped as 'over reacting' by you, Nergal.  I think those are two very distinct cases.

[LauraMars]

In a gradually dwindling market (MUDs, in this case), It is a very risky business venture to tell even 5% of your market that we are no longer going to serve you niche, so that we may better serve the 95%'s wishes.

You don't pay to play here.

This isn't a business.

You are still overreacting sir.

This is a big change, people will be emotional about it, esp. if they believe it will negatively affect their future fun.  I think it's fair to let people express that, so long as everyone remains civilized about it.

[Asmoth]

In a gradually dwindling market (MUDs, in this case), It is a very risky business venture to tell even 5% of your market that we are no longer going to serve you niche, so that we may better serve the 95%'s wishes.

You don't pay to play here.

This isn't a business.

You are still overreacting sir.

This is a big change, people will be emotional about it, esp. if they believe it will negatively affect their future fun.  I think it's fair to let people express that, so long as everyone remains civilized about it.

Fair point, just trying to keep people grounded in reality.

[FantasyWriter]

In a gradually dwindling market (MUDs, in this case), It is a very risky business venture to tell even 5% of your market that we are no longer going to serve you niche, so that we may better serve the 95%'s wishes.

You don't pay to play here.

This isn't a business.

You are still overreacting sir.

a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē/Submit
noun
a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
"an analogy between the workings of nature and those of human societies"
a correspondence or partial similarity.
"the syndrome is called deep dysgraphia because of its analogy to deep dyslexia"
a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects.
"works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature"

[boog]

Well, to be fair, we aren't paying for it. There are pay to play MUDs. Do they also poll their players as to what they implement?

I worked at one. The Eternal City. They didn't give half a shit what anyone wanted and did a lot of terrible things to monkey up everything they could. They still have subscribers, though. Soo.

In a dwindling market, you'll probably play whatever you're used to, regardless of what goes on.

Y'all are kinda whiny. But hey, I've never liked magick, so I have no horse in this race.

[RogueGunslinger]

Nobody complaining has addressed one of the major issues that would have arose if they did tell everyone beforehand: Storage, and countless people playing a certain type of character simply becuase it'll be the last time they can, instead of because it added to the game. I imagine a ton of those requests would be denied and the staff would have ended up pissing people off just as much, if not more.

Anyhow, Staff, being made up of players of the game, and having knowledge of what people like to play beyond the average player, really doesn't need to ask for input from the GDB if they're willing to amend and make changes to said decisions to smooth things out as much as they reasonably can afterwards.

That last bit is pretty key though.

[Kryos]

Well, to be fair, we aren't paying for it. There are pay to play MUDs. Do they also poll their players as to what they implement?

I worked at one. The Eternal City. They didn't give half a shit what anyone wanted and did a lot of terrible things to monkey up everything they could. They still have subscribers, though. Soo.

In a dwindling market, you'll probably play whatever you're used to, regardless of what goes on.

Y'all are kinda whiny. But hey, I've never liked magick, so I have no horse in this race.

I'd point you to GS, from 3 to 4, and the impact that had on subscriptions.  They too held their cards to their chest and laid them out only at the end.  Lots trumpeted the joy of the changes done there, but the reality is they cut the base in half quickly, and its spiraled down ever since.

Nobody complaining has addressed one of the major issues that would have arose if they did tell everyone beforehand: Storage, and countless people playing a certain type of character simply becuase it'll be the last time they can, instead of because it added to the game. I imagine a ton of those requests would be denied and the staff would have ended up pissing people off just as much, if not more.

Anyhow, Staff, being made up of players of the game, and having knowledge of what people like to play beyond the average player, really doesn't need to ask for input from the GDB if they're willing to amend and make changes to said decisions to smooth things out as much as they reasonably can afterwards.

That last bit is pretty key though.

I am curious of an example of this smoothing out through player input that can be demonstrated.

[boog]

I think they're being pleasant and patient trying to explain things and people are automatically shitting all over them.

But I guess that's par for the course around here.

You would never get away with the way some of the posters here have posted about the staff at other games. Ever. Just keep that in mind that they're humans, too. Please.

[boog]

I don't know what GS is. But, since i have real life experience with it: The Eternal City has been around for slightly less time than ArmageddonMUD. They have never had a resurge in players like we have. They hold steady at maybe a max of 50 players, but more often average 20-30. They have had the same core playerbase for decades now. Even with all of the changes that have occurred, completely crippling some skillsets while insanely benefiting others, people STILL stayed around, because they had faith, they had nothing else to do, or they enjoyed one another more than the skill changes.

It's unfair to lack trust in all staff because of the changes made. I don't think it's fair the way some of you are speaking to them, either. You can't have a civil discussion while accusing staff that they're saying you suck. You can't treat this change poorly until we give it a go.

If it sucks, maybe it'll change. But it's not nice to sit there and bemoan shit that has been implemented for less than a day.

Ugh. Maybe I need to ghosty and get away from the GDB.

[Armaddict]

You would never get away with the way some of the posters here have posted about the staff at other games. Ever. Just keep that in mind that they're humans, too. Please.

Challenging decisions and defending assertions is not impolite.  There has been no flaming or anything excessive.  It's heated, but civil, because it affects people.  I've seen far worse on game forums, far worse, with no consequences whatsoever.  So this is not an accurate statement.

if they're willing to amend and make changes to said decisions to smooth things out as much as they reasonably can afterwards.

This is indeed key, because over time, this has been a weakness of most staff teams on Armageddon, not a strength.  Generally, it's a 'just go with it and we'll fix it later' until people stop fighting about it, and they move on.  Which you're well aware of, I assume, since you noted how key it was.  And this is why the upfront discussion is valuable.  Most of the time, problems with new concepts to be introduced to the game are indeed mentioned and elaborated on in the opening thread.  Whether it's determined to actually be a problem is the issue, which is why it has to be argued.