3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[Asmoth]

[lostinspace]

I really don't understand why Elkrosi, Drovians, and Nilazi were removed. It says it's because the guilds were added piecemeal and don't have a strong theme, but didn't you just break the other guilds down and sort their spells out by theme? Why can't there be 2 Elkrosi subguilds, one for pew pew lightning and one for the buffs and energy restoration effects? I haven't played either of the other classes, but I don't care if a spell or two is tossed aside because it isn't thematic, but I feel there was definitely a way Elkrosians could have been split to make a couple subguilds at least.

And while on one hand I am excited to mix my favorite class with a magic subguild I'm also not at all sure what each even does? Will each subguild have it's own documentation explaining what they have available? As of now I feel like staff just put in all this work redoing the subguild help files so players know exactly what they're going to get, and now there are 16 more that as far as I can tell only have vague references to what they do? I know what a Vivaduan can do because I played them, but I only have a vague understanding of what will be on my spell list if I make a Corruption aspect Viv.

[BadSkeelz]

You are not stoked to play a ranger who is out minding his own business, and all the sudden a mek or met rolls in and he waves his hand and says, "I'm not the ranger you want to eat." and then pets the beast?

Or a warrior who shoots fire when he farts?

A burglar who literally can vanish?

The opportunities are everywhere!

You're right, this is going to be awful.

Fuck it

Change objective: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

[Asmoth]

And while on one hand I am excited to mix my favorite class with a magic subguild I'm also not at all sure what each even does? Will each subguild have it's own documentation explaining what they have available? As of now I feel like staff just put in all this work redoing the subguild help files so players know exactly what they're going to get, and now there are 16 more that as far as I can tell only have vague references to what they do? I know what a Vivaduan can do because I played them, but I only have a vague understanding of what will be on my spell list if I make a Corruption aspect Viv.

It's day one, and if you tell them what you're trying to accomplish in a question request, I'm sure they will point you in the right direction.

But I assume eventually it will be like subguilds and guilds will be.  Very forthcoming of what you get.  Thought I don't ever think they will list spell lists, because they have never listed spell lists before.  But if they do, awesome.

[Armaddict]

Yeah, all this discussion has really made me want to do is start securing anti-mage concepts.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, all this discussion has really made me want to do is start securing anti-mage concepts.

Praise the Sun!

[Majikal]

Yeah, all this discussion has really made me want to do is start securing anti-mage concepts.

Amen.

#shine

[RogueGunslinger]

I really don't understand why Elkrosi, Drovians, and Nilazi were removed. It says it's because the guilds were added piecemeal and don't have a strong theme, but didn't you just break the other guilds down and sort their spells out by theme? Why can't there be 2 Elkrosi subguilds, one for pew pew lightning and one for the buffs and energy restoration effects? I haven't played either of the other classes, but I don't care if a spell or two is tossed aside because it isn't thematic, but I feel there was definitely a way Elkrosians could have been split to make a couple subguilds at least.

And while on one hand I am excited to mix my favorite class with a magic subguild I'm also not at all sure what each even does? Will each subguild have it's own documentation explaining what they have available? As of now I feel like staff just put in all this work redoing the subguild help files so players know exactly what they're going to get, and now there are 16 more that as far as I can tell only have vague references to what they do? I know what a Vivaduan can do because I played them, but I only have a vague understanding of what will be on my spell list if I make a Corruption aspect Viv.

Honestly? They have shit-ton of overlap with Whirans/Vivs/Ruks/Krathi's. They probably realized there was very little difference between some of the subguilds even though they were completely different elements. Also, consider the 1-2 niche and guild-defining spells they got would end up being the only class of these quasi-elemental subguilds picked.

[dravage]

I'm still pretty new and I've never played a magicker, but I hope this opens up more support role opportunities in major clans for magickers. Leaders have the potential to be more effective and get more shit done IC.

And LOL: "Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."

[Lizzie]

Here's one way to save what I (and apparently some other people) feel is a very unwanted decision:

Make all magick guilds subguilds, with whatever mindnumbingly convoluted third-mage 4-and-5-and-6-karma subsets of sub-subsets of aspects touches and doodads floats the collective staffs' boat. Remove the sorcerer "path" extended subguilds. Restore full-on sorcerers as 8-karma main guilds to be as insanely OP as they always used to be, and allow them to pick extended subguilds (if a person can be trusted to play an 8-karma guild, they sure as shit should be able to play a "formerly known as +3cgp" extended subguild)

Of course I'd never play another mage, since there won't be any such animal ever again if mages can't BE mages...but I'll definitely be special apping the sorcerer I was hoping to special app before you nerfed them.

[FantasyWriter]

Emotional vomit:
I can't recall the last time I something happened concerning Armageddon that hit me personally and decided not to just bite my tongue.  Before the sorcerer change was announced I had -finally- gotten my fifth karma after about eight years of play, so I submitted the dwarven sorcerer concept that I had stewed on nearly that entire time, and was told of the upcoming changes, and thus was given an Enlightenment sorc. Less than a day played, and I was killed by a full sorc before they were force-stored. Lovely, lovely irony.  But even then, I bit my tongue and when the change and reasons behind it were announced, I agreed that it fit better in the game world than dragon or avangion wannabes running around.


Re: This Change

I'm with Lizzie on the idea that 1/3-1/2 of an full elementalist's abilities isn't worth the the cost social exile and magick hunters.

I like that you can play more rounded out roles, but extended sub-guilds did that for us before the "no karma guild+karma subguild" rule, and they did a better job of it than the current change, in my opinion.

Drov & Elkros: I'm fine with some of their spells going back to krathis and Whirans like the old days or wherever else they end up.  Playing them, to me always felt more like "one trick ponies" than all other guilds.

Nilaz: I've had the experience of playing around some exceptionally welled played Nilazi, and spoke to players and staff who had some really deep insights on the nature and psychological effects of having Nilaz be an innate part of you.  This is something I very much hate to see leave the game.

And please spare me the "nothing is changing IC" BS we got with sorcs got neutered.  If something is not accessible by players, it it might as well not be part of the game.  It's of no more benefit, detriment, or use to us than knowing the names and pedigree of each of Tek's Harem.  Being told "sorcerers are still part of the world, but not available to players", was like being a kid and being told not to touch your parents' pretty shiny things but still having to look at them sitting on the table in front of you every day just out of reach.

I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or belittle the vast amount of work people have put into this and upcoming changes.  I know you are doing what you feel best for the current vision staff has for the future of the game, but I play Armageddon (and only Armageddon oddly enough) to help escape from the mundane and occasional powerlessness that is real life.  I like pretending to be someone with semi-phenomenal nearly cosmic powers.  I've never PKd with a magicker, I've always tried to add to others' stories to the best of my ability, and make desert encounters interesting for others.  To be quite honest, with the sole exception of a mundane aide I played last year, playing Gicks is about all that give me any enjoyment out of the game.  That may make me a poor role player, narrow minded, or whatever, but there it is.

Sorry so long, thought it would just be a few sentences, but sometimes you just have to throw it all out there and hope it helps you feel better.  

[Chettaman]

I love this change, but I can agree with the wanting guilds for elkrosians, drov and nilaz. It would of made sense to do the same. Nilaz could of been an exception. I say this mostly because there have been elkrosi elementalist PCs and now I'm wondering about their temple. Also drovians and their temples and what we'll call them as "fellow" gemmed IC.
Hm... Nevermind. I sense there will be people who have shadowy powers and they'll be called drovians. And people who throw lightning bolts will be known as elkrosians. Good conversation.

I certain you can still special app for a character directly connected to an element and all of its aspects. Or maybe even... learn those other aspects. Interesting... (probably not learn, but it sounds cool)

I seriously can't wait to see some new actual roleplay with the witches who will no longer fear coming out into the light.

[BadSkeelz]

I will miss Nilzai as a natural predator of elementalist, even if most of them seemed content to fuck with mundanes or jump in to bed with elementalists (sometimes literally).

[Delirium]

I certain you can still special app for a character directly connected to an element and all of its aspects. Or maybe even... learn those other aspects. Interesting... (probably not learn, but it sounds cool)

I'm equally certain you can't as they've stated many times the full mage guilds are now unplayable.

I dunno, I'm still parsing out how I feel about this.

I can think of new concepts for Gemmed that this actually opens up, as long as they're willing to work directly with the templarate or .. whatever other options open up to them.

Can't make judgements on how well the subguild skills synergize, as I have no idea what they are. Which after ~14 years of playing is honestly kind of cool. Something new.


I will miss Nilazi and I hope they are brought back soon - all those new subguild elementalists are gonna need someone who can hunt them.

[Vwest]

This seems like it's going to make magick a much more common thing.

I'm very pro-magick, I like seeing it in-game and I've probably had more experience with playing magicked up mundanes than most. I'm not the person on the GDB complaining about how powerful magick guilds were, or fearing for the relevance of my mundane. I think magick and psionics and all that is an interesting source of conflict, as both an inward and personal thing and as a point of outward conflict.

With that said, I'm concerned about what this is going to do to the line between magicker and mundane and the potential power spike associated with having a lot of karma.

The line between a magicker and a mundane was a decisive one and with it came a lot of clear cut expectations and consequences; social limits, coded power limits and all that kind of thing. You couldn't ever circumvent them without incurring some other manner of downside. These weren't grey areas where you could easily blow it off, either.

This was black and white, hard documented, hard coded.

My concern here is... almost everyone has one karma point.

It means everyone except the cutest of newbies is going to have the option of rocking some magick every single time they make a character. The coded limitation of having magick power was that you weren't capable of doing the things mundane characters could -- you couldn't get more than subguild level combat skills, you could never enjoy the range of craft options a merchant does and you could never benefit from the insurmountable freedoms of being a ranger.

Now? You are a mundane with all the competitive advantages it entails, except you're also going to have the benefits of buffs, debuffs, self-healing or direct damage.

I've had a number of PCs who walked around with magick enhancements and you go from being a powerful combatant to an unstoppable super soldier. With even a minor armor buff, my heavily armored and high end warrior was unassailable, even faced with warriors with superior skills -- advanced weapon skills? Is that a razor weapon? Gaze upon my shadow sword and weep, motherfuckers.

Magick on mundanes is incredibly powerful and with everyone having the option of having some flavor of magick, I can't imagine many people not taking full advantage.

This means more people playing magickers, more people being exposed to magick and a general degradation of the already faltering status quo.

As someone on the karma blacklist for what I can comfortably assume is forever, this also reinforces my view that there is almost no point in playing the game in a competitive manner without some karma. The difference in power scale between someone with extended subguild options and someone without them is already incredible. See: Warrior / Outdoorsman and Ranger / Rogue.

With every mundane now having the karma-based option to also throw down some fireballs, heal themselves or teleport around the game world, pure mundanes won't even have the relative safety net of rock-paper-scissors. There is no point in having a high bash skill to counter a Krathi when the Krathi can now block / parry you on equal terms and let you kill yourself on a damage shield.

I've seen what groups of magickers and mundanes can accomplish working in tandem and it's cool and fun to be a part of. This change seems like it's going to remove the mundanes from the equation and worse, it's going to leave people without non-mundane options without any real chance to compete with those who do.

I like magick, I want to claim cautious optimism, but I'm honestly just plain cautious.

[dravage]

Emotional vomit:
I can't recall the last time I something happened concerning Armageddon that hit me personally and decided not to just bite my tongue.  Before the sorcerer change was announced I had -finally- gotten my fifth karma after about eight years of play, so I submitted the dwarven sorcerer concept that I had stewed on nearly that entire time, and was told of the upcoming changes, and thus was given an Enlightenment sorc. Less than a day played, and I was killed by a full sorc before they were force-stored. Lovely, lovely irony.  But even then, I bit my tongue and when the change and reasons behind it were announced, I agreed that it fit better in the game world than dragon or avangion wannabes running around.

This is pretty sad, sorry for the loss :/

[Asmoth]

Lots of valid points but some invalid concerns.

I think most of what you said is true, except for the Karma thing.  I had at my max, I think four Karma, then I mouthed off to Nyr and that never ends well, and now have 1.

I have played, Stone, water, wind, fire and even a burglar/partial psionicist (Granted he died in like two days).  All with 1 Karma.

So not having Karma doesn't mean they won't give you a shot at some interesting shit.

It just makes you have to work harder for it.

[Bogre]

Hate the loss of 3 whole elements.  Contrived or not, they've been a part of the game for an extremely long time.  Would like to see them woven back in as an identity, even if they never actually get a full 4 sub-guilds each.

I am pretty dismayed.

For one, these changes sunk about 5-10 concepts I had stored up for play. I am really regretting now that I didn't special app the PC I wanted to a couple weeks back, because now I'll never make it. Elkros and Nilaz were things I always had a ton of interest in playing, and I had a bunch of thoughts about Drovians (which I love) and Krathis.  

I mean - why eliminate Drov, Elkros, and Nilaz? One of the things I've always loved is the diversity of elements. Tossing them out is only snuffing a lot of the diversity in Arm. I mean, I -might- be okay with it if those spells and abilities were pulled back into the other options so that the subs were expanded. Lightning being the province of whirans? Okay, fine. But I don't think that Drov, which is a pretty unique element, and Nilaz, which is super unique, should be taken away. There's a lot you miss out on by cutting out shadowy Drovians and evil Nilazis from the game, and I don't think that's beneficial. It just feels like a big chunk of what made Armageddon Arm just disappeared.

I'm also not sure what this is going to do for magick prevalence in game. I mean - why would you play a warrior when you could play a spell buffed warrior? Is there a reason that every loner indie ranger would ever not take a magick sub?

TLDR:

Wish Drov and Nilaz remained, at least.
Wish that full elementalists were still an option - though I would give their guilds some rudimentary mundane skills.

[Lizzie]

If I had known that this change was going to occur, I would've made my last main-guild mage a special-app Nilazi instead of what I ended up picking (which I only picked as a challenge to play something I really had no interest in, just to see if I could create some interest in playing it).

[Kryos]

I'm flabbergasted.  In a bad, bad way.

One, I wish staff would actually talk with players about massive, sweeping changes before pushing them out.  

Two, I do not like what I see, at all.  I think magick could have used some love or perhaps a refactor, but this was taking to it with a sledgehammer, and the pieces left . . .

[Chettaman]

Magick is actually scary now. Muahaha! Well... scarier then before.
I don't think it'll be more common than before and if it is, I can only hope as often as I usually do, that no one abuses their abilities and everyone roleplays to their fullest.

which... when I say it, god help us all.
I also wish the other elements stuck around. I say they should return!**

[Nergal]

Just to reply to a melange of player concerns here. This post isn't directed at anyone in particular.

I don't think that looking at roles as if there is a "cost" to playing them is entirely accurate. As with any role before this change, you should focus on whether you enjoy something thematically. The idea of playing a magicker is not just about power, but about where they fit (or don't) in society. One part always came with the other. Now the power is different, but I think disregarding the change as "1/3rd of a magicker" or "pieces" isn't productive when you consider the myriad of gameplay changes that a change of this nature will undoubtedly bring. In other words, there is a net gain that I think we'll notice over time.

However, the idea of these roles having a "cost" to playing them is accurate in one sense. By picking a magicker guild, you're giving up a way your character could be versatile in another manner. Bearing in mind that no guild is completely good at everything, any guild+magicker_subguild combination is going to have weaknesses. That will at least partly blunt the concern of magickers becoming overpowered, and will be addressed further during the guild revamp.

My personal prediction is that magickers will become more common in the short-term (for curiosity's sake), and about as common as they are now (or rarer) in the long term (as people realize that their magicker characters are missing other abilities that the player favors).

[Armaddict]

Yeeeeeah, the more I think this over, the more I think this was not that well thought out.

Like it was nerd splerging over a cool idea versus objectively looking at what things it would affect.

[Asmoth]

Guys, look at it from this perspective.

It is what it is.

You can't change it, you just have to live in the world with it.

I personally would have LOVED to play a Nilaz, but eh, shit happens.

I also personally would have LOVED to play a full sorcerer.  But shit happens like a year ago or whenever that happened.

Look for the positives and not the negatives.  You literally went from WATER, STONE, LIGHTNING, SHADOWS, VOID, FIRE AND WIND. -only, with the chance of some shitty half assed subguild options-.

To literally massive combinations of abilities and talents.

If you look at it at it's basest number, that's 6x4=24 options, then you add in the differences that can be had and you're at petty staggering numbers of potential combos.  WAY less chance of two mages being cookie cutter.

[dravage]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, and I probably don't know what I'm speaking about, but couldn't staff consider leaving in the full mage options for Elkoz, Nilaz, Drov etc at a higher Karma cost, or at least still open for special application? This way it doesn't leave a gaping hole for some people which had these concepts planned, and doesn't eliminate a piece of the game's history. Just a thought!