Combat style balance.

[titansfan]

I want opinions on the different styles....whether two handed, dual wielding, shield use....what's the best and why? Should it be the way it is, whether its out of balance or not?

[Delirium]

I'm not really sure about this thread. Suffice it to say that this can easily be found out with some experimentation with a combat character in game.

[Saellyn]

Penta-wield is the best style.

[hopeandsorrow]

Persona experiences

Two-handed seems to give an accuracy + damage bonus (not entire sure)

Sword and Shield is just the defensive bonus of the shield.

Dual wield (I heard) Bonus to parry? Also higher DPS in theory since you're striking with two weapons.

Always seemed balance to me.

[Chettaman]

Two handed is the best because only milk drinkers use small weapons.

it's all balanced, though. It all makes sense to me. Go armageddon staff! (drop the confetti)

[titansfan]

Not asking for code stuff. Just opinions on what you think about the current state of these in game. What you've noticed and so on.

[Synthesis]

Not asking for code stuff. Just opinions on what you think about the current state of these in game. What you've noticed and so on.

All three work just fine.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I think they're pretty balanced. Dual wield seems to be more prevalent, but I tend to think that's more about branching than it is about sheer preference for most classes. (Also, if you're playing a rinthi it's sort of defacto because large weapons and shields are generally out of place for the setting.)

You can look up "two handed" and "dual wield" on arm.org and it gives a little info there.

Sword & Board
+ shield
- only one attack, with no extra perks.

Two handed
+ parry
+ attack frequency
+ hit damage
- No shield

Dual Wield
+ parry
+ 2x attacks instead of 1.
+ Weapon type doesn't seem to be a factor to hit. So use a whip. Or a razor, if you want.
+ Less F'd when you get disarmed.
- no shield

Personally, if I already have parry, I'll go etwo over dual wield like 75/25. Between the attack frequency and damage bonuses, it feels like I'm outputting more damage. But a fast character with high dual wield may be able to top that due to more (lighter) attacks. But I don't feel like one is the "clear" winner.

[Molten Heart]

I want opinions on the different styles....whether two handed, dual wielding, shield use....what's the best and why? Should it be the way it is, whether its out of balance or not?

They each have advantages and disadvantages and situations vary too much to have a "best" style.

Shields are useful when fighting something that hits hard when you think you're probably going to get hit no matter what. The shield might block some of the attack, making it less. If there's no avoiding getting hit, using a shield is the best.

Dual wield is great for those with the parry skill, it's easier to parry with two weapons than with one. It's also great for injuring an opponent more quickly because it gives twice as many attack. It's best for fights that need to end quickly and maximum avoidance is necessary. If someone is a fairly competent fighter, this is probably the most useful style, things die more quickly and for those with parry, offers the best defense. Good for elves and other high agility fighters.

Two-handed is the one I have the least experience with. It's more effective at inflicting harm on others but less effective at parrying than either other style (IMO). It'd be great for someone not being attacked. Also good for stronger fighters using larger, two-hand only, weapons.

[Synthesis]

However, I will say that some of the things being said in this thread are...pretty far from accurate. 

[nauta]

Hi, your friendly documentation nerd popping in to say: if something you experience runs against what the documentation on the various styles has, flag it over in the Improving the Help Files thread, or here and I will.  From my limited reading (and even more limited experience) the help files do seem to explain the advantages and disadvantages of each style pretty accurately.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Combat

[hopeandsorrow]

However, I will say that some of the things being said in this thread are...pretty far from accurate. 

Don't tease, share.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

According to the parry docs, "Using a shield improves your character's chance of success." Interesting.

So I guess all 3 styles buff parry. So... don't play one-armed characters, I guess?

[Synthesis]

However, I will say that some of the things being said in this thread are...pretty far from accurate. 

Don't tease, share.

Some things you just have to play around with yourself, extensively.

Also, nauta, the help files are...kind of technically correct, maybe-ish, but also misleading, especially with respect to shield use, when you consider guild/subguild caps on the skill...and there's some stuff that's very important that is straight-up omitted.  Anyway, they're as correct as they're likely to ever get, because the Staff are never going to show us the math.

[Malken]

Two shields and headbutt.

[najdorf]

the best is bare handed, because nothing beats the coolness of knocking a fully armed opponent with your fists, then flashing a cool emote when they are in sleep state.

[Armaddict]

the best is bare handed, because nothing beats the coolness of knocking a fully armed opponent with your fists, then flashing a cool emote when they are in sleep state.

I recall someone charging in with weapons and attacking Berlian with swords, and him getting up with bare fists and knocking him the fuck out.  It was pretty awesome.

On topic, all three styles are completely viable with different strengths and weaknesses.  Some will say only one is viable, but they are pretty much wrong and trying so hard to meta they missed it.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

On topic, all three styles are completely viable with different strengths and weaknesses.  Some will say only one is viable, but they are pretty much wrong and trying so hard to meta they missed it.

FIN.

[Miradus]

However, I will say that some of the things being said in this thread are...pretty far from accurate. 

The hit rolls and equations aren't displayed to the player, so unless I had code access I'd never know.

On other games I have written client-side scripts that evaluated over hundreds of fights the number of parries, blocks, hits, critical hits, or whatnot ... but here that would be extremely unlikely to be very accurate since the same mobs can pop with different stats. Even if you're sparring and keeping track, you'd have to account for your hidden skill gains and your opponent's skill gains.

So I pretty much just take the help files at face value. At my low levels of character time, I haven't seen anything thus far which is so wrong as to get me killed. If you search the game universe you will be hard pressed to find someone more twinky than me, but I haven't (so far) seen enough of a difference in the styles for me to diverge from one character concept or another.

[Saellyn]

Just find a style you like best that fits your character and stick to it. That's the most surefire way to find out. Over a bunch of character lives you'll eventually figure it out.

[Armaddict]

On topic, all three styles are completely viable with different strengths and weaknesses.  Some will say only one is viable, but they are pretty much wrong and trying so hard to meta they missed it.

FIN.

I don't know what this means.  Is this good or bad?  Is this +1 or -1?

[Malken]

On topic, all three styles are completely viable with different strengths and weaknesses.  Some will say only one is viable, but they are pretty much wrong and trying so hard to meta they missed it.

FIN.

I don't know what this means.  Is this good or bad?  Is this +1 or -1?

It's the French version of /thread

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Yeah, olde timey movies used to end with the word "FIN". An argument could be made that Marvel should do the same thing, just so that we know how much longer we need to hold our pee in. :p

[titansfan]

After seeing some of the opinions, I have to say that my own is in the realm of etwo being the single best when not considering skills such as disarm and what not. Etwo has rather high bonuses (it seems) if you have high-medium strength characters while weapon/shield and dual wield, do not. There is also the idea of defense, which, with a shield you can block most attacks, as long as you are much higher skill than the attacker. But if they are even, then I see it as etwo winning out even over a parry skill that's higher or equivalent. I've played many characters and I've seen it repeatedly. There seems to be a major difference in how the combat styles work according to skill level.

I've had really good dual wield characters....I have had shield users be good, but overall my etwo characters have always been the winners over even advanced fighters not using disarm. Ofcourse, I'm saying this with the whole high-medium stat range for strength and over agility counted in.

My two cents.

[RogueGunslinger]

There are way too many variables to know for sure if you won because of the style or because of stats/skills/luck.

So just pick one that fits your character. They're all good.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

That perceived difference could be caused by a lot of things though... One thing is that etwoers are frequently strength heavy characters. Not always, but frequently. Rangers and Assassins have a pretty good reason to choose dual wield, and they have a pretty good reason to prioritize AGI.  On the other hand, that dwarf warrior you hate to spar with in the Byn definitely prioritized his STR. For him, etwoing is almost secondary to the fact that he could pull an argosy with his pecks, but it is the style he uses to wipe the floor with you none-the-less.

If etwo's damage increase works the way it does in D&D (not saying it does, but its possible) it's a multiplier. In D&D you get a static 1.5 x STR added to your damage. So your strength bonus is 0, you got no extra damage. If your str bonus is +4, you get SIX damage added to your attacks across the board.  So it's entirely within the realm of possibility that etwo is more effective for strong characters than for weak ones.

The other thing I've noticed is that your current HP seems to effect combat performance. I've had fights between 2 highly skilled warriors where we would both parry/block everything for the first 2 minutes of the fight straight, then all of a sudden one of us would land a hit on the other and the fight would be over within the next 30 seconds. Etwo = higher damage = the one hit you land nerfs your opponent more than it would if it were one-handed.

Again, I think everything's pretty even on the whole, but I personally usually take etwo over dual wield for my warriors.

[Inks]

I like how they are all useful for different things.

[Hauwke]

I am probably wrong with this but here is how I see it:
Dual wield gives:
2 attacks when you attack theoretically upping your dps which can be upped by high agi or high str I guess.
It also gives (I think at least) 2 rolls to parry or a significant boost to it one or the other im really unsure.

Sword and board gives:
It gives you a parry chance and a block chance. Basically giving you a theoretically 'doubled' defense.

Etwo gives:
As that one guy earlier said, I think it gives a multiplier to damage from strength and/or skill.
And I think the helpfile mentions base defence up maybe... I forget.


My favourite is sword/axe/club/spear or knife and board simply because I hate dying in any kind of game and generally prefer to be the tank since losing hp pisses me off when I am taking huge hits in a game.
That being said I can definatly see the reason for a dwarf/mul/halfgiant going etwo or even dual wield. They have  the strength to wear armor and the hp to really not need it. Etc etc etc game is good seems unbalanced but I think it is balanced.

[Delirium]

If you take some time and go through the helpfiles for each combat style, it lists out very plainly the benefits and negatives of each.

The rest can easily be found out through IG experimentation.

Characters will have the styles they prefer for IC reasons - the assortment of combat styles we have now is flexible enough to cover most any preferences.

My only wish was that smaller weapons (swords, knives, axes, clubs) had a bonus in city environments, knives especially, and larger weapons (spears, staves, etc) a bonus in hunting scenarios.

Mounted combat should require weapons at are at least medium-sized... using knives while on inix back is a hilarious mental picture.

Still, what we've got now works pretty well, and allows for lots of flexibility in roleplayed and coded combat styles.

[Armaddict]

Mounted combat should require weapons at are at least medium-sized... using knives while on inix back is a hilarious mental picture.

I've had thoughts of this as well, with recent discussion on it.  Certain weapons being required to be able to fight from beetle-back, otherwise you suffer a large penalty to the number of attacks you get, due to having to wait for extreme proximity.

Sword and board gives:

Also worth noting...I have not seen the code, so I cannot say for certain, but there has, with my warriors, been a strong correlation between bash success and having a shield equipped.

[Hauwke]

The bash increase is possibly like that. I doubt it is a direct +bashing-nerds but still, In my mind the bonus (if any) would apply in the sense that you can use the added weight of the shield.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Also worth noting...I have not seen the code, so I cannot say for certain, but there has, with my warriors, been a strong correlation between bash success and having a shield equipped.

Oh, no doubt about it dude.