Arboretum revamp discussion

[whitt]

The door prevents breeds, elves, and other ne'er-do-wells arrows from getting in.

fixed that for ya.

[Rathustra]

That and the horde of starving beggars.

[Jingo]

I don't like this change. It means I need to learn how to spell arb-whatever.

[LauraMars]

The door prevents breeds, elves, and other ne'er-do-wells from getting in.

No, the bouncer does that.  The door isn't locked.  Shadow still works.

The door prevents breeds, elves, and other ne'er-do-wells arrows from getting in.

fixed that for ya.

It OOCly prevents arrows. It codedly prevents arrows. ICly there are windows to this place, and balconies that nobles are sitting on that a Zalanthan assassin could conceivably shoot at. If we're putting doors on taverns now to OOCly prevent assassination attempt by projectile, then I don't know what the game is coming to.  

That and the horde of starving beggars.

Question: How does a non locking door and a single man keep a horde of beggars from going anywhere?  Answer: They don't.  The beggars aren't mobbing the place because there are other considerations at play that are not dictated by lines of code, but by the story and the world.  There are virtual armed guards, soldiers, and templars going into this place all the time.  The beggars aren't deciding not to go into the Arboretum because there's a door, but because they know they'll be slaughtered en masse if they do.  They're dying in droves out there every day, because this bastion of Highborn privilege is the last desperate hope they have to live.  If the next argument is that the door prevents beggars from seeing what's inside, and losing their minds with jealousy, my rebuttal is that the beggars know what's in the building.  They've always known.  They wouldn't be sitting outside, pleading for a single sip of water for their dying babies, if they didn't.  See also: windows, balconies. But this single door, and the curtain it replaced, won't prevent a mob from entering an area.  Again: windows, balconies.  If we're going to answer IC circumstances with OOC explanations then the human beggars should be able to get in.  The bouncer will codedly let them.  

By the way, Trader's never had a door. It just had that bouncer - that same bouncer.  And yeah, newbs walking by could understand that they were walking by a tavern, because they'd look into the room and see The Trader's Inn [W] instead of the very mysterious "The door is closed".  And yeah, then they'd go in, meet nobles and merchants, and get drawn into their stories. And yeah, people tried to kill nobles through the open doorway.  And it was awesome.

I criticize because I care.  I want The Arboretum Bar to be a destination, and I don't want that destination to be at all confusing.

[Saellyn]

The door prevents breeds, elves, and other ne'er-do-wells from getting in.

No, the bouncer does that.  The door isn't locked.  Shadow still works.

The door prevents breeds, elves, and other ne'er-do-wells arrows from getting in.

fixed that for ya.

It OOCly prevents arrows. It codedly prevents arrows. ICly there are windows to this place, and balconies that nobles are sitting on that a Zalanthan assassin could conceivably shoot at. If we're putting doors on taverns now to OOCly prevent assassination attempt by projectile, then I don't know what the game is coming to.  

That and the horde of starving beggars.

Question: How does a non locking door and a single man keep a horde of beggars from going anywhere?  Answer: They don't.  The beggars aren't mobbing the place because there are other considerations at play that are not dictated by lines of code, but by the story and the world.  There are virtual armed guards, soldiers, and templars going into this place all the time.  The beggars aren't deciding not to go into the Arboretum because there's a door, but because they know they'll be slaughtered en masse if they do.  They're dying in droves out there every day, because this bastion of Highborn privilege is the last desperate hope they have to live.  If the next argument is that the door prevents beggars from seeing what's inside, and losing their minds with jealousy, my rebuttal is that the beggars know what's in the building.  They've always known.  They wouldn't be sitting outside, pleading for a single sip of water for their dying babies, if they didn't.  See also: windows, balconies. But this single door, and the curtain it replaced, won't prevent a mob from entering an area.  Again: windows, balconies.  If we're going to answer IC circumstances with OOC explanations then the human beggars should be able to get in.  The bouncer will codedly let them.  

By the way, Trader's never had a door. It just had that bouncer - that same bouncer.  And yeah, newbs walking by could understand that they were walking by a tavern, because they'd look into the room and see The Trader's Inn [W] instead of the very mysterious "The door is closed".  And yeah, then they'd go in, meet nobles and merchants, and get drawn into their stories. And yeah, people tried to kill nobles through the open doorway.  And it was awesome.

I criticize because I care.  I want The Arboretum Bar to be a destination, and I don't want that destination to be at all confusing.

... So you're okay with a guy drawing a bow, nocking an arrow in the middle of the street and firing it into a building, probably more than once, with no repercussions whatsoever because of how hiding and crimcode works? Nah. No thanks. I dealt with that once or twice and it was completely fucking retarded when it happened.

[LauraMars]

Why not just permanently station actual npc soldiers outside the tavern who will hit the fellow in the head if he starts shooting (or throwing knives, or whatever)?  That seems like a more ICly realistic preventative to me than a coded door to a tavern filled with balconies and windows.

And for that matter, the rest of the taverns in the game still have no doors, and so our city-based assassins can still use the people inside of all those as pincussions.

[Saellyn]

Because that isn't how it works.

[LauraMars]

Ok, so put doors on all the taverns in the game if people are dropping like flies to arrows and knives.  Be prepared for confused newbs, but that's our solution.

OR, the code needs to be adjusted to actually punish people for shooting/throwing inside the city.  Is it really not?  That seems like a huge oversight.

[Jihelu]

How you fix it.
If someone shoots a bow in a crowded city they get tackled, least during day time and certain parts, and get the shit beat out of them.

[LauraMars]

How you fix it.
If someone shoots a bow in a crowded city they get tackled, least during day time and certain parts, and get the shit beat out of them.

Yes.

[nauta]

Ok, so put doors on all the taverns in the game if people are dropping like flies to arrows and knives.  Be prepared for confused newbs, but that's our solution.

OR, the code needs to be adjusted to actually punish people for shooting/throwing inside the city.  Is it really not?  That seems like a huge oversight.

I'm with you LauraMars: (a) open doors are helpful in public places; (b) the occasional knife or arrow adds excitement.

Re: Saellyn)

The current crimcode makes it really hard to toss a knife or shoot a bow into a bar with soldiers stationed nearby.  Really, really hard.  The risk is very high.  It makes it almost impossible to toss two or shoot two with a soldier stationed nearby.

[Saellyn]

In my experience that is not the case.

[RogueGunslinger]

In my experience that is not the case.

On which end? Because in my experience the threat of 12 half-giant soldiers clobbering you into a paste is a very real threat when doing anything combative in the city when there's soldiers nearby. The number of times I've seen arrows/knives being shot/thrown into a tavern can be counted on one hand. Never seen a death.

I can understand the noble-area having a door but not the commoner-area. I haven't been to this place to see how it functions though.

[Inks]

It's pretty risky, yeah. Only if conditions are perfect can you pull it off. Crim code is fierce. Plus being crim flagged is risky to get away, too. Criminal players represent.

I have only seen it happen once while spectating.

The more dangerous the city the better. That being said, I am fine with the noble section having a door.

[Saellyn]

There shouldn't have to be a soldier NPC hanging out for people to reconsider doing stupid things, but people do them anyways because the code allows it to happen. That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Delirium]

I agree with Laura Mars.

[Seeker]

I agree with Laura Mars.

[Lizzie]

Why not just permanently station actual npc soldiers outside the tavern who will hit the fellow in the head if he starts shooting (or throwing knives, or whatever)?  That seems like a more ICly realistic preventative to me than a coded door to a tavern filled with balconies and windows.

And for that matter, the rest of the taverns in the game still have no doors, and so our city-based assassins can still use the people inside of all those as pincussions.

Because if the soldier is in the room -next- to someone who attempts to attack another character in that -other- room, then that soldier will run away from his post to arrest the offending party. That's how the soldier code works. If the soldier is NOT clanned AOD, and tries to attack someone shooting into the Arboretum, then the NPC soldiers who ARE clanned AOD, will arrest that soldier.

That's just the nature of the code, they'd have to recode and add new code to accommodate "NPCs who are normally coded to arrest people, but can now only arrest people in this one specific room and not run off to arrest someone in the room next door."

And that would also be very clunky, because if that was the only NPC soldier in close proximity to an actual crime, it would make no sense for him to NOT walk away and arrest the criminal in the room next door.

Basically - it's important to make some attempt to just accept that the code is clunky, and roleplay the *intent* of the atmosphere. We have to trust other players at some point, this seems like a good place for it. And if they behave in a way that is contrary to the *intent* of the atmosphere, then a player complaint could be sent.

[BadSkeelz]

Remove guards, remove archery and throw, kill your target in melee like God intended.

[LauraMars]

So if I'm understanding what people are saying correctly, throwing a knife or shooting an arrow at someone in another room will not trigger the crim code against your person - regardless of whether or not it connects?  Even if you are standing right beside a soldier?  That seems... weird.  If it's true, I don't really think there needs to be a convoluted code solution for that - just make it so that if you shoot or throw a weapon at someone in an adjacent room and you're standing in a populated area, you receive a crim flag.

[Mook]

Good times.

[Akariel]

Please be considerate of the game world when using this skill. The code will allow for you to shoot into any adjacent room but such shots may be unrealistic in light of how the rooms are described. Repeated unrealistic use of the skill may result disciplinary action from staff as merited.

We're currently looking into fixing these issues.

[CodeMaster]

So if I'm understanding what people are saying correctly, throwing a knife or shooting an arrow at someone in another room will not trigger the crim code against your person - regardless of whether or not it connects?  Even if you are standing right beside a soldier?  That seems... weird.  If it's true, I don't really think there needs to be a convoluted code solution for that - just make it so that if you shoot or throw a weapon at someone in an adjacent room and you're standing in a populated area, you receive a crim flag.

No, pretty sure the law will notice.

I think Lizzie was saying that these soldiers could end up moving off their posts.  Once they do, all bets are off, and people can repeatedly shoot into the busy tavern with impunity.   I think it's a valid consideration, but a "glass door" would be nice to do a quick headcount.

[Inks]

If you did the scenario you mentioned you would be instantly arrested with no time to hide or draw, LauraMars.

[Renenutet]

Back to the door. We can discuss amongst  staff. Maybe the door can go. The feedback is definitely appreciated.

If we take out the door the npc who opens it for you to go out will be unemployed. Let it be upon your heads.