Scan: are you blind?

[Kryos]

The basic premise here is, I cannot fathom an ig or ooc reason why every single character shouldn't have master scan potential in game.  This is with the following caveat:  if nothing was done to change the hide and sneak mechanics currently in place as of posting.  I tossed up changing them as an option too, for what I will believe will be effect of clearly reading player sentiment.

The reason for this caveat is that the last time I did some analytics on these skills and their work together, hide and scan came off the clear champion, by a depressing margin.  To the point it seems they can be more effective than their non mundane counterparts(I'd consider them a found out IG topic for those who don't want to know).  Also some skimming here and there has had this particular discussion rear its head in a few threads over recent, and longer times.

[Asmoth]

No, because many reasons:

One is that there are critters you can only see at advanced or master scan in the wilds that rightfully should only be seen by Rangers, this would make them hiding pointless.

I honestly believe they ruined barrier when they made everyone master contact, because before that I had a few characters that had high barrier and could literally vanish from clan leaders enemies and the like, now that's nearly impossible because even at master barrier they break your barrier most of the time.  While I don't care if someone earned master contact, I do care when Joe noob is breaking my shit.  This would be the same for stealthy types who aren't masters at hide.

Giving people master skills I don't feel is the answer, but giving people the ability to EARN it, that I'm down with. Plus I hate how easy it is to build sniff based on skills you have and don't.

[Kryos]

No, because many reasons:

One is that there are critters you can only see at advanced or master scan in the wilds that rightfully should only be seen by Rangers, this would make them hiding pointless.

I honestly believe they ruined barrier when they made everyone master contact, because before that I had a few characters that had high barrier and could literally vanish from clan leaders enemies and the like, now that's nearly impossible because even at master barrier they break your barrier most of the time.  While I don't care if someone earned master contact, I do care when Joe noob is breaking my shit.  This would be the same for stealthy types who aren't masters at hide.

Giving people master skills I don't feel is the answer, but giving people the ability to EARN it, that I'm down with. Plus I hate how easy it is to build sniff based on skills you have and don't.

I definitely get the point about some NPCs having hide and sneak and that adds to their rarity and danger levels.  Also, as a function of game play viability, that these levels are varied.  I had even chewed on that pre posting, but didn't come up with some sort of epiphany regarding the fallout of slapping master scan potential on people. I concluded from indulging scan and its apparent stat's already weakened position and the fact that the means of engagement would not change it simply wouldn't have a huge impact.  Since most NPCs who hide or sneak in the game are auto-aggresssive or auto-flee monsters, the rarity of their resources I do not believe would be impacted.  Thus the conclusion that no IG reason could be found.  I do not believe it'd have a huge impact on NPC engagement, and only a modest one on antagonistic PvP.  Sure would relieve a lot of . . . frustration, though.

That IG allotment being said, moving on to OOC.  I am not someone with a great natural ability to hide.  Tall enough that my head can be seen over supermarket aisles, broad enough I can't hide behind a telephone pole, and so on.   Despite these natural hindrances to my hiding ability, my ability to see others hiding is decent, at least.  Maybe it was all those midnight games of hide and seek and such I did as a youth, maybe it was all the time spent enjoying the outdoors when I should have been hunting.  Maybe its a tie to psychological and physiological brain makeup.  Also, some people in modern armed forces are trained specifically to watch out for people or hide from people using the techniques derived from studies on human behaviors.  It is a teachable skill.  Either way, be it a trained or natural allotment of ability, it seems to validate that anyone OOC could attain reasonable level of wariness and situational awareness to be pretty good at 'scanning.'  And the limitations of this ability are already . . . perhaps over represented in the game.

This is the basis for the no ooc reason claim.  And now I'll be quiet a while, to mind my own recommendations of letting threads develop.

[CodeMaster]

Something worth mentioning is that finding hidden (N)PCs isn't the only thing scan is good for, and IMO is truly one of its least important effects.

Relatively speaking, though, I'd agree hide should be a harder skill to use.  It should slow its users down, it should degrade their perception skills, and it should promote careful play in the same way that walking along a cliff's edge does (e.g., coming out of hide when you get an Alas, you cannot go that way).

[Armaddict]

There are changes to be made around stealth and stealth detection, but this is not one of them.

[solera]

I have to assume that skills teachable in RL are not to Zalanthans. Most times,  I have definitely felt scan is realistic, it mirrors my experience in not seeing a bird in a tree, a goat in dappled shade, a face in the crowd, even if they are pointed out.

[Riev]

It would be a mistake, in my opinion, to think of sneak and hide as literally "walking like a cartoon villain" and "hiding being a lamppost".

Sometimes, hiding is just blending in with your surroundings. Being a part of a group that is talking, but not really engaged with them at all. Moving from a shadowy place with a vantage to sitting in an alleyway, appearing an asleep homeless person.

[Asmoth]

It would be a mistake, in my opinion, to think of sneak and hide as literally "walking like a cartoon villain" and "hiding being a lamppost".

Sometimes, hiding is just blending in with your surroundings. Being a part of a group that is talking, but not really engaged with them at all. Moving from a shadowy place with a vantage to sitting in an alleyway, appearing an asleep homeless person.

I think people are more talking about how a guy with advanced/master hide can literally hide while surrounded by a group of twelve people looking at him.  Not so much as to the roleplay of HOW he's hiding.  There are only so many shadows in game, and it would be folly to say that everytime you hide you're dropping into a shadow.

[Riev]

It would be a mistake, in my opinion, to think of sneak and hide as literally "walking like a cartoon villain" and "hiding being a lamppost".

Sometimes, hiding is just blending in with your surroundings. Being a part of a group that is talking, but not really engaged with them at all. Moving from a shadowy place with a vantage to sitting in an alleyway, appearing an asleep homeless person.

I think people are more talking about how a guy with advanced/master hide can literally hide while surrounded by a group of twelve people looking at him.  Not so much as to the roleplay of HOW he's hiding.  There are only so many shadows in game, and it would be folly to say that everytime you hide you're dropping into a shadow.

You should try keeping a better eye on him. Sure, not all 12 people sneezed at once, but if 12 people are all interrogating someone and nobody is watching him? For shame.

(That said, I've known people who do the "tell;hide" stuff and that IS mildly annoying)

[Kryos]

Seeing a lot of nos, which is great that people are voting.  But might I perhaps lure you out of your silence to expound upon why you feel such?  Cookies?  Candy?  I'd love to see the reasoning, regardless.

[azuriolinist]

I'd rather there was a skill/command that allowed PCs to search a room for hidden (N)PCs with a reasonable delay. Those with the scan skill would be the vigilant and sharp-eyed sort, but it would also be possible for other PCs to find (N)PCs, given some time, which would make sense, realistically.

[Asmoth]

I'd rather there was a skill/command that allowed PCs to search a room for hidden (N)PCs with a reasonable delay. Those with the scan skill would be the vigilant and sharp-eyed sort, but it would also be possible for other PCs to find (N)PCs, given some time, which would make sense, realistically.

This as well would be a great addition.  In other games it's the search skill, but in arm, I believe the search skill is relegated to finding hidden exits and entrances.

[Armaddict]

I'd rather there was a skill/command that allowed PCs to search a room for hidden (N)PCs with a reasonable delay. Those with the scan skill would be the vigilant and sharp-eyed sort, but it would also be possible for other PCs to find (N)PCs, given some time, which would make sense, realistically.

This as well would be a great addition.  In other games it's the search skill, but in arm, I believe the search skill is relegated to finding hidden exits and entrances.

This does not make sense in terms of a crowded street.

The portions of time where the sneak/hide skills are actually abused are minimal and a bit out of proportion compared to the need to 'nerf' (for lack of a better word) it based off those parameters.  Those instances can be handled with relative ease after the fact, and can be countered with objects in game.

Changes to sneak/hide should be based around making it a more dynamic and real skillset, rather than going at it with the mindset of making everyone safer from it.

[azuriolinist]

This does not make sense in terms of a crowded street.

The portions of time where the sneak/hide skills are actually abused are minimal and a bit out of proportion compared to the need to 'nerf' (for lack of a better word) it based off those parameters.  Those instances can be handled with relative ease after the fact, and can be countered with objects in game.

Changes to sneak/hide should be based around making it a more dynamic and real skillset, rather than going at it with the mindset of making everyone safer from it.

Maybe have the skill be based on how crowded/populated a room is, with the chance of finding someone blending in with the crowd being very low. The delay can be taken advantage of, as well, so that in an occurence that someone searches in a room another is hiding in, the hider could move away. Searching for hidden (N)PCs should change the PC's long desc. for the duration of the search, so it would be obvious to the hider that the searcher is still... well, searching.

It wouldn't be so much as a nerf as an added ability for others to not appear so blind during some situations.

[Asmoth]

This does not make sense in terms of a crowded street.

The portions of time where the sneak/hide skills are actually abused are minimal and a bit out of proportion compared to the need to 'nerf' (for lack of a better word) it based off those parameters.  Those instances can be handled with relative ease after the fact, and can be countered with objects in game.

Changes to sneak/hide should be based around making it a more dynamic and real skillset, rather than going at it with the mindset of making everyone safer from it.

Maybe have the skill be based on how crowded/populated a room is, with the chance of finding someone blending in with the crowd being very low. The delay can be taken advantage of, as well, so that in an occurence that someone searches in a room another is hiding in, the hider could move away. Searching for hidden (N)PCs should change the PC's long desc. for the duration of the search, so it would be obvious to the hider that the searcher is still... well, searching.

It wouldn't be so much as a nerf as an added ability for others to not appear so blind during some situations.

Or perhaps have different areas have different difficulty modifiers.

A street in the middle of the day, super easy to hide in all those people.

A street in the middle of the night with no moons, easy as shit too, because it's dark.

A small narrow alley, probably not so easy.

etc etc.

[Armaddict]

Codewise, I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect that kind of differentiation, is why I say things this way.  Likewise, searching in the desert for hidden things seems...strange, to me.  Going through and adding these modifiers by room seems laborious, and adding them by sector type seems to be just more of the same sort of problem, making this an iffy-at-best solution.

[Asmoth]

Codewise, I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect that kind of differentiation, is why I say things this way.  Likewise, searching in the desert for hidden things seems...strange, to me.  Going through and adding these modifiers by room seems laborious, and adding them by sector type seems to be just more of the same sort of problem, making this an iffy-at-best solution.

I can respect that, but nothing ventured, nothing gained either.

[hyzhenhok]

I think this flawed premise is based on underestimating just how large, crowded and busy Armageddon rooms generally are. Scan doesn't represent "you're blind unless you have this skill." Scan represents the same skill that a pilot who can spot enemy planes before his squadmates has. Scan represents the same skill that a pre-modern long distance sharpshooter has. Scan represents the skill your cat has at noticing insects floating around the room. People who don't have scan aren't blind; people who have scan have exceptional vision, long distance scanning and detail-finding skills.

When a group of Bynners enter a wilderness room and only one or two can see that animal, obviously that animal is not in the middle of them, sitting in the open at their feet, and it just happens that half of the squad is literally blind. No, the animal hundreds of yards away, barely visible behind the brush and dust, because the wilderness room is huge. It's not blindness if you can't see it; it's amazing, excellent vision if you can. That's what scan represents.

When you're in a group of soldiers who try to stop a cloaked figure in one of Allanak's streets only to have him "vanish," he didn't literally pop into nothingness right before your eyes standing literally inches away from you. No, you were pushing down the busy street calling for him to stop, but he slipped into a stream of traffic and out of your sight before you got anywhere near him. Or a wagon rumbled down the street, blocking your sight, and you couldn't pick him up again. It's not blindness if you can't keep track of him; it's a rare an excellent skill if you can. That's what scan represents.

It's an understandable problem because a successfully stealthed character cannot communicate how they are doing it to those they are hiding/sneaking from. But that doesn't give the person who fails their watch/scan check the right to power emote that the stealthed character unfairly and unrealistically vanished into thin air, and I don't have much sympathy for those kinds of interpretations.

[Riev]

The one thing I would like is that if someone with scan DOES pick up and watch a shadow/stealthed PC/mob, they be given some way of pointing it out.

Like. If you're hiding behind the couch, and someone with scan notices you, but the guy next to them can't see you, thats it. He can't see you ever always.

If you can see that kagor laying flat against the sands, you should be able to point it out, somehow. I don't know how it'd work, but that'd make the scan skill more useful, at least.

[azuriolinist]

I think this flawed premise is based on underestimating just how large, crowded and busy Armageddon rooms generally are. Scan doesn't represent "you're blind unless you have this skill." Scan represents the same skill that a pilot who can spot enemy planes before his squadmates has. Scan represents the same skill that a pre-modern long distance sharpshooter has. Scan represents the skill your cat has at noticing insects floating around the room. People who don't have scan aren't blind; people who have scan have exceptional vision, long distance scanning and detail-finding skills.

When a group of Bynners enter a wilderness room and only one or two can see that animal, obviously that animal is not in the middle of them, sitting in the open at their feet, and it just happens that half of the squad is literally blind. No, the animal hundreds of yards away, barely visible behind the brush and dust, because the wilderness room is huge. It's not blindness if you can't see it; it's amazing, excellent vision if you can. That's what scan represents.

When you're in a group of soldiers who try to stop a cloaked figure in one of Allanak's streets only to have him "vanish," he didn't literally pop into nothingness right before your eyes standing literally inches away from you. No, you were pushing down the busy street calling for him to stop, but he slipped into a stream of traffic and out of your sight before you got anywhere near him. Or a wagon rumbled down the street, blocking your sight, and you couldn't pick him up again. It's not blindness if you can't keep track of him; it's a rare an excellent skill if you can. That's what scan represents.

It's an understandable problem because a successfully stealthed character cannot communicate how they are doing it to those they are hiding/sneaking from. But that doesn't give the person who fails their watch/scan check the right to power emote that the stealthed character unfairly and unrealistically vanished into thin air, and I don't have much sympathy for those kinds of interpretations.

I agree with this. Well said!

The one thing I would like is that if someone with scan DOES pick up and watch a shadow/stealthed PC/mob, they be given some way of pointing it out.

Like. If you're hiding behind the couch, and someone with scan notices you, but the guy next to them can't see you, thats it. He can't see you ever always.

If you can see that kagor laying flat against the sands, you should be able to point it out, somehow. I don't know how it'd work, but that'd make the scan skill more useful, at least.

This would be a great addition, rather than having to resort to 'kill'ing the hidden target.

[nauta]

When you're in a group of soldiers who try to stop a cloaked figure in one of Allanak's streets only to have him "vanish," he didn't literally pop into nothingness right before your eyes standing literally inches away from you. No, you were pushing down the busy street calling for him to stop, but he slipped into a stream of traffic and out of your sight before you got anywhere near him. Or a wagon rumbled down the street, blocking your sight, and you couldn't pick him up again. It's not blindness if you can't keep track of him; it's a rare an excellent skill if you can. That's what scan represents.

It's an understandable problem because a successfully stealthed character cannot communicate how they are doing it to those they are hiding/sneaking from. But that doesn't give the person who fails their watch/scan check the right to power emote that the stealthed character unfairly and unrealistically vanished into thin air, and I don't have much sympathy for those kinds of interpretations.

Very well said!  I just wanted to add:

At least sometimes the stealthed character can communicate, at least enough to hint at those who can't scan what's going on:

o change ldesc allows the stealth character to give an indication of where they are to those who see them.

o popping out an 'emote slips into traffic' before the 'hide' gives clues to the interpretation.

[Desertman]

People throw fireballs from their hands, walk around invisible, incorporeal, and kill dinosaurs and bus-sized spiders with stone swords in this world.

I watched a Dragon Ball Z battle above Allanak and a laser light show that would make Skrillex peanut butter and jealous.

It is not a huge reach for me to imagine some people have keener/possibly bordering on the level of supernatural senses of perception and some do not.

Not a reach for me at all.

[valeria]

I voted no a while ago. Basically, I'm on the hyzenhok train

Also, I think the ability for people with scan to unhide things (maybe an "indicate" command that would work only for people who are "watch"ing that person with scan) and the ability to "search" a room for hidden people (which would echo to the room) would be a lot better fixes for the problem. Giving everyone master scan just seems like extreme overkill, and there are guilds and extended subguilds with scan in the meanwhile.

[Patuk]

I just voted no because I like my stealth classes, y'know, useful.

[Kryos]

Glad to read the contributions, and its helping my train of thought on the matter.

The basic question is probably, is stealth in the right place?  A lot of people seem to think its not, but that the purposed solution is not a fitting one.

I'm definitely in line with the reasoning stealth needs some attention.  Fast to master and very, very codedly powerful to the point its used in obscene fashion once in a while. Some examples to follow.

If you walked into the empty room of your home, and someone followed you in, it would take near obliviousness not to notice.  Even with fantasy foo, that's stretching it.  I once had to participate in a scene where about 6 characters were in a closed environment with a stealth using adversary, and even with scan and time, nope.  0% chance to see them.  They called a buddy to open the obstruction from the other side and vanished.  I was ripped out of my engrossment and irritated considerably, but I can't fault the player:  that's how the code works. 

Alternative approaches can and do make a lot more sense, and are reasonable even in a game context.  Setting up an ambush is a simple example, and there are more.  I'll probably take another, more open minded swing at this later.

[Lizzie]

I wish I could change my vote. Now that Nilaz and Drov are both being eliminated from player-accessibility, I think master scan will be less useful, and as such, I don't really care anymore if every guild gets it or not. I used to think that it would give both of those guilds a bit more power than they needed - which was why I picked "no."

[whitt]

I wish I could change my vote. Now that Nilaz and Drov are both being eliminated from player-accessibility, I think master scan will be less useful, and as such, I don't really care anymore if every guild gets it or not. I used to think that it would give both of those guilds a bit more power than they needed - which was why I picked "no."

I got you.  I voted Yes when I would have picked No.