3/21/16 Update Discussion Thread

[Asmoth]

I am amazed that some of you haven't been banned for a week yet.  If I took such a tone, publicly with staff on be hit with the ban hammer.

Everyone is freaking out about something only a handful of characters have even experienced, and from the release notes, just now are they able to even fully experience it that their mana will regen.

Everyone needs to calm down and play one first before freaking out.

[Large Hero]

Much like the sorcerer change - my question remains basically the same - why didn't you guys do something fun with it? Why not a phased change based on player reactions in a plotline? You don't have to involve players with changes in code - it is, after all, your playground, but why wouldn't you want the playerbase be a witness to the change IC'ly?

I can only come up with two answers.

Could staff have tied this into an IC event? Yes.

Did they have to? No. It isn't a fault that they did not.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with changing the code or balance of the game without tying it to an IC event.

I really don't have to say anything besides the above sentence, but:

I find the attitude you're displaying here weird and aggressive. "You didn't take a potential opportunity here, therefore you're apathetic or lazy."

Because deciding to change something without optionally tying it into an IC event means you are apathetic or lazy. What?

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the changes, staff has invested time and effort into changing something. It's the opposite of apathy or laziness. Even if you feel it isn't good enough for you.

I realize that changing the way magick guilds work is different than just altering numbers in melee combat code. I realize there was more potential here to tie it into IC events.

But, shit - this kind of "not good enough! Therefore worthy of complaint!" attitude is fucking poisonous.

[valeria]

I am amazed that some of you haven't been banned for a week yet.  If I took such a tone, publicly with staff on be hit with the ban hammer.

Everyone is freaking out about something only a handful of characters have even experienced, and from the release notes, just now are they able to even fully experience it that their mana will regen.

Everyone needs to calm down and play one first before freaking out.

I'm not sure we're reading the responses here in the same tone. I've been seeing a lot of legitimate concerns. Some of them are repetitive, but you can't expect everyone to respond to such a sweeping change with universal excitement.

Everyone here really enjoys this game and wants what they think would be best for it. I don't see anyone being any more "freaking out" than you, which isn't to say that you are either, just that reading other people's posts in the same tone you read your own might offer some perspective.

[seidhr]

In regards to the recent release notes:

Nope.  Still seeing magicker options as main guilds and no sub-guild options during character creation on my account.  Doesn't matter how many times I login and out.

Your options won't update until you enter the game as a PC and leave the game again.  Since you don't have an active PC you can create one and enter the game as them, then quit out, and submit a storage request immediately.  That'll update your options.

[Lizzie]

I am amazed that some of you haven't been banned for a week yet.  If I took such a tone, publicly with staff on be hit with the ban hammer.

Everyone is freaking out about something only a handful of characters have even experienced, and from the release notes, just now are they able to even fully experience it that their mana will regen.

Everyone needs to calm down and play one first before freaking out.

I'm not interested in playing a mage sub-guild that is either a "hint/touch" of what a full-on guild used to be, or only one "aspect" without any of the other aspects. Just like with sorcery - I wanted to play a sorcerer. The whole shebang. Not just an aspect of it. I have zero interest in trying this out. I USED to look forward to trying the magick classes I'd never tried before. I USED to look forward to my next whiran. Now, I have no interest at all. That's why I hate it. Because it just suddenly lost my interest in a single post.

[Asmoth]

I am amazed that some of you haven't been banned for a week yet.  If I took such a tone, publicly with staff on be hit with the ban hammer.

Everyone is freaking out about something only a handful of characters have even experienced, and from the release notes, just now are they able to even fully experience it that their mana will regen.

Everyone needs to calm down and play one first before freaking out.

I'm not interested in playing a mage sub-guild that is either a "hint/touch" of what a full-on guild used to be, or only one "aspect" without any of the other aspects. Just like with sorcery - I wanted to play a sorcerer. The whole shebang. Not just an aspect of it. I have zero interest in trying this out. I USED to look forward to trying the magick classes I'd never tried before. I USED to look forward to my next whiran. Now, I have no interest at all. That's why I hate it. Because it just suddenly lost my interest in a single post.

Yes I got that, I got that last night when you said the same thing three times in three different posts.

You can be upset, you can be disappointed.

But what do think repeating the same thing over and over is going to change?  Do you think they are going to go, Hey guys, Lizzie is pretty upset about this, maybe we should change it back?

That is not going to happen.  And for the record I wish they left full mages in AND added these new subguilds, but they didn't and I understand that Asmoth ain't stopping the tide. Maybe you should realize that Lizzie isn't parting the Red Sea either? (I'm not religious, was that Moses thing accurate or was it a different sea?")

[Jihelu]

I am amazed that some of you haven't been banned for a week yet.  If I took such a tone, publicly with staff on be hit with the ban hammer.

Everyone is freaking out about something only a handful of characters have even experienced, and from the release notes, just now are they able to even fully experience it that their mana will regen.

Everyone needs to calm down and play one first before freaking out.

I'm not interested in playing a mage sub-guild that is either a "hint/touch" of what a full-on guild used to be, or only one "aspect" without any of the other aspects. Just like with sorcery - I wanted to play a sorcerer. The whole shebang. Not just an aspect of it. I have zero interest in trying this out. I USED to look forward to trying the magick classes I'd never tried before. I USED to look forward to my next whiran. Now, I have no interest at all. That's why I hate it. Because it just suddenly lost my interest in a single post.

Yes I got that, I got that last night when you said the same thing three times in three different posts.

You can be upset, you can be disappointed.

But what do think repeating the same thing over and over is going to change?  Do you think they are going to go, Hey guys, Lizzie is pretty upset about this, maybe we should change it back?

That is not going to happen.  And for the record I wish they left full mages in AND added these new subguilds, but they didn't and I understand that Asmoth ain't stopping the tide. Maybe you should realize that Lizzie isn't parting the Red Sea either? (I'm not religious, was that Moses thing accurate or was it a different sea?")

I really don't get behind your "better not complain or try or voice any concern because theres no way it will change"
It's so passive and regressive it's off putting like hell.

"Do you think they are going to go, Hey guys, Lizzie is pretty upset about this, maybe we should change it back?"
If everyone in the game said "Hey this change is fucking bad" do I think staff would change it? Probably. But no they better not voice any complaint.

[Beethoven]

No matter how many times you try to stop people from voicing negative opinions, Asmoth, they're still going to do it despite you. It's utterly futile so you might as well just go with it.

[Asmoth]

I'm on my phone so I can't find that quote yet but seidr or however you spell her name, just said last night that they don't go with popular opinion because it would be impossible to get a majority vote.

I'm sure they will look over the data and see what people are playing in the months and year to come and make edits.  This is not the end of the world guys.

Some character live a long ass time, some die in a day, with that swing in longevity, you can't expect changes based on feedback to come in a few days or even a few months.  There simply won't be enough players who used and tested the system by then.

And on a joking and slightly serious side, stop trying to ruin my Flying Ranger concept before I ever get a chance to play one with this complaining! Geez.

[WarriorPoet]

Seems complicated.

I am alarmed at re-learning the process.

[manonfire]

Much like the sorcerer change - my question remains basically the same - why didn't you guys do something fun with it? Why not a phased change based on player reactions in a plotline? You don't have to involve players with changes in code - it is, after all, your playground, but why wouldn't you want the playerbase be a witness to the change IC'ly?

I can only come up with two answers.

Could staff have tied this into an IC event? Yes.

Did they have to? No. It isn't a fault that they did not.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with changing the code or balance of the game without tying it to an IC event.

I really don't have to say anything besides the above sentence, but:

I find the attitude you're displaying here weird and aggressive. "You didn't take a potential opportunity here, therefore you're apathetic or lazy."

Because deciding to change something without optionally tying it into an IC event means you are apathetic or lazy. What?

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the changes, staff has invested time and effort into changing something. It's the opposite of apathy or laziness. Even if you feel it isn't good enough for you.

I realize that changing the way magick guilds work is different than just altering numbers in melee combat code. I realize there was more potential here to tie it into IC events.

But, shit - this kind of "not good enough! Therefore worthy of complaint!" attitude is fucking poisonous.

Skipping over all your strawman static,

Granted, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with not tying code changes to an IC event, but throttle back a half-second and be cognizant of what type of game we're playing here. It's a high-fantasy sandbox where players come to create and reside in an alternate reality because it's fucking fun.

This is a huge change. There's literally three entire guilds disappearing from the game. No more Elkrans. No more Drovians. No more Nilazi. Coupled with that, the basic paradigm of what elementalists (which comprised basically half of the available guilds) are is changing. Half the guilds in the game will never be the same again.

Moreso than the sorcerer guild revamp, these changes beg for a spectacular shift IG or an RPT.

I'm disappointed there wasn't one.

[BadSkeelz]

Personally I wouldn't rush to conclude "This is an OOC change" meaning "There will be no IC consequences or acknowledgement or anything."

Staff bungled the announcement of Tuluk's closure (imo) with similar language as they're using here, which made it sound like the City would just shut down with no RP to justify it. That isn't actually what happened, but I wish Staff hadn't implied "this is all OOC with no IC consequences beyond not being able to play X anymore." I would have had more fun during the closure if that was the case.

I can already think of a few things that might be related to this in game, or conceivably affect it. So don't give up hope that there's not going to be any RP behind it.

[Jihelu]

If Nak doesn't get zombie rushed in the next two weeks I'll be dissapointed.

[Pale Horse]

In regards to the recent release notes:

Nope.  Still seeing magicker options as main guilds and no sub-guild options during character creation on my account.  Doesn't matter how many times I login and out.

Your options won't update until you enter the game as a PC and leave the game again.  Since you don't have an active PC you can create one and enter the game as them, then quit out, and submit a storage request immediately.  That'll update your options.

Ooooooh...I get it!

Thank you.

[Pale Horse]

If Nak doesn't get zombie rushed in the next two weeks I'll be dissapointed.

Get used to disappointment [/dreadpiratetalk].

No more Nilazi for the time being, remember?

[RogueGunslinger]

If Nak doesn't get zombie rushed in the next two weeks I'll be dissapointed.

Get used to disappointment [/dreadpiratetalk].

No more Nilazi for the time being, remember?

There's almost certainly still some in-game. And still some people with spec-apps that were accepted that haven't even gotten in game yet.

[Asmoth]

If Nak doesn't get zombie rushed in the next two weeks I'll be dissapointed.

Get used to disappointment [/dreadpiratetalk].

No more Nilazi for the time being, remember?

There's almost certainly still some in-game. And still some people with spec-apps that were accepted that haven't even gotten in game yet.

Hate to burst your bubble, but spec apps that are approved but not in play are invalid now.

I had a spec app elementalist and was told I had to change it to one of the aspects of approved Mage, or do a new special app all together.  So staff is working with you, but you can't bank old approved classes that no longer exist.

[RogueGunslinger]

Shitty how they're saying something that implies the opposite then.

[BadSkeelz]

Well, do remember this is Asmoth telling you. I would get that confirmed by Staff.

[th3kaiser]

It was in the FAQ. Asmoth is correct.

[Nergal]

What about my special application/extended subguild application that I have not yet made in-game?
Please send in a question request, quoting your special application request number. We will work with you to adjust and re-approve your application with one of the new subguilds.

[Asmoth]

Well, do remember this is Asmoth telling you. I would get that confirmed by Staff.

Ye of little faith!

[Large Hero]

Much like the sorcerer change - my question remains basically the same - why didn't you guys do something fun with it? Why not a phased change based on player reactions in a plotline? You don't have to involve players with changes in code - it is, after all, your playground, but why wouldn't you want the playerbase be a witness to the change IC'ly?

I can only come up with two answers.

Could staff have tied this into an IC event? Yes.

Did they have to? No. It isn't a fault that they did not.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with changing the code or balance of the game without tying it to an IC event.

I really don't have to say anything besides the above sentence, but:

I find the attitude you're displaying here weird and aggressive. "You didn't take a potential opportunity here, therefore you're apathetic or lazy."

Because deciding to change something without optionally tying it into an IC event means you are apathetic or lazy. What?

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the changes, staff has invested time and effort into changing something. It's the opposite of apathy or laziness. Even if you feel it isn't good enough for you.

I realize that changing the way magick guilds work is different than just altering numbers in melee combat code. I realize there was more potential here to tie it into IC events.

But, shit - this kind of "not good enough! Therefore worthy of complaint!" attitude is fucking poisonous.

Skipping over all your strawman static,

Granted, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with not tying code changes to an IC event, but throttle back a half-second and be cognizant of what type of game we're playing here. It's a high-fantasy sandbox where players come to create and reside in an alternate reality because it's fucking fun.

This is a huge change. There's literally three entire guilds disappearing from the game. No more Elkrans. No more Drovians. No more Nilazi. Coupled with that, the basic paradigm of what elementalists (which comprised basically half of the available guilds) are is changing. Half the guilds in the game will never be the same again.

Moreso than the sorcerer guild revamp, these changes beg for a spectacular shift IG or an RPT.

I'm disappointed there wasn't one.

I agree that a change like this is very conducive to an IC event. Such IC events are usually fun. Yes, the point of the game is to have fun. It would have been good to pair it with an IC event.

Saying that choosing not to do so can be nothing other than apathy or laziness is just not constructive and is downright clownish.

Throttle back for half a second and be cognizant of that.

[hyzhenhok]

If something is being removed because it was decided it doesn't fit the game's theme, it doesn't make sense to immortalize its removal as part of the setting's history. We didn't need a magickal calamity to explain why sandwiches were removed and can no longer be made. We didn't need a momentous natural disaster to explain why spikey wristwraps that slash your opponent automatically vanished into thin air. We didn't need an HRPT to mark the removal of sunslits with glass lenses. We didn't need a mysterious, global epidemic disease to explain why people can no longer create explosive traps or search for hidden doors. If it's decided that something shouldn't exist and should never have existed within the game, you retcon. You don't immortalize.

[Large Hero]

If something is being removed because it was decided it doesn't fit the game's theme, it doesn't make sense to immortalize its removal as part of the setting's history. We didn't need a magickal calamity to explain why sandwiches were removed and can no longer be made. We didn't need a momentous natural disaster to explain why spikey wristwraps that slash your opponent automatically vanished into thin air. We didn't need an HRPT to mark the removal of sunslits with glass lenses. We didn't need a mysterious, global epidemic disease to explain why people can no longer create explosive traps or search for hidden doors. If it's decided that something shouldn't exist and should never have existed within the game, you retcon. You don't immortalize.

That's a fair outlook. I think this could have been paired with an IC event, certainly. It does have much more potential IC tie-in than retconning sandwiches, though I know you weren't making a serious example. I also understand reasons for choosing not to immortalize something.

My main issue with manonfire's comments is that there's no reason to be insulting about staff's choice. Disagreement is allowed, sure, and even healthy. But there's no reason to be calling genuine effort (even if you don't feel it was good enough for you) the product of laziness and apathy. It's a poisonous atmosphere that we don't need around here.