Bash -> Subdue?

[Riev]

Straight from one of the Subguild helpfiles:

"By practicing their ability to bash, they learn to follow up with a grappling maneuver, and are able to practice subdue to advanced."


How great would it be, if subdue can be attempted in combat, so long as the opponent is not standing? Efficient and PvP-useful? Nah probably not, but I think it'd start a whole new idea of bruisers/wrestlers/etc

[RogueGunslinger]

I love it. I also love the idea of disarming someone you have subdued.


Edit:

It would be very useful for pvp by the way. Which I think is a good thing. Bash-subdue and have your friend backstab them. Or just bash-subdue anyone who's owning you in combat, throw them east and run west.

Anyways I love it.

[Dar]

Would kind of make HGs a lot more dangerous and make the 'dancing around slow HGs with your quick agile small mosquito' to be totally unworkable.

[Supified]

Maybe I havn't played a combat oriented character in too long (see years), but are we talking about the same subdue?

One thing about this game that still kind of grinds me a bit is the drop off between helpful and helpless.  When you lose all your stun you are helpless (completely) for several real life minutes (15?)  Might as well be an eternity.  Similarly last I recall subdue was a state were you were almost completely helpless.  Sure you can break free, but given the rigid class structure of Armageddon, your classes with subdue as a skill with higher caps, plus the stats that benefit that class, are going to basically be able to handle everyone else as though they were unconscious.  Add race to the equation and it quickly goes beyond messy.

While I get that this game was never meant to be a balanced e-sport, the insta kills that exist (npcs that can do it, or ways it can be done to players) seems to detract from role play.  Risk needs to exist, but there seems to be gradients of risk that quickly become death in this game and it's that drop off existing in too many ways that I find worrisome.  The staff must see this too in some degree by restricting magick (one of the biggest sources of player ability to instagib stuff), but then this could also having been done to reduce the power ceiling of characters to make the game more about role play.

So unless subdue isn't the death sentence I recall it being bash - > subdue sounds to me like a truly horrifying prospect.

[valeria]

It's a completely horrifying prospect.  That's why I like it.

But I'd rather see it be a different skill, one that you have to practice by actually using and that branches off of something else (maybe bash!), so that you can't become Amazingly Deathly just by playing king of the hill with your buddies.

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe I havn't played a combat oriented character in too long (see years), but are we talking about the same subdue?

One thing about this game that still kind of grinds me a bit is the drop off between helpful and helpless.  When you lose all your stun you are helpless (completely) for several real life minutes (15?)  Might as well be an eternity.  Similarly last I recall subdue was a state were you were almost completely helpless.  Sure you can break free, but given the rigid class structure of Armageddon, your classes with subdue as a skill with higher caps, plus the stats that benefit that class, are going to basically be able to handle everyone else as though they were unconscious.  Add race to the equation and it quickly goes beyond messy.

While I get that this game was never meant to be a balanced e-sport, the insta kills that exist (npcs that can do it, or ways it can be done to players) seems to detract from role play.  Risk needs to exist, but there seems to be gradients of risk that quickly become death in this game and it's that drop off existing in too many ways that I find worrisome.  The staff must see this too in some degree by restricting magick (one of the biggest sources of player ability to instagib stuff), but then this could also having been done to reduce the power ceiling of characters to make the game more about role play.

So unless subdue isn't the death sentence I recall it being bash - > subdue sounds to me like a truly horrifying prospect.

I've never seen someone die after being subdued. So there's that.

Edit: In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a successful subdue attempt that was done outside of training or soldier NPC's.

[Miradus]

I saw a guy die to subdue. A magic class, supposedly.

Sitting in the bar, subdued by a half giant who comes back in five minutes later waving the guy's severed head around.

I have not subdued anyone nor been the victim of subdue, but I was left with the impression that if a magic class couldn't get away from it then it's somewhat overpowered and may need some work.

[nauta]

As a point of contrast, I saw someone subdued by a half-giant in an interrogation scene with a templar and a load of others.  She slipped from the grip with one flee, and just walked away from the scene, and made it all the way to Tuluk.

I don't know enough about the subdue code to know how easy it is to escape, but I've always found it easier to just emote out the stuff.

I do know there's a few bugs around subdue. 

o The most obvious is that you can't tell who is subdue-ing you.

o You can subdue someone and drag them around as if they weigh nothing.  Whereas you can kill them and can't lift their body.

I think there are others.

[RogueGunslinger]

I saw a guy die to subdue. A magic class, supposedly.

Sitting in the bar, subdued by a half giant who comes back in five minutes later waving the guy's severed head around.

I have not subdued anyone nor been the victim of subdue, but I was left with the impression that if a magic class couldn't get away from it then it's somewhat overpowered and may need some work.

Heh. Depends entirely on the mage class, but there's quite a few ways they could have protected themselves from that. Just because you have the skill doesn't mean you have the skills. If you're caught unprepared, anything can kill you.

Probably shouldn't piss off two tons of raw muscle and irrationality.

[Riev]

The times I've seen someone subdued, and be dead later, was usually an ARRESTING subdue by the Militia.

I honestly don't see people use it that often, BECAUSE it drops your weapons, makes you super vulnerable, and can be broken by a decent flee skill. Compounded by certain races get HUGE racial bonuses to the skill.


But man. If there was a bash-branch into a subdue? Heck, I don't think allowing subdue during combat would even be that bad, considering a fail would drop your weapons, cause a delay, and leave you vulnerable.

[Dresan]

Master Subdue

Subdue elf
emote tosses ~elf over his shoulder and slams him on the ground
Throw elf here

The elf hits the ground with stunning force, knocking the wind out of them.
The elf's eyes roll to the back of his head.

emote blinks for a moment, as an amused smirk crosses his face.

draw knife
draw knife

At master subdue should allow you to  throw your victim inside the same room, causing hp/stun damage based on strength,  lag them significantly to them with much less to you, allowing you to be able to draw your weapons and initiate combat. There would always be a small  potential to knock them out. The reason is you are taking much more of a risk trying to subdue someone (with no weapons yourself) as opposed to have weapons out and just bashing/sapping them. More risk, should have a bit more reward at master.  

[Qzzrbl]

Master Subdue

Subdue elf
emote tosses ~elf over his shoulder and slams him on the ground
Throw elf here

The elf hits the ground with stunning force, knocking the wind out of them.
The elf's eyes roll to the back of his head.

emote blinks for a moment, as an amused smirk crosses his face.

draw knife
draw knife

At master subdue should allow you to  throw your victim inside the same room, causing hp/stun damage based on strength,  lag them significantly to them with much less to you, allowing you to be able to draw your weapons and initiate combat. There would always be a small  potential to knock them out. The reason is you are taking much more of a risk trying to subdue someone (with no weapons yourself) as opposed to have weapons out and just bashing/sapping them. More risk, should have a bit more reward at master. 

Only problem I see with lagging the slammer more than the slamee is the opportunity for a resubdue and more slamming.

Does Arm even have a structure for cooldown on skills aside from lag?

Otherwise kinda dig the idea.

[Dresan]

Good point.

I suppose lag should roughly be equal then, so if you decided to subdue them they should get a chance to flee. Or if you pull out your weapons in an attempt to attack, they should be about ready to standing up and getting ready to flee or pull out weapons themselves. I think that would be pretty fair to both. Again, with the idea being that bash is potentially more deadly anyways so if the player attempted to subdued first, they were probably trying to talk/rp first as opposed to just bashing the person down and killing them before they could stand/draw weapons and/or flee.

[Riev]

Given how subdue works in game:




But in all seriousness, given an extra second of lag to the thrower (or just give the same lag as throw does now) would give the one thrown an extra moment to gather themselves, ESPECIALLY because of the lag associated with readying your weapons.

If you choose to try and resubdue? And they fail and still can't flee? Well. I suppose someone doing that would have to be looked at, but I would see no problem with subdue -> slam code, which does a little hp/stun damage but causes them to be sitting like the throw code.

But I still want subdue in combat. If you drop your weapons, and pass the subdue check, then you really ARE a great melee fighter. If you fail? You still drop your weapons, and now you're on a delay. Like a bash, only REAL dangerous.

[Dresan]

Yeah, I'd be okay with people using being able to use it during combat, effectively stopping combat BUT you drop your weapons during the attempt. Not sure why anyone would use it vs bash though, unless you are insanely confident in yourself but nothing wrong with options.

[Riev]

Yeah, I'd be okay with people using being able to use it during combat, effectively stopping combat BUT you drop your weapons during the attempt. Not sure why anyone would use it vs bash though, unless you are insanely confident in yourself but nothing wrong with options.

Well, initially it was just a thought because of that helpfile. But really, it gives a different non-lethal avenue for obstacle removal. Bash will knock them down, make it easier to kill the person you need to kill.

Subdue, on the other hand, when properly trained? Would give you a way to non-lethally remove them from the situation. Or, open them up for a strike from someone else. The idea that it can be done in-combat, too? I could see it being a last-ditch effort to subdue that warrior on the other side, while your group runs away (Chiao-tzu style)

[Warsong]

My reservation with this is the fact that subdue seems to circumvent all the usual checks and balances for combat. With bash, if your opponent is a very skilled combatant, they aren't necessarily screwed because high defensive skills will keep them relatively safe.

Anytime I see subdue used for anything except NPC soldiers apprehending criminals who don't want to risk putting up a fight against the law, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You can spend ungodly hours training up, say, a legendarily powerful ranger or assassin, but somebody with a decent subdue skill seems able to completely ignore all that fighting prowess and just grab you.

Currently, you at least have the option of engaging them in armed melee combat before they have time to try to wrestle you to the ground. If such a feature were to be implemented, I think it would at least have to come with an increase to the flee skill cap for all the non-warrior classes.

[RogueGunslinger]

Anytime I see subdue used for anything except NPC soldiers apprehending criminals who don't want to risk putting up a fight against the law, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You can spend ungodly hours training up, say, a legendarily powerful ranger or assassin, but somebody with a decent subdue skill seems able to completely ignore all that fighting prowess and just grab you.

That could be said for anything. You can spend ungodly amount of hours training subdue, only to have some assassin backstab you and you have zero recourse.

[Supified]

My reservation with this is the fact that subdue seems to circumvent all the usual checks and balances for combat. With bash, if your opponent is a very skilled combatant, they aren't necessarily screwed because high defensive skills will keep them relatively safe.

Anytime I see subdue used for anything except NPC soldiers apprehending criminals who don't want to risk putting up a fight against the law, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You can spend ungodly hours training up, say, a legendarily powerful ranger or assassin, but somebody with a decent subdue skill seems able to completely ignore all that fighting prowess and just grab you.

Currently, you at least have the option of engaging them in armed melee combat before they have time to try to wrestle you to the ground. If such a feature were to be implemented, I think it would at least have to come with an increase to the flee skill cap for all the non-warrior classes.

I think MMA would tell us that this is one of the arguments for subdue code?  Brawlers who neglect their grappling suffer greatly to an opponent who can use it. 

I think this thread has done well to make me less concerned.  . . Except the psycho who suggested we should be able to instant knock someone out, because you might as well say we should have an instant kill.  Knock out def = death.  Nearly 15 rl mins of complete helplessness?  Come on, now that is op.  Sorry, broken, broken is the thing beyond op.

[RogueGunslinger]

Sap?

[evilcabbage]

backstab?

[Miradus]

I am against any mechanic that can kill me swiftly without means of mitigation.

Backstab or something similar exists in almost every other mud I've ever played, but there are generally mechanisms in place to make it "fair". One good implementation of it had levels of awareness the player could set that paid attention to their surroundings (with the negative aspect of setting too high of an awareness level meant your regen suffered). On highest level of awareness you became very difficult to backstab.

The issue I see here is that you have multiple PK mechanisms which do not appear to be properly mitigated across the board AND in a permadeath mud where the stakes are so much higher. The stakes could only be higher if each PK death in Arm also charged your credit card.

[RogueGunslinger]

I am against any mechanic that can kill me swiftly without means of mitigation.

You can die very easily to a whole lot of shit in this game. The best way to mitigate them when it comes to other players is usually through roleplay. Sometimes though, when you can't sass your way out of a situation, it will come down to code. When it does, there actually are ways to mitigate these things. How to mitigate a bash-subdue, or a sap/backstab? Mount, flee, equipment, watch, scan, listen, war spices, magick etc...

[Miradus]

I dunno. I'm not going to play the victim in someone's "Reservoir Dogs" roleplay session just because I happened to decide to rest alongside the road. And there seems to be an awful lot of complaining here regarding people who (like me) just ride away rather than talk to others in a potentially hostile situation.

[RogueGunslinger]

I mean. The game is already like that. Generally that isn't going to happen though. Instead that person will likely shout at you from a ways off, come in, look at you, wave and then leave.

But if you piss someone off, or step into the wrong territory, or do any number of things wrong based on roleplay, you'll be glad if bash-subduing you is the worst that happens.

As for running away from or avoiding strange people in the wastes. I feel like it's kind of the logical thing to do. 

[Miradus]

As for running away from or avoiding strange people in the wastes. I feel like it's kind of the logical thing to do. 

Like the time a naked half giant invited me into his tent.

I thought, "Would I do this in real life? No." and mounted up on my imaginary desert lizard and rode off swiftly.

[Riev]

I dunno. I'm not going to play the victim in someone's "Reservoir Dogs" roleplay session just because I happened to decide to rest alongside the road. And there seems to be an awful lot of complaining here regarding people who (like me) just ride away rather than talk to others in a potentially hostile situation.

This is one of those scenarios that people use to say "I don't want things forced on my character because what if..." that doesn't happen. For the most part, kidnappings and the like aren't fun for the person being kidnapped, and since you can't GUARANTEE that you will be on at the same time as your captors, it ends up being a quick scene or something anyway. If you're resting on the side of the road, outside of a city, I sure as shit hope someone grabs you and takes your gear.


I can see that there would need to maybe some -SOMETHING- to assist with a master at subdue just effectively ending combat at their whim and will. But subdue CAN still fail due to size/racial restrictions, and typically the subdued gets a couple chances to flee before something happens.

Bash -> Subdue, I suppose, would remove that capability. Maybe if raw defense score could be factored in?

[Warsong]

Sap and backstab take an incredible amount of work to get to higher levels. Subdue can be used reliably by any 0-day half-giant.

[RogueGunslinger]

Sap and backstab take an incredible amount of work to get to higher levels. Subdue can be used reliably by any 0-day half-giant.

Sap and backstab do not take incredible work to get higher levels. In fact they're some of the easier skills to advance in. Tack on skill-bumps and you can have maxed backstab in a couple RL weeks.

A half-giant requires 3 karma, backstab and sap don't.

[Riev]

I don't know, he makes a good point, RGS. Halfgiant are 3 karma but that didn't stop a slew of subdue->kill back in the day. Karma is a level of trust, but breaking that trust once to completely bang over someone else's role isn't unheard of.


I think it would be fine in height/weight didn't factor SO HEAVILY into subdue, to the point that a master subdue/master flee PC would have a hard time escaping a novice subdue halfgiant.

It WOULD be very annoying to be in the middle of combat, winning, and a halfgiant just picks you up. Though I sure would love to see someone bring 3 halfgiants to a spider fight, only to watch them pick up spiders with subdue, and throw them back into the nest.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't even understand your point let alone his.

If someone bashes you, and follows up with subdue, instead of just murdering you ass I don't really understand how it can be considered over-powered when its purpose is to NOT kill someone. The instances where you'll be losing a fight and have to subdue someone to survive? Incredibly rare and that's only going to happen on a half-giant or someone who has master-subdue. Because fleeing will 100% be a better option than risking the chance of dropping your weapons mid-fight.

Comparing it to subdue-kill is sort of silly. Because the way it would be used 99.9% of the time is in situations you would have already won, or situations where you're trying your best NOT to kill your target, but simply incapacitate them. As it stands if you want to stop someone from going all murdery, your only option is to kill them or knock them out.

I also find it 100% realistic that a half-giant would be able to pick someone up who was attacking them mid-fight. Because all the fancy and flashy moves your maxed warrior can pull off shouldn't mean shit in the face of two thousand pounds of muscle and fury.

You're also neglecting the fact that to pull it off would take both a successful bash and a successful subdue.

[evilcabbage]

I don't even understand your point let alone his.

If someone bashes you, and follows up with subdue, instead of just murdering you ass I don't really understand how it can be considered over-powered when its purpose is to NOT kill someone. The instances where you'll be losing a fight and have to subdue someone to survive? Incredibly rare and that's only going to happen on a half-giant or someone who has master-subdue. Because fleeing will 100% be a better option than risking the chance of dropping your weapons mid-fight.

Comparing it to subdue-kill is sort of silly. Because the way it would be used 99.9% of the time is in situations you would have already won, or situations where you're trying your best NOT to kill your target, but simply incapacitate them. As it stands if you want to stop someone from going all murdery, your only option is to kill them or knock them out.

I also find it 100% realistic that a half-giant would be able to pick someone up who was attacking them mid-fight. Because all the fancy and flashy moves your maxed warrior can pull off shouldn't mean shit in the face of two thousand pounds of muscle and fury.

You're also neglecting the fact that to pull it off would take both a successful bash and a successful subdue.

half giants definitely do not weigh 1000 stone my friend.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't even understand your point let alone his.

If someone bashes you, and follows up with subdue, instead of just murdering you ass I don't really understand how it can be considered over-powered when its purpose is to NOT kill someone. The instances where you'll be losing a fight and have to subdue someone to survive? Incredibly rare and that's only going to happen on a half-giant or someone who has master-subdue. Because fleeing will 100% be a better option than risking the chance of dropping your weapons mid-fight.

Comparing it to subdue-kill is sort of silly. Because the way it would be used 99.9% of the time is in situations you would have already won, or situations where you're trying your best NOT to kill your target, but simply incapacitate them. As it stands if you want to stop someone from going all murdery, your only option is to kill them or knock them out.

I also find it 100% realistic that a half-giant would be able to pick someone up who was attacking them mid-fight. Because all the fancy and flashy moves your maxed warrior can pull off shouldn't mean shit in the face of two thousand pounds of muscle and fury.

You're also neglecting the fact that to pull it off would take both a successful bash and a successful subdue.

half giants definitely do not weigh 1000 stone my friend.

What do they weigh?

[evilcabbage]

i think it was closer to 50-70 tenstone?

[RogueGunslinger]

Nope, it's 75-90.

Sorry I exaggerated 16 lbs.

[evilcabbage]

well.

round two:

whoops, i was wrong.

[RogueGunslinger]

Don't worry I didn't know for sure either, had to look up the last HG I made in my logs to find out.

[Armaddict]

In to note that subdue/kill is nowhere near as effective as it once was.  Unless you have a buddy.  Anecdotal evidence:  I tried when I played my last two half-giants.

[Patuk]

As a point of contrast, I saw someone subdued by a half-giant in an interrogation scene with a templar and a load of others.  She slipped from the grip with one flee, and just walked away from the scene, and made it all the way to Tuluk.

I feel slightly offended over you leaving out 'bare-chested' and 'supply-free' from this otherwise true account, sir.