Postmortem Explanations

[nauta]

Over in the player retention thread, ShaLeah suggested a postmortem explanation dropdown.  I like the idea.

It got some comment from Lizzie:

I've had characters killed and not known why. One time it was like a quadruple-cross. The ribbon connecting the people was so convoluted that I never would've seen it coming and would've thought it preposterous if anyone had told me about it. Another time it -seemed- random, disjointed and disconnected - BUT my gal had a couple of enemies, so it could've had something to do with that. I'll never know for sure. One time my gal was actually SUPPORTING some of the people who killed her (apparently she was killed by a bunch of people, as a group effort), but they never knew that because my gal was being secretive about it. I didn't learn about that til a couple of RL years later, through the OOC gossip web. When I found out, I thought - woah - awesome. That one died a spectacular death, but because she was dead - I never got to see how it ended up. So I was VERY happy to have learned she was the target of some huge conspiracy.

Personally, I -like- hearing about what leads up to my PC assassinations or who killed them or whatever. But I also don't bring it back into the game. Sadly, the same can't be said for every player. There are players who, if they learn what "really happened" and by whom, will take it personally and make it their business to disrupt the RP of those people who PKed their previous character. Even if it's just a few players who are like that, the few can really fuck things up for the many. And so - I'm okay with the policy of not being informed who/what/why. I wish it didn't need to be policy, but I understand why it does.

This came up last week too here.  One thing that bothers me both then and here is that it looks like people with OOC connections just get around the policy anyway.   In general, policies that are there because a few people could abuse something are the sorts of policies I'm inclined to think shouldn't be there since they suggest a default towards mistrust: if someone has a tendency to roll up revenge PCs, or of using knowledge from previous PCs to spoil storylines with their current, and so on, they should get rebuked through the normal means (player complaints; staff observations).

I like ShaLeah's idea of having a pulldown option for Postmortem Requests in the Report Tool, and putting some restrictions on it:

o You must wait at least X amount of time (fiddle with the number).

o Don't expect a very detailed answer, because we take storylines very seriously, and such knowledge can ruin your own fun and sometimes all we have is the PK report to go off of.

o The policy, if anything, should be to let you know, and the exceptions should be to withhold, with some explanation (the plot was too secret, etc. but we can say it was player driven).

Here's what happened a year ago when I wrote this to staff:

Details
Hi,

When (if ever) is it appropriate to ask into how a PC died?

If it is appropriate, then:

[redacted] died a few RL months ago: apparently someone [redacted] in [redacted] after [redacted]. What has bothered me is that I can't quite figure out who [redacted] might have ticked off enough to have [redacted]. Perhaps [redacted] overheard information [redacted] shouldn't have, perhaps [redacted] lied and is just a psycho killer, or perhaps it was something else. Obviously, this is just pure curiosity: I'd like to find closure for her story.

So, why did [redacted] die?

If it isn't appropriate, then ignore this.

Thanks so much! Nauta

And I got this as a reply:

Request Declined:

Nauta,

Your Question request has been resolved.

When?  Pretty much never, unfortunately!  That's one of the mysteries of the game--you may never know the full story of how a character died, especially one of your own characters (as you couldn't reasonably investigate your own PC's death, seeing as how they are dead!). 

Anyway, I can see arguments on both side which is why I've moved it over to its own thread but I for one, at this point, would like to see a balanced proposal for lifting the policy.  (It's not really a 'retention' issue for me, but I can see ShaLeah's points on that too.)

[Taven]

I think I agree with Jave. Essentially, that anything would have to be taken on a case by case basis, because plots can still be active or PCs can still be alive.

The hard part about that is that even if you ask and get rejected, if it's a case of the PC still being alive... That can still pin-point the PC. Let's say you play in Allanak, and there's a noble, Lady Wrinklebutt, who has been alive as long as anyone could remember. You ask about your PC's story 2 RL years after they die. Sounds safe, right?

Well, your request gets denied, and they can't really tell you why. At 2 RL years after the fact, Lady Wrinklebutt might be the only PC alive from the time, or one of just a handful. Thus, it would help unfairly pinpoint the PC just as part of the request.

I can see what you're saying about trying to limit OOC information by making an alternative legitimate channel with official rules, but I really do think it would just have to be case-by-case. It's still the case that talking about anything that happened to a PC still has no hard and fast rules, the "one year rule" is an unofficial one adopted by the playerbase. There's even some stuff that happens to your PC (usually magickally related) that can NEVER be revealed.

That said, it could be worth considering giving a way to the player who initiated the PK an option of communicating with their victims, after X time. Perhaps Lady Wrinklebutt isn't very concerned about you making a revenge PC, and the plot is old and done with, so without prompting (IE, not in response to any request from a victim), she decides to open a request. She asks staff to pass along the details of your death. Staff could then decide to edit them if needed (perhaps they reveal the existence of an assassin who is still alive and can't be sent) or send them along (they're vague enough but still okay).

That way, there's no harm and no foul. However, it does still depend on the player who initiated the PK both remembering and wishing to communicate with you. These things won't always be the case.

[CodeMaster]

I love the sentiment, but I think there may be too little in the PK reports to give the victim closure, thus creating a new problem.  It could even be a bullshit excuse that staff wanted more info on, but I don't think they get any joy out of participating in feuds like that.

Worse, the real context could be spread over multiple reports and extremely challenging to stitch together... it might truly require an interview with the player herself... and even then.

My advice: while you aren't allowed to contrive yourself into a revenge role with your next PC, but there's probably nothing wrong with making a PC on the same "side" as the PKer.  If you're lucky, you might see how they tick.  Unless they got ganked in the meantime, then let em rot.

[nauta]

That said, it could be worth considering giving a way to the player who initiated the PK an option of communicating with their victims, after X time. Perhaps Lady Wrinklebutt isn't very concerned about you making a revenge PC, and the plot is old and done with, so without prompting (IE, not in response to any request from a victim), she decides to open a request. She asks staff to pass along the details of your death. Staff could then decide to edit them if needed (perhaps they reveal the existence of an assassin who is still alive and can't be sent) or send them along (they're vague enough but still okay).

That way, there's no harm and no foul. However, it does still depend on the player who initiated the PK both remembering and wishing to communicate with you. These things won't always be the case.

Oh, that's a neat idea.  You could even include in the PK Report blurb on the pulldown: "Please note that the information in this report is useful for Postmortem Explanations.  Please indicate if you would like to withhold the information in this report from player requests for postmortem explanations (until X time; until the death of this PC; at a certain time).  You can at any time in the future come back and indicate that you give permission for release."  (Or something like that.)

ETA: To make it even easier on staff, you could ask people filing the PK report to include a blurb that could be sent to players requesting postmortem explanations (with proper scrubbing), e.g.: "Suck it, Nauta.  I hated your shoes.  That's why." 

[Lizzie]

I'm pretty much okay with not knowing any details at all. But I'd love to at least get a category. Like:

Your character Amosa was:

Randomly PKed
Assassinated by a PC                                                           X
Assassinated by a Staff-led NPC
Game-genned mob-killed
Staff-genned mob-killed
Shield walled or other non-intervened code death
Nyred 

She was killed because of:
Plotline
HRPT
RPT                                                                                  X
Non-human-led atmospheric reaction (eg walked off the shield wall with no climb skill)
Random PK*

If you are concerned about a Random PK death, please sent a request tool request under the category "Player Complaint." We will look into it, though we cannot guarantee a satisfactory outcome.

[ShaLeah]

I honestly think that post mortem SPECULATION is a -huge- part of why people pull away from Arm. Maybe it's time to change that.

I think people react better when they know the truth and I haven't lost ANY love or respect for the game after finding out behind the scenes things on several of my characters throughout the years.

To me "mystery" goes out the window when I'm butthurt. When I'm butthurt I want an explanation. For example, my first character died while AFK, sold out by her employer. No role play no nothing. I had no idea why.  It stung. I found out eventually that it was the templar she was kanking and I felt better.
One got whira-ganked, that one still annoys the fuck outta me 

There is also the valid option that your staff really MAY hate you. No one wants to talk about it but sometimes players and staff don't mesh well for whatever reason.  Maybe they make your character's life hell, accuse you of cheating, you retire butthurt or maybe an uber jozhal killed your dorf. Whatever, I don't foresee that kind abuse of power but you never know.

I'm pretty sure everyone will be an adult about it, won't mind waiting till everyone involved dies to find out. The key will be accepting the info maturely. I just think it'll help to get over it.

Will this happen? I dunno, I think it should, I think it will retain a lot of people though. People who leave angry.

[valeria]

I think this would be cool, even though I almost never die to PCs.  I'd like to have provided an explanation a coupel of times, especially with my templar.  What if it automatically withheld the information for an RL year?

I know that sometimes plots go on that long, but by that time people have probably already moved on.

[ShaLeah]

I think this would be cool, even though I almost never die to PCs.  I'd like to have provided an explanation a coupel of times, especially with my templar.  What if it automatically withheld the information for an RL year?

I know that sometimes plots go on that long, but by that time people have probably already moved on.

I like that too. A year seems more than fair. Maybe a year UNLESS characters pertinent are still alive?

[RogueGunslinger]

I never understood why people were stuck to this idea of things being okay to tell after a year. It should either be okay to tell, or not. The amount of time is meaningless. And if you told someone in the context of any other game that they'd have to wait a year to learn why they weren't actually fucked over as bad as it seems, they would laugh in your face and still leave.

It should have to do with whether there's still sensitive IC information out there or not, period. Some deaths never have that sensitive information attached. And some have it forever.

[Desertman]

On a few occasions I've had revenge characters made to come after me. Always only confirmed years later through the OOC grapevine. On two occasions I had become OOC friends with the people who did it and they were telling me about it and I'm like..."Yeah, I played that guy you came back to get your revenge on.". At that point it was just good for laugh because neither of us cared anymore and it helped that both times they failed and just died again heh.

I'm not sure how much I like the idea of postmortem explanations considering this.

People are odd. They won't just make a revenge PC immediately. If your PC lives for a RL year or more....you might have a guy holding a grudge from six PC's of his and eight months ago who then comes for you. He might be the good OOC friend of another guy you killed or had killed and now they both hate you OOC and he makes a revenge PC for his buddy.....this has also happened and has been confirmed.

It happens. If someone kills you eight months and six PC's later because you killed their PC or their friend's/girlfriend's PC six PC's ago....staff doesn't even track that I would imagine and by that time even the player who COULD file a complaint has forgotten and it doesn't even occur to them anymore that it might be any sort of revenge, even though it is.

We have such a small playerbase that a lot of times I don't directly kill people's PC's myself just because of it. I hire it out through a proxy because I know if I want to live any actual length of time I need to ensure my name doesn't get out through the OOC grapevine so that my PC makes OOC enemies.

A postmortem explanation to deaders who then get to find out why they were killed so that they can put the puzzle pieces together behind who did it would only increase this issue, and it is an issue.

Even if people don't make revenge PC's, they will absolutely hold grudges against you and it WILL make all future interactions between your PC and their new PC's biased towards finding a reason to hate you/make you their enemy. This happens so frequently that I just laugh when I see it now. For every one person who comes back to play with you with a new PC because they like you (happens) there is another one who hates you and will hate you with every PC they have for all time.

I can't blame them I guess. That's human nature. But it is a problem we have to consider when considering something like this change.

[nauta]

Agreed (with RGS, haven't read Desertman's post yet).

In my view, if the goal is to avoid 'butthurt', which is a legitimate point, then forcing people to wait a year wouldn't achieve that.  

Perhaps this as a proposal for the language of the pulldown / policy:

"You may request a postmortem explanation at any time.  Our policy is to reveal such information provided the consent of the player that filed the PK report.  All information deemed IC-sensitive will be scrubbed.  If we can't reveal the information, a category will be provided -- player-driven, staff-driven.  Bear in mind, the information we have available often comes entirely from PK reports, and so we may not have all the answers.  Remember as well that it is against the rules to use information that you acquire on a previous PC, or via the postmortem explanation, on your current or future PCs.  So don't do that.  WE ARE WATCHING YOU."

Couple this with Taven's suggestions on having the PK report-writer signal consent (or a release waiver), and perhaps ask them to include an IC-insensitive postmortem explanation that staff can use as part of the postmortem explanation, and I think it'd be a workable system.

I also think that if staff files a PK report, this should be pretty much automatic.  If staff enters into our storylines in a violent means such that it results in the death of our characters, then I think it'd be a positive thing for them to provide us with the chance for a postmortem explanation -- a quick: Sorry that your PC died.  If you'd like a postmortem explanation, please ask!  (Being proactive here can go a long way, in my view, to combat the paranoid suspicion that 'staff killed me because evil.')

[ShaLeah]

I -love- the idea of a PK report post mortem addendum. Give the pkiller, and maybe, even, the person who hires them (at the time he/she lets staff know they're killing someone, an option to say that will automatically be attached to the "Sorry you're dead! Come back soon!" email.
Something along the lines of:

You've received the following message from the killer:
My character was hired to kill yours. He/she was paid $X. Your char was hard to kill!
In addition you've received this message:
I hired the assassin because my Lord Templar wants to frame Oash for it to gain the favor of Borsail. Great ending scene!!

If those player messages regarding the PK aren't sufficient to placate a little butthurt THEN they can ask staff for more explanation.


Regarding long lived characters and revenge... You're not gonna be able to track everything and every one but hell, since you can't stop it anyway, if you're gonna make a revenge character 7 chars after Dman's char killed yours and you succeed, good for you, it's definitely personal at that point and you're a twink. Feel good about yourself, shmuck, if I catch you I'll stalk you with ALL my chars and ... just kidding... That's more than a little cuckoo.

There is a scathing indignation sometimes when pk'd and a lot of people take it personally, oocly personally, like it's them the player not the character.  I've seen great players leave because of it. I personally think it could prevent the loss of players.

[Desertman]

I've had people go OOC nuts on me in-game (using the OOC command) on four occasions in the last two years during moments of stress either insulting me or threatening me....and every time I was in the right and not breaking any rules as confirmed by staff.

I hate to say it but I do not trust this playerbase with postmortem explanations regarding my PC's.

When someone kills one of my PC's, I am just as likely to envy them and how they did it and come back and play with them later and want to be their minion. I can think of two people right now I would love to do this for in fact and THEY KILLED ME.

That is rare though in my experience. MOST of the time if someone can find out who killed them, they will do everything in their power to try and harm them in the future or make them their enemy or just in general sway their interactions with them into the negative for no reason other than it's their form of OOC revenge.

While I agree with your sentiment about them being little shitfaces and You and I taking the higher road being our own sort of revenge on them, it doesn't bring back my PC's when they get "revenge-stomped" or held back in some way due to OOC sentiments.

I would rather just not give them the information until at least a year after my PC is long dead.

I think that rule works well enough for what we are dealing with.

I know I can't stop everything, but I do think we can take measures to not openly and willingly give them ammunition. I would rather not be able to stop 80% of it than compound the problem three fold. I already take IC measures to ensure I can OOC'ly survive the game on this front. If this were implemented even those measures would be bypassed in many situations.

[nauta]

I've had people go OOC nuts on me in-game (using the OOC command) on four occasions in the last two years during moments of stress either insulting me or threatening me....and every time I was in the right and not breaking any rules as confirmed by staff.

I hate to say it but I do not trust this playerbase with postmortem explanations regarding my PC's.

When someone kills one of my PC's, I am just as likely to envy them and how they did it and come back and play with them later and want to be their minion. I can think of two people right now I would love to do this for in fact and THEY KILLED ME.

That is rare though in my experience. MOST of the time if someone can find out who killed them, they will do everything in their power to try and harm them in the future or make them their enemy or just in general sway their interactions with them into the negative for no reason other than it's their form of OOC revenge.

While I agree with your sentiment about them being little shitfaces and You and I taking the higher road being our own sort of revenge on them, it doesn't bring back my PC's when they get "revenge-stomped" or held back in some way due to OOC sentiments.

I would rather just not give them the information until at least a year after my PC is long dead.

I think that rule works well enough for what we are dealing with.

I know I can't stop everything, but I do think we can take measures to not openly and willingly give them ammunition. I would rather not be able to stop 80% of it than compound the problem three fold. I already take IC measures to ensure I can OOC'ly survive the game on this front. If this were implemented even those measures would be bypassed in many situations.

That's some pretty compelling evidence, and if this is the case with others -- I've had two revenge PCs that I recognized in my short time here -- then almost certainly its something to consider.

Desertman: Would adding to the PK report the option to tell staff when they can release the information meet the problem?  E.g., I agree that this information can be released [now, 1 IG year after my death, never, 1 RL year later]?

It wouldn't be laissez faire but conditional on the consent and will of the PKer -- some PKers might be more 'whatever' about revenge PCs, some might be more paranoid, etc.

Moreover, in either case, at least the person who died would know if it was player-driven or staff-driven, which might go some distance towards avoiding the 'butthurt', and if it isn't an issue of 'butthurt', but just an issue of storytelling -- for me, I just wanted to know how the story went -- then a PKer who says 'wait a year after my PC is dead' -- is perfectly fine.

And just for clarification, the current policy is 'never'; I'd like to find a solution where it could be more 'case-by-case sometimes', but fair to the PKer as well.

ETA: I also want to stress again: anything that motivates people away from the 'ooc grapevine' has got to be a good thing, in my book.

[Desertman]

I've had people go OOC nuts on me in-game (using the OOC command) on four occasions in the last two years during moments of stress either insulting me or threatening me....and every time I was in the right and not breaking any rules as confirmed by staff.

I hate to say it but I do not trust this playerbase with postmortem explanations regarding my PC's.

When someone kills one of my PC's, I am just as likely to envy them and how they did it and come back and play with them later and want to be their minion. I can think of two people right now I would love to do this for in fact and THEY KILLED ME.

That is rare though in my experience. MOST of the time if someone can find out who killed them, they will do everything in their power to try and harm them in the future or make them their enemy or just in general sway their interactions with them into the negative for no reason other than it's their form of OOC revenge.

While I agree with your sentiment about them being little shitfaces and You and I taking the higher road being our own sort of revenge on them, it doesn't bring back my PC's when they get "revenge-stomped" or held back in some way due to OOC sentiments.

I would rather just not give them the information until at least a year after my PC is long dead.

I think that rule works well enough for what we are dealing with.

I know I can't stop everything, but I do think we can take measures to not openly and willingly give them ammunition. I would rather not be able to stop 80% of it than compound the problem three fold. I already take IC measures to ensure I can OOC'ly survive the game on this front. If this were implemented even those measures would be bypassed in many situations.

That's some pretty compelling evidence, and if this is the case with others -- I've had two revenge PCs that I recognized in my short time here -- then almost certainly its something to consider.

Desertman: Would adding to the PK report the option to tell staff when they can release the information meet the problem?  E.g., I agree that this information can be released [now, 1 IG year after my death, never, 1 RL year later]?

It wouldn't be laissez faire but conditional on the consent and will of the PKer -- some PKers might be more 'whatever' about revenge PCs, some might be more paranoid, etc.

Moreover, in either case, at least the person who died would know if it was player-driven or staff-driven, which might go some distance towards avoiding the 'butthurt', and if it isn't an issue of 'butthurt', but just an issue of storytelling -- for me, I just wanted to know how the story went -- then a PKer who says 'wait a year after my PC is dead' -- is perfectly fine.

And just for clarification, the current policy is 'never'; I'd like to find a solution where it could be more 'case-by-case sometimes', but fair to the PKer as well.

A year after my death they don't need my permission as I understand it. Anyone can share just about anything at that point. We already have a rule governing that to my knowledge. If all involved PC's are long dead by at  least a RL year, you can share the info so long as that info doesn't divulge IC secrets. (At least that is how I understand it?)

My issue with telling them right away goes beyond concerns about myself as well.

Here is a pretty basic scenario:

Assassin John is hired by Noble Jack to kill Merchant Suzy. Assassin John kills Merchant Suzy.

Now, what we proposing we tell Merchant Suzy's player?

"Hi, I'm Assassin John, I killed your PC because I was hired by Noble Jack to do it.".

The obvious issue here is now Merchant Suzy's player can make revenge PC's, or her husband can, or her best friend can...to come after both Assassin John or Noble Jack. They might even wait a RL year, get a Templar role approved, then intentionally not show favor to Noble Jack or Assassin John just because they know OOC what happened now. The list of how this might screw them goes on and on.

What if Noble Jack doesn't consent that his part in the story could even be divulged? Why does Assassin John have the power to give Noble Jack's player consent to have his PC included in the postmortem explanation.

So maybe we take the part about Noble Jack out right? That makes sense. Maybe Merchant Suzy's player gets this....

"Hi, I'm Assassin John, I was hired to kill your PC by another PC. That is why they died."

Seems harmless right?

Well, now what if Merchant Suzy only really had one enemy and she knows that? What if she KNOWS that Noble Jack hated her, but that is really the only person who hated her. Now she can put the puzzle pieces together. She now knows a well off PC who can afford an assassin hired an assassin to kill her. It isn't much of a leap for her to correctly assume it was Noble Jack. Now, Assassin John has divulged Noble Jack's involvement AGAIN, even if accidentally, without Noble Jack's player's consent.

So now what do we tell her?

"Hi, your PC was killed by a PC. That is all we can tell you."

Well, they pretty much already know that. But that's really the only safe way to go about doing this.

I'm just not sure there is any way to do this that doesn't potentially screw someone.

[Marauder Moe]

Yeah, I kinda feel like there are too many tricky corner-cases and pitfalls to make this system work in a reasonably fair and objective manner.

[nauta]

Yeah, I kinda feel like there are too many tricky corner-cases and pitfalls to make this system work in a reasonably fair and objective manner.

I wouldn't give up too early, MM.  I'll have more to say to Dman's good cases, but I'll wait until others pipe in with corner cases.

[Norcal]

Yeah, I kinda feel like there are too many tricky corner-cases and pitfalls to make this system work in a reasonably fair and objective manner.

This.

And most of the time when a PC dies, I know why.  Poor life choices.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

When you die, its because you left the gates, even though there's literally no way for anyone but criminals to survive without leaving the gates.

[Lizzie]

A year after my death they don't need my permission as I understand it. Anyone can share just about anything at that point. We already have a rule governing that to my knowledge. If all involved PC's are long dead by at  least a RL year, you can share the info so long as that info doesn't divulge IC secrets. (At least that is how I understand it?)

My issue with telling them right away goes beyond concerns about myself as well.

Here is a pretty basic scenario:

Assassin John is hired by Noble Jack to kill Merchant Suzy. Assassin John kills Merchant Suzy.

Now, what we proposing we tell Merchant Suzy's player?

"Hi, I'm Assassin John, I killed your PC because I was hired by Noble Jack to do it.".


"Hi, I'm Assassin John, I was hired to kill your PC by another PC. That is why they died."

So now what do we tell her?

"Hi, your PC was killed by a PC. That is all we can tell you."

Well, they pretty much already know that. But that's really the only safe way to go about doing this.

I'm just not sure there is any way to do this that doesn't potentially screw someone.

That's why I suggested what I suggested earlier in the thread.

Your character was assassinated as a result of an RPT.

Your character was randomlly PKed for no specific reason.

Your character was PKed for a plotline reason, but it was not an assassination.

Your character was killed by a game-generated mob, because you were in that spot where they gen.

Your character was Nyred, because Nyr.

See, this way you know the -general- idea of why your character is dead. You would only know who the killer was, if you saw the killer when he/she was killing your PC. The point is that the staff acknowledges it was a "legitimate" death as a result of roleplay, and not just because some noob dwarf warrior went to town on your noob city elf merchant right out of the hall of kings.

[BadSkeelz]

That's a good list, Lizzie.

It just needs to have "killed because you were keeping someone up to late" and you'd have every reason I've ever PKed someone.

[Desertman]

A year after my death they don't need my permission as I understand it. Anyone can share just about anything at that point. We already have a rule governing that to my knowledge. If all involved PC's are long dead by at  least a RL year, you can share the info so long as that info doesn't divulge IC secrets. (At least that is how I understand it?)

My issue with telling them right away goes beyond concerns about myself as well.

Here is a pretty basic scenario:

Assassin John is hired by Noble Jack to kill Merchant Suzy. Assassin John kills Merchant Suzy.

Now, what we proposing we tell Merchant Suzy's player?

"Hi, I'm Assassin John, I killed your PC because I was hired by Noble Jack to do it.".


"Hi, I'm Assassin John, I was hired to kill your PC by another PC. That is why they died."

So now what do we tell her?

"Hi, your PC was killed by a PC. That is all we can tell you."

Well, they pretty much already know that. But that's really the only safe way to go about doing this.

I'm just not sure there is any way to do this that doesn't potentially screw someone.

That's why I suggested what I suggested earlier in the thread.

Your character was assassinated as a result of an RPT.

Your character was randomlly PKed for no specific reason.

Your character was PKed for a plotline reason, but it was not an assassination.

Your character was killed by a game-generated mob, because you were in that spot where they gen.

Your character was Nyred, because Nyr.

See, this way you know the -general- idea of why your character is dead. You would only know who the killer was, if you saw the killer when he/she was killing your PC. The point is that the staff acknowledges it was a "legitimate" death as a result of roleplay, and not just because some noob dwarf warrior went to town on your noob city elf merchant right out of the hall of kings.

These I'm cool with. 

[Malken]

Your character Amosa was killed because:

you slept with my bf, you fat ho/

[AdamBlue]

Your character, Dongus the Wongus, was slain by: Keebles Weebleson for:

U WOT M8. I HERD U TALKIN SHIT LOIK I WUDNT FIND OUT M8 COME @ ME NEXT CHARACTER AT THE SPAN I'LL BE W8'N'B8'N SO BRING AS MANY M8'S AS U WANT FGT

[Lizzie]

That's a good list, Lizzie.

It just needs to have "killed because you were keeping someone up to late" and you'd have every reason I've ever PKed someone.

Heh - so you DID play that templar?

i'mma keel j00 ded lolol
love
ur viktm

[BadSkeelz]

I've never played a Templar, but I have misinterpreted threats made at 3am as commands to kill.

[valeria]

I wouldn't support anything that gave people information right away. I think it would be fine, cool even, with a holding period.

People tend to use a year as a guideline because that tends to be about how long it takes for characters and plots to cycle out (with a few exceptions). The withholding for a year wouldn't be to prevent hurt feelings or whatever. Those already happen. The point would be to not spoil active plots with giving people explanations right away.

That's why I said automatically held for a year. It doesn't mean staff couldn't flag it to be held longer if the pc involved was still alive, or the plot was still active, etc.

[Tuannon]

I've never played a Templar, but I have misinterpreted threats made at 3am as commands to kill.

I remember a certain Borsail Wyvern Sergeant killing someone along these lines.. Oh the days of Ceylara.

[Dar]

Here's an idea. Upon death, you turn into an ethereal ghost with a sizeable chunk of hp and the limitations of ... your regular type of drov ghosts (cant go into specifics, because IC). That ghost exists until dead to usual reasons they normally die, or until they log off. Beings who are able to commune with ghosts ... get to commune with them in ways that are possible now.

Then it'll be left up to the player who killed him to give postmortem explanation, or at least to have a hint on it, or at the very least offer 'some' RP with the dead body that would bring the dead player closure.

This is of course up for debate. Perhaps allow the ghost to roam freely. This makes it harder for pull off silent assassination hits, but there are only so few beings who are able to commune with ghosts, the odds of finding one and somehow interacting is small, although possible!.

Have the ghost unable to leave the room of his death.

Have the ghost unable to leave the 'zone' of his death.

Have the ghost auto follow the person that killed him and unable to unfollow him except by quitting out and moving on to the next chara, or by dying to ways the ghosts die to.

Have the ghost be able to resurre ... naaaaaaah.

[Desertman]

[Jihelu]

If the ghost is Drov or Nilaz give them abilities to fuck with people c'mon.

[Saellyn]

Nope. I disagree. This would cause just as many problems.

[bcw81]

Not to mention that that's not how... I mean... Well it's hard to explain without going into specifics.

That's not how Zalanthas and magick work.

[Erythil]

TBQH I expect that staff often doesn't know and doesn't track how characters died, unless they were killed by leadership roles who are held accountable for their additional power and influence.

[Taven]

TBQH I expect that staff often doesn't know and doesn't track how characters died, unless they were killed by leadership roles who are held accountable for their additional power and influence.

Well, you're supposed to both submit a request and wish up (at least the latter) before killing people, and if you didn't submit a report before, you should certainly include it in a report after.

Not that everyone makes reports, but those are the general expectations when PK happens, as far as I understand it--unless it's a massive thing like a war/major battle, of course.

[Majikal]

YourPC died to Majikal in room #130912312, amen.

There's your closure. 


I dislike the room for abuse if something like this came into effect, part of playing a killer/assassin is complete anonymity and minimal knowledge of your pc's shenanigans being out there, that just as much ic as it is ooc. If word gets out ooc that your pc is causing problems for x amount of people or killed x amount of people then that's going to start bleeding into the game, it happens. So even if it was something so simple as a blurb 'your pc was assassinated', things could be assumed and a killer/culprit figured out. One more way of your pc killer getting outted on an ooc level that has potential of effecting future gameplay around your pc.


I've died and been hella curious as to why or who. As a killer, I value the ic anonymity as much as the ooc, unfortunately. I wouldn't trade the one to benefit the other.

[Jihelu]

I feel like if you die to sheer stupidity, like a room exploding due to the staffs causing Tek to blow up all of Allanak, you should get a message post death saying "Also Allanak exploded" or something though that might be hard to track.
Then again if staff does some huge shit like that they might already do that.
Probs not.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think it's a rule or expectation that you report a PK or wish up before hand unless you are in a sponsored, leadership, or militia role.

[Majikal]

I don't think it's a rule or expectation that you report a PK or wish up before hand unless you are in a sponsored, leadership, or militia role.

It's definitely a rule and an expectation.

From WISH

When situations arise that may result in your character killing another player character, staff ask that you take the time to wish up. A quick wish along the lines of 'About to kill Amos' is all that is needed. This gives staff the ability to observe the situation. We understand that there may be times where wishing up prior just isn't possible.

From REPORT

If your character kills another PC make sure to include this in a report.

While not REQUIRED from non-leadership pc's to send in reports, pk reports are in good taste for both staff/victim if the victim follows up the pk with a request/complaint concerning the death.

[Saellyn]

It's not a "rule", it's an expectation. It's "nice" for you to wish up to let staff know, either before or immeditaely after the fact, and then to send in a report explaining the why. It's not REQUIRED, as per the rules, that you do so. It just reduces staff workload of having to track down a ton of logs.

[Akariel]

Think of me when you're murdering that guy.

I want to murder too, but I'm staff.
I can't do things like 'kill' or 'maim' you for fun like I used to do as a player.

Help me live vicariously through you, send in your PK reports today.

[Jihelu]

Think of me when you're murdering that guy.

I want to murder too, but I'm staff.
I can't do things like 'kill' or 'maim' you for fun like I used to do as a player.

Help me live vicariously through you, send in your PK reports today.

Don't lie to me.
I know you get to animate [REDACTED]

[Akariel]

Addendum: I now have total permission to commit warcrimes against Jihelu.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I've never been truly OOCly upset by a character pk. I always give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Dar]

I once had this sent to me. i am still greatly thankful to Calavera for doing this.


Your Character Report request has been resolved.

In the shifting darkness of your fevered, poisoned dreams, you sense a shadow looming over you, many times the size of even the tallest elf. Something moves in the shadows, enveloping you, its touch as gentle as silk. You feel yourself lifted in the dark, limbs dangling uselessly, but the warm softness of whatever is touching you is unabating.

Gradually, the gentle touch grows tighter, more restrictive, more like binding ropes than a gentle caress. Something jerks at your shoulder, and your eyes flutter open long enough to see the following: a crown of gleaming eyes like jewels, staring into your own with an utterly alien, dark detachment.

This is the face that meets Rena as the last of his consciousness is burned away by poison and liquified by the fangs of a gigantic, mottled-orange spider as it welcomes him back to the shadows.

(OOC: Damn it, I didn't realise the poison would kick in that quickly. I meant to carry on this scene longer and I hope you had fun. Thank you for rolling with the punches so well.)

Calavera
Armageddon Staff

[AdamBlue]

I would like to see Drovians and Nilazi be able to turn into ghosts upon death, with Drovians able to hang around as badass phantoms that go around spooking people and Nilazi able to come back to life, but only after finding the corpse of a beast and defeating it's soul in the ethereal.

[Lizzie]

I would like to see Drovians and Nilazi be able to turn into ghosts upon death, with Drovians able to hang around as badass phantoms that go around spooking people and Nilazi able to come back to life, but only after finding the corpse of a beast and defeating it's soul in the ethereal.

You know that's make a great idea for returning sorcerers to playability as a main guild again. The previous sorc stuff - plus because they get (a) (b) and (c) ic things, they can now do that as well. But only once they're fully branched and discover the "master-craft sorc only" doodad that allows it to happen.

However if they're beheaded when they're freshly killed they can't return at all.

[Desertman]

I would like to see Drovians and Nilazi be able to turn into ghosts upon death, with Drovians able to hang around as badass phantoms that go around spooking people and Nilazi able to come back to life, but only after finding the corpse of a beast and defeating it's soul in the ethereal.

You know that's make a great idea for returning sorcerers to playability as a main guild again. The previous sorc stuff - plus because they get (a) (b) and (c) ic things, they can now do that as well. But only once they're fully branched and discover the "master-craft sorc only" doodad that allows it to happen.

However if they're beheaded when they're freshly killed they can't return at all.

[Delirium]

If you brought back full sorcs, no one with the karma would want to bother with a subguild sorc.

Guaranteed.

On topic... I try to give people a hint why they're dying when I kill them, but otherwise? Eh, we've all had abrupt deaths. Deal with it, grasshoppers.

[nauta]

A half-thought-out idea: The Tales of the Mighty Dead (Or: Curiousity and the Killed Cat).

(This won't address some of the motivations -- e.g., resolution-when-butthurt -- but it's loosely related.)

Summary A player-driven 'lost connections' thread / website, where you can post (using an anonymous or alternative account) various things like:

o Hey, I had a lot of fun playing with Bob during the summer of 2014.  Whatever happened to Bob?

o Hey, I played Bob during the summery of 2014.  I remember Sue, Joe, and Jim fondly.  Whatever happened to you guys?  Heck, what happened to me?  We were sitting around having dinner then bam lights out.  Anyone want to tell me what happened to me?

o Hey, I played with Bob for three months in the summer of 2014.  Bob kept scratching his left ear.  What was up with that?  (NB: It's not just about postmortem explanations.)

Goal / Motivations

o Bragging. For me, I do have this urge to share at least some of the story my PC was involved in - but I don't really want to taint my account with those stories - nor do I want to taint your account with your stories -- so anonymous seems to be the way to go on this.  I also really enjoy reading some of the stories floating around out there - Gage Gritshaw, for instance, Raleris, etc.

o Missed Connections.  What really motivated this: I was thinking about writing up a story about my time in X, and I was going through character reports, and there are a lot of characters in there that just disappeared, or whose motivations weren't clear, or who were just amazing characters, and I wanted to include them in the story, but there's really no way (other than this purported 'ooc grapevine') of finding them and following up with them.  I'm not into the 'ooc grapevine', if it even exists.

o Closure / Fleshing out stories. Ditto.

What form would it take? When I first started thinking about this, I kind of had the idea of a rate-my-professor style website, where you'd post the name of your character (rough dates and area) and people could comment on it.  Then I thought about a craigslist-style 'lost connections' thread, where you post some details, then continue to comment online.  Then I thought of a reddit-style AMA thread. I don't know, someone more clever than me about the technical can probably flesh out the details.  Hopefully the idea is clear enough.

Importantly, I think this would only work well (for me at least) if we used anonymous accounts or alternative accounts, and it'd have to be somewhat regulated - being a part of the gdb would force the various rules on the discussion.  (Just as a personal thing, I've found discovering the gdb account of people I play with to, more often than not, somehow affect things.  Of course, that's while I'm playing... maybe it's different after a year has passed.  I'm still inclined to think this would only work well if it were anonymous / unassociated with gdb accounts.)

Anyway, there's the idea (some vehicle for discussing previous characters in an anonymous environment) and there's the implementation (what form it would take).  

Is the idea at all feasible?

Would it have to be anonymous?

How could it be implemented?

ETA: If we were feeling really adventurous and staff wanted to add some code, a pulldown or vehicle for sending in questions to dead PCs would be neat.  It could be a pulldown on the Request Tool: Communicate with the Dead (monitored by staff) where you would open up a request with a dead PC, and they could respond or not, and it'd be all there so staff can make sure there's no lies or whatever.  (Or something.)

[Inks]

You are expected generally to file a pk report within 24 hours of the kill. I did not know this until I got a message from staff. I had always sent a report immediately before this one time.

I would love to be able to explain to some people I pk'd more than a year ago why it happened, or have my pk reports passed on to the player, as long as all relevant parties were dead or stored.

[Saellyn]

My explanation to the persons I kill:

Sorry, someone wanted your ass dead so I deaded you. Sorry!