Climb / Hide changes -- Discussion Thread

[nessalin]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg907531.html#msg907531

[Delirium]

Nice changes for realism.... now maybe make climb/hide a little less binary? Especially climb. Falling on your neck feels like a stunt out of a vaudeville act not a post apoc RPI.

I appreciate these checks were probably easier to implement, but I would have rather seen the way climb/hide work improved before taking away the "features" that made it a little more believable (now we aren't going to see people perching 'at the edge" of cliffs and shooting down, because there's just no coded way to do so, even though it's a perfectly viable tactic in real life... because if you fail your check you'll topple forward a'la comedy central and fall down the cliff, which is just goofy as all get-out).

The cliff-top problem could probably be solved by making all "edge of cliff" rooms able to be walked in/out of, with the climb happening on the up/down.

That doesn't solve the problem for the pits, though.

[AdamBlue]

>Look
You are currently climbing in a fall room.
>inv
You have a bow, a quiver, and a rope.
>look down
Three rooms below, you see a jerk.
>use rope
You fail to find a secure place to tie yourself down.
>use rope
You find a place to secure you.
>up
You must first untie yourself to move in that direction.
>north
You must first untie yourself to move in that direction.
>down
You slowly lower yourself down the cliff using the rope.
>look down
The jerk is two rooms away.
>hold bow
>get arrow quiver
>wield arrow
>shoot jerk down
>look down
The jerk is dead.
>up
Not with full hands.
>remove bow
>up
You slowly climb up the rope...
>use rope
You unlash the rope, and resume climbing.
>up
You carefully climb up.

[Fujikoma]

What? No going down there for the fat loot?

Also, do ropes really work like that IG? Here I've been doing it wrong all along.

[Nyr]

I'm pretty sure this was only meant to address some situations where the code wasn't working as intended; there were some bugs here.  Had this gone in a couple weeks ago, it would have pre-empted a granted resurrection request.

Expanding use-cases/functionality/creating new code for climb has not really been in discussion; there is still at least one other bug that Nessalin and I were just discussing.

[Nyr]

Also, do ropes really work like that IG? Here I've been doing it wrong all along.

They don't--the idea suggested by AdamBlue would be pretty neat, though a long ways off in terms of what the code is right now!

[Fujikoma]

Also, do ropes really work like that IG? Here I've been doing it wrong all along.

They don't--the idea suggested by AdamBlue would be pretty neat, though a long ways off in terms of what the code is right now!

Ah well, it'd be pretty neat.

[James de Monet]

What, no more "Somone's eyes roll back in their head as they collapse to the ground," or whatever the message was?  Heh.  Good stuff.  That was hard to RP around.


http://youtu.be/Xo21CkoxEmA

[Inks]

Good changes overall but why couldn't someone use a loaded crossbow or throw something down while climbing?

[Delirium]

Good changes overall but why couldn't someone use a loaded crossbow or throw something down while climbing?

You get a climb check to see if you succeed in doing so without falling.

No idea how hard/easy that climb check is, though.

I still wish there was a way to use the advantage of terrain (shooting down at people from cliffs, though they could shoot up at you w/ a negative as well).. stuff like that.

[Majikal]

Good changes overall but why couldn't someone use a loaded crossbow or throw something down while climbing?

You get a climb check to see if you succeed in doing so without falling.

No idea how hard/easy that climb check is, though.

I still wish there was a way to use the advantage of terrain (shooting down at people from cliffs, though they could shoot up at you w/ a negative as well).. stuff like that.

Who says there's not a bonus for shooting down and a penalty for shooting up?

But hells yeah on these changes.

[Inks]

Oh it is a climb check. THIS IS AWESOME THEN.

[Delirium]

If there is, great, I didn't see mention of it.

I'm just grouchy because I've had some really cool scenes where people roleplayed being on the edge of a cliff or pit and shooting down, and in those kinds of situations you really wouldn't just slip and fall unless it was some sort of freak accident or you were dumb enough to lean over too far.

So I feel limited by the code instead of like it enables me to roleplay stuff.

So I'm shaking my cane.

[Delirium]

I'm going to refer you to the "life is dangerous, suck it up noob" part of the docs and retreat to my jaded old vet cave.

This is the takeaway I really want people to be focusing on, this is what gets me grumpy:

"I feel limited by the code instead of like it enables me to roleplay stuff."

[Synthesis]

"I feel limited by the code instead of like it enables me to roleplay stuff."

I dunno.

"Tying off" into some primitive rope system without things like titanium/steel carabiners, pulleys, scarabs, figure-8s, MPDs, anchor bolts, etc. etc., in order to then flip around and shoot downward at something seems pretty far-fetched.

Climbing with ropes is really fucking complicated and pretty dangerous even with modern equipment.  I think the code allows us to get away with a whole lot more than we really ought to be getting away with, already, if you want my honest opinion about it.

[Delirium]

The tying off suggestion was frankly silly and I'm not the one that posted that.

I just wanna be able to look over the edge of cliffs or down into pits, and throw things or shoot things in both directions. You should be able to do that without risking life and limb.

I don't think that's unrealistic or too much to ask.

>look up
[near]
Nothing
[far]
A desert elf is crouched here.

>shoot elf up

>look down
[near]
A rantarri prowls around in a pit here!

>throw knife rantarri down
You steady yourself and take aim...

>A rantarri tries to climb, but slips.


Edit: basically, what frustrates me is that mundanes already have a lot of limitations that they shouldn't have due to code limitations.

Mages have so much flexibility as to what they can accomplish, and mundanes can't even peek over the edge of a pit / cliff without the very real risk of taking a swandive to the ground below. And now they can't even do anything if they do mange to get to the edge of that pit / cliff, without repeatedly risking another swandive.

It removes a very realistic strategic option from the mundane skillset and places it firmly in the hands of certain mages.

[AdamBlue]

How is it silly?
I'm literally insisting abseiling, what's wrong with abseiling?
Of course, it would be a bit more complicated then tying a rope to a tree and tying a rope around your waist, but it's by no means something silly.

[Delirium]

Somebody better tell that guy he needs to make a climb check before he can get close enough to see how far the drop really is!

[Delirium]

You see, the guy on top has a frowny face because he's totally falling because he failed his climb check.

[BadSkeelz]

Climbing was already lame and falls already fatal enough that cliffs have a 2 room "Nope" limit around them in my mind, anyway.

[Delirium]

Climbing was already lame and falls already fatal enough that cliffs have a 2 room "Nope" limit around them in my mind, anyway.

That's what I want to see fixed. Instead we get "feature" fixes that make it even harder to work around that part of the code.

I appreciate the effort, I do. But I really want to point out that sometimes features are okay, because the entire way we handle climb needs to be revisited first.

At the least, the tops of cliffs should be non-climb rooms because no one is stupid enough to fall over a ledge. That doesn't even require a code change.

[seidhr]

At the least, the tops of cliffs should be non-climb rooms because no one is stupid enough to fall over a ledge. That doesn't even require a code change.

Actually, that would require a code change, because you could simply go "down" and you've now traversed down the cliff without having a climb check, the way the code works currently - assuming it's a one room drop.  And for longer drops you're now facing N-1 climb checks.

[Fujikoma]

As far as that guy peering over the ledge? I have nightmares about things like that, starting from some five to seven feet up, depending on the terrain below. I, myself, would fail the shit out of that "peek over the edge" check, especially if a sudden, soft breeze tickled the back of my neck. But that's just me, I can't speak for everyone.

[Inks]

I liked what Delirium said. You shoot be able to at least throw and shoot 1 handed crossbows without climb checks.

[Fujikoma]

Yeah, a lot of people stick to bows, I guess because they don't percieve a coded or situational advantage from crossbows, but I could be way off. Such a buff to crossbows may make them a little more popular, resulting in more requests for mastercrafts and the like.

Should be a bayonetted crossbow... I mean um, time to get to work!

[Ath]

I liked what Delirium said. You shoot be able to at least throw and shoot 1 handed crossbows without climb checks.

Have you ever held onto a hand hold and throwing something?  You have to realize that a lot of force goes into throwing a weapon.  The motion of that force you to have an extremely good hold onto the hand hold you have.  Go outside, grab a stick, find a tree, and throw it at the tree as hard as you can.  Now realize your body motion in throwing that stick, now think on that.  Do you think it would take a climb check to keep a hold of the wall you're holding onto?

Now looks at a crossbow.  Have you shot one before?  Did you know that a crossbow does have a kick and most crossbows have to be braced on your shoulder with two hands?  Well, that doesn't have to work with hand crossbows.  Still, trying to aim something while holding onto something that does have a kick, not as much as a regular crossbow, but there is still a kick.  Take into the fact that you're likely looking at a combat situation, that would even make it more difficult.

I personally don't see something like a climb check being unreasonable for those situations.  More reason for someone that has climb as a good rank being good at doing difficult things with it.

Now onto the topic of edges of a cliff...

This is a problem with the code to be honest.  Rooms only have 6 directions you can move, 7/8 if you could count entering and exiting buildings.  The issue with creating the edge of a cliff is technically in most cases the transition between two rooms is the cliff.  I would have to go into all the details of code and the way rooms work.  There is a way to do it, but it would require adding a room to every single edge in the game and then you'd have the problem of making that fit properly and allow for symmetry of the rooms, or you would make every room that is a ledge not automatically make someone fall... but then that would eliminate the risk of falling in the first place from rooms that are meant to have that risk.  All in all it is a great idea, but sad that we can't do it due to the limitations of the game.  All that work though just so you can shoot off a cliff at someone.  Oh, there are rooms in the game though that allow you to look down at another room, but these are rooms made just for the purposes of shooting at something below.  The room has to be designed to do it and then there are limitations.

Sorry, I rambled a bit here, but there is a lot of thought that goes into all of this.  It's just nice to see code changes happening that are making the game better in the long run.

[Inks]

Yah I wasn't denying I like the change. I was just arguing I want to be bobba fett with my hand crossbow but now I have to pick ranger due to assassin's low climb cap to avoid being charlie chaplin.

It's good to see practical and instantly usable code changes more than once every (?) though. I am sure all these things were bugged and idea'd countless times before the GDB posts saved the day. It seems like complaining about bugs on the GDB is more effective now than the idea or bug tool. Awesome work though as scanning for someone you just sapped was sad and very awkward when with other pcs.

I think this and the Drov beetle change speeds set a very positive precedent that I hope continues.

[Jave]

It might be possible to make the "Over the Edge" rooms not ask for a climb check.

In this way someone would be able to take and arrow and shoot down at a climber from the top, or up at a climber from the bottom in equal measure. That would require a builder going through and changing all the top climbing rooms in the game though, which would be a daunting task.

[Majikal]

It might be possible to make the "Over the Edge" rooms not ask for a climb check.

In this way someone would be able to take and arrow and shoot down at a climber from the top, or up at a climber from the bottom in equal measure. That would require a builder going through and changing all the top climbing rooms in the game though, which would be a daunting task.

Then you end up with the 3 room dangerous falls turning into a 2 room fall, 2 room falls turning into a 1 room shrug off etc etc. Would definitely take lots of remapping to keep the appropriate danger of the cliff/chasm/asssinkhole to make it work. A big task but honestly I think it might be worth it for the long haul. I spaz out pretty hard when I'm doing anything on a dangerous ledge to the point I'm scared to use the look command and only use my look macros to gaze around.

But these other changes to the climb code definitely kick ass. Experts get to keep being experts. Other folks have the chance to look expert, at least until they fall on their face.

[valeria]

I'm not really sure where the idea that you can't stand on the edge of a cliff and shoot down comes from?  If you're skilled enough at 'climb' (ie, not falling over cliffs) to feel comfortable walking into that cliff room in the first place, you're probably at minimal risk of falling while getting a couple of shots off.  As I read it, the code makes you pass a check when you do it, it doesn't translate into an automatic failure.  And if you're stepping up to the edge of the cliff and doing complicated hand-eye-foot coordination things with your hands, I don't see that it's unrealistic that you could risk a fall. 

Where I'd be curious is whether it gives you the (assumed on my part) climb bonus subtractions of being one handed or having both hands full.  That is, whether the check comes while you have the arrow in your hand, or whether it comes after the arrow is released.  If it counts you has having both hands full, I think that would be a little dorky, since I don't think shooting off a cliff should be the same difficulty as climbing it without hands.    That's perhaps just me.

[Nyr]

To clarify, this:

-Throwing now checks to see if your character should fall.
-Shooting now checks to see if your character should fall.

means this:

-Throwing in/from a room you are climbing in means that you will fall.
-Shooting in/from a room you are climbing in means that you will fall.

Before, the game wasn't running any checks at all--now it is, albeit a harsh check.

We have some more bugs with falling/climbing to iron out before expanding functionality.

[Eurynomos]

It might be possible to make the "Over the Edge" rooms not ask for a climb check.

In this way someone would be able to take and arrow and shoot down at a climber from the top, or up at a climber from the bottom in equal measure. That would require a builder going through and changing all the top climbing rooms in the game though, which would be a daunting task.

It also would, as Seidhr previously mentioned, not allow one to climb/fall. The 'top room' needs to be set to falling in order for climb checks to work properly. The only work around would be adding an additional room to every 'fall check' room in the game, which is an even more daunting task.

[Delirium]

The only solutions I can think of are an approach style code, where you would stand at the edge of your area and be able to look into the other area, including up/down and directionals, with a penalty to scan results. Or leave the "features" of climb untouched so that we have something we can work around until a real fix is put in place, but it's too late for that.

[Alesan]

The only solutions I can think of are an approach style code, where you would stand at the edge of your area and be able to look into the other area, including up/down and directionals, with a penalty to scan results. Or leave the "features" of climb untouched so that we have something we can work around until a real fix is put in place, but it's too late for that.

A way to look in the direction of the fall and see how big of a fall it is wouldn't be too much to ask, right? It'd be a major improvement just to be able to see from a glance that not every sudden drop is a bottomless pit. Nevermind everything else mentioned in this thread.

>look north
You see a long drop ahead of you.
>look east
You see a short drop ahead of you.
>look south
You cannot see the bottom from here.

[The Archbishop]

Now is this really a climb check? Or just an automatic fall? Seems like an auto fall to me, has anyone else tested this to different resullts?

[Jave]

As Nyr stated, you will fall. Every time. Don't try to throw things or shoot a bow and arrow while in a climb check room.

[Mordiggian]

This is an ongoing code development subject and there may be changes in the pipeline to take into account for things like climbing gear and climbing tools that might allow you to do things like shoot while dangling off a cliff.

[Lizzie]

I'm really not seeing too much problem here. I mean, how many times have you had a PC in game and have him think "gee, I think I'll climb a huge cliff and start shooting this guy down below?"

I just don't think it happens with enough frequency for anyone to really care about it all that much. Surely your target will be somewhere else, at some point in the next 48 hours, where you might have the same opportunity to shoot at him from a different angle?

[Fujikoma]

It happens often enough in a certain unspecified location. Whether this is good or bad is up for debate. I find death from fleeing up a climb far more annoying than a dagger tossed from above.

[Dar]

Would it be possible to somehow alleviate the crit fail of climbing? As it is, you could climb 1 room up and then crit fail, which would almost knock you unconscious and then a single room drop will completely KO you.

Technically speaking crit fail is a crit fail and that's the danger of climbing. But in reality, it feels so unrealistic and far too harsh and sudden. Of all the mundane skill crit fails, the climb check is probably the harshest one.

[Armaddict]

I would really rather it be just a straight up climb check than a 'You WILL fall.'

That's...the opposite extreme of the same spectrum, and trading extremes bad.

[Armaddict]

Have you ever held onto a hand hold and throwing something?  You have to realize that a lot of force goes into throwing a weapon.  The motion of that force you to have an extremely good hold onto the hand hold you have.  Go outside, grab a stick, find a tree, and throw it at the tree as hard as you can.  Now realize your body motion in throwing that stick, now think on that.  Do you think it would take a climb check to keep a hold of the wall you're holding onto?

Your body has other ways of making force.  You're talking about a pitcher's throw, which is designed to maximize the physics of the thing to hurl a baseball, essentially a small rock, with enough force to actually kill a man.  Particularly from above, that same amount of force is able to be reached with a heavier weapon or a tapered edge, i.e. a throwing knife or throwing bolo.  If you're a skilled climber, then yes, you will be able to throw it, particularly above and below on the same side of the body as the throwing arm.  It's the opposite side of the body where your body mechanics will actually be in the way.  Not impossible, but difficult.  Throwing upwards means working against gravity, which is 10 m/s^2.  Throwing downwards will actually naturally have much more force with much less effort, again, provided you have the degree of motion of one arm to actually project it in their direction.

If anything at all...throwing while climbing incurs accuracy penalties more than an automatic 'You're screwed for even trying it'.  You do not need to twist and contort your body to the point that your grips will fail, particularly if you know what you're doing, which is usually the case of a character who is throwing while clutching to a wall or cliff.

[Jihelu]

Someone with master throw could probably hang onto a wall with one hand and "Look at the flick of da wrist" hard enough to do as much damage as someone with apprentice/Journeyman throw.

[Kyviantre]

One would imagine it is less throwing a rock at someone's head who is standing at the bottom of the cliff, and more dropping the rock and letting gravity do most of the work.  Very little force required as that rock is going to be speeding up on the way down!

[AdamBlue]

One would imagine it is less throwing a rock at someone's head who is standing at the bottom of the cliff, and more dropping the rock and letting gravity do most of the work.  Very little force required as that rock is going to be speeding up on the way down!

Height should provide bonuses to shooting, in fact.

A male voice shouts from above, "IT'S OVER AMOS, I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!"

You shout, "YOU UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE-"

An arrow flies in and strikes you in the head.

Welcome to Armageddon!

[Saellyn]

One would imagine it is less throwing a rock at someone's head who is standing at the bottom of the cliff, and more dropping the rock and letting gravity do most of the work.  Very little force required as that rock is going to be speeding up on the way down!

Height should provide bonuses to shooting, in fact.

A male voice shouts from above, "IT'S OVER AMOS, I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!"

You shout, "YOU UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE-"

An arrow flies in and strikes you in the head.

Welcome to Armageddon!

A male voice shouts from above, "IT'S OVER ANAMOS! I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!"

You shout, "You underestimate my power!"

A male voice shouts from above, "Don't try it!"

You attempt to climb, but slip.