What you like about clans

[Harmless]

This is a long poll, but above are opposing statements about clans. You have a total of 7 votes; please answer ONE of the responses that most fits for each pair of questions.

I started this in order to collect feedback from everyone about how they enjoy clanned life in PCs. We discuss a lot of the above points and at times people vehemently disagree on them: for example, being allowed to leave the gates or not.

Maybe the information this poll gathers will be useful for staff and players in shaping the gameworld further into what we'd rather see.

I encourage you guys to suggest question pairs to be added to the poll. The above are what came to my mind readily among the current active debates about clans on the GDB. Also feel free to ask for modifications/clarifications to a statement, if you wanted to click it but didn't completely agree with it.

Edited:
Dman: thanks for the edit, I agree with that. My bias was in both of the responses and they ended up being identical, oops. If anyone else would like a question changed/reworded just ask.

Unfortunately, I may not be able to add more questions AND increase the # of responses. Oh well, we can start with this.

[Desertman]

You have no alternative for the promotion question. It is stating the same opinion twice.

How about a: I enjoyed how I had to work really hard for my promotion, even if I never got one, which made it feel like more of an achievement.

[RogueGunslinger]

This thread is confusing because there don't seem to be many options to pick if you like clans. It's also hard to answer with some of these because they don't touch on the reasons why I pick certain clans. For most it's totally different reasons.

[Harmless]

This thread is confusing because there don't seem to be many options to pick if you like clans. It's also hard to answer with some of these because they don't touch on the reasons why I pick certain clans. For most it's totally different reasons.

Why do you pick those clans? What do you like about them? Share and I'll throw it up there, even if the total # of responses won't allow people to vote for everything.

[flurry]

Is this supposed to be specifically about military clans? That's what it says in the poll, but then the thread title and the first post made me wonder if it was supposed to be more general than that.

[nauta]

A lot of the way you put the opposition suggests a bias for one or the other.  A simple solution would be to make the opposite options exactly the same.  For instance:

--Being allowed to quit from the clan without being hunted down.
----NOT being allowed to quit, i.e. being hunted down for quitting ("Lifesworn")

--- I like the fact that lifesworn can't quit (without being hunted down)
--- I dislike the fact that ...

--Being allowed to leave the gates and hunt/gather/make relationships outside the city.
----Being forced to stay inside city gates and having more interaction.

--- I like not being allowed to leave the gates during an initial period.
--- I dislike not being allowed to ...

--A more restrictive first IC year as a "recruit" enhanced my experience.
----Being able to start with full independence and rights is my preference.

--- I like the restrictive recruit period.
--- I dislike the restrictive recruit period.

--I enjoyed how I had to work really hard for my promotion, even if I never got one, which made it feel like more of an achievement.
----I disliked how I couldn't get a promotion.

--- I like promotions, even if they are hard to obtain.
--- I dislike promotions(?)

This one seems odd, since non-clanned people can't get promotions at all.  Perhaps you meant:

--- I think promotions should be easier to obtain.
--- I think promotions should be harder to obtain.

[qupte]
--I enjoyed the events/missions/RPTs I participated in and looked forward to them.
----I did not find RPTs/missions enjoyable and didn't care if I missed them.
[/quote]

This is fine, although why not the same verbiage?

--I enjoyed being led by another PC and having my PC's life in their hands.
----I disliked most of the PCs leading mine and thought they lessened my enjoyment.

Again, just: I enjoyed/disliked... then have the same verbiage.

--I think that the constancy of the Houses is important for the game world.
----I wish that houses would evolve more, be destroyed and replaced, or make real impacts on the world.

--- I think that Houses should be constant and stable.
--- I do not think that Houses should be constant and stable.

(Here you imply that by being constant and stable, houses can't make "real impacts on the world".)

[lostinspace]

1. NOT being allowed to quit, i.e. being hunted down for quitting ("Lifesworn")
2. Being allowed to leave the gates and hunt/gather/make relationships outside the city.
3. A more restrictive first IC year as a "recruit" enhanced my experience.
4. I enjoyed being promoted and given greater degrees of power.
5. I enjoyed the events/missions/RPTs I participated in and looked forward to them.
6. I disliked most of the PCs leading mine and thought they lessened my enjoyment.
7. I wish that houses would evolve more, be destroyed and replaced, or make real impacts on the world.

The only one I had trouble deciding on was 6, I really like leading people around, but have no opinion about being led, so I picked dislike, because I prefer to lead, not follow.

[Armaddict]

My preferences on these things vary from clan to clan.

The only truly solidifying thing in whether or not I enjoy a clan is the other players in it, and whether their vision aligns with my own.

[Synthesis]

according to poll results: yes

[Malken]

What you like about clans

- nothing

[Lizzie]

Like Nauta, I have a problem with the wording and obvious bias of the whole poll. It sounds like you're really pushing an agenda with the choices here.

--Being allowed to quit from the clan without being hunted down.
(implies that the only possible options are: quit and be hunted down, or not quit and not be hunted down. There are usually other options, including doing juuuuust enough of "not enough" to get fired, and not be hunted down. In addition, most clans have a recruitment period where you don't get hunted down at all if you want to quit during that period - and others require that you put in a game-year, and after that - you can quit, without being hunted down.

----NOT being allowed to quit, i.e. being hunted down for quitting ("Lifesworn")
(see above)

--Being allowed to leave the gates and hunt/gather/make relationships outside the city.
----Being forced to stay inside city gates and having more interaction.
"more interaction" than what? It sounds like you're implying that being forced to stay in the gates means you get more interaction, than when you're not forced to stay in the gates. I have never found this to be true, ever. So the choices make no sense at all.

--A more restrictive first IC year as a "recruit" enhanced my experience.
----Being able to start with full independence and rights is my preference.
Again - you're not including the possibility that a clanned member has *some* restrictions, and *some* choices of independence. Especially if you're entering a clan from another clan, and have already proven yourself to be trustworthy and able to survive on your own - many clans will allow you more movement than if you showed up fresh out of chargen.

--I enjoyed how I had to work really hard for my promotion, even if I never got one, which made it feel like more of an achievement.
----I disliked how I couldn't get a promotion.
How about the option where you have to earn your promotion, but it's not overbearingly difficult. There's a lot of that in clans. You get that sense of achievement, PLUS you don't have to feel like there was no way you'd ever earn it.

--I enjoyed the events/missions/RPTs I participated in and looked forward to them.
----I did not find RPTs/missions enjoyable and didn't care if I missed them.
How about if you enjoyed some, didn't enjoy others?

--I enjoyed being led by another PC and having my PC's life in their hands.
----I disliked most of the PCs leading mine and thought they lessened my enjoyment.

Being led by another PC doesn't mean your PCs life is in their hands. It means you have chosen to let someone else take charge. At any point, you can back out. There are both IC and OOC ways to do it, each of which has potential consequences. Personally, I prefer someone else take charge on the plotline itself, but I prefer doing the "physical coded" leading, as in - being the leader of a group moving from point A to point B.

--I think that the constancy of the Houses is important for the game world.
----I wish that houses would evolve more, be destroyed and replaced, or make real impacts on the world.

I think that constancy of houses IS important to the world. I *ALSO* think houses can evolve more, be destroyed and replaced, and make more real impacts on the world. I would not like to see Kadius destroyed and replaced by another house that only lasts until its leader is githed. Thankfully, it isn't an option. On the other hand, I'd like to see Kadius make more of an impact on the world. As you can see - the two options are not mutually exclusive.

I don't know what agenda you're pushing, but my answer to the entire poll is "none of the above."

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I like the restrictedness of recruit years and the constancy of the merchant/noble houses. They do enough already to make you shake in your boots and wonder seriously sometimes about your continued employment, even if you're not doing anything wrong yet. If they began to really become bigger/smaller/created/destroyed, it would mean a lot of work for the staff with less payout than what they are doing now, since such things would make an impact initially, but would become the status quo. The same number of players in more/fewer clans with higher turnover rates because they're being constantly created and destroyed, and staff have to make and update pages for these houses on the website constantly.... noncombat capable crafters would be especially vulnerable to sudden unemployment that they did nothing to inspire, and House Hated-Dead-House-Like-Hell might not want them. Among other things.

The being able to quit is huge with me too, even if I plan to stay forever, which I have in the past. It makes no sense outside the OOC perspective but its something that I know some players need and I'm one of them.

[Alesan]

Yeah, I don't know. I was interested in putting in an opinion here, but I read through the options and none of them touched on any of the feelings I have about clans.

To be honest, I think clans are mostly okay. It's the people in them that make or break them. And those change a lot.

[musashi]

I couldn't answer most of the questions on this poll, because the answers depend on what kind of character I'm playing at the moment.

I would however, like to see the clans evolve more and be more malleable to player efforts. More dynamic clans was one of the things I was looking forward to in Armageddon Reborn the most.

[Harmless]

made edits according to nauta's suggestions, thanks.

[Majikal]

--I like the fact that lifesworn can't quit (without being hunted down)
Lifesworn is a pretty prestigious position, not just everyone can get the option to do this. Once they do, it comes with some weight to back it up. Easy choice for a pc, not so easy for a player. I'm in support of lifesworn roles though I do beleive they've adjusted them from FOREVER to A REALLY LONG TIME in most cases.

--I like not being allowed to leave the gates during an initial period.
Clans come with rules, they also come with tons of rewards. Be that gear/survivability/powerful friends/a team etc. I've always taken the restriction as a way of testing the responsibility/commitment of the pc. If sneaking out to hunt that scrab or forage salt outweighs your commitment to the clan/job then clearly you're not going to be reliable in other aspects. Also, it's a good safe way to help 'noobs' play safely and realistically.

--I like the restrictive recruit period.
See above.

--I think promotions should be hard to obtain.
I've had a pc get fast-tracked out of recruit to hunter, from hunter to First Hunter. Oocly, I was easily the best choice and from a gameplay perspective it was good for the underlings in the clan. Icly, it robbed my sense of accomplishment, even though my pc obviously didn't agree with my ooc feelings.

--I enjoyed the events/missions/RPTs I participated in and looked forward to them.
Biggest game changing things I've been a part of were because I was clanned or grouped. Be they spamfilled murder missions, or temple of doom cavern crawls with Rathustra and Nergal^TM. You can play 20 indies and never experience a single 'out of the norm' adventure. Play in a clan and generally you get scooped up and dumped into something. I enjoy those moments.

--I enjoyed being led by another PC and having my PC's life in their hands.
While I tend to to be the leader more often than I'm led, being a follower has it's perks too. A bad First Hunter, a bad Sergeant, a bad Corporal etc might be leading you poorly into the known or right into a sinkhole with all the clan leadership on their heels #toosoon but these tend to be things you can address icly, and in quite the entertaining fashion I might add. What's arm without a lil MCB. I remember being in ED back when a new sarge came onboard, I think we flipped on him in under a RL week and solved our little problem.

--I think that Houses should be constant and stable.
Stable is always good. Maybe I'm not understanding this one?

[Beethoven]

I chose an option and then the wording changed to something I no longer agree with. While I like the dichotomy a lot better and think it covers more bases, now I actually VERY MUCH disagree with what I have apparently chosen.

[Malken]

I chose an option and then the wording changed to something I no longer agree with. While I like the dichotomy a lot better and think it covers more bases, now I actually VERY MUCH disagree with what I have apparently chosen.

More than half of the Americans who voted for Obama feels your pain.

[bcw81]

I chose an option and then the wording changed to something I no longer agree with. While I like the dichotomy a lot better and think it covers more bases, now I actually VERY MUCH disagree with what I have apparently chosen.

Agreed

[Refugee]

I answered the questions but I didn't find it too applicable to my feelings about clans.

I seem to have bad luck with clans.  I join up and immediately the leadership disappears.  Or the clan gets shut down.  I'm getting a complex.

I really like playing the team thing. I really like playing the loyalty thing.  My favorite role is the trusted sidekick.  I want clans to work.

The reality though, is that I ended up banging on sparring dummies alone... day after day.  Or patrolling through streets alone, day after day.  Sitting around the barracks idling while I play something in another window.  Schedules suck for combat clans without active leadership.

I don't play a game like Arm to play solo.  I abhor solo RP.  It's boring and I feel pretty uncomfortable with it, to be honest.  A little silly.  I know people who are fantastic solo RPers and they enjoy it very much.  I'm just not one of them.  I wish I was but I'm not.

I play Arm for the interaction.  I play for the emotional highs and lows and the terror and the camaraderie.  The chance to rub elbows with heroes, to take down villains, to mourn great creations of other players.  It's so much more real than on some graphic game because we describe it all.  It goes through your brain because you read and you have to phrase a response.  It becomes part of your life experience.

Staff handled the situation perfectly for me when it arose this last time.  I would like to tell you all about it but I don't think I should.  Still, they did great, and I'm grateful.

I understand that clans don't want to waste training time and materials losing recruits who get bored and go wandering off to become scrab food.  I don't want that either.  But something needs to be done about the combat clan without an active leader.  Leader players have RL things that happen where they can't play...so some kind of interrupt needs to be built into the follow-schedule-or-else function, to give lower ranking clannies a way not to get bored out of their skulls because they're trapped.  Unless you want to play a rule-breaking sort, I suppose! 

[Barsook]

I seem to have bad luck with clans.  I join up and immediately the leadership disappears.  Or the clan gets shut down.  I'm getting a complex. 

You are not alone.

[ibusoe]

This thread is confusing because there don't seem to be many options to pick if you like clans. It's also hard to answer with some of these because they don't touch on the reasons why I pick certain clans. For most it's totally different reasons.

It's not that confusing.  Maybe read it twice?  Harmless is right to attempt to collect a set of information about whatever it is she's working on.  This isn't the be-all, end-all.

[In Dreams]

I've been in one combat clan since I've played Armageddon, and it bored me very very quickly.

Any clan with a stringent schedule that so restricts my PC's ability to interact outside of the clan will not have me in it for very long, no matter how well everything else within the clan is going.

[BadSkeelz]

A schedule-clan with interesting PCs in it is far less onerous than a schedule-clan with boring or no other PCs in it. I like clans for the interaction and characterization they can provide. If the company's not good or the character of the clan ("why are we here?") is dull, then I'm unlikely to stick with the clan. Discipline and schedules can certainly be a part of that characterization, but if they're just existing for their own sake they get tiring.

I like the strict schedules more in the beginning of my clan careers, because it's an easy way to get clan-mates to play with and get to know each other. As my clan PCs age I like to get to know more people outside of the clan, because I really enjoy the interactions and stories that can develop when PCs of differing clans and experiences interact.

[RogueGunslinger]

This thread is confusing because there don't seem to be many options to pick if you like clans. It's also hard to answer with some of these because they don't touch on the reasons why I pick certain clans. For most it's totally different reasons.

It's not that confusing.  Maybe read it twice?  Harmless is right to attempt to collect a set of information about whatever it is she's working on.  This isn't the be-all, end-all.

First of all the thread original post has been modified multiple times since I made that post, so maybe I should read it three or four times. Secondly the title of the thread is "What you like about clans." So that's why I found it confusing that there were so few (like maybe 1) options that was positive towards being in clans.

Collecting data is great. Collecting less biased and more clear data is even better. I never said anything about what the OP should be doing so I don't know why you felt the need to go off like I was shooting down the idea in its entirety. I like talking about clans and collecting opinions on them. I just didn't like the poll for multiple reasons, and I'm clearly not the only one..

[Alesan]

The reality though, is that I ended up banging on sparring dummies alone... day after day.  Or patrolling through streets alone, day after day.  Sitting around the barracks idling while I play something in another window.  Schedules suck for combat clans without active leadership.

I don't play a game like Arm to play solo.  I abhor solo RP.  It's boring and I feel pretty uncomfortable with it, to be honest.  A little silly.  I know people who are fantastic solo RPers and they enjoy it very much.  I'm just not one of them.  I wish I was but I'm not.

I play Arm for the interaction.  I play for the emotional highs and lows and the terror and the camaraderie.  The chance to rub elbows with heroes, to take down villains, to mourn great creations of other players.  It's so much more real than on some graphic game because we describe it all.  It goes through your brain because you read and you have to phrase a response.  It becomes part of your life experience.

...

I understand that clans don't want to waste training time and materials losing recruits who get bored and go wandering off to become scrab food.  I don't want that either.  But something needs to be done about the combat clan without an active leader.  Leader players have RL things that happen where they can't play...so some kind of interrupt needs to be built into the follow-schedule-or-else function, to give lower ranking clannies a way not to get bored out of their skulls because they're trapped.  Unless you want to play a rule-breaking sort, I suppose!  

I agree with all of this.

And there needs to be some balance between letting players of leader PCs handle their RL shit while also not letting them just sit on a leadership position for sometimes weeks on end without doing anything of note.

[Harmless]

This thread is confusing because there don't seem to be many options to pick if you like clans. It's also hard to answer with some of these because they don't touch on the reasons why I pick certain clans. For most it's totally different reasons.

It's not that confusing.  Maybe read it twice?  Harmless is right to attempt to collect a set of information about whatever it is she's working on.  This isn't the be-all, end-all.

First of all the thread original post has been modified multiple times since I made that post, so maybe I should read it three or four times. Secondly the title of the thread is "What you like about clans." So that's why I found it confusing that there were so few (like maybe 1) options that was positive towards being in clans.

Collecting data is great. Collecting less biased and more clear data is even better. I never said anything about what the OP should be doing so I don't know why you felt the need to go off like I was shooting down the idea in its entirety. I like talking about clans and collecting opinions on them. I just didn't like the poll for multiple reasons, and I'm clearly not the only one..

In my OP I welcomed people's suggestions for how to make the poll better. Nauta made suggestions (and dman made one), and I took them. I admit I have biases, but it's not like I have some super sekrit agenda or something. I just wanted to see where people stood on these, and it's quite interesting to see what clans do right and what people are divided on.

[Molten Heart]

I didn't answer the question: "Do you enjoy/dislike being led by another PC and having my PC's life in their hands" because it totally depends on the PC leader. Sometimes those leaders are complete morons and I'm stuck because they're the only PC leader in that specific clan and I if I want to be in that clan I have to somehow deal with it even if I don't like it. In these cases I simply don't join that clan because I have no confidence in the leader. Sometimes a clan PC leader is awesome and I'd follow them anywhere and do anything they asked. It's completely dependent on the capabilities of the PC leader in question.

When it comes to choosing a clan, who the clan leader is comes in just under how ICly appropriate it'd be to work for that clan.

[Old Kank]

I voted that I like the stability of clans.  I wouldn't mind seeing shifting and changing in the clans, but I voted that way because I wouldn't want the fate of clans to rest in the hands of the players.

I voted that I don't like new recruit restrictions, and I don't like RPTs/missions.  I've been really struggling to play arm for a while now, and a big part of that is the way new recruits are treated.  Recruits, and even non-leaders (to a lesser degree) just seem to be treated as a liability in terms of plot.  Most of the military missions/RPTs my characters have gone on in the past 2-3 RL years have amounted to this:  "Your job is to kill this monster and/or guard this person.  I'm not going to tell you why.  Don't ask questions, just kill and/or guard."  I feel like I have to blindly donate 500+ hours to repetitive tedium before being given even a glimpse at the clan's story du jour.  Or I could just go read a stack of books, watch an entire TV series or three, or play a couple rounds of Civ V.