Some Recent Thoughts Of Mine About Mages

[musashi]

Yeah, people tend to play elementalists as D&D Sorcerers ... and Sorcerers as D&D Wizards. I think it fits well with the setting and I've always played them like that.

Practicing combat spells on other mages in a training environment the way that warriors can spar with weapons seems possible to me in some cases, depending on the kind of elementalists involved. I could envision it happening in some of the temples of the gemmed quarter.

[Feco]

I know when I played a mage last I could get to the point I could do some very serious damage in less than 10 days played so I didn't care if I lost the PC doing that serious damage. Why would I? I can just roll up another and have them back to the same point in 10 days played or less which is really nothing at all. They are throwaway characters with huge power able to make throwaway decisions for the lulz.  

I've always felt we've had twisted views of a "long time" in Arm.  10 days played is 240 hours.  That's a long fucking time.  

[Delirium]

^ that. Once you have adult lives and jobs and college (that you actually care about getting good grades in) the timesink of Arm becomes a Real Problem.

[Dresan]

I know when I played a mage last I could get to the point I could do some very serious damage in less than 10 days played so I didn't care if I lost the PC doing that serious damage. Why would I? I can just roll up another and have them back to the same point in 10 days played or less which is really nothing at all. They are throwaway characters with huge power able to make throwaway decisions for the lulz.  

I've always felt we've had twisted views of a "long time" in Arm.  10 days played is 240 hours.  That's a long fucking time.  

A can't agree with this sentiment more. When you die, all the associations of your character are gone. Their friends, lovers, enemies. That hurts. However since alot of skills in arm are basically crap before the advanced/master mark, really does take a long time for your to build up the character to a point where they are decent at doing interesting stuff.

As I said, I love mundanes but I rather not see mages go down the path of mundanes cool or having to begin to find ways to twink their skills. I think they are fine.  Instead I want to continue to see the mundane experience be improved from what they can accomplish, to what they can experience. Not to say there haven't been steps taken towards this goal, for example, allowing players to create their own clans. Also,for the record I think combat is fine in this regard, you can see the difference between a 1 day old character, a 5 day old character, a 10 day old character. Its the other skills I wouldn't mind seeing improving a bit faster or perhaps just see wisdom buffed a bit more. With work and other responsibilities, its takes months to begin doing cool things with my character and then it dies to something silly.

[musashi]

Also,for the record I think combat is fine in this regard, you can see the difference between a 1 day old character, a 5 day old character, a 10 day old character. Its the other skills I wouldn't mind seeing improving a bit faster or perhaps just see wisdom buffed a bit more. With work and other responsibilities, its takes months to begin doing cool things with my character and then it dies to something silly.

Really? I'm very surprised by this. In my experience "the other skills" (read: not weapon skills) improve as quickly as spells do.

[Fujikoma]

I had a mage once. Once his mentor pointed out to him the proper way to train spells, he started branching like crazy. Up until then, though, I was sitting there wondering "Why's my skill at max, but I'm not getting anywhere, surely I must be able to do more than my starting spells?", but, it goes QUITE quickly compared to my experience playing mundanes.

[Lizzie]

I had a mage once. Once his mentor pointed out to him the proper way to train spells, he started branching like crazy. Up until then, though, I was sitting there wondering "Why's my skill at max, but I'm not getting anywhere, surely I must be able to do more than my starting spells?", but, it goes QUITE quickly compared to my experience playing mundanes.

This here is what concerns me with the whole thread. The "proper way" to train spells - implies that there's only one correct way. To me, that further implies that you're talking about the coded min-maxing that some people focus on, because they identify their characters first as a set of coded skills, and only secondarily as living breathing characters in a fantasy world.

I think this is why there are some people who have complaints about this or that being too easy/hard. Because there exist some people who will use their knowledge of the code to train new players in the "way of the code" which solves any possible mystery of exploration.

For me, I'd rather have people guide me toward the general direction of things - and let me explore those mysteries myself - than have someone "teach me the proper way." With few exceptions - like when I outright ask for syntax, I don't want an IC lesson. I want the syntax.

Once you have been "taught the proper way," you can't unlearn it. So for people who are looking for the exploration, it's basically ruining the game for them. Mystery solved, game over - therefore this game sucks because it's too easy.

Maybe that's why I don't have any problem with the speed at which my mage characters improve: because I never understood the code, and never really cared overmuch about it. And - when people say "Oh no, PC, you will learn a new spell a lot quicker if you cast your first spell at yuqa, twice an hour, and only between the hours of high sun and dusk" - that just ruins it, when they're "teaching me the code." Now - if they're spouting IG mythology/rumor/superstition, that's great. But when it's obvious that it's a player who is trying to teach me the code, that's when I feel like they're wrecking the whole thing for me (especially when it's obvious they're practically reciting something they read somewhere else and it's very likely that what they read isn't even accurate).

[Fujikoma]

I think it's important to note that my mage's mentor sat him down and had many detailed explanations, not only of the individual words, but of why the strategies for growth made sense from an IC perspective (and he reccomended some actvities that I knew OOC were codedly counter-productive to advancement, but I sook them out anyway because it kept the story interesting), and wasn't just, if u do this u branch and then u get the monies. In fact, if it had never been explained to me, there's a great chance I NEVER would have branched a single spell. And if you think I play my characters like a list of skills, this is wrong. I play my characters as realistically as I am able and spend more time interacting than anything else.

Do I wander off and engage in semi-twinkish behavior from time to time? Yes, because, someday, I want my character to, you know, actually be able to DO something, without setting themself on fire somehow trying to carve a crappy bone knife, so when the situation requires it, my character will actually be useful for something besides comic relief. I don't think it's strange and I don't think it's out of line.

Sure, if you think the "proper" way to train up spells is to go stare at a chair and contemplate its construction and stability, then that's great. You can solo RP the crap out of that chair. It just won't be the "proper" way for anyone looking to be able to use their spells effectively, but how you play your character is up to you. Personally, when I say "proper", I mean, effective, as in, I'm not clutzing about due to some code mystery and now the path to advancing is open to me, should I choose to take it, and yes, there IS ONE proper way there. If I don't want to take that path, I can choose not to. Meanwhile, all "sekritz" as far as such obscure code quirks regarding advancement do is artificially increase the gap between veterans who know it, those who don't, and newbies.

[Desertman]

I know when I played a mage last I could get to the point I could do some very serious damage in less than 10 days played so I didn't care if I lost the PC doing that serious damage. Why would I? I can just roll up another and have them back to the same point in 10 days played or less which is really nothing at all. They are throwaway characters with huge power able to make throwaway decisions for the lulz.  

I've always felt we've had twisted views of a "long time" in Arm.  10 days played is 240 hours.  That's a long fucking time.  

*shrug*

I don't know what to say about that. I don't even really feel like I've started playing the game until I've hit the five day mark usually.

Ten days is just getting started.

I don't feel like my character is alive and rolling usually until the 20+ day mark.

Maybe that's just me.

If I can jack up any spell to mon in less than five days played (and you can, easily), even the starter spells, I don't even see the point in not just starting them at mon.

Just start them all at mon if you can master them in less than five days played casting nil. What's the point? It's not like you are working for it anyways.

[Desertman]

^ that. Once you have adult lives and jobs and college (that you actually care about getting good grades in) the timesink of Arm becomes a Real Problem.

For some people I guess.

[Fujikoma]

Dman, if you're maxxing your mages in 5 days played, then you need a sidequest. Doesn't matter what, just something.

EDIT: One of the funnier things my breed Rukkian's mentor told him was that exploring intense and pleasurable feelings was key to mastering the elements, and to go spend LOTS of time with his mundane human girlfriend... which, he did, religiously. I knew he wasn't going to skill up, but he didn't know that.

[Dresan]

Also,for the record I think combat is fine in this regard, you can see the difference between a 1 day old character, a 5 day old character, a 10 day old character. Its the other skills I wouldn't mind seeing improving a bit faster or perhaps just see wisdom buffed a bit more. With work and other responsibilities, its takes months to begin doing cool things with my character and then it dies to something silly.

Really? I'm very surprised by this. In my experience "the other skills" (read: not weapon skills) improve as quickly as spells do.

Right. I was saying it within the context of what I quoted though. As in 5 to 10 days isn't that 'quick' at all. Its actually a lot of fucking time to those of use with responsibility in our lives. That said, by the five to ten day mark, already excluding combat skills, some of my mundanes are beginning to reach the point where they can branch (of course some skills training quicker then others).  Again I'm someone who hasn't branched any of their mages anyways but I've heard some of them are maxed out by then. But I dunno.  

It could just be I don't train my characters as efficiently as others.

[Feco]

I want to be careful and say that I don't think people who can put in a lot of time don't have responsibilities or something like that -- that wasn't my point.  I just don't think 240 hours is trivial *at all*, and I think our tendency to think in "days played" in way very particular to this community has really made it seem like mages are easier to play than they really are.

[Delirium]

Yeah, I'll rephrase: responsibilities that don't allow you to spend 4+ hours playing Armageddon every day.

Sometimes you work in IT or as a hotel clerk and it's Armageddon City, baby, and that's totally okay. And I'm a little jealous.

[Desertman]

I want to be careful and say that I don't think people who can put in a lot of time don't have responsibilities or something like that -- that wasn't my point.  I just don't think 240 hours is trivial *at all*, and I think our tendency to think in "days played" in way very particular to this community has really made it seem like mages are easier to play than they really are.

Oh no, in terms of games 240 hours is a serious amount of time.

Then again, I think most of us can agree that Armageddon is easily the least forgiving most demanding and immersive game with the highest risk vs reward emotional investment that any of us has ever played.

240 hours is a lot for any game....but Armageddon is a game where someone dropping 1,200 hours on a single character isn't unheard of. I've done so more than once. I've dropped 2,400 hours on a PC and still felt like I had things to do....like I hadn't "won" or "made it" yet.

When you think about Armageddon in the context of a "game" you have to compare it to other games I think. On that front I don't think anyone would compare 240 hours in Armageddon to 240 hours playing Call of Duty as anywhere near the same sort of investment in terms of accomplishment.

You can win Call of Duty several times in 240 hours. You can get started on some characters in Armageddon in 240 hours.

[Desertman]

Yeah, I'll rephrase: responsibilities that don't allow you to spend 4+ hours playing Armageddon every day.

Sometimes you work in IT or as a hotel clerk and it's Armageddon City, baby, and that's totally okay. And I'm a little jealous.

Yeah I wasn't trying to shrug off your comment. My "For some people." was geared towards the mindset of, "Some people have a lot of time to truly get into Arm and some people are more casual players by circumstance.". With that being said, I don't think Armageddon is the sort of game where we want our karma classes and their advancement centered more around the casual players than the non-casual players.

I think we should find a happy medium...I can't say I'm smart enough to know what that would be. I'm obviously pretty hardcore in the corner of, "It should be hard.".

[Feco]

I already think it's the right amount of hard, in terms of progression.

[Desertman]

I already think it's the right amount of hard, in terms of progression.

Fair enough.

[Harmless]

Also,for the record I think combat is fine in this regard, you can see the difference between a 1 day old character, a 5 day old character, a 10 day old character. Its the other skills I wouldn't mind seeing improving a bit faster or perhaps just see wisdom buffed a bit more. With work and other responsibilities, its takes months to begin doing cool things with my character and then it dies to something silly.

Really? I'm very surprised by this. In my experience "the other skills" (read: not weapon skills) improve as quickly as spells do.

if you're going to remove nil based on the grounds that a.) it doesn't promote player interaction and b.) has no risk in exchange for the gain of more spells, then by the same logic, we must:

- remove the ability for stealth skills (hide/sneak/sleight of hand) to improve unless another PC is present for the skill failure
- remove the ability for burglars to practice lockpicking inside the safety of their apartment, and only from the other side of the door
- remove the ability to practice bandaging on yourself
- change scan so that you can't become a master scanner by repeatedly (failing to detect) the same hidden person/creature over and over, instead force players to detect hidden players or try to, or to increase the variety of what they detect (no more master scan from the same mob in the same city)
- change archery and throw so that it only trains up to a certain level on stationary targets, and cause that code to trigger aggro mobs to approach you and cowardly mobs to flee as soon as the first miss


etc etc. In other words, there's no reason in my mind to apply the logic of a) and b) above unfairly to magickers without also slapping similar nerfs to training and playability to all the other mundanes. And in the end, we all know the grind sucks, and we all know that magickers aren't even that difficult to deal with. So as I said in my first post 4 pages ago, I say we leave everything as it is, and focus on adding new things to make the mundane life more enjoyable.

[Desertman]

The idea that some things are easier for mundanes so they should be just as easy for high-karma required skillsets is fundamentally flawed as a whole in my opinion.

[Harmless]

karma has nothing to do with 'easy to play,' it is about trust staff has in a player to roleplay a role consistently and realistically to the gameworld. I don't see the connection you're arguing for.

[Inks]

I agree with Dman.

[musashi]

if you're going to remove nil based on the grounds that a.) it doesn't promote player interaction and b.) has no risk in exchange for the gain of more spells, then by the same logic, we must:

- remove the ability for stealth skills (hide/sneak/sleight of hand) to improve unless another PC is present for the skill failure
- remove the ability for burglars to practice lockpicking inside the safety of their apartment, and only from the other side of the door
- remove the ability to practice bandaging on yourself
- change scan so that you can't become a master scanner by repeatedly (failing to detect) the same hidden person/creature over and over, instead force players to detect hidden players or try to, or to increase the variety of what they detect (no more master scan from the same mob in the same city)
- change archery and throw so that it only trains up to a certain level on stationary targets, and cause that code to trigger aggro mobs to approach you and cowardly mobs to flee as soon as the first miss


etc etc. In other words, there's no reason in my mind to apply the logic of a) and b) above unfairly to magickers without also slapping similar nerfs to training and playability to all the other mundanes. And in the end, we all know the grind sucks, and we all know that magickers aren't even that difficult to deal with. So as I said in my first post 4 pages ago, I say we leave everything as it is, and focus on adding new things to make the mundane life more enjoyable.

I think you're being a little over dramatic to be honest. And those are not the grounds upon which I was suggesting to remove it.

My issue with the nil reach is not that it allows you to train "some" skills in the safety of your apartment, it's that it allows you to train your entire guild's skill set from the safety of your apartment.

If the nil reach was done away with there would still be plenty of spells that you could train while locked away in solitude. And that's fine, other guilds have skills you can easily train in solitude as well.

But ... just like the mundane guilds, mages would then have "some" skills that require them to get out and do things in the world to advance.

And that's the point.

[MeTekillot]

Mages do have a skill that requires them to go out into the world. That one skill they can get mad dosh with due to the odd tendency of shopkeeps to appraise things magickal at a higher price.

[musashi]

From my very first post:

Mages are the only guilds that can sit in the comfort of whatever safe space they've found be it an isolated forest clearing, an elemental temple, or an apartment and practice their entire skill set sans component crafting without need of risk or effort. They don't have to acquire any materials, they don't have to face life threatening dangers, they just have to solo RP with themselves, and cast "practice" spells until things branch.

I know dude ... I know.