Is it wrong that I want to kill all of you?

[Armaddict]

Mmkay.  So you took my breakdown and clarification of the pro-pk side that was being misrepresented and through the course of your post, turned it back into a 'You should not do it', thus...proving the point of the synopsis.  So there's not really anything else to say other than...exactly.

Aside from this:

Further, who are you to decide who's "uninvolved"? If you just go kill some random jerkwad and it's witnessed, and a lynch-mob forms, maybe there's a number of things you should have learned about your target before killing them, but decided "corruption murder betrayal, derp" *ding*, because obviously the mob weren't "uninvolved", despite outward appearances (although, I'm sure this, too, happens from time to time, and I'd say, when truly "uninvolved" parties do get "involved", it's OOCly motivated, but lets not kid ourselves, a lot of players have their PCs do things all the time that are OOCly motivated, stamping THAT out, I've found, is practically impossible). Yes, conflict ending in death is a very serious part of the game, but undue escalation, just cranking that shit up to 11 at the slightest provocation, is not really beneficial to the situation, nor is it in line with the idea of "self-preservation", but I see it all the time.

Because in many cases, investigation tells why people are being sent after you, and sometimes that reason has nothing to do with the target (i.e. It isn't vengeance), but the action (i.e.  You're being a raider).  It isn't about a personal interest, it's about maintaining a peace.  And here, in specifics, I'm talking outside the city.  Inside the city, there is a...different dynamic. BUT! That was the point that was being made, that cooperation against players who used violence against other players has grown common.  And to use your own words, who are you to decide what escalations are "undue" for which characters?  Do you know exactly how worried every character is about what, what affects which characters more profoundly than others, or what motivations and plans every character is progressing along or protecting?

Modified:  *Sigh* And I did pretty much the same thing.  Basically...yes, OP, go go PK, don't go out of character and over the top with it, but promote the conflict and danger of the gameworld.  Make no one trustworthy, make us all afraid of strangers, and that -is- the way Zalanthas should be.  Don't PK just to PK, don't turn it into a 'But the rush!' sort of thing, but keep the zalanthan 'never be prey' mentality alive.  We all need to remember not to be an easy target, because our boots are just too valuable.

[Revenant]

Having had my meek, nobody characters pursued across the known world by vast swaths of the rich and powerful, and suspected of foul play and badmouthed across the entire known world, for things my PC hadn't even done, I can empathize. Having been pressed for information by the AoD for, not having seen anything but a facewrap, a cloak, and a pair of slanted eyes, and even that being hazy because mace-to-the-head was also a bit dissappointing, as I was being threatened for not being able to remember squat but fuzzy bits. Eventually, it was coerced out of me (I was still a newb, and I really didn't want to lose my PC because the other PC was being a jerk), but not without a bit of torture "Uh, scar on his face?! Burns?!", I still didn't like the way it was handled by the authorities, because, ICly, how am I even supposed to recall that, so soon after the injuries were sustained?

Honestly liked that mul raider, gave the appropriate level of fear, and left me breathing a sigh of relief when my character died. But, I get what you're saying now, and yes, I too, find it somewhat rediculous.

EDIT: Didn't die, rather, the breed was allowed to live by the mul.

FURTHER EDIT: I think we're mostly in agreement here, Armaddict. I could be mistaken, though. Sorry for misunderstanding.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I want to address Talia's response from mid page 5ish. But first I want to say that, even though I'm vocally discontent and critical, Talia - I could not do what you do. Even minor leadership roles make this game feel too much like a part time job for me. Assistant Second Trooper of a Byn company with 3 active Sargeants? Noooo thank you!

Running plots is an incredibly intensive use of staff time. I cannot over-stress how taxing it is on staff time and stamina. I finished running a big plot at the end of May and I am still tired and not yet ready to contemplate another big plot. In between staff-run plots, players have to do their part.

Not to mention, in the middle of a big plot it is difficult to get any other game work done.

I can definitely respect how much time and effort this must take. I'm definitely not dedicated enough to this game to take that kind of time myself. But in a way, I think I can turn this into something that fits what I'm going for here.

But first, lets look back to the "good 'ol bad days" of the end of the world plotlines (circa '05-'09ish?). Halastar was running around building himself secret impenetrable castles and magic swords. A psionic Guild boss and nilazi hell beast had their feet/tenticles on the throat of Allanak. An elven Byn Sargeant became some kind of sorceror/psion/whatever and tried to turn the mercenary company into his private army. And that's only naming the most famous characters / examples from the period. It doesn't begin to touch all of what was happening. This was an absolutely wild period of the game. Probably too wild. A bit unrealistic at times, often exclusionary, and complete with its own set of frustrations. But god-fucking-damn was it interesting.

I don't necessarily want to see those days return, but here's the pearl in the shit-horror's shell; all of those characters were PCs. (Well, Halastar was an imm playing a PC, but even so.) Eventually it was decided that we would keep Arm 1. Many of the controversial imms of the time took off... and then began the slow (d)evolution to the game we play now. Specialty roles were nixed. I gather higher levels of oversight were imposed on Story tellers. Many clans were closed. (And now a city.) Things seem much more bureaucratic (read; regulated/congested). This led to fewer possibilities for ambitious PCs. Fewer spectacles to inspire the players. And ultimately a resigned realization that there wasn't a whole hell of a lot to aspire to. That's my take on it, anyways.

So, lets look at the Jade Cross raid again. (As much as I hate to keep bringing this back to raiders alone, I think it's a good example of what I'm proposing.) Or that group of red-cloaked raiders who lived out in the Sea of Silt and gave Salarr a hard time (I want to say this was probably '08-'09ish?) From what I could gather these raiders were played, in a limited fashion, by immortals. Why couldn't they have been played be a special PCs? Why couldn't the staff have put out a specialty role call for a short-lived pack of raiders. I know, some of them would've died prematurely. Some of them would've violated the plots MO, and maybe defected to Allanak or some shit. But would this have been so bad? How does it differ from any of the clans the staff currently oversees? If someone does something stupid, just animate the big mul boss and slap them back into place. Pretty much business as usual in a clan.

Basically what I'm asking is, why does it always have to be a tightly controlled plot run by the immortals? I feel like setting up the playerbase to do some of your dirty work and play some (gaaaaaasp!) non-traditional roles from time to time would be a great way to re-introduce some of the conflict that is clearly desired by the players, while inducing much less labor upon the storytellers to move a plot. (You'd have to build a few rooms and items, approve some applications, and read/respond to some character reports.)

Not really a question, just some food for thought.

tldr; What if the glass ceiling and lack of real possibility is what's actually making this game boring?

[John]

if you're going to OOCly motivate your character to engage in these acts at every available opportunity, like some dwarf with a focus, then are you really playing you character as believably as possible? Or is it simply a machine designed to carry out the game's tagline? It's the latter I have an issue with.

And as I've explained at length it is quite easy and thematically appropriate to make a 3vdimensional character who engages in MCB because that's the type of world they live in. Could you create Ghandi? Sure. But it would go against how the world is set up.

[Tetra]

Could you create Ghandi? Sure. But it would go against how the world is set up.

That's black-and-white logic.  Arm is harsh, that does not mean uncommon archetypes do not present themselves effectively, and sensibly.

The game is already set up in such a way to facilitate MCB, which means naturally, you don't have to try so hard to see it manifest in the game environment.

[Armaddict]

The game is already set up in such a way to facilitate MCB, which means naturally, you don't have to try so hard to see it manifest in the game environment.

...if we only wanted it to exist in the VNPC populace and NPC populace, that would be accurate.

[Tetra]

The game is already set up in such a way to facilitate MCB, which means naturally, you don't have to try so hard to see it manifest in the game environment.

...if we only wanted it to exist in the VNPC populace and NPC populace, that would be accurate.

I'm talking about power structures, aideship, and the system of advancement in general.  All of it is designed for MCB.  I can guarantee you, if you didn't go out of your way to Murder, Corrupt, Or Betray anyone -- you'd have to eventually in the natural course of play.  But that is a debate for the philosophers.

[John]

If everyone doesn't go out of their way, then it can be quite easy to play "everyone bands together to fight against the common threat". The only reason you get any MCB is because someone decided it made sense for their character to pursue it. No-one is advocating that every single character has to try to MCB every single other character. In fact people have argued against that while advocating more in your face antagonistic roles.

Some people, on the other hand, have said they don't enjoy PvP and only want to play PvE and PvNPC and PvStaff.

[Revenant]

If everyone doesn't go out of their way, then it can be quite easy to play "everyone bands together to fight against the common threat". The only reason you get any MCB is because someone decided it made sense for their character to pursue it. No-one is advocating that every single character has to try to MCB every single other character. In fact people have argued against that while advocating more in your face antagonistic roles.

Some people, on the other hand, have said they don't enjoy PvP and only want to play PvE and PvNPC and PvStaff.

Yes, well, it is true, not everyone wants to participate, and I can gaurentee you, if you go for a long enough run trying not to participate, some ass-clown is going to drag your butt into it anyway, at which point you may have to MCB the fuck out of everyone that's not in your circle if you ever hope to get out of the bullshit everyone heaps on you and your allies alive. (hint: you won't, because people will keep crying about the bodies you left in your wake because people were too dumb to leave you the hell alone, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat)

I don't think you're really imagining the entire playerbase (as well as virtual population) subscribing to these entirely destructive ideas with as much zeal as some seem to advocate at once. I'm sorry, it really doesn't create a believable atmosphere, Allanak would be razed to the ground overnight, as would any non-tribal human settlement. And that's what you have to keep in mind, that for every act you do from some OOC compulsion to stay in line with some vague three word mantra, someone else was doing the exact same thing five minutes ago. These things happen on their own, simply due to the way everything is structured, there's no need to go out of your way looking for it, no need to try and one-up everyone (hey, I just stabbed someone I know nothing about! It's great RP guys! The website says so on the banner!) it's unnavoidable with the way everything is set up.

I've come from hack and slash and PvP muds almost exclusively, I mean, I enjoyed them, but most of them have zero focus on roleplay, nor do they have permadeath. I'm sorry, I don't think too much is broken here, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Follow the docs and you'll find plenty of damn good, compelling IC reasons, that don't require preconceived notions based on some banner on the website to pursue. Oh, by the way, when I read the title to the thread, I was thinking, wow, someone's asking the exact same question I have, and why? Not because of my commitment to some tagline, I'll tell you that much.

Keep it IC and stick somewhere vaguely around the docs and conflict will come to you.

[John]

I don't think you're really imagining the entire playerbase (as well as virtual population) subscribing to these entirely destructive ideas with as much zeal as some seem to advocate at once.

I think you are ascribing far too much zeal to me at least. I went on to explain my thoughts in three entire posts with a step by step thought process on incorporating MCB into your character.

Allanak would be razed to the ground overnight

Sure, if you want to take it to the most extreme interpretation possible. Can you please quote the person who is supposedly advocating for such an extreme though?

for every act you do from some OOC compulsion to stay in line with some vague three word mantra

Yeah, I'm going to call bullshit on this. Every single character is creted from OOC motivations. People have jumped onto the idea of the phrase "pursuing MCB like a dwarf pursuing their focus" but it's actually a misinterpretation of what I was saying. That was fine initially, but since that line was used I have expounded on my position at great length and yet people are continuing to use that soundbite. So I'm now calling bullshit. If you create a rutheless character that will murder to get ahead, then you're motivated by an OOC desire when you create that character. If you play a corruptible character that is happy to do pretty much anything for the right price, you then you're motivated by an OOC desire when you create that character. If you will play someone who will betray their own mother for the right price, then you're motivated by an OOC desire when you create that character. If you play someone that tries to skate on by and never rocks the boat or does or says anything controversial, thn you're motivated by an OOC desire when you create that character. Singling out someone as being motivated by an OOC desire when you ignore we are all motivated by OOC desires is bullshit.

no need to try and one-up everyone (hey, I just stabbed someone I know nothing about! It's great RP guys! The website says so on the banner!)

Please quote the person advocating that people do this. Because I must have missed them when trying to discuss the topic at hand. It certainly can't be me, after all I specifically called for judicious use of PKing where most appropriate (PK is often cited as one of the biggest plot killers and can set back plots months if not kill them before they get off the ground).

I don't think too much is broken here, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Follow the docs and you'll find plenty of damn good, compelling IC reasons, that don't require preconceived notions based on some banner on the website to pursue.

I do stick to the docs and the themes of the game. I expect everyone who plays to do that or to have an unusual character with compelling reasons as to why they don't. You don't see me trying to couch people's preferences or ideas in the most extreme way possible so I can then deride those opinions.

Keep it IC and stick somewhere vaguely around the docs and conflict will come to you.

I can create an IC character that tries to not make waves or do anything controversial and works hard and stays within the boundaries of the social structures and get ahead quite a bit. Or I can make a character that's interesting, has a chance at being memorable and affect other character's lives. I know which one I go for. I don't see why people are advocating making boring characters (see! I was able to couch what you say in the most extreme possible way as well! But this surely contributes to the conversation in a way that is meaningful and positive, right? right?)

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Every single character is created from OOC motivations. ... If you will play someone who will betray their own mother for the right price, then you're motivated by an OOC desire when you create that character. If you play someone that tries to skate on by and never rocks the boat or does or says anything controversial, than you're motivated by an OOC desire when you create that character. Singling out someone as being motivated by an OOC desire when you ignore we are all motivated by OOC desires is bullshit.

If this thread were a book, this would be the jacket.

One of my favorite anecdotes is from way back when Delerak was running around senselessly PKing everything that moved. (We don't need a guy like that around, but I wouldn't mind a few more players with a small cut of that same cloth sewn into their pockets.) Realizing they couldn't actually ban him or get him to stop, a cunning staff member simply gave him the option of playing gith chief. In a way it was kind of like "rewarding" bad behavior, but it took a negative OOC motivation and turned it into something that fit well within the game world.

[Revenant]

Look, John, when I come up with a character concept, I never, ever try to predict where they'll end up, because they are, without fail, always thrown off course by unforseen events and interactions. They're swayed, corrupted, and in turn they corrupt, but this is a natural development and nothing I really have to think about doing. Eventually, among the ties they've made, someone breaks ranks, because it's what's right for their character, and so, my character is betrayed, and learns that a timely betrayal can negate a shitstorm down the road, and so incorporates this tool into their arsenal, though tends to use it when necessary. Friends and loved ones are murdered, and so murder becomes another necessary tool in the kit, even if it was never a part of the character concept.

My concern is, you need to consider that not all the people reading this thread are veterans to the game, much less to RP, and without a well and clear worded explanation, and just people saying MCB, then you really send the wrong message and set the wrong example, and when a mob of twink-killer newbs bubbles up and eventually some of them grow strong enough to do some damage, with some mistaken concept that they should pursue these things at every available opportunity, yes, you get what you put into discussions like these. It's like this with many over-simplified concepts posted to the GDB. You seem to be interpreting my words as some sort of personal attack on your playstyle, which, I know fuck-all about, and is quite possibly excellent and inspiring. Really, it's more a nitpicking of your wording and how it could be misleading to others who take it as a guideline for playing the game, which, isn't meant to be personal in the slightest.

EDIT: Also, no, I don't want an overwhelming bunch of boring characters running around, although I suppose they have their place in the world. I would rather have interesting, inspiring characters with flaws, potentially dangerous characters, but I would like that tempered with a certain degree of respect for other players and their plots. I've seen not so exciting characters that embrace MCB at every available opportunity. Destructive-boring has got to be my least favorite alignment, but that's just personal preference I suppose. Creative-interesting tend to run into their own sets of problems, but they happen to be my favorite. Suppose destructive-interesting is pretty cool, as long as not taken to extremes.

[Barzalene]

Even if everyone bands together, someone has to be it. Otherwise there's nothing to band together against. We all need to take a turn being it.

[Barzalene]

Granted we can make staff be it every time, but then we're relying on staff to make all our fun. That takes all the power out of our hands and it becomes a pretty big job for them. What if they don't have time? What if there's a staff turnover? What if etc.

[Barzalene]

Also it means that we give them all the fun.

[Revenant]

Even if everyone bands together, someone has to be it. Otherwise there's nothing to band together against. We all need to take a turn being it.

Yeah, well, I tire of being "it" sometimes. Someone else take that ball and run with it, please.

[manonfire]

I'm on it.

[AdamBlue]

Mwahahaha! Time for my sudden yet inevitable betrayal!
PHASE ONE: COMPLETE
INITIATE HEEL TURN
GOAL: MURDER

[John]

Really, it's more a nitpicking of your wording

Wow, what a meaningful contribution to the thread. Rather than nitpick you could have said this upfront. Instead you chose to interpret my post in the most extreme manner possible and then nitpick that interpretation.

Look, John, when I come up with a character concept, I never, ever try to predict where they'll end up

without a well and clear worded explanation, and just people saying MCB,

This indicates you either didn't read my follow up post or are ignoring it. So here it is again:

Just to beat this dead horse some more into the ground, here is: John's Guide to Creating Sustainable Meaningful Conflict

I'm thinking people might be misunderstanding me when I say 90% of the playerbase should be striving towards murder, corruption and betrayal and the conflict that surrounds these themes. So here's my thoughts laid out on how achieving these conflict makes for a more enjoyable game. Borrowed shamelessly from Vanth's Guide to Noble PCs.

Step 1: Make friends

When you start out whatever you do, don't make waves. You have no clout, you don't (necessarily) know the lay of the land and you need to prove yourself. Murder, Corruption and Betrayal can come later. To start with you need to become useful to the powers that be.

If you don't wait and do murder and betray everybody you meet, you'll likely be doing it solo and it will become an isolating and boring role. You'll also inevitably be killed. While the only rule in Armageddon is that everyone dies, you want yours to be an achievement, not a minor footnote that goes unremarked.

So making friends, as counterproductive as it might sound, is the key to creating sustainable meaningful conflict. Don't listen to those who tell you that you need to hide and grind your skills up and then be a badass. Impatience will set in and you'll almost always do somethig stupid. Make friends who will be able to back you up in the event that someone wants revenge.

Don't make too many friends though. Who your friendly with will (ideally) shut out who you can be friends with and will (hopefully) cause you to inherit your friends' enemies.

Step 2: Get powerful allies

Everybody wants something. It might not be coin, in fact with how easy coin is to earn it will often not be coin. But they will want something. Whether it's information, items, someone dead, someone blocked from performing a task, a f-buddy, etc. Find out what that something is that a powerful person wants. And then give it to them.

The more powerful the person, the more difficult it might be to get them what they want. Even learning what it is they want can be difficult. But that's where your friends come into the picture. They can help you learn what it is the person wants. It might be through betrayal, it could be through corruption. It could (rarely) be through murder. Or it could simply be given to you. Whatever that thing is though, your friends will hopefully help you learn it. If you can't, then choose someone less powerful and learn what they want. Make them a friend or an ally and then use them to gain a more powerful ally.

Your friends can also help you get whatever it is that the powerful person wants. If you don't have the resources or skill to get it yourself, enlist the aid of others. This will possibly require you to do things for them in return, etc, etc until eventually you have that thing you wanted. You can then present that thing to the powerful figure. This will establish you as someone that is useful and worth having around. The more you do for this powerful figure, the more they will assist you when someone comes after you.

Step 3: Set Goals and Desires

By this stage your character will be an established figure in the game. They're known as someone who gets shit done. On an OOC level players will want to play with you because they know you'll find interesting things for them to do and that you'll make the game more enjoyable. On an IC level working with you comes with benefits (either tangible or intangible rewards). It is now time for you to decide what you want in life.

You might have had an initial idea when you wrote your character's background. Through play you might have seen things that you decided you want. Now is the time to definitively set those goals and desires of what you want. A good desire or goal will be one that helps put you at odds with other players.

Some examples include:
* Create a clan that lasts longer than your character.
* Gain a powerful position in an established clan.
* Have nice things.
* Gain the ability to slack off and not have to work very hard.

Step 4: Identify Potential Obstacles

These aren't people who WILL stop you, these are people who COULD try to to stop you. Let's face it, you can't always trust other players to live up to the themes of the game. Some players are new, others just have no interest in that aspect of the game. Others are simply so exhausted from their recent efforts that they don't have the energy to engage in a heavy amount of MCB. So you may need to initiate it or inspire them yourself. That's okay. Creating your own enemies will make it easier for you sustainable and meaningful conflict to be created in the future. Other players will also see how much fun there is in doing it and become inspired themselves.

There'll also be non-PC obstacles as well. Make sure you identify those as they'll be important to give your character something to do other than "GWRAR! More PKz!!!!!1111"

Step 5: Deal with the potential obstacles

It doesn't matter if they're true obstacles or not. If they aren't an obstacle, they could one day gain enough care-factor to become one. They could also be incentivised by your true enemies to become a problem. So be proactive and deal with them.

However you can't just murder them all at once. You'll quickly become too great of a cost to your allies to keep you around. They'll betray you and abandon you to distance simply because the cost/benefit analysis comes up short in your favour. So you need to be subtle and you need to be patient. This is where non-PC obstacles are important because you can attack at 3 or 4 obstacles and only have 1 or 2 of them be actual PCs.

How do you deal with PC obstacles? Here is where variety is truly the spice of life. Using a one-size fits all approach will get monotonous and boring for all involved. So while there's definitely murder, if they're in an established clan they'll simply be replaced by someone else. If the clan learns that you were responsible for the original murder you may become a target for the replacement clannie.

Instead you can:
* Make them a friend or an ally: Find out how to make yourself useful to them so they stop being an obstacle and instead become an ally. If they're powerful, this can be of great benefit to you. You can also always betray them later once they stop being useful.
* Discredit them: Plant false rumours about what they're doing. Assassinate people and make it look like the obstacle was the responsible party. Get them thrown out of their clan or make their allies turn on them.
* Distract them: Get them chasing off something else you don't care about while you enact your plans. By the time they finish chasing the distraction you should have maneuvered yourself into a position where they can no longer stop you. If not, plan successive distractions or use a different method.
* Blackmail them: Find out a dirty little secret they have and blackmail them. So long as you don't make your demands disproportionate to the blackmail you have they might not even plot to kill you.

Step 6: Achieve your goals

This is where you've successfully dealt with all potential obstacles and have now gained what you set out to achieve.

Step 7: Set new goals

Go back to Step 3 and set new goals. You can continue to cycle through Steps 3-6 indefinitely, creating plenty of conflict and enjoyment along the way. Regardless of what staff are doing, you'll be able to make things exciting and fun for the playerbase at large. Even if your only goal is "Hold on to what I have" that is still a goal that can create plenty of conflict. Because eventually someone will want what you have and start plotting against you.

----
This is what I mean by player conflict should be the main driver of the game and that everyone should strive for murder, betrayal and corruption every day. It doesn't need to be achieved every day, but your activities should have that end goal in mind.

Player conflict doesn't have to be "Total Allanak Drama" all the time. Nor do you need to create a character with the IC goal of "murderize, betray and corrupt all the poeplezzzz!" Creating three dimensional characters while keeping in mind the virtual world and the themes of the game should be all that's needed to create plenty of PvP.

You'll also notice that PK is not the main driver of this, which I realise is at odds with the initial post in this thread. Murder is definitely an important tool in the "Let's enjoy the game" toolbox. But it's only one of many and should be used as appropriate.

Of course, following this model you'll get plenty of co-operation. Co-operation is good and needed. But just as Vanth's Guide to Nobles mentions, thinking of someone as "always 100% an ally" reduces your power and makes you subserviant to them. There might be the rare individual with whom you think of in this manner. But they should be few and far between. Allies should always be on a "for now" basis.

So what's different between what we have now and using the above method? Not very much. I always assume that people who are being friendly are either in Step 1-2. New characters will definitely be in the Step 1-2 phase and so it will look exactly like what we currently have. But the longer lived characters should definitely be in the Step 3-6 phase. You might be all smiles and giggles in public and totally plotting against people in private. And that's great. But there comes a time when thought needs to turn into action.

To enable more conflict, as a playerbase when we find out "So-and-So just murdered Such and Such" we shouldn't automatically go "Lets team up against Such-and-Such." There should definitely be room for "Such-and-Such is someone who can get shit done. Could I use that to achieve my goals?"

If this isn't well worded and/or then please provide critical feedback rather than simply negative feedback or hit picky feedback.

[Revenant]

No, no, actually reading through that, instead of skimming it like a douche, I actually agree. Sorry I looked at it and thought tl;dr before. That's exactly how I think it should be done.

EDIT: I especially like how it encourages other options being the go-to for problems instead of murder. Granted, it will be called for at times, but, it's not the optimal solution in numerous cases.

[John]

No, no, actually reading through that

No worries. I agree it was a wall of text, although I didn't know how to get it through any clearer than that. I'm glad you liked it.

[Revenant]

No, no, actually reading through that

No worries. I agree it was a wall of text, although I didn't know how to get it through any clearer than that. I'm glad you liked it.

Yeah, real sorry, again, just, there's been so many posts to this thread that, I did skim some bits. And thanks for being understanding. Thanks for bringing it to my attention that I skipped over a damn good bit of advice, even if some was borrowed. Granted, there will always be language that can be twisted or skewed, but, those were pretty good guidelines. I think, the only thing I would add, would be aknowledging the virtual environment, as I've had that crack down on me, hard, before, didn't matter how well connected my elf was, in the grand scheme of things, I shouldn't have overestimated their standing among the powerful PC population as expanding anywhere beyond that. I'm being intentionally vague, even if it has been more than a year.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

And when IAmJacks saw John and Revenant's capacity for love, forgiveness, and tolerance, his heart grew three sizes and he realized that he did not, in fact, want to kill all of them.

Just kidding! He still does!

[Revenant]

And when IAmJacks saw John and Revenant's capacity for love, forgiveness, and tolerance, his heart grew three sizes and he realized that he did not, in fact, want to kill all of them.

Just kidding! He still does!

I've always been a fan of: "I like you. I think I'll kill you last."

Group hug! (draw knife sheath)

[Delirium]

https://youtu.be/N1qroY4SQLw