The Rise of the Metagame

[Beethoven]

I didn't say the game system doesn't encourage them. I'm saying that stuff should be fixed so nobody feels the need to do that, but honestly the solution in the meantime is not to go around breaking character to skill up because it's normal or everyone does it or you don't want to be underskilled when the shit hits the fan.

[Synthesis]

Meh, I've never seen anyone legitimately break character.

More often, it's just that people who know what they must do OOCly create a character that will allow them to do those things, ICly.

The only major problem with this is assassins, I think...because to master backstab, sap, piercing, and bludgeoning...yo...you gotta rack up an extreme body count, unless you do it all on critters...which...is kinda lame...but...hmm...I really don't know what's more lame:  murdering hundreds of 'rinthers to become badass, or thousands of chalton.

[Fujikoma]

I didn't say the game system doesn't encourage them. I'm saying that stuff should be fixed so nobody feels the need to do that, but honestly the solution in the meantime is not to go around breaking character to skill up because it's normal or everyone does it or you don't want to be underskilled when the shit hits the fan.

So you would rather continue being a victim of the swole jock syndrome, another notch on their murder belt, as they shit on yet another little plot that had next to nothing to do with them because, boredom? I'm saying, I would never leave a scene I was participating in to go twink. If, in the process of getting my tiny skill-grind on, I bump into some potential player interaction, I will drop what I'm doing to pursue that, there is where my priorities lie... however, there, sooner or later, comes a time where this crap is going to end up in your hair, and I, for one, will not just roll over when it does.

[Beethoven]

I didn't say the game system doesn't encourage them. I'm saying that stuff should be fixed so nobody feels the need to do that, but honestly the solution in the meantime is not to go around breaking character to skill up because it's normal or everyone does it or you don't want to be underskilled when the shit hits the fan.

So you would rather continue being a victim of the swole jock syndrome, another notch on their murder belt, as they shit on yet another little plot that had next to nothing to do with them because, boredom? I'm saying, I would never leave a scene I was participating in to go twink. If, in the process of getting my tiny skill-grind on, I bump into some potential player interaction, I will drop what I'm doing to pursue that, there is where my priorities lie... however, there, sooner or later, comes a time where this crap is going to end up in your hair, and I, for one, will not just roll over when it does.

Dude, twink all you want; that's not what I'm talking about, and it doesn't bother me if you do. Just stay IC with it. I can't believe this position is controversial. Maybe people don't break character and that's great if they don't, but people have been saying that breaking character is a thing that happens, so I'm saying they shouldn't.

[Delirium]

The concept that you have to break character or do totally OOC shit to raise your skills is adorable... and wrong.

Some skills are more difficult than others, yes, and you may need to change around your fighting style some for weapon skills. Weapon skills and kick/bash/disarm are the culprits, really. Your character just has to be willing to experiment with different strategies when fighting, instead of being railroaded into "THIS IS HOW I FIGHT FOREVER".

Maybe, instead, your character adapts what weapon and style they are using to to what they're fighting, how the fight is going, or what their opponent is doing. Gradually, they become more adept at using the right weapon and style for each situation. I mean, it's a personal choice, but it's not so black and white as "THIS IS MY AXE, I WILL FOREVER USE THIS AXE".

Just don't be that dipshit in the grasslands with a training weapon or going barehanded... not only is it unnecessary, we all know what you're doing and it is, indeed, ridiculous.

It would be nice if you learned regardless of success or failure, but on the flip side, you'd just end up with people becoming world-renowned fighters by hunting tregil all day.

After some experimentation with the code I'm actually okay with the status quo, save for the weapons skills issue... it does take some code smarts, but honestly, we have all the information we need to figure out how it works. All this speculation and nonsense about having to act out of character to get those gainz is well, just that, speculation and nonsense.

As for the swole jock syndrome, here's a thought... stop worrying about it.

Play your character, have interests and goals and likes and dislikes, and you will have way more fun than if you whined about how Joe Amos over there might have better slashing_weapons than you do. In the end, that swole jock is going to die to something dumb or just be generally disliked because they're boring, and you'll have actual stories to tell.

[Fujikoma]

lol, ok, Delirium, I can see it hasn't been an issue for you if you missed what I was actually yammering on about. .. but as for the rest of your post, plus one. I like to use emotes about fighting stances and movements to be indicative of my character's skill level. Using training weapons in the grasslands, I'll agree, is kind of rediculous. I once, completely by accident, ripped a scrab's ass off with a sparring weapon before realizing, whoops, and embarassingly switched it out for my real blade, looking around sheepishly in the hopes no one noticed.

EDIT: When Amos gets jealous of the fact that people like you and not him, and decides to use the authority vested in him by (advanced) slashing weapons and the increased combat clan status it's given him, you may have to start coming up with a new story rather quickly.

EDIT2: Further, I realize there's likely about ten or twenty players that think I'm vaguebooking them right now. Trust me, you folks aren't unique or special enough to vaguebook specifically.

[Miradus]

Meh, I've never seen anyone legitimately break character.

More often, it's just that people who know what they must do OOCly create a character that will allow them to do those things, ICly.

The only major problem with this is assassins, I think...because to master backstab, sap, piercing, and bludgeoning...yo...you gotta rack up an extreme body count, unless you do it all on critters...which...is kinda lame...but...hmm...I really don't know what's more lame:  murdering hundreds of 'rinthers to become badass, or thousands of chalton.

DIKU mud base.

I would propose a system of skill linkage. For instance, tie piercing gains to backstab gains. A gain in piercing has a chance to link to a gain in backstab because, realistically, if I can stab someone in the front I can also stab them in the back. There are a significant number of skills which would quite realistically link to others.

Yes, I know that would promote everyone being that much more badass that much sooner, but honestly ... how many of us have a goal of becoming mediocre at anything we do? Even something as simple as real life gardening I started with the intention of becoming a BADASS gardener.

Probably the biggest problem with the mastery of skills is in the combat code. Nobody cares if I am a master forager and I can find that dirty root faster than anybody else. But from what limited experience I have with the combat code, a master combat character can easily defeat 4-5 other players simultaneously. You're approaching Skyrim/Assassin's Creed levels of badassery there.

[Beethoven]

I would prefer a secondary backstab command (kind of like steal and plant are based on the same skill) that does no or very little damage but applies the same delay. It would represent a sudden blunt strike or even just a touch to a critical area. That way you could practice backstab while sparring.

[Malken]

To me, it doesn't matter if you spent 5 RL years of your life in 1997 mapping out the grasslands with some graph papers and some crayons, if I can save a new player from quitting out in frustration because they are totally lost somewhere in the middle of nowhere by handing them a nice map, I would (unfortunately, I'm all out of nice maps since I deleted the last one I had when I quit Arm forever for the #3241429 time long ago).

I also don't care if it took you 10 years to realize that steal branches from sneak on a burglar, or whatever. If I can save a new player from quitting out in frustration because they have made really bad character creation choices, I'll gladly hand them a skill sheet or whatever.

I think that a 15 year veteran should always start on the same footing as a total n00b, or at the very least very close in equality, and vice versa.

Many of our best players and roleplayers all have these skills sheet or maps or whathaveyou and it doesn't stop them or prevent them from playing great roles and great characters - I don't understand the mentality of wanting to remain in the dark ages of 1995 or whatever for many here, but that's always been a debate around here as well.

If you are a new player and you don't want game "secrets" handed out to you then you can make a choice of not looking at them. If you are a 15 year old veteran and feel like those game mechanics and secrets should remain something that everyone need to struggle like you did forever ago then I can only and firmly disagree with that thought. We have the same amount of shitty players and great players as we did 5, 10 or 15 years ago, except we now have a lot more shittier and great players to play with than we did - Having to struggle through a mire of badly mapped areas and old game mechanics that should have been updated eons ago do not make you the great player that you might think you are - 1 day n00bs should have the same chance of achieving your greatness right from the getgo - That's how we'll get new players AND keep them.

That's my opinion at least.

[Synthesis]

I would prefer a secondary backstab command (kind of like steal and plant are based on the same skill) that does no or very little damage but applies the same delay. It would represent a sudden blunt strike or even just a touch to a critical area. That way you could practice backstab while sparring.

Backstabbing during sparring has been explicitly prohibited for a long time.

They even modified the training daggers from stabbing to piercing specifically so people couldn't do it.

Soooo...yeah...it's highly doubtful that they're going to code a new command just do enable us to do what they already spent time on preventing us from doing.

[Fujikoma]

I would prefer a secondary backstab command (kind of like steal and plant are based on the same skill) that does no or very little damage but applies the same delay. It would represent a sudden blunt strike or even just a touch to a critical area. That way you could practice backstab while sparring.

Kidney punch. Wait, that's almost as bad, erm, I don't have a fix, really. Rubber daggers?

[Delirium]

Eh, if swole jock can use his advanced slashing and combat clan to kill your PC, your PC lost, that's all. Skills are a very effective way of getting stuff done, but so is having allies.

If you're playing a racial or social minority in that situation, well, you're gonna have a hard time.

[Beethoven]

Well, that's what I'm talking about, Synthesis. This command would exist BECAUSE backstabbing in sparring is not kosher, and that is one of the main reasons that skilling up backstab is so ridiculous and hard to justify. I think the reason backstabbing in sparring was banned was because backstab represents an explicit desire to kill and is extremely dangerous to use on a friendly sparring partner. This command would not represent a desire to kill, so it would be different. Sure, it's probably never going to happen, but that's my suggestion.

[Synthesis]

Well, that's what I'm talking about, Synthesis. This command would exist BECAUSE backstabbing in sparring is not kosher. I think the reason backstabbing in sparring was banned was because backstab represents an explicit desire to kill and is extremely dangerous to use on a friendly sparring partner. This command would not represent a desire to kill, so it would be different. Sure, it's probably never going to happen, but that's my suggestion.

No, it's not that backstabbing "represents a desire to kill."

It was because if you're good at backstabbing, you can instagib someone even with a training dagger.  So yes, it was extremely dangerous, but it's just a shitty-code problem, not a RP-based justification.

[Beethoven]

I've seen both reasons given by staff, the fact that it doesn't RPly make sense to slide your sparring dagger between the ribs of your sparring buddy, and the fact that it actually is quite possible to kill your so-called "friend" in this way. Those two reasons are obviously connected, and both of them would be addressed by having a practice strike implemented. Yes, it's a pipe dream, but it's my pipe dream and I'm sticking with it.

[Fujikoma]

Eh, if swole jock can use his advanced slashing and combat clan to kill your PC, your PC lost, that's all. Skills are a very effective way of getting stuff done, but so is having allies.

If you're playing a racial or social minority in that situation, well, you're gonna have a hard time.

Codedly, you may stand a better chance of getting away to exact vengence after some significant combat and/or stealth-skill twinking, particularly if a miscalculation was made by your new-found enemy. My personal playstyle, these are secondary, but I won't roll up a character, or have them facing potential dangers, that doesn't work on these skills as often as they can when nothing else is going on.

[Jingo]

Meh, I've never seen anyone legitimately break character.

More often, it's just that people who know what they must do OOCly create a character that will allow them to do those things, ICly.

The only major problem with this is assassins, I think...because to master backstab, sap, piercing, and bludgeoning...yo...you gotta rack up an extreme body count, unless you do it all on critters...which...is kinda lame...but...hmm...I really don't know what's more lame:  murdering hundreds of 'rinthers to become badass, or thousands of chalton.

I maxed back stab in 15 days just by backstabbing kryl on patrol. The hard part was getting the backstab in before the buff warriors and rangers killed them. I actually setup a series of alias's to dismount, backstab and then remount. It wasn't long after master that I was able to frequently perform one hit kills

Parry took 40 days played on the same character. This character sparred daily.

Weirdly it also took 40 days played to master hide. I had actually thought it was maxed earlier.

I ignored sap and bludgeoning throughout the character.

I think the bigger problem is that players frequently assume that aide types can become uber assassins inside the city walls. To do this, they likely require some sort of rp-based skill-bump from staff. IMHO the best way to play an assassin is to join a military clan that patrols.

[Miradus]

1 day n00bs should have the same chance of achieving your greatness right from the getgo - That's how we'll get new players AND keep them.

That's my opinion at least.

It's a valid opinion, and as a new player I'll validate it to a certain extent.

When I started, I brought 4 other players from my previous mud over with me. All four quit after their first week. One quit because he got ganked by someone 3 rooms outside of the west gate of Nak when he had only barely found the gate in the first place. The others quit for reasons such as not liking permadeath or because they didn't feel like they were going to be able to learn enough about the game world. So now it's just me here.

However, I *DO* feel like I have as good a chance at greatness as anyone. I just am not handed it with my first (or twentieth) character. There is no "BADASS" subguild which makes you immediately into the hero of the story. You start out (at best) as a redshirt or stormtrooper #793. Oh, who am I kidding? You're starting as the guy whose job it is to clean the latrine after the redshirts and stormtroopers use it. The game requires a lot of metagame knowledge to succeed and every character builds upon the 10/20/40/80 characters who went before. I can scatter five bodies in the wilderness between reboots and each time the mantis head comes up, I learned something new about the game. (Such as don't screw around with mekillots).

I've never, ever played a multiplayer game which didn't give an advantage to players who knew how the system worked or had played it before. We're not going to change that here. Since an RP enforced mud is primarily about storytelling, a lot of people are going to want to Mary Sue their character since the RNG simply will not respect your wishes to be the ultimate badass you always wanted to be.

[Armaddict]

Skinner's Box analogy does not relate to this discussion in your current form, because your assertion is that the only food available to be rewarded with is an upper-tier skill level.  Instead, view it as more of a maze, that has minor shifts but a general path to follow, where divergences from it often result in the same result but a new and interesting path.

What I mean is this:  I also enjoy badassity.  However, the difference is that I enjoy my character becoming a badass.  As Synthesis said, I create my character with my end-goal in mind.  I do not enjoy tressy-tress.  I do not enjoy merchants (whether in guild or role).  I enjoy being strong, either through manipulation, combat, or influence.  I create my characters with this in mind.  My hunters hunt.  My criminals crime.  They do what they are supposed to be good at, and as a result, generally get good at it.  This is in keeping with how characters progress.  They do what they do, they live their life, and over time, they start to excel in those things they should probably excel in, because that's what they -do- for their living and for their station, etc.

The difference is when you take an OOC objective and implant it into IC behavior.  I.e. I want this guy to be a badass, so I'm going to engage in this ritual.  Hunters should hunt.  Should assassins just go around killing a bunch of people?  Herein lies the difference in opinion.  I say you can, but you should be held accountable; You are going around killing people.  My assassins certainly don't, because it is not in their interest to be widely -known- for such.  Some characters will have have a different interest than that.  Mine tend to look for every advantage they can put to use in order to find success.  My assassins get good at combat through realistic combat, not forced combat, and as a result, are usually far less skilled than others.  By your version of the Skinner's Box analogy, that should not be rewarding to me, because the food is high skills.  That is untrue;  My food is the long journey and scenery and circumstance that occurs to get him there, and when he reaches it, it makes me fist pump in joy because the story has worked out in favor of my hero (or villain).

This is what I mean.  The code does not force you to implant behavior into the game; that is the player decision to force certain scenarios for an OOC goal they have in mind, where it starts to sway the IC story and narrative.  It may seem minor, but it is, in the end, what I say has led to this rise.  There is a difference between the character who says "I want to be good at combat.  I should kill lots of people." because the player is viewing NPC's as their source of training, and the character who says "I need to be good at combat to continue my work, I should seek training in some way."  The latter ends up immersing in a lot different waters, and yes, sometimes is unable to find their source of training.  But it maintains the integrity of the hardcore RPG vs the MMORPG.

To use Synthesis's phrase...no one wants to be a useless character?  The in-character drive to not be useless, with real IC consideration on the part of the character, and manipulation of situations and actually striving through real means contributes to the game.  The 'fuck it, i'ma farm for 30 minutes and ignore the game then carry' (dota reference) method results in skill gains at the expense of that integrity, even if on a minor degree.  That is an out of character drive being drawn in, and on that front is where information gets misused and becomes detrimental.  Which is where shitty guides that tell you to fight everyone but not kill them so that you don't get caught come from.

Many of our best players and roleplayers all have these skills sheet or maps or whathaveyou and it doesn't stop them or prevent them from playing great roles and great characters - I don't understand the mentality of wanting to remain in the dark ages of 1995 or whatever for many here, but that's always been a debate around here as well.

I think you're misrepresenting the argument.  It isn't 'information is bad', it's 'It's become more acceptable to misuse it.'

As you've said, many good roleplayers have had access to it for a long time.  The difference is in how they used it.  Staff has never come down on me for knowing what skill branches from what.  Or where things are.  It's when that knowledge starts being used inappropriately, and thus affecting IC happenings with the OOC desire for that pursuit, that you start seeing detriments to the game over it.

[Jingo]

Martial artists are able to practice lethal techniques all the time without killing each other. I'd be fine with allowing a fake backstab skill ig for sparring situations. At the cost of making the skill take longer to train.

[Malken]

I think you're misrepresenting the argument.  It isn't 'information is bad', it's 'It's become more acceptable to misuse it.'

As you've said, many good roleplayers have had access to it for a long time.  The difference is in how they used it.  Staff has never come down on me for knowing what skill branches from what.  Or where things are.  It's when that knowledge starts being used inappropriately, and thus affecting IC happenings with the OOC desire for that pursuit, that you start seeing detriments to the game over it.

Fair enough, I haven't played nearly enough in the last year or so to notice if it has become worst than any of the ~15 years I've played in the past.

[Synthesis]

I don't think "ignoring the game to farm" is really an issue.  Fine, you have to hunt to skill up, maybe...but there are plenty of PCs looking for the giblets from all the critters you're splattering along the way.  That affords plenty of opportunities for interaction.

It ain't "templars going to the party" type interaction, but every fancy-ass merchant motherfucker out there started off buying scrab legs from some indie PC trying to branch throw.

[Fujikoma]

I can see through continued debate that I'm agreeing with those I was debating, more or less. I do engage in semi-twinky behavior, if my character is poor and hungry, they're not above rolling that NPC for their loot or leaping from the rooftops with a string of drool and daggers drawn down onto that poor rat for a hope at a slice of meat, or chasing that damn lizard down and hopefully not getting wtfpwned in the process. If they're not, then they may be motivated to do so out of compassion for others who may not have as much as them that they've grown closer to. There comes a point at which coin and skillgains, however, begin to get in the way of reasonable RP, which, if I just wanted to solely powergame, I could easily find another mud or game that would cater to those needs more effectively. I've never really wanted to be as uber badass as I possibly could be with a character, because once you hit competence and gains level out, time spent vs. risk vs. reward makes less and less sense, because, as Delirium hinted, all those coded skills are less and less effective against social contacts and the like, which raises their priority, if your character values survival, which, they should.

[Armaddict]

It was a poor analogy, I admit.  It was just the first one to pop into my head.

I meant basically putting the desire to reach the 'carry state', i.e. being able to whomp everyone else's ass (whether PC or NPC) as priority above the interaction with the game itself.  I am a code-oriented player.  I love when I hit the badass state.  But it is indeed subject to circumstances of the game and other player's actions, where if I put that on a backburner to just insure I failed my skills regularly I'd hit that state a lot faster...but with a lot less content and development in the process.

I'm just saying the former, the using the metagame to insure progression is fast and steady, contributes far less at the least, and is a detriment at the greatest, while the latter, the keeping yourself available for IC opportunities to progress, takes longer but ends up in an all around better state of the game for everyone involved.

I never get 'fist pumping joy' at being a badass and achieving badass-like things unless there's a degree of good fortune to it.  Playing the game like a skill-gain robot doesn't reward nearly as much.

While this leads inevitably to the 'to each their own' argument, that is precisely what I'm saying.  The reaction to it has shifted.  There is a rise in acceptability/perceived need of the metagame.  Neither am I some paragon of roleplay.  I have grey areas when it comes to discussions of code and code use with staff and other players.  But I also do have very clearly defined lines as far as what is roleplay and what is trying to reach level 60 so I can play end-game content.

[Asanadas]

Skinner's box is a perfect analogy. Like delirium said, if the twink kills you, you lose. The only way to stop that from happening, is to press the button in the Skinner box. I don't see how that so hard to understand. It's like that for every single game out there with even the slightest player versus player environment.