GMH Conflict: Reflections and Replies

[KankWhisperer]

I personally think these changes are intended to make the GMHs effectively interchangeable. It used to be more complicated, especially with the closure of Tuluk,in regard to which GMH had what in terms of geography, politics, and products. This is frustrating in that it benefits two of the GMHs a lot more because they already are effectively interchangeable and are gifted advantages in geography to make them more competitive while the third house will never be similarly gifted an equivalent advantage in terms of product and politics in the current game world.

I also don't like how it effectively destroys and craps on any lifesworn customs and culture than may have sprung up. I think if you take away a perk you should add another perk such as open up one Outrider, Expansion Division, or Falcon? spot.

[Ender]

If a single cronie can take you out with your SEKRITS then that's just poor planning on the part of PC leadership.  Life swearing being the barrier for entry to plots is a poor way to play this game.  Take risks and bring more people in.  Yea, they could try to fuck you over, but if you KNOW that going in, maybe leaders will plan better and get better contingencies in place to cover their asses.

That being said, a lifeoath has never kept me from murder/corruption/betraying my superiors when it made sense for my character.  Infact, I've probably experienced and committed more betrayals involving lifeoaths than I have without.

[Ender]

I personally think these changes are intended to make the GMHs effectively interchangeable.

I completely disagree with this.

Salarr and Kadius are somewhat similar, but both have very different goals and ways to achieve those goals as well as holdings, culture, and history.

Kurac is an entirely different beast.  Kurac is the ONLY non-tribal clan in the game that is not in Allanak.  It's literally the only choice for non-tribal PCs who want the benefits of a large coded clan but do not want to play in Allanak.  I imagine this will make Kurac one of the most popular clans in the game despite any changes to how oaths work.  

the change to Lifeoaths will not detrimentally effect the GMHs in my opinion, quite the opposite, I think it will make them more appealing to know you can jump into a GMH without a lifeoath and have fun and be involved.

[555]

I personally think these changes are intended to make the GMHs effectively interchangeable. It used to be more complicated, especially with the closure of Tuluk,in regard to which GMH had what in terms of geography, politics, and products. This is frustrating in that it benefits two of the GMHs a lot more because they already are effectively interchangeable and are gifted advantages in geography to make them more competitive while the third house will never be similarly gifted an equivalent advantage in terms of product and politics in the current game world.

I also don't like how it effectively destroys and craps on any lifesworn customs and culture than may have sprung up. I think if you take away a perk you should add another perk such as open up one Outrider, Expansion Division, or Falcon? spot.

I, too, would like specialty divisions reopening. As far as one merchant house not having the pull or advantages of the others, whose fault is that? As far as I know all three have compounds in the major cities, but only one has a mega-fortified outpost with instant death all but ensured for any aggressive act whatsoever, or just being picked out and targeted for, reasons. I'd say that's a pretty hefty perk right there, while the other merchant houses have to expose themselves to the dangers of politics daily, one can completely insulate themselves from these pressures, and, if a merchant house wants more pull in the city, some PC representation in the city in question would do wonders, imo, as well as pull in business they otherwise might not get. Sure, it's not safe, you expose your people to some good old fashioned MCB, but that's the entry fee.

[LauraMars]

This "change" really just seems to be formalizing something that had already been in place for awhile.

I've known plenty of characters that have left their GMH employment after their contract was over, and gone on to work for other organizations (maybe Kurac was different with this; Kadius and Salarr seemed pretty easygoing)...but the problem seems to have been that the "correct" way to do things was never clearly documented, and now it is.  So that is good.

[BadSkeelz]

Kurac is already pretty popular. I think they may have to work harder to stay that way, since they can no longer slap a life oath on anyone with a pulse and a skill timer and keep them in the Outpost. Or not; Kurac is a pretty sweet gig if that's the kind of game you want to play.

I do think this puts a little more onus on PC Leadership to Lead and make their clans interesting. PC Leadership of all GMH is going to have to engage their underlings and make them want to stay in their clan and earn that lifesworn position. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is going to depend on the individual leaders and how they want to play.

[seidhr]

Having more visibility into the roadmap for what Nergal has planned for GMHs, this change will both increase conflict and make GMHs more interesting to play, simultaneously - even if you don't see it, yet.

[Nergal]

Of course, PCs can always be killed. I doubt anyone will argue otherwise.

However, the idea that a PC can be trusted with information because they are life-sworn is dispelled. There are now other real factors at play when a leader has to decide who to trust, or who not to trust.

As far as current life-sworn employees in GMHs, the opportunity is open to those who wish to preserve their oath. There's nothing being taken away that they can't earn back with a reassessment.

This is only true in human only leadership GMH.

Fair enough. If a side-effect of this change is that race relationships are more properly enforced, then all the better.

I personally think these changes are intended to make the GMHs effectively interchangeable. It used to be more complicated, especially with the closure of Tuluk,in regard to which GMH had what in terms of geography, politics, and products. This is frustrating in that it benefits two of the GMHs a lot more because they already are effectively interchangeable and are gifted advantages in geography to make them more competitive while the third house will never be similarly gifted an equivalent advantage in terms of product and politics in the current game world.

I also don't like how it effectively destroys and craps on any lifesworn customs and culture than may have sprung up. I think if you take away a perk you should add another perk such as open up one Outrider, Expansion Division, or Falcon? spot.

These options aren't off the table - I'm just giving the change more than 8 hours to breathe before I start making more significant decisions for GMH direction.

I completely disagree that GMHs will be interchangeable - each clan still has its unique focuses and interests, both merchantly and politically. I wouldn't have made this change if I felt that it would hobble one particular House or give one House a significant advantage over the other two. I've already expounded on my reasoning, so I won't reiterate. However, this decision was far from arbitrary. It was made to fix things that were broken and add something that was largely missing. I would not have made the change on a whim or if I thought the current players in GMHs wouldn't be able to adjust.

[Asanadas]

I think if the Outriders, Expansion Division, and the Falcons opened up, that would create some innate GMH conflict. 2-3 max per House, and they live somewhere between the Agent and Hunter branch.

Nothing says "war over materials" like 6 buff dudes slaughtering each other in the best gear ever made out in the desert. They'd be like gladiator champions, but in the desert.

That would be a sure way to get a hunter to want to life-swear, if he can become a Falcon or an Outrider.

[Ender]

Of course, PCs can always be killed. I doubt anyone will argue otherwise.

However, the idea that a PC can be trusted with information because they are life-sworn is dispelled. There are now other real factors at play when a leader has to decide who to trust, or who not to trust.

As far as current life-sworn employees in GMHs, the opportunity is open to those who wish to preserve their oath. There's nothing being taken away that they can't earn back with a reassessment.

This is only true in human only leadership GMH.

Fair enough. If a side-effect of this change is that race relationships are more properly enforced, then all the better.

[Mordiggian]

I think if the Outriders, Expansion Division, and the Falcons opened up, that would create some innate GMH conflict. 2-3 max per House, and they live somewhere between the Agent and Hunter branch.

Nothing says "war over materials" like 6 buff dudes slaughtering each other in the best gear ever made out in the desert. They'd be like gladiator champions, but in the desert.

That would be a sure way to get a hunter to want to life-swear, if he can become a Falcon or an Outrider.

I used to share this opinion until it occurred to me that opening 'Outriders' or whatever elite group would largely involve the PCs who would be in those groups doing what they already do, except they have different cloaks and a bigger footlocker and they skip out on training sessions.

[Armaddict]

Yes.  Things to aspire to are bad.

[KankWhisperer]

People like things like a cloak that says I'm the best and a title. Even if it was just that and nothing else it would be coveted in my opinion.

[Ender]

I think if the Outriders, Expansion Division, and the Falcons opened up, that would create some innate GMH conflict. 2-3 max per House, and they live somewhere between the Agent and Hunter branch.

Nothing says "war over materials" like 6 buff dudes slaughtering each other in the best gear ever made out in the desert. They'd be like gladiator champions, but in the desert.

That would be a sure way to get a hunter to want to life-swear, if he can become a Falcon or an Outrider.

I used to share this opinion until it occurred to me that opening 'Outriders' or whatever elite group would largely involve the PCs who would be in those groups doing what they already do, except they have different cloaks and a bigger footlocker and they skip out on training sessions.

Going to disagree with this.  Yea, on paper that's what it looks like, but in reality there's a strong desire for PCs to want to strive for those really difficult achievements.  Having that super cloak isn't what it's about, it's about showing others you put in the work to get that special cloak, that is what makes it so special.

[lostinspace]

I think if the Outriders, Expansion Division, and the Falcons opened up, that would create some innate GMH conflict. 2-3 max per House, and they live somewhere between the Agent and Hunter branch.

Nothing says "war over materials" like 6 buff dudes slaughtering each other in the best gear ever made out in the desert. They'd be like gladiator champions, but in the desert.

That would be a sure way to get a hunter to want to life-swear, if he can become a Falcon or an Outrider.

I used to share this opinion until it occurred to me that opening 'Outriders' or whatever elite group would largely involve the PCs who would be in those groups doing what they already do, except they have different cloaks and a bigger footlocker and they skip out on training sessions.

Going to disagree with this.  Yea, on paper that's what it looks like, but in reality there's a strong desire for PCs to want to strive for those really difficult achievements.  Having that super cloak isn't what it's about, it's about showing others you put in the work to get that special cloak, that is what makes it so special.

Yeah, I want to kill one and take their special cloak!

[RogueGunslinger]

I think if the Outriders, Expansion Division, and the Falcons opened up, that would create some innate GMH conflict. 2-3 max per House, and they live somewhere between the Agent and Hunter branch.

Nothing says "war over materials" like 6 buff dudes slaughtering each other in the best gear ever made out in the desert. They'd be like gladiator champions, but in the desert.

That would be a sure way to get a hunter to want to life-swear, if he can become a Falcon or an Outrider.

I used to share this opinion until it occurred to me that opening 'Outriders' or whatever elite group would largely involve the PCs who would be in those groups doing what they already do, except they have different cloaks and a bigger footlocker and they skip out on training sessions.

While this is true, just being able to say "I'm an Outrider" has a huge effect on how your character will be perceived.  And I think only allowing 1 person into this sort of rank, instead of 2-3, would be much better. However... This discussion feels tangential to me. I don't really see why these groups would need to be opened in light of this change.

[Armaddict]

Saying things like 'It contributes nothing to the game' is bad.  Because that thing in particular already did contribute something to the game for a lot of people.

You call it the same thing as the mercenary squad.  I point out that it was used entirely differently, literally as a small, elite group that operated separate from the mercenaries on long-lived scouting missions and free-roaming investigations.  Mercenaries followed the schedule and were the brute force.  Outriders were self-starters who only really relied on each other, and so while loyal to the house, regarded the mercs as unreliable.  Mercs regarded them as assholes, but were also glad to see them.  Caravan Guard were in charge of all escorts and mobile security.  These were distinct branches that worked both together and separately.  There are also more differentiations than that, as I'm sure you're aware.  These differentiations used to be commonplace in clans.

It was not 'just a title and bigger locker'.  It was specialization of your character.  It was what they worked towards.  Some became leaders of the dun-cloaked.  Some took on the outrider cloak.  Some took on the Caravan duster.  To say that the differentiation was 'unnecessary' is taking one viewpoint of the game to the max, which is 'if you're not doing what everyone else is doing, you're not contributing to everyone's fun'.  However...there was also plenty of fun to be had when it existed.  It encouraged different mentalities in the same clans.  It was good.

Altogether, the school of thought of 'less options means more participation' has always been a flawed one to me.  I want more clans open, even if they go through phases of inactivity.  I want more options for people.  I want more avenues for prestige or infamy.  I want even small groups of PC's to be trying to muscle their interests into things, even if other clans are far larger.  I want interests pulling in all different directions at all times.  That simply doesn't happen when you have less niches available to be filled.

While I was a fan of Tuluk closing, I also think it was only a good move in tandem with more options elsewhere opening up.  With the above mentality, all that it became was a further closing down of niches and options and avenues.  Granted, I make do, because my PC's tend to be long lived, but I do know that I don't want my military PC's to be on a 3 clan rotation, particularly where I may not want to play in certain places, as a player.  So this little blurb went on awhile, but I just wanted to say...while you call that a realization, I disagree.  I call that an illusion, based on the single bit of data of 'how much people are forced into interaction'.  That doesn't make it more fun than the alternative.

Edit:  Since the above is going off of a minor derail, and Valeria's post made me realize it...I do think, for GMH's in particular, lifesworn roles would be pretty uncommon and specialized.  So this is a good change, and hopefully ends up in them competing for hunters with each other.  Like free agents in a sport, heh.

[valeria]

I'm not usually much of one for change and I'm usually dragged into it kicking and screaming... but I like this one.  It definitely makes GMH life more attractive to me.

I wouldn't mind seeing longer contracts for higher ranks, like maybe like a 3-year max as you're actually getting into leadership (which plays out to being a couple of months), or maybe a required notice to quit (not renewing next year?  must let us know this year), because nobody wants a corporal+ equivalent to just bork right off.  But overall, I think seriously reducing life-oathing is a good change.

[nauta]

Saying things like 'It contributes nothing to the game' is bad.  Because that thing in particular already did contribute something to the game for a lot of people.

I did a quick search of the thread above, and nobody said that.  That's all I wanted to say; you may continue -- I agree with all your points otherwise.  In my view: if it makes people want to log in, and there's no administrative overhead, generates MCB, and it makes sense in the game world, then, yeah, probably a good thing.  (*cough* halflings *cough*)

[Armaddict]

Saying things like 'It contributes nothing to the game' is bad.  Because that thing in particular already did contribute something to the game for a lot of people.

I did a quick search of the thread above, and nobody said that.  That's all I wanted to say; you may continue -- I agree with all your points otherwise.  In my view: if it makes people want to log in, and there's no administrative overhead, generates MCB, and it makes sense in the game world, then, yeah, probably a good thing.  (*cough* halflings *cough*)

I used to share this opinion until it occurred to me that opening 'Outriders' or whatever elite group would largely involve the PCs who would be in those groups doing what they already do, except they have different cloaks and a bigger footlocker and they skip out on training sessions.

It's paraphrasing.  That's what I read out of it.  Such seems to say it's unnecessary and a non-contributing factor.  It has, over the years, though, been said about various clans and roles, notably with noble military wings.

[BadSkeelz]

I think if the Outriders, Expansion Division, and the Falcons opened up, that would create some innate GMH conflict. 2-3 max per House, and they live somewhere between the Agent and Hunter branch.

Nothing says "war over materials" like 6 buff dudes slaughtering each other in the best gear ever made out in the desert. They'd be like gladiator champions, but in the desert.

That would be a sure way to get a hunter to want to life-swear, if he can become a Falcon or an Outrider.

I used to share this opinion until it occurred to me that opening 'Outriders' or whatever elite group would largely involve the PCs who would be in those groups doing what they already do, except they have different cloaks and a bigger footlocker and they skip out on training sessions.

People love flair and perks. They allow us to customize our characters and better control how we spend our playtimes. Specialized titles and rewards like cloaks, weapons, and mounts are also useful carrots for PC Leaders to dangle over their minions, especially in clans where the vast majority of the minions are of generally the same rank. They're something to reward players with who put the time and effort in to distinguish their character.

[seidhr]

*devil's advocate*
Everyone should get their own personalized clan and personalized cloak with badges!  No clan should have more than 2 people, and all clans should have a clan of guards, who should also have their own clan of guards!

*/derail nergalthread*

[Armaddict]

Feedback baaaad.

[Nergal]

Feedback isn't bad, however people who give it should make the effort to be measured and somewhat realistic. Like I said before, it's not out of the question to reevaluate other positions in GMHs and make them matter more, and give PCs a place in those positions. However it can't just be slapped together or it will lose meaning and fail. It needs to be done correctly and it needs to be planned out, and it's beyond the scope of what has been done so far. This thread was originally for drumming up thoughts on GMH conflict, and hopefully it will continue to be.

[Delirium]

I'll be honest, a staff member mocking player input and discussion with sarcastic hyperbole is not a thing that gives me the warm fuzzies.

I'm on the fence about whether special perks are needed, but I will say that having something to strive for that is meaningful and creates new opportunities is never a bad thing.

Example time: If Shatuka hadn't been striving toward Outrider (her potential partners kept dying!) I can guarantee you I would have gotten bored and stagnated, no matter how many interesting plots I whipped up. Why?  Because at Sergeant, I'd topped out the glass ceiling and the only other movement was toward a more specialized, lateral unit - but one that happened to fit her and her abilities and her goals extremely well.

But, if all the unit is, in staff's eyes, "a special patch and a nicer footlocker", then yeah, the purpose and options open for those units needs to be revised. But that's not the fault of the players.