The 9 Benefits of Encouraging Spice Addiction

[Clearsighted]

Do you think having Apprentice/Journey think/feel sense while addicted and high on tho, wouldn't be fun or would harm the game?

I personally think it would harm the game. 

If this works for PCs, it would work for NPCs as well.  Enter the spice-addicted NPCs that are just posted about the Gaj, and they don't get their next dose from Noble/Merchant/Templar until they come back with some juicy tidbit that likely costs a character their status, plot, life.

Players, knowing that their thoughts are now open to interception, stop using thinks unless they want that think known to others.  The characters don't think anyless, the think-code just gets conveniently not used.

Suddenly there is a huge incentive to be spice addicted, you have access to information no one else should and you'll (oddly) be protected because you're an addict instead of being shunned having such a disgusting habit. 

1) Your 'drawback', vis a vis the NPCs, sounds more interesting than the status quo. Good thinking!
2) It's very expensive, once spice addicted, to maintain the habit. Your average NPC is screwed. Unless there's a shadow economy in Allanak catering just to them.
3) Who regularly smokes spice in the Gaj? It's Militia Central.
4) Most PCs just don't use thinks or feels - period. Those that do, I'm sure wouldn't mind having them be witnessed by someone.
5) As someone else already posted, at low-level apprentice/journeyman type receptivity, it could emanate from random people, without being pinpoint accurate or consistent.
6) An incentive to be spice-addicted is cool. If you have ever been spice addicted, or dealt with serious spice withdrawl, you should know how horrible it is to be.

[Desertman]

I like the idea of spice giving more beneficial and possibility even supernatural type abilities.

I like the idea of giving people more of a reason to do spice.

I would like to add in the idea that extremely high-quality versions of the spices that already exist in game might give you extra "good stuff" that normal quality stuff doesn't give you, and would even give you less/no negative side effects later, even to the point of addiction, so long as you kept up your now extremely expensive spice habit with your high quality spice.....if you can maintain, you are good to go with all of the benefits...if you start being able to not maintain, you quickly take huge negatives and side effects until you can get back on the pony, or you finally after a long time get over your addiction to that extra dank herb. (I'm not sure if I used that right. I don't know about dope things.)

If you are filthy rich and can afford that high quality herb, you are fine, but how long can you keep affording it?

In my mind that should be the game with spice.

If you are smoking the low-quality stuff, you get the same sort of "effects" you get now. I would even go so far as to say the stuff we have now at its current prices would even be just fine to consider the "normal/low quality stuff.".


The super high end stuff that gives you all of the special badass perks and keeps you from having negatives so long as you keep up your addiction? Five or ten times more expensive.

Psionic benefits? Sure.
Boosted stats? Sure.
Increased maximum HP/Stamina/Stun/Mana? Sure.
Bumps to certain skills even beyond master level if you are smoking enough high quality spice and can keep it up? Absolutely.

And of course, the longer you smoke it, the more addicted you get, but also, the longer you smoke it, the more of a chance you have of possibly unlocking "new spice related abilities". The longer you can maintain your addiction, and the more addicted you become, the more powerful you can become.....but only so long as you keep up with your habit and keep forking over that mad cash.

Better hope your supplier keeps supplying and you somehow keep affording it though.

I would even like the idea that if you got ultra-high-end addicted, that there would never be any way to get off of it without death...either you maintain at that point, or you die from your addiction.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And ... it's illegal.

Seriously, this recreates spice, really makes it that thing in the shadows that drags people down into the gutter once they can't have it, but puts them in the clouds when they can afford/kill for/steal it. I'm really with this idea. It's both playable oocly, and absolutely explains addiction.

[Synthesis]

I like the idea of spice giving more beneficial and possibility even supernatural type abilities.

I like the idea of giving people more of a reason to do spice.

I would like to add in the idea that extremely high-quality versions of the spices that already exist in game might give you extra "good stuff" that normal quality stuff doesn't give you, and would even give you less/no negative side effects later, even to the point of addiction, so long as you kept up your now extremely expensive spice habit with your high quality spice.....if you can maintain, you are good to go with all of the benefits...if you start being able to not maintain, you quickly take huge negatives and side effects until you can get back on the pony, or you finally after a long time get over your addiction to that extra dank herb. (I'm not sure if I used that right. I don't know about dope things.)

If you are filthy rich and can afford that high quality herb, you are fine, but how long can you keep affording it?

In my mind that should be the game with spice.

If you are smoking the low-quality stuff, you get the same sort of "effects" you get now. I would even go so far as to say the stuff we have now at its current prices would even be just fine to consider the "normal/low quality stuff.".


The super high end stuff that gives you all of the special badass perks and keeps you from having negatives so long as you keep up your addiction? Five or ten times more expensive.

Psionic benefits? Sure.
Boosted stats? Sure.
Increased maximum HP/Stamina/Stun/Mana? Sure.
Bumps to certain skills even beyond master level if you are smoking enough high quality spice and can keep it up? Absolutely.

And of course, the longer you smoke it, the more addicted you get, but also, the longer you smoke it, the more of a chance you have of possibly unlocking "new spice related abilities". The longer you can maintain your addiction, and the more addicted you become, the more powerful you can become.....but only so long as you keep up with your habit and keep forking over that mad cash.

Better hope your supplier keeps supplying and you somehow keep affording it though.

I would even like the idea that if you got ultra-high-end addicted, that there would never be any way to get off of it without death...either you maintain at that point, or you die from your addiction.

[James de Monet]

Clearsighted, it seems like your base argument is: 'the docs say tons of people are addicted to spice, but almost no PCs are.'

Okay, I get that.  But I'm not sure incentivizing addiction is the way to achieve docs adherence.  Isn't that kind of backward?  Do people get addicted in real life for the perks?  I think they mostly get addicted because they want the high so badly.  That's a perk of the drugs, not of addiction.  Addiction is a side-effect of seeking that high.  In fact, repeated usage has diminishing effects on the high received (go-go Synthesis biology lesson?).

It works the same in game, it's just very hard to incentivize people based on physical sensations (ecstasy, pain, etc) in a text-based medium, because no one actually feels any of those things.  It's like a society full of people with nerve damage.

That being said, you see a little defensive about people approaching your idea critically.  Just because people aren't instantly convinced doesn't mean it's a bad idea.  I think its a very interesting idea in its own right, even apart from considerations about addiction.  I think you might be overestimating the simplicity of coding such a thing, however.

[Clearsighted]

Clearsighted, it seems like your base argument is: 'the docs say tons of people are addicted to spice, but almost no PCs are.'

Okay, I get that.  But I'm not sure incentivizing addiction is the way to achieve docs adherence.  Isn't that kind of backward?  Do people get addicted in real life for the perks?

I think they do. It's just that in a text mud game, it's harder to make 'perks' vs say, what we seek in real life.

You could not do any coded perks, and as turbo said, just RP-pretend around it. But that would still leave PCs out of seeming consonance with the rest of the VNPC/NPC population.

Maybe there are ideas better than mine. I don't know. What I'd like to see is spice be as scary tempting/addictive to PCs as it is to the virtual population, and not something easily skirted/avoided. Historically, in order to achieve something like this, it required at least a little positives thrown in - as opposed to the completely crippling and horrible nature of spice addiction currently. Which is best avoided, except in cases of suicide, self-sabotage, or fantastic RPers.

I'd like to see a change that shifted the status quo among PCs closer to what the docs claim is reality.

That being said, you see a little defensive about people approaching your idea critically.  Just because people aren't instantly convinced doesn't mean it's a bad idea.  I think its a very interesting idea in its own right, even apart from considerations about addiction.  I think you might be overestimating the simplicity of coding such a thing, however.

Only thing I'm annoyed by is some people conflating the statted beneficial effects of some spice with the reality of spice addiction. It's just a smokescreen (pun intended).

Sure. You can smoke war spice every 15 minutes, and have the statted benefits all the time. But that's not a Spice Addiction-related benefit. That's just someone smoking a lot of war spice (a suicidal amount, given its cost vs withdrawal).

I don't care about the current effects or non-effects of different kinds of spice. All I care about is making Spice Addiction be a stage that any PC would rationally seek out.

So it feels like when people continually bring up the effects of spice in general, it feels like it is distracting from the actual point of the conversation. That's a little frustrating.

I hope that's understandable.

[John]

One of the biggest problems with spice is that your avrage Allanaki PC needs to rely on PCs to get spice. Imagine how unusable the game would be if you had to rely on PCs to get weapons or else you were forced to go into the Labyrinth, Red Storm or Luirs Outpost to get the weapons. The number of people making combat oriented characters would drop off dramatically. And yet that's the situation spice is in.

I think we need an NPC who is an open secret and outrageously bribes the Templarate so that they can sell spice. Put it at a significant markup to other sources so that enterprising characters can get a cheaper supply and still sell spice to PCs.

[Clearsighted]

One of the biggest problems with spice is that your avrage Allanaki PC needs to rely on PCs to get spice. Imagine how unusable the game would be if you had to rely on PCs to get weapons or else you were forced to go into the Labyrinth, Red Storm or Luirs Outpost to get the weapons. The number of people making combat oriented characters would drop off dramatically. And yet that's the situation spice is in.

I think we need an NPC who is an open secret and outrageously bribes the Templarate so that they can sell spice. Put it at a significant markup to other sources so that enterprising characters can get a cheaper supply and still sell spice to PCs.

There's currently no real spice-smuggling RP existing, as is. So I don't really find it helpful or realistic to introduce an NPC to automatically fulfill one's spice needs, the moment that people might actually start seeking out PC smugglers. It would kill all the RP/conflict that the change hoped to engender.

Beyond that, the 'rinth, Red Storm, and Luir's Outpost owe their primary existence to the spice trade. So making people be able to avoid going there, to get their smuggled spice, seems misguided as well. The 'rinth isn't that far away after all, and basically, the very same NPC you want already exists there.

It'd be nice if rinthers could actually make a profit running spice into and out of the 'rinth, and the Militia had to deal with it.

[John]

We've had the current status quo for many, many years. Tuluk did see spice addicts. How many spice addicts do you think there have been in Allanak for the past five years? Also you try taking your average nakkie into the 'rinth and tell me how long they'll survive (hint: not very long and it's not just the PCs you have to worry about).

[ibusoe]

I actually like this idea, although I feel the same as several other of the senior twinks that implementation would be dicey.

I tend to feel that you're operating under spurious logic, though.  

Putting some thought into this, I quickly realized that more spice-doing could be completely virtual.  If you were that into spice, you could simply smoke it virtually, and then role play out in game (for the benefit of other players) the nasty side effects of addiction.  

So why aren't people doing this?  It would seem that most of the players don't want to play spice addicts.  The people who are into the spice scene seem to play social spice users.

I think if you really wanted to encourage people to play spice heads, you probably should just submit some fanfiction that makes spice addiction seem cool.  Remember Requiem for a Dream?  I kind of thought that movie was stupid, but it did have the effect of kind of making people want to do drugs.

Your mileage may vary.

[James de Monet]

I don't care about the current effects or non-effects of different kinds of spice. All I care about is making Spice Addiction be a stage that any PC would rationally seek out.

So it feels like when people continually bring up the effects of spice in general, it feels like it is distracting from the actual point of the conversation. That's a little frustrating.

I hope that's understandable.

Sure, it's understandable, but I don't think they are intentionally trying to detract from your point. I think they're confused about the concept of 'benefits of addiction'.  I'm not sure that's a thing, which might be why people find it confusing.

For example, in RL, people don't say "let's go get addicted to THC."  But they might say "smoke weed erryday."  It is the use, and not the addiction, which provides benefits.  That's what people were trying to say about the game as well. It is the use of spice, not the addiction to it, which should confer benefits.  Addiction is a negative side-effect that occurs when you use drugs to experience the benefits.

I think we might all have a clearer understanding of your idea if you can relate what you think the RL benefits of drug addiction are (as compared to the benefits of drug use).

If you aren't trying to draw RL parallels, that's fine, but I think that's where people are getting hung up.

[Olafson]

Note:  I haven't really read the entire thread, but here are my two cents anyways.

Having played a spice addict recently (not really of their choice), I have to say that the addiction code kicks ass, but is very hard.

The easiest way to encourage more spice addicts?  Lower the price so everyone can use it and the average citizen can afford it.

Everyone should encourage it to become part of the "party" scene.

Peer pressure!  Look down on those who nay say it.

More of the "authorities" need to look the other way for spice code as well, long as they get a pinch.

This happens at the upper end, but not enough at the lower end.

More corruption!

Players can make this happen, just make spice cheaper.

[Clearsighted]

I don't care about the current effects or non-effects of different kinds of spice. All I care about is making Spice Addiction be a stage that any PC would rationally seek out.

So it feels like when people continually bring up the effects of spice in general, it feels like it is distracting from the actual point of the conversation. That's a little frustrating.

I hope that's understandable.

Sure, it's understandable, but I don't think they are intentionally trying to detract from your point. I think they're confused about the concept of 'benefits of addiction'.  I'm not sure that's a thing, which might be why people find it confusing.

For example, in RL, people don't say "let's go get addicted to THC."  But they might say "smoke weed erryday."  It is the use, and not the addiction, which provides benefits.  That's what people were trying to say about the game as well. It is the use of spice, not the addiction to it, which should confer benefits.  Addiction is a negative side-effect that occurs when you use drugs to experience the benefits.

I think we might all have a clearer understanding of your idea if you can relate what you think the RL benefits of drug addiction are (as compared to the benefits of drug use).

If you aren't trying to draw RL parallels, that's fine, but I think that's where people are getting hung up.

Has nothing to do with RL addiction or parallels. It has to do with creating new avenues of RP and conflict, in what is currently a major aspect of the game setting (spice, its trade, smuggling, illegality and various effects on its users) that feels underutilized.

The only RL parallel to be drawn is that IRL, we are far more motivated by pleasure, than we are in a game. So sometimes, inventive ways are needed to get around that, to make illicit substances equally as exciting when encountered in different contexts.

Putting some thought into this, I quickly realized that more spice-doing could be completely virtual.  If you were that into spice, you could simply smoke it virtually, and then role play out in game (for the benefit of other players) the nasty side effects of addiction.  

So why aren't people doing this?  It would seem that most of the players don't want to play spice addicts.  The people who are into the spice scene seem to play social spice users.

My suspicion is that more people aren't doing it, because it's not as fun, compared to it being coded. I've actually never encountered anyone in the game who has ever RPed out virtually smoking or doing spice, without actually smoking or doing spice.

I know people hate the MUD vs MUSH comparison. But what you're suggesting is a very MUSH thing, and I think a lot of people aren't as attracted to that aspect of pure pretense found in MUSHes as some others.

[Alesan]

It's not done virtually for the same reason most people don't "pretend drugs" with anything other than what is coded. People want coded support because we play a MUD, not a MUSH. I can appreciate the desire to have us RP out more things that aren't necessarily in the game, but sometimes there's a limit as to what can truly become a cultural trend when you pit code versus RP.

And maybe the general effects of spice need to go up if not enough people are wanting to partake in it. It should be desired as the powerful drug it is, if it is indeed as powerful and addictive as it supposedly is.

I can understand the idea behind not wanting to give any benefits to being Spice Addicted(tm), because addiction is an affliction. Instead, bump up the benefits to using spice in general. You'll probably see more addicts that way.

[Mordiggian]

Also, I just suddenly thought of the Soy Sauce, for anyone who's read a certain book.

Amos dies at the end.

totally did not click modify instead of quote

[Zerero]

The coded effects of current spice are indeed very powerful, but expensive. I would support a new 'strand' of spice that's much cheaper and more flavorful/roleplay-oriented in terms of being sensual, provoking new thinks/feels and psionic abilities. This in turn would allow addicts to effectively roleplay being... well, addicts and at the same time encourage more RP/plotlines for smugglers and militia. And nobles/pirates/warriors could still gorge themselves on the stat-boosting and rather expensive spice that's in the gameworld today.

Just my thoughts.

[Case]

It could be made to last a lot longer (when refined)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd probably aim some spice at merchant/aide types. Spices that heightened perceptive talents (listen, scan, hunt) and ones that affected your awareness of self (hide, sneak) would appeal to plenty of people who might otherwise not bother. A spice that made you more accurate would be appealing, and for people who are struggling to max combat skills, a spice that slowed you down and made you more likely to fail in combat would be appealing too. A spice that temporarily added 25 pts to crafting skills (though you could not mastercraft off the affects if you were not already a master) would be very appealing to Merchants and Crafters, as it would allow less failing when using valuable materials.

The key to making spice addictive,  because you want to use it, is to make it useful across the gamut of character types, from combatant to non-combatant. A secondary key to making it addictive and worth the risk is to fix Allanak. Nobody should be killed by NPC soldiers for carrying spice.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I like the idea of the psionic spice. Maybe not to the level of being able to hear thinks, but if it made you pick up some errant feels that would be neat.

If you decide you permanently want the positives without waiting for the negatives to wear off, you're addicted.  That's the incentive for addiction.

For the record, I understood and basically agree with this. He was talking about normal addiction motives, not the actual addiction code (which, as I understand it, is next to impossible to actually trigger anyways.) For example, if you were playing a warrior who used war spice to buff himself during battles or what-not. He snorts a grain or two before a fight, then proceeds to fight the fight. Now, back at HQ he's either got to sit through a long-ass withdrawal in which he's too weak to wear his own armor for training or whatnot. Or he can take a grain or two to ease the effects. This is a mild effect and is totally negated by simply waiting it out, but I don't think it's unheard of. I know I had a particularly weak combat character once who would use spice to get an edge in fights, and it snowballed into a thing where I was practically glued to the floor if I let myself come down. Because of the characters circumstances, waiting it out wasn't really an option, so he was an addict without triggering the actual addiction code.


Addiction and psionic spice aside, can we get a fucking price reduction already? I have to believe that the real reason we don't see spice addicts is the cost. At 150 sid per grain even nobles would have a hard time being addicted to spice. Spoiler alert for those who haven't played in Red Storm, but Kurac pays sifters 2 sid per grain for that shit. There's no reason that it can't got for 15-25 sid per grain unprocessed, or like 50-60 processed. As it is, only nobles can (realistically) afford to buy from Kurac on a regular basis. So, they've got the market cornered. The market of like 100 potential buyers world-wide who can afford their product. Meanwhile, every PC who who partakes in Spice on a regular basis (including quite a few nobles I've known) get it from a non-Kuraci source!

And don't say that transporting it halfway across the Known is the reason. They have argosies capable of moving several tons of it at a time, and a standing army capable of guarding that argosy. Their teamster fee is basically a few Fist salaries plus stabling fees on some inix / beetles.

[OldestBiff]

PSA for the readership:

A lot of the stuff being posted about spice in this thread is incorrect or inaccurate.  Find out IC.

[Clearsighted]

PSA for the readership:

A lot of the stuff being posted about spice in this thread is incorrect or inaccurate.  Find out IC.

If you mind, do you want to message me about what's so inaccurate? Because I have found out ICly, at length. And quite a few other people have too. So this seems like a post designed to trip up newbies, more than actually contribute to the discussion. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there's some misunderstanding.

Not that it entirely matters. Nothing about spice's current coded effects is actually that relevant to the question. Since whatever those coded effects are, they don't seem to be unlocking the rich potential of spice-related RP, such as creating incentive for a meaningful smuggling culture.

[Dakota]

doing copious amounts of spice makes you cooler. this is a fact.

[Harmless]

Have they made it so spice effects wear off when logged out yet?

Until they do that, spice addiction is unplayable/unrealistic for me.

Also, I wish spice effects were way more unpredictable. There should be a chance for spice to be particularly strong -- it also happens in the real world with illicit drugs -- or to be dull and weak, or even to mildly poison you. I want to see more spiceheads get a "bad batch" of spice and puke up on the street, giving away their addiction, rather than the one giveaway being a certain command anyone in the room can do to them.

If there were a small chance for spice hits to permanently increase or alter a stat, that'd be badass. Personally i think this should start with methelinoc.

[MeTekillot]

Spice effects stay active between logins. I'm pretty sure alcohol sobering code was like specially coded as it's own global timer probably.

[Harmless]

Spice effects stay active between logins. I'm pretty sure alcohol sobering code was like specially coded as it's own global timer probably.

This is part of why when I play characters who regularly use spice at all that I end up with negative addiction effects VERY rapidly. I am the kind of player who sparsely logs in. I had made a thread about the negative effects of spice piling on too quickly to make sense and in that thread, Nyr posted this:

I see what you mean now...the lack of effects being reduced offline can be confusing, seeing as how the outlier is alcohol (after 2008).  I'll discuss with some coding staff to see what improvements could be made to spice, but keep in mind that any changes for playability may include changes that retain like-to-like detriments (and perhaps changes to documentation).

Since then, I've been eagerly watching the news for any changes to spice code, and as soon as I see signs of some changes I'll re-pursue spice addiction as a concept. Until then, it isn't very playable for my playtimes.