Magick and its place in Arm

[Large Hero]

I agree with Erythil, and point out to Large Hero:
You want to ask "which is better?" But you can't answer that. Better is subjective. Better for whom? If it's better for me, then it'll return to the "end of the world" plots when magick was all over the place, everyone and their brother was a magicker, and there was room reach, and it was insane, and everyone who wasn't a magicker was either in league with one, running from one, or trying to kill one.

That's why there are always these discussions. Because what's better for you isn't going to be what's better for me, or what's better for Badskeelz, or what's better for Desertman or Wizturbo.

There will be -no- agreement on what's better.

Disclaimer - these are just my opinions. Of course your experiences and opinions may vary. I don't claim to be right.

And actually Lizzie, I have to take exception with one thing you posted.

Because what's better for you isn't going to be what's better for me, or what's better for Badskeelz, or what's better for Desertman or Wizturbo.

Interesting systems that support the theme - those that make the most amount of people want to play the characters who use those systems,  whatever the theme happens to be - would be better for everyone.

I actually wouldn't care much either way if there were much less magick in the world, or if, to exaggerate, every character was given fireball, teleport and polymorph upon loading in at the Gaj - so long as there were interesting, fun and robust gameplay supporting it.

I wouldn't care if this was Mad Max RPI, or Merlin's Camelot RPI, or Star Wars RPI (ok, I'm exaggerating a little), so long as 1) I got to participate in shared storytelling with a group of players who I've found over the years to have some real talent and 2) the code was fun and supported what the game was going for.

As it stands, my personal opinion is that the magick system as current has a lot of flaws that could stand serious analysis. Some percentage of the playerbase feels the systems can be improved. That's why there are always these discussions.

[Tisiphone]

Magick is scary because of the ignorance of the population. Magick is scary because it is unknown and powerful. This is thematically very different from a Lovecraftian-style corruption and insanity attached to the occult that Tisiphone is suggesting.

This is how it works now, yes. Except I maintain it isn't really working, at least not for a number of players, as evinced by threads like these.

Not only would this represent a substantially change in the game's magickal theming, there's no reason to think it would even solve the problem. One major problem is players often do not appropriately roleplay the fear and ignorance and superstition they should have towards magick. Why should we expect them to appropriately roleplay fear and insanity and corruption?

Because the coded reality would better support it than the coded reality currently supports the theme now.

Rather than changing the theme, I would rather just reinforce the one we already have. If you want to make magick actually scary and unknown, you don't have to change the theme of the game to accomplish that.

I know you don't have to change the theme. I want the theme changed, because I like my proposed theme better than the one we have now. Also, I think it dovetails nicely into the one we have now and is a better, more fun way to go about magick being scary and dangerous.

Also, point of order: you don't have to go to Lovecraft for weirdness. I'm not suggesting we attach magick to some kind of outer darkness that eats away at the sanity of mortal man or betrays the true horror of the universe. I think the universe is fine as it is without being a soap-bubble floating in a terrifying void. Instead, what I'm proposing is that the elements - the primal forces, connected to the world, that drive elemental magick - are inhuman, and inhuman in a way that over time twists and changes those who get to close to them. That's a theme we have already seen played out in the world, and I'd like to bring the every-day coded reality closer to that, because it seems more fun to me than what we have now.

[Large Hero]

Instead, what I'm proposing is that the elements - the primal forces, connected to the world, that drive elemental magick - are inhuman, and inhuman in a way that over time twists and changes those who get to close to them. That's a theme we have already seen played out in the world, and I'd like to bring the every-day coded reality closer to that, because it seems more fun to me than what we have now.

Good point. There's already history of this sort of thing in game. Emphasizing it would be cool and wouldn't (shouldn't) upset the people who don't want to see lore changed in any way.

[Kryos]

I have a thought that some of the complaint generated in this topic is a meta problem, not a character problem.  The meta problem is that before you played magick users, learned what they could do, their strengths and limitations, or were subjected to them you probably as a player thought magic was volatile and scary.  Once you get over the magick hump, as it were, you the player draw your own conclusions about what magick is or isn't regarding volatile and scary.

This should have no impact on how characters perceive it, however.  Further, its inevitable.  No matter what system is in place, or even if its updated, eventually it will come to be understood and we will find ourselves in a revolving door right back here.  I also vastly dislike enforcing arbitrary behaviors to magick users.  Less of a box to be confined to is usually a good thing for creative people.

For my part, I would suggest that magick is scary.  With one spell, a magick user can end your life.  One, spell.  Poof, you're dead.  That's scary.  Magick is volatile.  I've had characters beset by foul witches and defilers with no warning, in an array of introductions to the school of hard knocks.  Just as many times, I've had characters gently seduced to try and lure them to the dark side.  Once or twice, some magickal jerk mugged one of my pcs.  Pretty volatile and unpredictable as an experience, I'd say, even on a player level.

I would say a more honed purpose for the gemmed may be enjoyed, but I suspect that is greatly dependent on the Templar running their show.  Though I've been mystified a long time why one or two specific groups don't use magick users abundantly, I've also not peeked fully behind their curtains.

Lastly, the hyperbole annoys me.  Casters have limitations on them, they cannot infinitely sustain actions of magick, nor can they snap their fingers and alter reality in shattering scale while taking their morning dump.  It serves little purpose to treat them as if they do have infinite resources or world shattering poop when discussing them.

[Norcal]

Instead, what I'm proposing is that the elements - the primal forces, connected to the world, that drive elemental magick - are inhuman, and inhuman in a way that over time twists and changes those who get to close to them. That's a theme we have already seen played out in the world, and I'd like to bring the every-day coded reality closer to that, because it seems more fun to me than what we have now.

I do not fully understand the need to disassociate elements from life, and make them some sort of occult thing. There are already lots of games that have such a theme. The elements are what make up life. The whole idea is that they are part of life as it exists and that life cannot exist without them. That is the reason why some sentient mortal beings have access to elemental power. It is a part of their "humanity" not something distant from it that they obtained by an arcane ritual. The current system or theme, implies that mortals are connected to the physical world, to the elements.

That essential nature of the elements to life is the idea behind the various tribal magick users, as I see it any way. I also do not understand why any change has to be something that twists, or is dark or somehow inhuman. Power corrupts and there is power in magick. I find it refreshing that Arm offers a different theme on magick, one that is not somehow dark and occult.

[Warsong]

If being gemmed was something you could keep secret with the templarate's permission, it would at least open up opportunities for interesting social conflicts. In its current form, I find that the gemmed concept is pretty much just negative, detracting from the game without adding anything except maybe a safer way for players to try magick for the first time. The fact that every gemmer is instantly identifiable simply rules out any hope of meaningful roleplay toward the social stigma.

Some could then choose to be openly gemmed so as to not risk offending somebody and provoking hostile reactions, and others could keep it secret, with perhaps an identifying tattoo that potential employers can check for. Hell, this will even make employment slightly more prestigious for ordinary people as it'll essentially be proof that you aren't a magicker (or are at least a rogue one). Minor side benefit.

I'm just desperate for anything other than the current model which is frankly dysfunctional and bad for roleplay.

[Delirium]

I like the idea of some sort of magical mark instead of a gem. You get a tattoo that adds a permanent magical effect to you that works just like the gem.

Anyone with the ability to detect magic can see it, regardless of if it's covered up, it just glows right through your clothes.

But otherwise it just looks like a normal tattoo that you can cover up if you so choose. Add a bit of mystery and uncertainty.

Suspicious people might force someone to, say, pull up their sleeve and prove they're not a dirty witch... by force, if need be.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just make the "about the throat" wear slot get covered up by the neck slot.  Then gemmed could hide it if they wanted to. Why exactly does the general populace need to know that someone is a magicker?

[wizturbo]

It would be neat to be able to conceal the Gem from the casual observer.  No real reason it can't be done except for code limitations, or I suppose you could say it's a law that it be openly shown.  Doesn't mean people have to follow the law.

[FantasyWriter]

I've always considered the Gem to be a Nazi-Era Yellow Star of David, so far as the day to day commoner was concerned.
"These people are different, and scary, and lower than the rest of us, so we, the Kind and Caring Government have pointed them out to you, so that their taint cannot harm you without your knowledge."

[CodeMaster]

It would be neat to be able to conceal the Gem from the casual observer.  No real reason it can't be done except for code limitations, or I suppose you could say it's a law that it be openly shown.  Doesn't mean people have to follow the law.

I like this angle because it gives peek another roleplayable dimension.

[Armaddict]

No, the role of magick in the game should not change just because there are more people who insist on playing mages more often, but don't like how magick is regarded in the game world.

I do not play elves and complain about the place of elves in the world.  I do not play half-elves and complain about their place in the world.  Doing such is a degradation of the game I enjoy, because the setting is what it is because of those explicitly stated roles.  People -do- still roleplay fear of mages.  Players -do- still fear mages, because of what they can do to other people's pc's.

The system of magick can be modified and changed as needed  No problems there.  The setting turning from one where I can play in a mostly non-magickal setting into one where I'm forced to endure it so that you can play the other half of the classes you enjoy without dealing with the the social implications of said role is a ridiculous, selfish concept.  If you -really- want to play a more magickal setting, then find one.  This one is a low-magick setting, and to pull a 180 on that will allow you to play it, but likely with a lot less people.

Edited to add:  I only read the last little bit.  So forgive me for not responding to the surely-better posts that were in here, but I just honed in on the ones that, once again, started pushing for mages to be involved in the day-to-day of everyone else more often.

[Inks]

Everything Armaddict said above.

I feel like it's the save five players on both sides of this argument posting in every magick related forum. Says something about GDBs generally, I think.

[Pale Horse]

Everything Armaddict said above.

I feel like it's the save five players on both sides of this argument posting in every magick related forum. Says something about GDBs generally, I think.

Yeah 

It's a comparatively small percentage of the overall player-base which actually posts on the GDB.  Whenever any topic gets re-hashed or brought back up in any thread, it's going to be the same people with the same opinions post again.

As far as the main topic, I'm going to have to agree that the place of magickers and magick IG should be kept as is, for the same reasons as have already been stated.

That said, I am not adverse to having magickers be more social or accepted.  If you want to have a magicker be so, create said space yourself IG.  Start a secret society, form a cabal of rogue mages, congregate in one of the inconveniently-placed saved rooms out in the ass-end of the Known.  A group of cooperating magickers could plop themselves down in the middle of the volcano and turn it into a 'Gicker-only club-house through purely IC means if they had the motivation and enough of them.  Just expect IG consequences (good or bad) if it happens.

[MeTekillot]

Low fantasy is about living in a world of monsters and magic, not about living in a world where these things are rare. People are only vocally anti-magick in the vast majority of cases because they can never kill enough turaals to parry a sorcerer's fireball and unspeakable his neck through his magick defense.

They don't like that magickers have power over them that they didn't achieve through certain means, or that it's unfair. I don't know why arguments of fairness and blance are entertained so much with magick but not when a Lord Templar introduces you to his five fave half-giants.

[Armaddict]

Not sure if you're talking about my 'low magick setting' or not, because I never called it low fantasy, nor do I really want to get into the semantics of definitions where they don't apply.  I was describing something which can be readily gleaned through context.

Point made (or attempting to be made) was that Armageddon is fairly distinct in its position on mages, magick, and on having it be a roleplaying game where characters aren't grouping up with mages to go get things done like hardy bands of adventurers.  It sets it apart, and frankly, sets the 'roleplaying' aspect a step higher in the right direction in my opinion.  Characters feel more real in their daily struggles when they can't just turn to a resource that just makes it happen.

This is repeatedly brought up as a playability aspect, and it's not.  The role of mages is completely playable.  The problem lies less in magick's place in the world, and more in magick's place in some people's heads; this is more of a concern of stubbornly clinging to a role some don't actually enjoy as much as they do the mechanics involved in it.  Loving magick, and loving magickers, are two different things, and those who want to play mages more should be finding a way to enjoy what they want to do, not trying to get everyone else to cater to their enjoyment of some mechanics and abilities.

Likewise, this has little to do with balance.  I'm never concerned with balance.  Mages are powerful, and they should be.  However, the idea that some people get bored playing them means we should drastically morph the outlook and basis of the game world is, again, selfish and shortsighted and to a small degree nonsensical.  Such an implementation would drive away those who specifically came for that type of setting, which I think is pretty safe to say we've all come to enjoy as is.  Looking for a setting that is more welcoming is easy.  Finding a setting like this one is hard.  Hence my position of

If you -really- want to play a more magickal setting, then find one.

Again, I'm not adverse to changes to magick.  But I am against drastic shifts in the game world for what is, essentially, a completely misrepresented reason that is more based in a personal want than the benefit of the game.

[Asmoth]

When you look at the GDB and the posters, versus the game and WHO, you will see that vocal minority is the rule of thumb on the GDB.

I'm sure there are tons of people who lurk, but don't share their opinion for a variety of reasons.

But it's also a bit unreasonable to think that just because the vocal minority is wrong just because the same five folks chime in on everything in the opposition to the for or against column.

I would think Staff are the only ones who know how people love or hate shit based on requests and private complaints to staff.

[Molten Heart]

Here is an interesting thread. It seems mostly still relevant. Follow the link for the whole thread.

I've moved the bulk of this post from another thread, which began as a discussion on how mundane people should more appropriately demonstrate fear of the "magicker" with a few suggestions.  My response began with a quote from Pantoufle:

I see more "issues" with the magicker population, itself, than with the "mundane" PCs who respond to magickers.

Firstly, there are simply way too many magickers in the game. I'm guilty of this, having played a long stream of spellcasting characters, myself, but the fact remains: there are just too many.

I agree completely. There is a notion in the documentation that magickers are this rare and mysterious breed capable of wielding immense power that warrants respect and fear. This fear is supposedly based on two things; that the general populace knows very little of them for lack of interaction/experience, and that magickers wield freakish levels of power.

As Pantoufle has mentioned, one of the problems is that they are not rare.

Were they ever rare? No. The problem is that IC events have completely changed the role of the magicker in the gameworld (in my opinion, for the worse) which has subsequently affected class development, world views, and this very discussion today. Here is how that happened:

A terrifying and presumably magickal cataclysm strikes the city-state of Tuluk, leaving it to be nothing more than a pile of rubble and ruins. Over seventy thousand people are killed that day in what has since come to be known as the Fall of Tuluk. During the chaos, Precentor Kul manages to overthrow Precentor Isar and gains control over what little remains.

Before the Cataclysm, magickers had a viable role in the southlands, middle, and northlands.  They weren't hunted down like dogs outside the city walls.  The weren't chased with torches and pitchforks or called abominations.  They had the opportunity to live as men and women using their skills to operate as a peaceful and productive, if potentially dangerous, part of society.  The only magickers that were hunted down and killed were sorcerers and raiding magickers, who were relatively rare because each city-state had a wealth of elementalists in their emply to help identify and deal with such magickal threats.

Enter the Cataclysm

Now magickers have been ousted from the northlands. Hated and feared, selecting anything other than a southern-based magicker now comes with a giant neon sign above their head that reads, "Dangerous critter, kill on sight." This began a horrible cycle of events, both IC and OOC:

:arrow: The Cataclysm teaches northerners that "magick is bad, mmkay?"  Norrthern players begin hunting magickers, killing them on sight.

:arrow: No longer able to enjoy relative peace while they gain enough proficiency to protect themselves from mundane threats, the elementalist guilds are reworked to be given more useful spells earlier and faster progression through the tree.

:arrow: Those players choosing to create northern magickers were now predators or prey, or both. They no longer had a peaceful role to assume within the northern city-state, but were forced instead of be "on the run" and acknowledge that an entire civilization would likely only ever consider them an abomination to be executed as soon as possible.

:arrow: Magickers are pushed out of Tuluk and forced to find locations in which they can survive and practice their craft. These places happen to be the very same places frequented by isolated desert elf and nomadic human tribes, forcing these players to interact with these new magickal threats that normally were not commonly found.

:arrow: Now we have every magicker (not just sorcerers and magickers choosing to raid) running around the northern wilderness trying desperately (or not so desperately) to survive. There are few mundane organizations with which they can interact because most of them consider magickers highly dangerous and will kill them on sight.

This IC event has forever changed the role of the magicker in game. Once a working part of society, in which they could add to the story in a multitude of peaceful and useful ways, they have become a glass cannon aimed squarely at anyone that invades the spaces they've invaded. Magicker numbers seem higher, not because they're more of them, but because the most common interaction is likely a great display of their power. Magickers who would have otherwise been content to create food, water, mounts, and aid a given Merchant House in their tasks are now forced to defend themselves with violent magick. Magick with which the average mundane character cannot compete.

This change in interaction has also changed some perceptions. Some mundane characters, espcially tribals, who used to only have to deal with a few rare magickal threats are now forced to deal with them almost daily. What used to be a rare and mysterious creature has now become a prevalent and dangerous predator to specific (but large) areas of the game.

The influx of these magickal beings fighting for survival causes other groups to engage and, eventually, kill them. Immortals then feel obligated to give magickers even more teeth so that people are appropriately "afraid" of them, but that only furthers the divide of power and makes the non-magickal player feel like an inconsequential and ineffective part of "Magickgeddon."

I know that I've felt this way ever since independant magickers had no viable role in the northlands. And I know others have too. There is no proposed solution, because IC events are IC events, but are there suggestions for a way to allow northern magickers a role other than predator/prey?  I think having so large a group of people considered "hated and dangerous" by so many greatly limits the potential not only of their characters, but of the game itself.

-LoD