Witch Loving

[Patuk]

I, too, think the 'lol butthurt' tactic has no place on these forums.

[BadSkeelz]

To be fair to them, I am little bitter over the laser light show   It's a prime example of how Magick as a Theme and a Mechanic can shit over everyone else's fun, turning what would have been a wholesome and bloody event into something contrived and frustrating. (Don't forget the fire seeds or mass magickal disarmings!)

I find Magick uninteresting to play, uninteresting to play around, and uninteresting to speculate on (except for why it sucks ). It always comes across as a forced contrivance.

From an meta plotting standpoint, Magick is a retarding force. No need to think about investing in new technologies or supplies, we'll just have a magicker summon something. Don't try and change the political landscape because you have zero chance of triumphing over the magickally-imbued powers that be. Don't infiltrate spies in to organizations, just have undetectable drovians or psions do the work for you. Every plot is at risk of falling prey to "Well, let's just have Amos come out of his spellcasting hideyhole and do it for us."

Magick apologists on the GDB scare me more than magickers in game because I'm afraid they're going to hoodwink us all into thinking casual Magick is something good for the game.


To try and get us back on topic:

Magickers should be feared in Allanak. They should also be resented. Why? Because they fucking cheat. They do. They're gross and unnatural and weird, but they still have powers that are normally reserved for the servants of God. And when they get uppity about their status or mundanes get,Tek-forbid, comfortable with those powers... that's when you should start grinding your teeth. Magickers are walking reminders that You Are Trivial. The Gemmed temples don't burn down every forty years because commoners think they sour the beer or make peoples' dicks fall off, they burn down because those things have a life of security and relative comfort and privilege simply because they can do a few tricks.

Northerners and Tribals have very different mindsets, of course. Of the big three (Allanak, Tuluk, and Tribals) my preferred are the tribals, if only because a lot of work has been done by Staff and players to make tribal-mages more than just a set of spells.

[Asmoth]

Everytime I have tried to play a d elf or tribal mate I'm told, there are no openings right now.

And I've only see a few of them.

[Synthesis]

Everytime I have tried to play a d elf or tribal mate I'm told, there are no openings right now.

And I've only see a few of them.

> scan

[Asmoth]

Everytime I have tried to play a d elf or tribal mate I'm told, there are no openings right now.

And I've only see a few of them.

> scan

This made me laugh, I have to admit.

[wizturbo]

From an meta plotting standpoint, Magick is a retarding force. No need to think about investing in new technologies or supplies, we'll just have a magicker summon something. Don't try and change the political landscape because you have zero chance of triumphing over the magickally-imbued powers that be. Don't infiltrate spies in to organizations, just have undetectable drovians or psions do the work for you. Every plot is at risk of falling prey to "Well, let's just have Amos come out of his spellcasting hideyhole and do it for us."

You can be a force for change in this...  Roleplay the backlash that should come from utilizing these magickers.  Don't deal with the Templar that has a bunch of Gemmed following her around, instead go bribe the one that doesn't.  You know that Oashi that always has magickers around him?  Well maybe your merchant shouldn't go out of their way to sell to them.  Maybe they're always out of stock of whatever goods the Oashi want, and while super apologetic and polite, they're thinking "Fuck you magicker lover...I'm going to sell my ware to those self respecting Borsails instead."  That kind of thing rarely happens, because everyone wants to "win" and doing something that might create conflict with magick-wielding enemies is scary.  As a result, many of the expected consequences for being friendly with magickers is downplayed.

If I had my druthers, I'd lean on staff to make this more apparent via animations by helping create the perception of these negative consequences.

[Asmoth]

From an meta plotting standpoint, Magick is a retarding force. No need to think about investing in new technologies or supplies, we'll just have a magicker summon something. Don't try and change the political landscape because you have zero chance of triumphing over the magickally-imbued powers that be. Don't infiltrate spies in to organizations, just have undetectable drovians or psions do the work for you. Every plot is at risk of falling prey to "Well, let's just have Amos come out of his spellcasting hideyhole and do it for us."

You can be a force for change in this...  Roleplay the backlash that should come from utilizing these magickers.  Don't deal with the Templar that has a bunch of Gemmed following her around, instead go bribe the one that doesn't.  You know that Oashi that always has magickers around him?  Well maybe your merchant shouldn't go out of their way to sell to them.  Maybe they're always out of stock of whatever goods the Oashi want, and while super apologetic and polite, they're thinking "Fuck you magicker lover...I'm going to sell my ware to those self respecting Borsails instead."  That kind of thing rarely happens, because everyone wants to "win" and doing something that might create conflict with magick-wielding enemies is scary.  As a result, many of the expected consequences for being friendly with magickers is downplayed.

Then Oashi hires the gem loving templar to silence your impudent moanings.

MANTIS HEAD.

[BadSkeelz]

It's more cost-effective to dissuade people from playing magickers than to be a martyr in game trying to fight them. You can't win a conflict with magickers and their allies because they have too much stacked in their favor. Maybe if I was an AoD officer again, or a noble or Templar. But if you're just a commoner, the only sensible course of action is avoidance.

I just don't RP with magick and hope they extend the same courtesy to me.

[wizturbo]

Then Oashi hires the gem loving templar to silence your impudent moanings.

MANTIS HEAD.

Okay?  Then roll up another character and do it again.  Or better yet, play a sponsored role where that Templar is going to get into a lot more trouble fucking with you.

Play a Borsail noble and use your enormous wealth in anti-Gemmed campaigns.  Subsidize merchants with generous gifts who refuse to deal with the Gemmed.  Makes friends with the Templars who have similar beliefs.  Make allies with House Fale, which historically has very anti-magicker views as well.  Hire thieves to steal from the Gemmed.  Poison their water.  If the Gemmed start behaving themselves, make shit up and spread false rumors about them to fan the hate flames again.  

If a Templar tries to intervene, now you've got an awesome rivalry to work with.  Use your massive political clout to try and make that Templar your bitch.  Maybe you'll get yourself killed all over again...  I promise it'll be a fun and memorable character though!

[BadSkeelz]

Why should we have to sacrifice our time and characters to make up for the short-comings and choices of others?

Magick-favoring players will play how they want to play. That's fine. I'm not going to go out of my way to make things onerous for them.

They're like sinkholes, just another fixture of the Armageddon landscape. Either you have the skills to deal with them or you just hope you don't walk in to one. I'm not going to roll up a PC to specifically ride into a sinkhole any more than I'm going to roll one up to specifically piss on the Gemmed in game.

[wizturbo]

Why should we have to sacrifice our time and characters to make up for the short-comings and choices of others?

Magick-favoring players will play how they want to play. That's fine. I'm not going to go out of my way to make things onerous for them.

You aren't sacrificing your time or characters...  you're role playing.  You just aren't choosing to role play a character that follows path of least resistance at every opportunity.  You have principles, and you stick to those principles, even if it means you get closer to the Mantis Head for doing so.

And BadSkeelz...  I think you're under estimating how enjoyable having an opposition is for magick-favoring characters.  Rivalries are by far the most fun thing you can possibly have in Armageddon, you aren't ruining anyone's day for hating on their magick-loving character, you're probably making their day.

[BadSkeelz]

Then we get a thread in a few months from disgruntled ex-Magickers saying how they can't get anything done in game cause of the hate.

Disengagement and avoidance is the best strategy, IC and out.

And BadSkeelz...  I think you're under estimating how enjoyable having an opposition is for magick-favoring characters.  Rivalries are by far the most fun thing you can possibly have in Armageddon, you aren't ruining anyone's day for hating on their magick-loving character, you're probably making their day.

Again, I'm not going to give someone the satisfaction of a martyr to beat on. Certainly not when they've picked an (intentionally) overpowered guild that likely has very dangerous friends. There's a reason the Gaj has an echo of people moving away from the bar when a Gemmed takes a seat. They're not worth engaging.

[Beethoven]

I typed up a big long thing but ultimately realized that I only really have three short things to say.

1. I may be a magick apologist on the GDB, but I'm not for casual magick. That kind of cheesy crap is why I don't play other MUDs. I think a lot of my fellow magick advocates feel the same way. It only feels like magick if it's treated like magick.

2. Lightshow RPTs aside (and I hated that DBZ-esque stuff as much as the next guy), I guess I don't understand the complaints that everyone is constantly getting magick shoved down their throats. If you are in a clan or role that requires dealing with magick, then yeah, you're going to have to deal with magick. If you are a super long-lived character with their fingers in every pie, you are going to have to deal with pretty much everything in your lifetime. But most of my PCs have never dealt with magickal shit. Sure, they've seen magickers, and maybe seen a couple of residual magickal effects out in the wilderness, but no casting, no magickal plots, no being forced to work with magickers. If magick "cheapened" their skills it was a total non-factor because magick was not something they had to actively compete with, ever. I guess your experience has been different, but maybe you were just unusually unlucky and I was unusually lucky.

3. I actually don't mind disengagement and avoidance. I think things should be more like that in Allanak, rather than than fiery rage. Because like it or not, gemmers are a tool of the state and of one of the most powerful Noble Houses, and um, they can also do freaking magick. I know a lot of people want to see them as powerless and oppressed (more than everyone else already is), but I think it fits the setting more if they're just people you wish didn't exist and wish you didn't have to see, but you're probably going to leave very well alone for fear of being hexed. This sets them apart in flavor from other undesirables like breeds and elves.

[lostinspace]

If as a mage I started with all but a few spells left to branch, I would gladly give up the nil reach. I'd rather be immediately able to do the things I want to do as opposed to nil casting a bunch first. It would be great because you would just naturally progress in a spell as you needed to make use of it, and you wouldn't have to find some cave or temple to hide in while grinding for the spells you need to function independently.

[Synthesis]

If as a mage I started with all but a few spells left to branch, I would gladly give up the nil reach. I'd rather be immediately able to do the things I want to do as opposed to nil casting a bunch first. It would be great because you would just naturally progress in a spell as you needed to make use of it, and you wouldn't have to find some cave or temple to hide in while grinding for the spells you need to function independently.

LOL.  Okay.  That's like, every PC, if you substitute "skills" for "spells."

Welcome to Armageddon.

[BadSkeelz]

If as a mage I started with all but a few spells left to branch, I would gladly give up the nil reach. I'd rather be immediately able to do the things I want to do as opposed to nil casting a bunch first. It would be great because you would just naturally progress in a spell as you needed to make use of it, and you wouldn't have to find some cave or temple to hide in while grinding for the spells you need to function independently.

I wonder. Would that be so bad? You'd have more magickers running around, sure, but they wouldn't all be quite so annoying since they won't be rocking mon spells at 10 days played. Gives you more chance to claim their skulls for the skull throne interact with them at some level other than "I am fully branched, acknowledge me!"

[Synthesis]

I wonder. Would that be so bad? You'd have more magickers running around, sure, but they wouldn't all be quite so annoying since they won't be rocking mon spells at 10 days played. Gives you more chance to claim their skulls for the skull throne interact with them at some level other than "I am fully branched, acknowledge me!"

Every mage class is going to be played the same way until they develop their critical safety spellset to mon.  (That is--as far away from any potential PK situation as reasonably possible.)  The only thing you can do is make the timeframe to reaching that critical safety spellset shorter or longer.  At any rate, the end-result will be the same:  a seemingly-fully-branched magicker who is moderately difficult to kill by mundane means when sufficiently prepared.  That's basically all you're -ever- going to see in a no-law zone, unless you've found a noob or happened upon a very risk-comfortable veteran player in the early stages of skilling up, because everyone knows what the deal is:  until you get that critical safety spellset up and running, you're like chalton-level on the PK scale.

[whitt]

Every mage class is going to be played the same way until they develop their critical safety spellset to mon.  (That is--as far away from any potential PK situation as reasonably possible.)

[Asmoth]

Could be solved by having a magick skill that advanced as slow as combat skills.

Then there would be less insta-amazing mages.

[BadSkeelz]

I think that would increase the problem that originally spawned this thread, actually - mages being buddy-buddies with mundanes. A slower spell grind would encourage more cautious play. They may just hunker down to spamcast even more, or they would try and interact with the rest of the population to secure protection and company for that grind. I guess the latter wouldn't be so bad since they'd be weak and we could kill them more.

I'd rather all skills leveled up as fast as mage skills. Maybe we wouldn't all play so cautiously then.

[Asmoth]

I think that would increase the problem that originally spawned this thread, actually - mages being buddy-buddies with mundanes. A slower spell grind would encourage more cautious play. They may just hunker down to spamcast even more, or they would try and interact with the rest of the population to secure protection and company for that grind. I guess the latter wouldn't be so bad since they'd be weak and we could kill them more.

I'd rather all skills leveled up as fast as mage skills. Maybe we wouldn't all play so cautiously then.

Well, that's my one problem with the way Arm has been in the past, and sorta some praise for how it is now...

Lemme explain.

In the past you could be friends with a sekret magicker for a long ass time.  And have no idea they were a magicker.  Then they become a magicker and if you don't immediately run to the nearest templar, you're a bad player.

Now it seems to have slipped into the realm of PC policing versus Staff RP policing, which I'm fine with, but it feels like the control has slipped too far towards (We don't govern your RP) because I happen upon mundanes being buddy buddy with magickers all the time.

So I guess like anything there needs to be balance.  Do I expect you to instantly condemn your best friend to death by Templar or Mob because you find out they are a wicked abomination with no ill intent towards you?  Nah.

Do I expect everyone to hang out near the Water temple and try to become friends with every facewrap that walks in because food and water for free is cool?  No.

Honestly, I think some of the documentation needs to be a little more "loose" than "THIS MUST BE THIS WAY." and then people could roleplay it appropriately, to their pleasure or demise.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[BadSkeelz]

I think I Do. I also don't really think it's any worse now than it was months or years ago. The docs seem fine. I think players are just inclined to play to the exception in all things, which here manifests as a high number of mundane/magick PC pairings.

Of course, we could always make targeting a Gemmed with a say or emote a crim-flagging action.

[boog]

I think I Do. I also don't really think it's any worse now than it was months or years ago. The docs seem fine. I think players are just inclined to play to the exception in all things, which here manifests as a high number of mundane/magick PC pairings.

Of course, we could always make targeting a Gemmed with a say or emote a crim-flagging action.

Lord Borealis Oash, stuck in jail again for ordering his water mage to go to the estate and fill up the casks while in public. Drat.

Or Lord Borealis' aide. Ugh, that'd suck.

[Pale Horse]

Are we really on to mage-hate in the GDB hate cycle, already?  I thought it would take a little longer..

..oh, that's right.  We were able to skip over Gypsies, what with a giant friggin' magic volcano reducing them and their water-slides to ash!!!

I would have expected a lot more mage-love on the GDB for that feat!  I'd vote Tektolnes for Highlord, but..he kinda sorta already is and putting his magick-might and magic-wielding suppressors in all yah faces to let you all know that this world is really a Witch's World!

[BadSkeelz]

A kill with magick is no true kill.