Subguild/Guild Helpfiles - Feedback Requested

[nauta]

If they are re-arranging things, then the argument that runs from "it's already out there anyway" to option #4 doesn't have as much teeth, since the skill lists on coughcough will be deprecated -- and potentially, providing there's no leak, it could remain a secret for quite a while.  (That said, I still voted #4, because I can think of several other good reasons to put it out in the open: planning a character concept, for one.)

I'm also a big fan of keeping the magickal skill branches hidden from even the magicker -- you could even have the spell trees and their branches randomize (per magicker or per year).

[Desertman]

I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

[Alesan]

I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

At least one person stated they would change their vote to show levels if they could. So subtract at least that. In fact, subtract two - I originally voted for skills + branch but not level, but after consideration I'd like to know in some way what skills are masterable, if not necessarily what all the skills reach.

[KawaiiBear]

I'm having a hard time understanding the motivation for not wanting to show skill caps. It's honestly superfluous at this point since the veil's long been lifted and anyone can get this information by googling it or visiting jcarter.org, but are there any advantages for not showing the specifics other having a one up one newer players who are too honest to cheat?

[Desertman]

If it were up to me we wouldn't show skill levels at all outside of letting merchants know when their crafting skill was adequate to submit their mastercrafts.

I feel the game lost something when we started showing skill levels at all.

#veteranuphillinthesnowbothwayscomplaints

[hopeandsorrow]

I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

That's an actual issue with polls that use first past the post system (Also known as winner takes all).

Typically, with winner takes all, you keep choices Binary.

Unless we're going to do The single transferable vote but then we would have to run the poll again.

Not that any of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, I just wanted to talk about voting systems.

[Delirium]

I would change my vote to show skill levels. The more I think about it, the more I think how many concepts could be crippled if you couldn't ultimately grow in that direction due to not knowing where your ultimate limits will be.

Having to learn ooc mechanisms through ic experience kinda sucks.

However - my vote foe hiding magick or otherwise ic sensitive details from those without the karma levels to unlock them still stands.

People will always find ways to cheat but that at least helps keep the mystery alive for those who want it.

[Alesan]

I would just like to note that there is actually a higher number of votes for NOT listing what levels the skills max out at.

While I personally like it how it is, I do want to make sure people realize that FEWER people collectively voted for listing the levels of all of the skills.

As it sits 26 people voted to show all skills and what levels they reach.

31 people have voted to NOT show what levels the skills reach.

52 people have voted to show the list of skills, if nothing else.

That's an actual issue with polls that use first past the post system (Also known as winner takes all).

Typically, with winner takes all, you keep choices Binary.

Unless we're going to do The single transferable vote but then we would have to run the poll again.

Not that any of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, I just wanted to talk about voting systems.

It's a very valuable point if it changes how people interpret the choices and results of the poll.

[LauraMars]

So at least 4 people who initially voted to hide skill levels would now vote to show skill levels if they could (myself included).  Bit nitpicky to point it out, but that number doesn't seem to be going the other way.

[Beethoven]

It doesn't seem nitpicky to me, since it does change the results if 4 votes were removed from option 3 and placed in the option 4 category. It makes it 27 against showing skill levels and 31 pro.

Of course, it's kind of hard to verify who voted for what, so I don't think this can be taken into consideration.

[Alesan]

It doesn't seem nitpicky to me, since it does change the results if 4 votes were removed from option 3 and placed in the option 4 category. It makes it 27 against showing skill levels and 31 pro.

Of course, it's kind of hard to verify who voted for what, so I don't think this can be taken into consideration.

It's also a bit difficult when you consider the number of people who pay no attention to the GDB at all.

[Dresan]

I voted for show it all, for a couple reasons.

First of all, its really something the staff should have done long before you could google the information. The reason is because much of that information out there, dated as it may be was given to players from their buddies who were staff. There are alot of people here who talk to other players OOCly through messengers, some of those players become staff and in the past have clearly had no problems passing down all types of information whether code or plot. People here also meet OOCly and have no problem exchanging all kinds of information too.

Some of these people, some of these hypocrites I should say, then comes over here to tell others 'Find Out IC'. And this has been going on for years, long before you could just google the information.

Secondly, I am all for keeping a lot of things secret like plots, details of magick and locations just to name a few but mundane character skills shouldn't be one of those things. As its been mentioned it puts newer players at such a huge disadvantage. No one should be wasting their time playing something they aren't going to enjoy, and this is just another hurdle for new players.

Finally staff has recently been asking for feedback. This has been such a boon to the game. I really hope for it to continue. I can't wait to discuss mundane guids. However its annoying that we still cannot talk about relevant skills freely. I think one guild should have one skill, or another guild should have another skill removed so it doesn't feel so op. I can't really talk about these things when there is still this culture of secrecy with some staff members despite the skills and other things I'm talking about are listed in the helpfiles, are available on google, and are already mentioned several times in the gdb and perhaps even in the very same thread by other players and even staff members.

I feel like the policy on what we will be allowed to talk about in regards to character skill code here also needs to be reaffirmed after this change as well. We have staff members who have no problem talking about the results of testing the code to see the effectiveness of offense skill vs weapon skills, but then we can't even mention that rangers get wilderness stealth like its mentioned in the game help-files on the GDB without getting edited? Its frustrating, so I hope with this change comes a more clear policy too.  

[WanderingOoze]

I voted for the first option, I like things as they are personally.  
Then again I like figuring stuff out the hard way, and still am
Relatively inexperienced when it comes to knowing "what guild/subguild
can do what and how well" But, im in the minority on this and can
Simply choose to not look at the official lists just like I chose
Not to bother googling those "other" sites.

[CodeMaster]

i can get excited for my next role just from reading the guild's help file.  I hope the story like ICness of the guild help files remains intact

skill lists or careful revising of the abilities paragraphs would probably be a net benefit for playability.  I'd rather see comparisons (they are second to none at x, they are competitive with warriors at y) than explicit levels (they can get x to journeyman).  more demanding on the help file writers

on mobile

[Tuannon]

Personally I'll still pick something that sounds kinda like what I want to play and not bother to read the skill lists in depth.

But then again I haven't been really into the nuts and bolts of the game since the dark days of Cyberpatrol. So yeah.. I still don't know the Known like the back of my hand, I don't have a map drawn out and I don't know every class skill list and every branch requirement.

And frankly, I don't want to.

Derail aside, I would like a full disclosure for people who want it and skin deep disclosure for people who want that.

If for example you want to investigate the House Servant subguild.. the 'shallow' help file might give a brief example of a House Servant and what they would do. But optionally the skill list is there if required in a help file or info bloc referred to by the shallow one.

[Medivh]

I would also like racial skills and their caps shown too.

[Lizzie]

Also for any actual skills lists/trees - I'd definitely like to see them as an *optional* hyperlink from the standard help file.

The Guild_Lizzie is a must-have for anyone wanting to polish their nails. They can root around in the scrublands, their natural home, to find bits and pieces of materials to make polish, and easily whittle orange-sticks to push back their own cuticles.

Blah blah blah blah you can find the skill tree here: (with the hyperlink that directs you to the skills list, which is otherwise hidden from the website)

[WanderingOoze]

Also for any actual skills lists/trees - I'd definitely like to see them as an *optional* hyperlink from the standard help file.

The Guild_Lizzie is a must-have for anyone wanting to polish their nails. They can root around in the scrublands, their natural home, to find bits and pieces of materials to make polish, and easily whittle orange-sticks to push back their own cuticles.

Blah blah blah blah you can find the skill tree here: (with the hyperlink that directs you to the skills list, which is otherwise hidden from the website)

+1

Yeah, this would be great for people like me

[Norcal]

Show all. Tell all. Except for gickers..say nothing..know nothing.

Adhira........don't changer my rangers...please.

[valeria]

Also for any actual skills lists/trees - I'd definitely like to see them as an *optional* hyperlink from the standard help file.

The Guild_Lizzie is a must-have for anyone wanting to polish their nails. They can root around in the scrublands, their natural home, to find bits and pieces of materials to make polish, and easily whittle orange-sticks to push back their own cuticles.

Blah blah blah blah you can find the skill tree here: (with the hyperlink that directs you to the skills list, which is otherwise hidden from the website)

Yes please. 

I'm one of those who has never used outside sources to cheat because I really don't care, and also because it pleases me to unexpectedly branch something.  I voted skill trees only and not levels, by the way, but I'm not really married to the concept as long as I don't have to see the levels.  What I like about not knowing about skill levels and branching trees right now is that I can just play my character without worrying about coded advancement.  If I can see the levels, I'll want to attain the levels.  I'm not sure I have the discipline to not care if the information is staring me in the face, but if I have to go the extra mile to seek it out, I'm not going to.

[RogueGunslinger]

Knowing OOC info is hardly cheating. Unless every staff member is a cheater when they play a character.

[Jihelu]

I don't necessarily want to know every branch and every max level but I do like knowing "I will only make it to JMan in X skill for ranger"

[Adhira]

Show all. Tell all. Except for gickers..say nothing..know nothing.

Adhira........don't changer my rangers...please.

No promises.

[Rathustra]

Hi guys. I've gotten done re-writing all the 0 karma subguild help files and a few of the extended subguild ones. Here's an example of the format I've decided on, using the prevailing opinion here:

Code Select Expand


OUTLAW:

  Outlaws live at the edge of civilisation, operating out of
lawless settlements such as the Mul Outpost and Red
Storm.  These individuals are adept at sneaking their way
quietly across terrain to get the drop on their victims. 
Where the rugged landscape calls for it, Outlaws are also
able to climb to hard-to-reach areas.  Stormy weather is
no impediment to their travels either.  Outlaws are also
quite self-sufficient, being able to craft their own spears
and knives as well as patch up any damage to their armor.

  Outlaws can learn knife making, spear making, armor
repair and direction sense to the level of advanced.  They
can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb. 


This and the rest of the changes will be going live once the subguild renovations are complete.

[wizturbo]

I really like that format Rath.  

While I personally like transparency in skill levels and such, some people may appreciate it if you have a 'spoiler' style coding, or simply having the font coloring match the background on the second paragraphs for those of us who prefer to be surprised.