A Sneak's Handbook?

[nauta]

Honestly, I think that every skill in the game aside from weapon skills are pretty straight forward in how they advance and quite easy to understand from the information already available in the help files.

So, this got me thinking.  I found a lot of the sneak skills to be pretty hard to understand as a newbie, both in terms of how to practice them (how to advance them) and in terms of what they actually did.  One of my first posts as a newbie, in fact, was asking for help with respect to sneak skills.

For me, at least, the sneak skills were opaque for a few reasons:

(a) You can't just -watch- how others train up / use / (h|s|e)mote around a sneak skill, because they are sneak skills.  (Ok, strictly speaking you can -watch- if your watch is good enough.)

(b) You can't realistically practice them on your own or with someone else. I know that you can ask your friend inside an apartment if you can try to pinch from them, but almost every one of those scenes I've been in have been extremely clunky, meta-level and immersion breaking.  I also know that you can plant and steal from a room, although I've never been very clear on whether this actually gets you your fail or not, or if it's good form or not.  (Also, last I checked: plant didn't have a delay whereas steal did.)

(c) Hide doesn't have a flag that tells you that you are still trying to hide, and a lot of things break hide without letting you know that your hide has been broken -- that you are no longer trying to hide, which is something that your PC would absolutely know: whether or not they are trying to hide or not  -- plus, there are some borderline cases (e.g., 'arrange' breaks
hide).

(d) There's no thief camp, unlike Salarr/Kadius for crafters and the Byn for combat types.

I mean, I eventually figured this stuff out, but, unlike in other cases, finding out in-character just meant a lot of dubious  "psi ratfucker hey, did this break hide?  how about now?  how about now?" and other immersion-breaking dances.

Solutions?  Perhaps some tweaking to the helpfiles; as a newbie, I really wanted examples of people using, e.g., hide or steal or sap in action, so I could see what sort of emotes / hemotes / semotes they used; maybe some code tweaks here and there.

Maybe others had more specific problems with sneak skills and areas documentation-wise where they could be improved.  Maybe it was just me.

[Jihelu]

Well I guess you could consider the Guild a sneak camp but they do other shit too so ehhhhhhh

Also it should hint at what sneak classes can do what as opposed to other.
What stealth class has better sneak/hide?
Stuff like that.
Things that 'wont' break stealth most times.
I know sap and backstab hint at it, and even do a good job of explaining "If you fuck your sap up expect fight"

[RogueGunslinger]

Honestly, there's aren't many good way to use lower levels of Hide or Sneak, Steal, and other similar skills around other players without being incredibly, comically obvious and being forever labeled as skulking elf who needs to be watched.

The only ways I know of are "sneak training" with a trusted friend. Or alone, with NPC's where you risk being seen by other sneaks who have high skills.

For the the first one, it's very rare to find a person who can consistently help you like that(especially if they get nothing out of it). The second one feels gamey and twinkish no matter how much roleplay you throw into it.


The good news is those skills go up pretty fast, so you don't have to deal with that predicament long.

[Jihelu]

This is why you make friends kids.
Or join a family.
"hey bro I need to sneak around your ass so I can steal from people"

"What did we say about this? Okay I'll help"

[Majikal]

The first point of karma I got was for having good discretion with my play as an Assassin. This was before they changed how karma was given obviously.

I think the most important part about playing a sneak, is to not look, dress, talk, or act like you're playing a sneak, if you play your sneaky-sneaky like the most important thing in the world is that nobody ever knows you can do anything sneaky I think it's a bit more fun. Unless of course your pc's personality is to be a shitty sneaky. If you walk around in ninja-gear and end every conversation by trying to meld into the shadows then... wait that sounds kind of awesome.

Cancel everything I just said. Be a god damn daylight batman if you want. 

[Hauwke]

My first ever character was a burgler. Yes I fucked up bad. But I actually had a very good arm experience with it. Without revealing IC info basically what happened was 'Whoa wait how did I get this deep in  the doo doo without even using sneak ir shit'  and was promptly taught icly to emote stealthing around. Actually if I could remember the dude that did this with me I would give him a big kudos.
Anyway my point is after tambling, find a small group. Dont twink it of course but as a small group hemote slinking through the shadows all together. Follow a random pc for a bit then gto of there so as not to get maimed if this is all off topic let me know and I will remove it or edit it so it is on topic.

[roobee]

I'd add it's confusing what skills are in sleight of hand and what are their own skill.

[nauta]

I'd add it's confusing what skills are in sleight of hand and what are their own skill.

How so?  I just did a HELP SLEIGHT OF HAND and it lists: palm, slip, latch, unlatch.

Hmm.  Aren't there two other commands (stow, ready) that are part of sleight of hand as well?  That's worth adding to the 'Improving the HELP FILES' thread if it's true.  I'm not sure it's true, though.  Maybe somebody who knows could answer that.

[CodeMaster]

I'd add it's confusing what skills are in sleight of hand and what are their own skill.

How so?  I just did a HELP SLEIGHT OF HAND and it lists: palm, slip, latch, unlatch.

Hmm.  Aren't there two other commands (stow, ready) that are part of sleight of hand as well?  That's worth adding to the 'Improving the HELP FILES' thread if it's true.  I'm not sure it's true, though.  Maybe somebody who knows could answer that.

Yep, stow and ready are based on sleight of hand.

steal <item> -- lifting an item from the room -- is based on steal, but palm <item> <container or surface> is based on sleight of hand, even if the container or surface is an object sitting in the room.

[Dresan]

Apprentice hide and sneak should be made useful against someone without scan/listen>apprentice. Failure should only occur when someone has the skill to see or hear you.

[Hauwke]

The way i see it. Even without scan or listen you should be able to spot someone. I mean, an apprentice of sneak isnt climbing through the rafters like a ninja to avoid everyone.

[ibusoe]

So, this got me thinking.  I found a lot of the sneak skills to be pretty hard to understand as a newbie, both in terms of how to practice them (how to advance them) and in terms of what they actually did.  One of my first posts as a newbie, in fact, was asking for help with respect to sneak skills.

For me, at least, the sneak skills were opaque for a few reasons:

(a) You can't just -watch- how others train up / use / (h|s|e)mote around a sneak skill, because they are sneak skills.  (Ok, strictly speaking you can -watch- if your watch is good enough.)

(b) You can't realistically practice them on your own or with someone else. I know that you can ask your friend inside an apartment if you can try to pinch from them, but almost every one of those scenes I've been in have been extremely clunky, meta-level and immersion breaking.  I also know that you can plant and steal from a room, although I've never been very clear on whether this actually gets you your fail or not, or if it's good form or not.  (Also, last I checked: plant didn't have a delay whereas steal did.)

(c) Hide doesn't have a flag that tells you that you are still trying to hide, and a lot of things break hide without letting you know that your hide has been broken -- that you are no longer trying to hide, which is something that your PC would absolutely know: whether or not they are trying to hide or not  -- plus, there are some borderline cases (e.g., 'arrange' breaks
hide).

(d) There's no thief camp, unlike Salarr/Kadius for crafters and the Byn for combat types.

I mean, I eventually figured this stuff out, but, unlike in other cases, finding out in-character just meant a lot of dubious  "psi ratfucker hey, did this break hide?  how about now?  how about now?" and other immersion-breaking dances.

Solutions?  Perhaps some tweaking to the helpfiles; as a newbie, I really wanted examples of people using, e.g., hide or steal or sap in action, so I could see what sort of emotes / hemotes / semotes they used; maybe some code tweaks here and there.

Maybe others had more specific problems with sneak skills and areas documentation-wise where they could be improved.  Maybe it was just me.

I think that you're right.  Thieves are kind of the red-headed step-children of the game.  What's worse, as good as the current staff is, I don't feel that anyone currently running the game is able to boost the thief experience.  I get the sense that they're mostly a group of people who've never shoplifted anything.

[nauta]

steal <item> -- lifting an item from the room -- is based on steal, but palm <item> <container or surface> is based on sleight of hand, even if the container or surface is an object sitting in the room.

Let me get this straight: palm/slip allow you to palm/slip something that is on the ground in the room?  I had thought that only steal/plant allow that whereas palm/slip allow you to get stuff from a container or surface (bar or table).

I guess the "even if..." line is tossing me off.

Also, ibusoe, you're so weird. 

[CodeMaster]

steal <item> -- lifting an item from the room -- is based on steal, but palm <item> <container or surface> is based on sleight of hand, even if the container or surface is an object sitting in the room.

Let me get this straight: palm/slip allow you to palm/slip something that is on the ground in the room?  I had thought that only steal/plant allow that whereas palm/slip allow you to get stuff from a container or surface (bar or table).

I guess the "even if..." line is tossing me off.

Also, ibusoe, you're so weird. 

Yeah.  If there is a mug on a table in the room, you have to use palm to get it off.  Take out the "even"

[Riev]

sleight of hand works on container objects, regardless of placement in room, worn, or in inventory.

steal works on objects themselves, in room or in inventory

You can steal that pouch on the ground with steal, and hope nobody catches it, or you can palm out a few of the coins and leave the pouch undisturbed with sleight.

[Jihelu]

If you are good enough.
You can peek to see where a guy keeps his keys.
Shadow him into his apartment.
Steal that key.
Sneak a ginka into his belt
Then lock him inside his house.
Ez

[nauta]

steal <item> -- lifting an item from the room -- is based on steal, but palm <item> <container or surface> is based on sleight of hand, even if the container or surface is an object sitting in the room.

Let me get this straight: palm/slip allow you to palm/slip something that is on the ground in the room?  I had thought that only steal/plant allow that whereas palm/slip allow you to get stuff from a container or surface (bar or table).

I guess the "even if..." line is tossing me off.

Yeah.  If there is a mug on a table in the room, you have to use palm to get it off.  Take out the "even"

Great, I thiiink we are on the same page -- it's been a while, but I remember that distinction tossing me off too.  Here's some language I suggested in the Improving the HELP FILES thread on SLEIGHT OF HAND (might as well add it to STEAL too):

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50232.msg915681.html#msg915681

o Note: While steal (see STEAL) and plant (see PLANT) allow you to pick up or drop objects in the room, palm and slip only allow you to pick up or drop objects in a container (including a bar or table).

Does that capture it?

[CodeMaster]

For sure, that's probably a line worth adding.

[seidhr]

Just for the love of God don't be one of those people who sneaks and hides EVERYWHERE they go, ALL the time.  It's dumb.   

[Inks]

^

[hyzhenhok]

If we understand sneak/hide in crowded environments to be blending in and keeping a low profile rather than ninja antics, I don't see why it's unreasonable certain characters might make generous use of sneaking/hiding while in public. It's important to have appropriate IC justification to be sure, but having reasons your character wants to avoid people is a lot easier than having reasons your character is brutally backstabbing random beggars or boxing with lizards or etc.

[solera]

Yeah, real 'rinthers run. Anything but walk.

[RogueGunslinger]

If we understand sneak/hide in crowded environments to be blending in and keeping a low profile rather than ninja antics, I don't see why it's unreasonable certain characters might make generous use of sneaking/hiding while in public. It's important to have appropriate IC justification to be sure, but having reasons your character wants to avoid people is a lot easier than having reasons your character is brutally backstabbing random beggars or boxing with lizards or etc.

I agree with this.

[Hauwke]

Yeah, the way I see apprentice city sneak. Is basically blending in but bumping into people occassionally or something that just breaks the cover if you know what I mean.

[Inks]

Hide and sneak in city environments also includes ninja antics. It's why there is city based camouflage that makes you look like a ninja. In unpopulated areas like rooftops you would hardly "blend in with the crowd". One thing I personally dislike is independant (non-guild, non-Jaxah) pcs using stealth to sneak around the rinth while wearing fancy inky-black or ebon raptor gear, etc. Jesus.


Apprentice stealth skills work more than you think but be prepared for everyone to look at you dubiously and give passive aggressive emotes.


If you are an elf don't hide in a certain bar, if you are human don't hide in a certain bar. Also don't always be hidden everywhere. It is dumb Seidhr is on the  money there. I remember a couple of pcs over a year ago that were ridiculous with it.

[Bushranger]

If you are an elf don't hide in a certain bar

If you're an elf you can hide anywhere! Don't let people bring you down, hater's gonna hate.

*Just don't get caught.

[Jihelu]

Hide in prison and if the Templar finds use that mc dagger you made while in the cells to kill him and his guard.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Solid Snake

[Saellyn]

Solid Snake

Huh...?

Just a box...

[Mordiggian]

Hide in prison and if the Templar finds use that mc dagger you made while in the cells to kill him and his guard.

I don't want to give away specifics, but this is theoretically possible. If we disregard the fact the Templar and their guard will probably school you in combat, any PC in the game can get thrown in a cell and then craft a prison shank.

[seidhr]

Re: Stealthing everywhere

I don't have a problem with the sneak as much as the hiding.  Yes, you can handwave yourself into just blending into the crowd and so forth, but the fact remains that with a high sneak and hide skill you are essentially undetectable, codedly.  And there are people that do this... Literally.  All.  The.  Time.

These are generally the same people who will be alone in their own apartment and use 'slip' and 'palm' to get a bag off the shelf and put it back.   

[solera]

Whew! My 'rinths never owned a shelf. I'm still good to make low-profile alley rats, maintaining good bar manners of course.

[hopeandsorrow]

Re: Stealthing everywhere

I don't have a problem with the sneak as much as the hiding.  Yes, you can handwave yourself into just blending into the crowd and so forth, but the fact remains that with a high sneak and hide skill you are essentially undetectable, codedly.  And there are people that do this... Literally.  All.  The.  Time.

I always wondered when I played in the 'rinth.  Is it literally this lonely?  Or am I'm the only fool walking around in the open?

This makes me believe I am in fact the only fool walking around, in the open.  Suddenly I'm red with embarrassment.  I apologize you watched random sneaky character, that solo rp was... ummm... for story... and a releasing of tension.

[solera]

Re: Stealthing everywhere

I don't have a problem with the sneak as much as the hiding.  Yes, you can handwave yourself into just blending into the crowd and so forth, but the fact remains that with a high sneak and hide skill you are essentially undetectable, codedly.  And there are people that do this... Literally.  All.  The.  Time.

I always wondered when I played in the 'rinth.  Is it literally this lonely?  Or am I'm the only fool walking around in the open?

This makes me believe I am in fact the only fool walking around, in the open.  Suddenly I'm red with embarrassment.  I apologize you watched random sneaky character, that solo rp was... ummm... for story... and a releasing of tension.

Hey, We call you, not you call Us.

[hyzhenhok]

I always wondered when I played in the 'rinth.  Is it literally this lonely?  Or am I'm the only fool walking around in the open?

This makes me believe I am in fact the only fool walking around, in the open.  Suddenly I'm red with embarrassment.  I apologize you watched random sneaky character, that solo rp was... ummm... for story... and a releasing of tension.

Nah, the 'rinth is actually a lonely place. Yes, there are sometimes going to be stealthy characters watching you and not interacting, but that is true elsewhere in the game. The 'rinth's playability problems go beyond "everyone is hiding from each other" and is kinda outside the scope of this thread.

[lostinspace]

I came from another diku based mud where that shared the common hide, sneak, steal type of stealth commands, so it came naturally to me. Getting good at these things however, was something that took me a long while to figure out and it's never really easy to do without a little twinkish behavior. I'm at the point now where if I want to play a sneaky type character I'm going to save a spec-app for it and get some boosts to the harder to train skills. If you don't have a friend to steal from you're playing a dangerous game using novice steal on something. I'd rather skip the risk (and the twinkishness).

[hyzhenhok]

You don't need to twink to raise steal. Just do exactly what a newbie pickpocket should be doing: find low-risk targets of opportunity who will not be able to timely report you to law enforcement, and run if they catch you. Don't try again on that same person (or anyone nearby, if they shout about it) for the next IC week. Done. Personally, for most sneaky character concepts I find the idea of sitting in a room with someone trying to drill your thieving skillz much more ridiculous than just going out and trying it despite being bad at it.

Backstab and sap are the only stealth skills I feel are difficult to improve without twinking, unless your character is actually a psychotic mass-murderer.

[Jihelu]

"Backstab and sap are the only stealth skills I feel are difficult to improve without twinking, unless your character is actually a psychotic mass-murderer."
Welcome to the Labrynth enjoy your stay.

[Fredd]

The way i see it. Even without scan or listen you should be able to spot someone. I mean, an apprentice of sneak isnt climbing through the rafters like a ninja to avoid everyone.

You can. And most times you will at that level. Depending on several factors that include current room, weather, and applicable skills and stats.