Magickers and Nil Reach.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

One time, there were at least two magickers using un spells -ALL OVER THE WILDERNESS- which set off a signal of some kind if the room was entered. I entered a little less than thirty of these in two real life days. I shouldn't really need to explain what that did to my 'magick is rare and scary' meter. We shouldn't go in a direction where this happens to other people too.

[RogueGunslinger]

One time, there were at least two magickers using un spells -ALL OVER THE WILDERNESS- which set off a signal of some kind if the room was entered. I entered a little less than thirty of these in two game days. I shouldn't really need to explain what that did to my 'magick is rare and scary' meter. We shouldn't go in a direction where this happens to other people too.

Bad players will play bad. There's absolutely no reason to do that, even if Nil was removed people should not do that, because it makes no sense, and isn't needed.

[BadSkeelz]

Player behavior will trend towards the "bad" when given enough opportunity and incentive, however. Right now magick code is structured to encourage constant hideout casting. Forcing the mages in to the real world does risk repeating what Silence experienced.

I was talking with IsFriday about this last night and he suggested that nil should only be a useful levellng tool up to about 70% of a spell's power (or whatever is deemed appropriate). You can learn the basics with nil, maybe even proficiency, but to obtain "master class" you need practical experience with the skill. To me this seems like a good compromise.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like that idea.

[Beethoven]

I could dig the 70% thing.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I want to like the 70% thing, but it still feels like an arbitrary compromise. From the perspective of the chalton it's still "Order 66". For mundanes, it still means senseless displays of magick, and for magickers it still means you spend most of your time spamming in a cave.

Maybe it's a bit better, but it's still an air freshener sitting on a manure pile.

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe it's a bit better, but it's still an air freshener sitting on a manure pile.

I think if you really want to get rid of that manure pile, you have to figure out where to move it to. The proper place of magick in the game is as open a question of "how can we make magick as it is now less broke/overpowered/obnoxious/restrictive/unfun." Shoot, answering "what is the proper place of magick in the game" is probably the first step to answering all the other questions.

[Pale Horse]

Shoot, answering "what is the proper place of magick in the game" is probably the first step to answering all the other questions.

[RogueGunslinger]

Shoot, answering "what is the proper place of magick in the game" is probably the first step to answering all the other questions.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50804.0.html

Was going to make it a poll but couldn't think of decent poll questions.

[Lizzie]

I have an idea! Get rid of nil, and require all non-mages to volunteer for mandatory weekly target practice.

Cause - if you don't, you'll probably end up being target practice anyway. I've never liked PKing. But if I had to play a mage who was *required* via the code to use UN to become more powerful, you can bet your bottom dollar there'll be more PKs coming from my characters. I'm not gonna spam-practice on chalton. Just not gonna happen.

[Inks]

Good. That conflict is better than casting nil in a temple until you can PK in one shot with maxed spells.

That argument isn't even one.

[BadSkeelz]

She's saying that she would cast it on PCs. Which would suck, but might perpetuate the Final Struggle against Magick and get us to the optimal point where wearing a Gem in the Gaj gets you ganked before you hit Caravan and Commoner's.

[Inks]

I got it. My point is those PCs would have a far better chance if she made that choice instead of spamcasting at nil to mon and then just zapped people she didn't like.

It's the players choice whether to PK or not and that argument is 100% invalid.

[RogueGunslinger]

Can we be real for a moment? Burglars, assassins, and pickpockets all do the same exact "practice till mastered before really playing their guild" strategy. It's not just a problem with magickers.

[Lizzie]

I got it. My point is those PCs would have a far better chance if she made that choice instead of spamcasting at nil to mon and then just zapped people she didn't like.

It's the players choice whether to PK or not and that argument is 100% invalid.

You missed the part where I said I don't like PK AT ALL. I don't like that part of roleplay. I avoid it. I avoid PKing, because I don't like doing it. I've intentionally PKed maybe - 4 characters in over 10 years of playing. I didn't like doing any of them.

But if it was a choice between spam-casting on chalton just to get to the next power level, or practicing on other characters, and nil was no longer a choice, I'll practice on other characters and fuck my record of avoiding PK like the plague. I'll just join all the other PKers and you can all whine about how the mundanes keep getting targetted, which they weren't when nil was still an option.

[Rokal]

Can we be real for a moment? Burglars, assassins, and pickpockets all do the same exact "practice till mastered before really playing their guild" strategy. It's not just a problem with magickers.

lots of truth in this.

[BadSkeelz]

Can we be real for a moment? Burglars, assassins, and pickpockets all do the same exact "practice till mastered before really playing their guild" strategy. It's not just a problem with magickers.

No, but it's the greatest with magickers. Burglars, assassins and pickets (or warriors or rangers) cannot sit in complete safety tpying in command after command to fully branch themselves and achieve coded usefulness. They have to go out in the world and put themselves at risk. If they choose to interact with people, so much the better.

Heck, even spam-crafting merchants have to risk runs to the bank and shop, or seek people out to learn recipes.

You missed the part where I said I don't like PK AT ALL. I don't like that part of roleplay. I avoid it. I avoid PKing, because I don't like doing it. I've intentionally PKed maybe - 4 characters in over 10 years of playing. I didn't like doing any of them.

But if it was a choice between spam-casting on chalton just to get to the next power level, or practicing on other characters, and nil was no longer a choice, I'll practice on other characters and fuck my record of avoiding PK like the plague. I'll just join all the other PKers and you can all whine about how the mundanes keep getting targetted, which they weren't when nil was still an option.

Would you target players because you're bitter you're no longer possessing nil, or because targeting NPCs other than chalton (scrabs, tarantulas, twitchy men) would actually pose a danger to your PC?

[Armaddict]

Can we be real for a moment? Burglars, assassins, and pickpockets all do the same exact "practice till mastered before really playing their guild" strategy. It's not just a problem with magickers.

I do not, but I don't think I would with mages, either.

Really, this thread I think kind of derailed from where I wanted it to be, into more of a 'nerf mages' concept than what I thought it was, which was creative solutions to the magicker involvement problem without the whole 'just integrate them with everyone else already!'

If we can come up with an idea that gives gemmed mages something to do, as a rule, that is mostly separated but occasionally linking in with the mundaner (as opposed to magicker) plots, then we've hit money.

[Lizzie]

Can we be real for a moment? Burglars, assassins, and pickpockets all do the same exact "practice till mastered before really playing their guild" strategy. It's not just a problem with magickers.

No, but it's the greatest with magickers. Burglars, assassins and pickets (or warriors or rangers) cannot sit in complete safety tpying in command after command to fully branch themselves and achieve coded usefulness. They have to go out in the world and put themselves at risk. If they choose to interact with people, so much the better.

Heck, even spam-crafting merchants have to risk runs to the bank and shop, or seek people out to learn recipes.

You missed the part where I said I don't like PK AT ALL. I don't like that part of roleplay. I avoid it. I avoid PKing, because I don't like doing it. I've intentionally PKed maybe - 4 characters in over 10 years of playing. I didn't like doing any of them.

But if it was a choice between spam-casting on chalton just to get to the next power level, or practicing on other characters, and nil was no longer a choice, I'll practice on other characters and fuck my record of avoiding PK like the plague. I'll just join all the other PKers and you can all whine about how the mundanes keep getting targetted, which they weren't when nil was still an option.

Would you target players because you're bitter you're no longer possessing nil, or because targeting NPCs other than chalton (scrabs, tarantulas, twitchy men) would actually pose a danger to your PC?

If I have to risk my character's life just so that I can branch "cast silk underwear" from my first-tier "cast give-victim-a-booboo" then I'm gonna risk it on a PC, and try for some actual interaction.

[Inks]

Can we be real for a moment? Burglars, assassins, and pickpockets all do the same exact "practice till mastered before really playing their guild" strategy. It's not just a problem with magickers.

And those things won't be maxed or deadly in 5-10 days played, and would have put themselves in danger to get there. Burglars and pickpockets are good at one skill each. If mages took as long as mundanes to master I doubt we would even have people like Skeelz so resentful.

Also Lizzie is basically threatening to PK if this happened...which is actually crazy. Also those PCs would have a good fighting chance if she was casting on them rather than the current system where mon fireball or what have you can be reached with no risk. Lizzie would be causing interaction and taking risks with her PC, as well as causing conflict in the world. A net gain for the game.

This would also cause magick to be feared realistically rather than the kind of artificial fear we have going at the moment.

[BadSkeelz]

No, I'd still hate magick characters. But I wouldn't hate them for that.

[RogueGunslinger]

Can we be real for a moment? Burglars, assassins, and pickpockets all do the same exact "practice till mastered before really playing their guild" strategy. It's not just a problem with magickers.

And those things won't be maxed or deadly in 5-10 days played,

You are so, so, sooooooooooo wrong. Especially if you have 2 karma for 2 skill bumps.



Edit: To apologize for nitpicking this one point, I agree, that they would have to take risks to get there. I'm just saying that if we find a solution for magickers, maybe we should spread it around. I'm partial to fidning ways to make low level skills, if not useful, then at least fun or worth using in some manner.



Edit2: I bet if you added a hidden resistance to magick skill(if there isn't already one) then people would LOVE to cast un shit on themselves.

[Erythil]

Badskeelz did a magician do bad things to you when you were a kid or what

[BadSkeelz]

Just bore me.

[hyzhenhok]

My next magicker will definitely be a sit-in-the-temple-until-maxed one, because I have not had good results from going out for interaction and roleplaying characters before they became dangerous (or useful) with magick.

When players are eager to exercise their PK powers when given an excuse, "useless magicker" is not a good role to play.