Martial Arts

[Asche]

Martial Arts. They've been brought up before, I'm sure, but I couldn't find the thread. Punching and kicking things to death. Monks/unarmed combatants have been a part of roleplaying games since NEAR the beginning. And in a way, they already exist. Northern warriors favoring shields and axes made of wood, flamboyant techniques that contrasts the speed and practicality of southern knife-fighting. And don't dare challenge a desert elf with spear and shield in each hand. Cultural norms and styles being represented by the same generic code, letting players provide the flavor behind the +1s an +2s, already a tried and proven method. But why not unarmed? Is it because of the association with 'eastern' traditions in DnD not fitting the Dark Sun theme? I bring this up because I think it would be a great addition.

Mechanically, it need not be too op. Have a 'martial' skill that functions as both a weapon skill and style, active only while unarmed. Make it suck, initially. Then add bonuses. Higher and higher effective strength when a blow lands. Higher agility that scales in opposition to the armor one wears, with the highest bonuses provided when wearing none. Don't let it outdamage a two-hander, and disable parrying. You've got a guy who hits often, and hard, but is almost completely reliant on dodging. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds cool?

[BadSkeelz]

We already have martial arts.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Fighting%20Styles

But why not unarmed?

Code Select Expand


You punch a hard-shelled scrab, your fist impacting harmlessly against its carapace.

A hard-shelled scrab pinches you solidly in the head.

[Desertman]

You can already do this.

I specifically recall being in the Byn and having someone bet my Trooper that he couldn't beat a Runner in a fight with the Runner using weapons and my Trooper being unarmed.

I beat them by kicking, bashing, and disarming them while fighting unarmed myself. It was a lot of fun, many laughs were had, and it was an interesting thing I remember all of these years later.

So really, if you are a great fighter, and who you are fighting is not a great fighter, but you are unarmed and they are armed, you can already still beat them.

It's not exactly what you want, but it is a possibility now, if you wisely pick your opponents.

You are never going to beat a skilled fighter who is wielding weapons if you are not wielding weapons, but really, I feel that should be the case.

Edited to Add: I also subdued someone who was wielding weapons once, they couldn't get away from me, and I held them down and rubbed my junk in her face while she screamed at me. No regrets. Ninja-powers-OP.

[Molten Heart]

What would be cool is s command/skill that put s combatant into s defensive stance that'd allow someone more defenses, like they might be able to parry or at least avoid getting stomped as usually happens when someone is unarmed. Maybe include other restrictions like it couldn't be used while riding/sitting/etc. maybe it could stand up against armed opponents at advanced levels. It's only natural it'd also branch the controversial neck-snap skill. ;-)

[RogueGunslinger]

Edited to Add: I also subdued someone who was wielding weapons once, they couldn't get away from me, and I held them down and rubbed my junk in her face while she screamed at me. No regrets. Ninja-powers-OP.

Some people just use skills. Desertman utilizes them to their fullest.

[lostinspace]

I would so be down for a guild that doesn't get any weapon skills. Then give them tons of useful skills that have been discussed on the boards. Disarm, necksnap, kick, throat poke, hamstring, bash, etc. Maybe even give them less of a delay when using those moves. Sure they won't do anything against meks or anything, but against other players the combination of blinding and disarming (can't see to get your weapon can you?) would make that fight a lot less uneven. I would totally play one.

[Desertman]

I would so be down for a guild that doesn't get any weapon skills. Then give them tons of useful skills that have been discussed on the boards. Disarm, necksnap, kick, throat poke, hamstring, bash, etc. Maybe even give them less of a delay when using those moves. Sure they won't do anything against meks or anything, but against other players the combination of blinding and disarming (can't see to get your weapon can you?) would make that fight a lot less uneven. I would totally play one.

This Guild already existed to my knowledge, except they also got weapons skills....they are just currently closed for play.

[Armaddict]

Back in the day, I did actually have a friend who special apped a ninja with custom skillset, bumped offense and defense, and appropriate stats.

He died to someone who had weapons.

[Riev]

I wouldn't be TOTALLY against the "martial" styles making a return, if by martial styles you mean when Sujaal A'jinn was teaching people how to defend themselves without weapons and actually had a "skill" to go with it.

Shit. I'd take the -offense/defense you get for being unarmed, if there was a "skill" to go with being unarmed. Though I don't know what would govern it, nor what the "unarmed" skill would affect. Attack speed is nuts, damage is absolutely insane if you have a high offense as it is...

[Mordiggian]

I would so be down for a guild that doesn't get any weapon skills. Then give them tons of useful skills that have been discussed on the boards. Disarm, necksnap, kick, throat poke, hamstring, bash, etc. Maybe even give them less of a delay when using those moves. Sure they won't do anything against meks or anything, but against other players the combination of blinding and disarming (can't see to get your weapon can you?) would make that fight a lot less uneven. I would totally play one.

This Guild already existed to my knowledge, except they also got weapons skills....they are just currently closed for play.

If we're thinking of the same thing, this stuff doesn't function like a normal skill and would not be easily transferable to a PC skill set for wide use.

[hopeandsorrow]

Personally I Wish a subdued opponent could be choked out,  A sort of Offense vs Defense check, that if the subduer won the check, it would count as a choke, reducing the subdued to zero stun.  Struggling to much in a arrest doesn't always = insta-death.  Just a giant hand around your throat to make you cooperative during your trip to Allanak's premier jail cell.

Perhaps because I long to see a fight get desperate and dirty, grappling being a viable way to turn the tide.  Right now, at lest my experience subdue just kind of has you standing there, holding a guy.  You can throw them around or have a buddy hit them but... heh lacks the intensity of a wrestling match.  (my experience).

I would love to see struggle between two combatants taken to a desperate disarmed end where they both fight for leverage over the other, trying to get that needed bone breaking hold or wind robbing squeeze.

[RogueGunslinger]

How about this: Disarm is free on a subdued opponent, anyone can do it.


Also shields should be disarmable.

[whitt]

How about this: Disarm is free on a subdued opponent, anyone can do it.


Also shields should be disarmable.

You mean if someone is subdued?  Or just in general?  Because most shields, you'd almost need to rip the other person's arm off to get the shield loose.

[Saellyn]

How about this: Disarm is free on a subdued opponent, anyone can do it.


Also shields should be disarmable.

Code Select Expand

You take your weapon and slam it into the mans shield with brutal force, shattering his arm!

[Case]

You do something that looked cool in a movie and do UNSPEAKABLE DAMAGE to your groin.

[BadSkeelz]

This the is Martial Arts thread, not Sex Skills thread.

[Inks]

Disarming someone you have grappled isn't that easy, at all. Seriously if you grapple someone who has a knife you are in trouble.

[hopeandsorrow]

Disarming someone you have grappled isn't that easy, at all. Seriously if you grapple someone who has a knife you are in trouble.

True,  but if you grappled some one who has a large unwieldy weapon like a massive spear or pole arm.  You might have an easier go of it.  Little hard to wield a large weapon when some one it literally to close to meet the  business end of it.

Thought a knife fight in a clinch would be utterly devastating.

Oh man this makes me wish real grappling was a thing in Arm.  All the subtly, nuanced things and layers of potential bodily harm.  The almost symmetry of the rock/paper/scissor nature of it.
Man A has a knife,
Man B wield a two handed maul.
Man A decided that trying to stab a guy wielding a large weapon might not work at a typical melee range, instead drops one knife and takes the gamble of moving in closer for deadly kill.
Man A Offenses Vs Man B's defense.
If Man A fails the check, he risks getting hammered, literally.  If Man B fails the check, he now has a weapon he can't use effectively on an opponent who now very intimate with him, wielding a sharp blade. 
Man B drop's the maul and managed to draw his own blade (agility vs Man A's offense)
Seeks to turn the tide of the grapple (Man B's strength + Subdue skill vs Man A's Defense + subdue skill).

Of course I'm literally just dreaming here, but if I was say, doing this on a pen and paper system I made from scratch, that's how it works in my head.

As well a fun thought experiment given the nature of Life in the Known.  I would think, martial arts of the unarmed variety would favor grappling.  Life is harsh in the desert world, wasting your energy and risking personal injury trying to punch a guy out, with all those fragile little bones in your hands doesn't seem wise.  There's a reason that in real world sports, the fighters wear gloves/wrap their hands and it isn't for protecting the other guy.  Humanoid hands aren't meant to be blunt instruments, if you hit too hard, you can easily break your hand, which with out modern medical science will likely heal incorrectly, crippling your hands dexterity if not making it an usable lump of flesh given the nature of the break.  Sounds like something that would hurt ones ability to survive adequately.

I would imagine like a lot of real life societies, Zalanthas Unarmed combat would be a mix of amateur wrestling and long extensive list of cheap shots and dirty tricks.   Nothing akin to a professional sport or a holly wood imagining of martial arts. 

But that's less of a code discussion. 

The idea of kung fu flying kicks might sound fun, hell it is fun.  But I honestly couldn't imagine eastern monastery exercise routines fitting well with the world (game's world) as I see it.

[Jihelu]

I'm telling you.
Subdue.
Suplex.
Ez pin.

[Asche]

We already have martial arts.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Fighting%20Styles

But why not unarmed?

Code Select Expand


You punch a hard-shelled scrab, your fist impacting harmlessly against its carapace.

A hard-shelled scrab pinches you solidly in the head.

Code Select Expand


You slam your bone greatsword against a naturally armored creature orders of magnitude larger and heavier than you, somehow cleaving to its apparently just below-the-skin vitals!

The armored, massive beast swings its tail, surging several tons of force towards your head at speeds your brain can barely fathom, the roar of a sonic boom dominating your hearing as sand rushes to flee the battlefield. You parry.

The first rule of fantasy action is the suspension of actual physics. The second is accepting that most of the characters are, compared to us, superhuman badasses. Unless you roll poorly on stats. Then you're so weak you can't pierce clothing with your strikes. But we don't all have karma.

More importantly, none of this has to be spiritual. The only unifying factor of every skilled warrior was discipline. The willingness to get up every morning and practice. We have entire CLANS dedicated to drilling nonstop. Hell, unarmed already exists in the game, just as a convenient excuse to train offense/defense in sparring circles. And yeah, it probably would be amazing to be a completely badass martial artist. Is any high end warrior not amazing? Y'know, barring a city elf. I don't know much about combat code, but I'd be willing to bet most of you wouldn't trade the second layer of defense parry provides for a boost to dodging.

[Saellyn]

Karma does not give you a better chance for better stats, man. You can't even use your karma on stats.

[Bushranger]

I thought unarmed combat was called Magick?

cast 'mon un hi-yaah karate chop' Cobra.Kai

[Jihelu]

I cast fist.

[Asche]

Karma does not give you a better chance for better stats, man. You can't even use your karma on stats.

Fair. Doesn't change the fact that karma lets you start off with a much stronger character through skill boosts, or the potential to make a much stronger character through extended subguilds. Personally, I think its one thing to bar overpowered classes behind a wall of responsibility. It is entirely another to make the same warrior or assassin or pickpocket objectively inferior to the guy playing the same class. But we're getting off topic.

[Inks]

I have played subguild thug as a martial artist of sorts in the past (still used staff weapons) You could even easier do this with a warrior.

[lostinspace]

I have played in another mud that had pretty good grapple code. People always prioritized the other skills, but if you built yourself into a skilled wrestler you could manhandle people way above your weight class, as long as they hadn't spent the time to level theirs up as well.

[Riev]

Really, just don't give subdue such a large bonus/penalty when accounting for size, and allow a 'pin' command. Grapple someone, drag them around, do whatever, but if they're a bother, 'pin' and its like a bash, knocking them to the ground and stunning for a period of time.

Or even just a 'grip' or 'wrench' command that deals stun damage, a la solid snake. uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh knock out

[MeTekillot]

RALERIS, TRY TO REMEMBER THE BASICS OF CQC.

[Saellyn]

I would like to see bone damage enter the game, with combat-oriented guilds like Warriors given the true edge in melee by being able to apply maneuvers that could break arms or legs, as ways to restrict an opponent in combat, and in fleeing.

[Jihelu]

Just give me a viable way to break someones legs or beat the shit out of someone to the point of them not being able to leave the room.
"but jihelu you can just hit them to like 0 hp lol"
Contrary to popular belief in real life, Yes I know this isn't real life, you don't have to almost murder someone to just sit on their ass when they have a broken leg.
Then again subdue works.
Sometimes.

[Desertman]

I once emoted this while wrestling in the Byn on unarmed combat training day.

The so-and-so man sprawls to block the other man's takedown.

The so-and-so man transitions, attempting to take the other man's back after sprawling and forcing the other man down towards the stone floor.

The so-and-so man subdues the other man.

The so-and-so man takes the other man's back and starts trying to work for the choke.

I have also in the past....

The so-and-so man lifts a leg to check the other man's kick and quickly returns with an inside switch-kick attempt of his own.

The so-and-so man shoots for the single-leg takedown.


You think I regret it? I don't. I got a few laughs out of it. I like to imagine the other player was going...."WTF is this asshole talking about?".

Heheheh.

[Jihelu]

I just want to get someone to master subdue and

The blond hair elderly man does a half Horatio Nelson

[Akariel]

The Hulk Hogan is standing here.

The Hulk Hogan shouts, in Sirihish:
"Brother!"

[Saellyn]

The Hulk Hogan shouts, in a gravelly voice,
     "YOU GOT A RINGSIDE SEAT TO YOUR OWN SMACKDOWN, BROTHER!"

[Delirium]

Only if I get to create a pudgy, mustachioed man named Mean Gene.

[lostinspace]

I once emoted this while wrestling in the Byn on unarmed combat training day.

The so-and-so man sprawls to block the other man's takedown.

The so-and-so man transitions, attempting to take the other man's back after sprawling and forcing the other man down towards the stone floor.

The so-and-so man subdues the other man.

The so-and-so man takes the other man's back and starts trying to work for the choke.

I have also in the past....

The so-and-so man lifts a leg to check the other man's kick and quickly returns with an inside switch-kick attempt of his own.

The so-and-so man shoots for the single-leg takedown.


You think I regret it? I don't. I got a few laughs out of it. I like to imagine the other player was going...."WTF is this asshole talking about?".

Heheheh.

I did the wrestling part as a half-giant against a half-giant, pretty sure the Runner watching was pissing himself.

[RogueGunslinger]

I once emoted this while wrestling in the Byn on unarmed combat training day.

The so-and-so man sprawls to block the other man's takedown.

The so-and-so man transitions, attempting to take the other man's back after sprawling and forcing the other man down towards the stone floor.

The so-and-so man subdues the other man.

The so-and-so man takes the other man's back and starts trying to work for the choke.

I have also in the past....

The so-and-so man lifts a leg to check the other man's kick and quickly returns with an inside switch-kick attempt of his own.

The so-and-so man shoots for the single-leg takedown.


You think I regret it? I don't. I got a few laughs out of it. I like to imagine the other player was going...."WTF is this asshole talking about?".

Heheheh.

MMA has actually given me lots of emoting inspiration in fights. Most of my kicks are attempted leg kicks(inside/outside) or body kicks, if I miss I always emote having to spin around full circle. Feints, footwork, and head-movement I have good descriptions for, just from watching UFC fights.

The only problem is I'm never able to emote much because I'm always super ready to "disengage" or "flee" or "rescue" and combat spam is fassstt due to combat being all or nothing and seldom being an even match. When you get fairly defensive, and your opponent does too, that is when it becomes easier to emote during combat.

[Saellyn]

One thing I do to combat the spam is always be ready to ctrl+a + ctrl-c.

Highlight all text, copy all text. Dise. Bam.

[Akariel]

I've always seen the 'kick' command to be more of a 'off-guard' strike. E.G. Trying to knee someone in the groin mid-fight.

[BadSkeelz]

I've always seen the 'kick' command to be more of a 'off-guard' strike. E.G. Trying to knee someone in the groin mid-fight.

Aaaaand then your dwarf roundhouse kicks the half-giant in the head.

[Hauwke]

You can fix the dorf roundhousing 4 times their height by making kick into an aimable thing perhaps. Sure it wouldnt stop that dwarf roundhousing a giant but it could allow those that find it an issue to fix it.
Eg kick necker pecker
The short and stumpy stump lifts a foot and claps the necker in his pecker winding him.
Could have it cause different damage amounts based on where it hits? Like a head kick would of course be brutal. But a leg shot could just do a tiny bit of hp and instead do plenty of movement damage or something to show that it is mostly a crippling shot. Or a neck kick doing a moderate amount of hp damage and movement and stun because you know being unable to breath sucks and it would still knock you around mentally a fair bit.

[RogueGunslinger]

Or just remove all echos and replace with generic "you strike so and so soft/hard/very hard" And let the person emote where they hit.

[CodeMaster]

My ideal text-based strike/grapple system would be something akin to rock-paper-scissors.  You can 'grap', 'block', or 'strike', but if two warriors are doing both at the same time, grap beats block, block beats strike, and strike beats grap.

[Hauwke]

Or just remove all echos and replace with generic "you strike so and so soft/hard/very hard" And let the person emote where they hit.

Yeah I get what you mean. But at the same time it does still make more sense to be able to do various things with a skill which is nearly useless in any real combat situation unless you are just that beast you dont even haventi worry about reversals of any kind. My suggestion adds a way to keep them still, and still do damage if you want it to. But meh code is a bitch or so i hear

[WanderingOoze]

I had a PC who routinely kicked things to death When he was bored.
Not really adding to the discussion,  just didn't want to Negro that brag thread.

 

[WanderingOoze]

Necro...necro. Not Negro. Phone won't let me edit that post.

[Hauwke]

I routinely used to get told icly to stop smacking stuff around with my feet lol so kick can be pretty op

[Jihelu]

I routinely used to get told icly to stop smacking stuff around with my feet lol so kick can be pretty op

Anyone can use a sword
Not many people can use a sword with their feet.

[Hauwke]

Emote handstands and bashes shit to death with a foot club that isnt a deformity