The 9 Benefits of Encouraging Spice Addiction

[Clearsighted]

There's pretty much no reason why anyone in the game should ever get addicted to spice. It's supposed to be this prevalent drug that is so dangerous and addictive, that even Allanak bans it. It is supposed to have this incredible allure. But it simply isn't the case in game. Even someone that RPs as enjoying spice, can smoke it all they want socially, (more or less), without risking addiction.

Essentially, I think that at high enough levels of spice addiction, characters should acquire a mild form of the weakest psionic abilities. Namely, the ability to perceive some 'thinks' and 'feels' from those that are in the room with them.

I think spice needs a mild coded incentive for people to get over-dependent on, and to make it a good coin-sink.  It would have the beneficial side effect of helping out the economy.

Benefits:

1. There are a lot of amazing 'thinks' and 'feels' that most PCs never get to see.

2. It would only work on those you're in a room with, and only while you're on spice.

3. Everybody in Allanak already possesses low-grade psionic ability. It makes perfect sense for some drugs to temporarily heighten it.

4. It would give wealthy PCs something to spend their sids on, and give other PCs a better incentive to go broke trying to support the habit.

5. Since Allanak is now the major city, and there is no spice allowed in Allanak, it would create more RP for militia and smugglers.

6. Spice addiction is dangerous, and there'll be more RP surrounding it. Such as nobles who can afford to indulge.

7. I think it is characterful, and creates a bit of a gap between the haves and have-nots. A noble/house agent/templar etc can more likely get away with spice addiction, whereas some rich indy can't.

8. Might 'inject' some more life into the 'rinth as well.

9. It wouldn't be overpowering, but at the same time, I think the ability to hear thoughts/feels while spice addicted and high, would be enough of an allure for the novelty of the experience to encourage a lot of people to both ICly and OOCly want to partake in it.

PERSONAL REQUEST: Please don't regale us with how your poor rinthi or decadent noble didn't need any coded incentive to RP out spice addiction. Good for you. What I want to do is make it more meaningful and attractive to the majority of players.

[Synthesis]

Spice already has positive effects.  Withdrawal already has negative effects.  It's already a good coin-sink, if you're not foraging your own.

[Clearsighted]

Spice already has positive effects.  Withdrawal already has negative effects.  It's already a good coin-sink, if you're not foraging your own.

1) Spice's current positive effects do NOT encourage addiction. They are simply temporary stat increases and a few obscure coded things. You can get all the stat boosts you want from spice, when you need them, without being addicted.

2) This isn't about Spice's negative withdrawal effects. Although, I'll note that the penalty of spice addiction is crippling far past the benefit of taking spice. There's literally no reason to get spice addicted and to suffer the crippling effects.

I must say that I am disappointed by your rush to immediately jump to the contrary position. Because my post isn't even about spice effects. It's about Spice Addiction and giving people a reason to become Spice Addicted.

The positives you referenced have nothing to do with Spice Addiction, and can be fully realized without being addicted. A mild ability to sense feels or thinks in a room, is I think, a worthy side-effect of going to the trouble of becoming addicted, given the crippling effects of withdrawal.

[Synthesis]

If you decide you permanently want the positives without waiting for the negatives to wear off, you're addicted.  That's the incentive for addiction.

[Clearsighted]

If you decide you permanently want the positives without waiting for the negatives to wear off, you're addicted.  That's the incentive for addiction.

You have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't about the immediate effects of any particular spice. And your 'incentive' for addiction is beyond stupid. It's borderline insulting to anyone that knows anything about the way spice works.

Nobody in their right mind thinks or behaves that way, unless they're screwing themselves over on purpose. You can get all the benefits you like out of stat spice, when you need it, without risking addiction.

Beyond that, what you're referencing, only applies to a small handful of spices that give any coded stat boost at all, like war spice, etc. Most spices don't give a stat effect.

I'll say it for the last time. I'm referencing specifically the state of Spice Addiction. And giving it a real, coded benefit. Not the made-up-on-the-spot BS Synthesis reason, that nobody would actually think is a good reason.

I've registered your incoherent, condescending disagreement. Thanks!

[valeria]

The amount of "consequences-less" spices are a lot less prevalent than the op would lead you to believe.  Spice addiction sucks.  And it should imo. I wouldn't approve of adding benefits to any addiction.

[Synthesis]

Uh, whatever, man.

^That was condescending.

Most people don't regularly use spice because:

a) piss-poor stats are really difficult to roll, with stat-prioritizing, reroll, and reroll undo
b) it's expensive, and you have to KEEP GRINDING THAT GRIND if you want to keep using it
c) the benefits aren't that great unless you're snorting like a large worth all at once (with the exception of one type, granted)
d) it's a pain in the ass to get it and keep it if you live in Allanak
e) even if you can get it and keep it in Allanak, you constantly run the risk of being arrested or fined for having it

People will always min-max it.  Your idea simply alters the min-maxing equation so that tavern-sitters have a reason to use it...which is maybe a good idea for a new type of spice, but not to alter all types.

That being said...the only time I ever regularly use it is when I have a PC with a shitload of 'sid to blow.  The only time I -regularly- used it was with a city-elf with poor strength, because otherwise I couldn't barely graze my way out of a paper bag.

[Clearsighted]

The amount of "consequences-less" spices are a lot less prevalent than the op would lead you to believe.  Spice addiction sucks.  And it should imo. I wouldn't approve of adding benefits to any addiction.

I have never posted anything about spice addiction not sucking. Spice addiction does suck. It sucks so badly that there is zero reason whatsoever for anyone to ever become spice addicted without doing so to deliberately sabotage their character.

I simply don't like the the status quo where a drug which is supposed to be hyper-addictive and alluring, to the point of retaining such a dangerous hold over the VNPC population that Allanak considers its a serious death-penalty threat, should be so easily ignored by the PCs.

Giving some mild, RP-ish incentive, like sensing thinks or feels, to the spice addicted, would seem to give both a flavorful reason to seek it out, and a good reason why the Militia might want to crack down on it.

Uh, whatever, man.

^That was condescending.

Most people don't regularly use spice because:

a) piss-poor stats are really difficult to roll, with stat-prioritizing, reroll, and reroll undo
b) it's expensive, and you have to KEEP GRINDING THAT GRIND if you want to keep using it
c) the benefits aren't that great unless you're snorting like a large worth all at once (with the exception of one type, granted)
d) it's a pain in the ass to get it and keep it if you live in Allanak
e) even if you can get it and keep it in Allanak, you constantly run the risk of being arrested or fined for having it

People will always min-max it.  Your idea simply alters the min-maxing equation so that tavern-sitters have a reason to use it...which is maybe a good idea for a new type of spice, but not to alter all types.

That being said...the only time I ever regularly use it is when I have a PC with a shitload of 'sid to blow.  The only time I -regularly- used it was with a city-elf with poor strength, because otherwise I couldn't barely graze my way out of a paper bag.

See. This is a constructive post. Thanks, Synthesis. I agree on several of these points, and it's why I posted.

[wizturbo]

It's a roleplaying game...  The benefits of spice addiction are more interesting roleplaying situations.

If you need a tangible benefit, I guarantee you a well played addict is going to get staff attention, which means you might score some karma...  /shrug

[Alesan]

Why aren't there more vices in general? Allanak just has booze, unless people are willing to risk the consequences of law breaking. I'm all for more ways to spend all that sid you people are always complaining about.

Considering most of the player population is concentrated in Allanak, I'd think there'd be other things people are making habits of if they can't have spice.

[Synthesis]

shoot up with scorpions and trip balls in the gaj

[Alesan]

That is an option. An extreme option, but an option nonetheless.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really like this idea. Psionics are outlawed so severely that Allanak's ban on spice would make far more sense, given the new 'powers' of spice addicts, while Tuluk may have tolerated it given their own leaders' rumored gifts being heightened.

It makes IC sense. It offers OOC fun. I'm so for it.

[Alesan]

Also, I just suddenly thought of the Soy Sauce, for anyone who's read a certain book.

[Drayab]

I kind of like the current level of high-fantasy elements like psionics and magic in the game. They exist, but you rarely encounter them if you're a mundane (not counting contact and barrier). So, I am kind of 'meh' about adding psionic enhancements to what spice does for you.

In my estimation, I think the benefits of spice are pretty good right now, but the problem is that the risks of possessing it are just too great for anybody that intends on going to Allanak. On the one hand, I know that if I were caught by a PC templar, I could probably get out of it alive with sufficient groveling and bribing, but I like my character and ultimately they can decide to kill me if they want to. I'd rather not give them a reason. I don't like being at the mercy of PC capriciousness. And of course with the NPC enforcers, I might just get dog-piled, no questions asked if I forget to dump the stash before walking in the gates.

Does the ban on spice really add that much to the game? Personally, I'd like to see the ban gone. I bet you'd see more spice usage in its place. Spice addicts were still rare in the north, but I came across them occasionally. I bet the south would have even more spice addicts because the south has a more gritty atmosphere, is more conducive to those types of roles.

Edit: After thinking about it for a few minutes, it might be enough to just do away with the NPC shakedown at the gate and leave the illegality in place as a ripe target for PC enforcers to impose fines/bribes.

[John]

If you make spice illegal then you remove yet another avenue for there to be criminals in the game. We saw it with Tuluk where thievery, assassinations and spice were all legal.

I would rather see the severity of spice reduced. Rather than having NPCs insta-kill you, why not just have them confiscate it instead? Corruption is suppose to be rampant, what can be more corrupt than taking spice for being illegal and then keeping it for your own personal use (or to sell it to criminals?)

[valeria]

The thing is, you already get a benefit from spice addiction. You get whatever benefit is that your spice gives you... as long as you keep using it. My only beef with spice addiction as how quickly it ramps up.

[Riev]

The one argument here that I don't think is helpful, is that "addiction is an RP thing" (nothing against you, Turbo). One major issue I've had in the past, is that even though I could smuggle in spice WITHOUT the use of some high-magick situation, and it was cheap, I was told either that "We have all we need, we just smuggle it in on our argosy" (to any staff that say they don't know, thats fine, but back then none of you cared) or "Why would I want to smoke that?".

End of it all, Tho is an RP spice that people equate to weed, but its not very addictive. Warspices can get addictive but most treat them like CERTAIN_NORTHRON_CLAN and use them only when the situation arises. It sounds like Clearsighted is just looking for ways to make the risk vs benefit worthwhile, more than "a 15minute +2 to strength" buff.


For the record, I'm on board for one of the mind-spices to either make people slight empaths (... ehh) or make them THINK they are empaths by giving various echoes of what someone in the room is feeling.

[Synthesis]

End of it all, Tho is an RP spice that people equate to weed, but its not very addictive.

Uh, what?  The addiction code on Thodeliv sucks MASSIVE DONKEY BALLS and will cripple your PC.  Are you trying to say that there isn't any reason (aside from RP) that someone would smoke that much?  I suppose I could agree with that, because I've never seen (or heard of) any overt coded benefit to using it.

Thodeliv is not weed.  It's more like heroin (at least).

[Chettaman]

I just want to say that addiction is easy to explain. But to the addicted, it's just torture. They know exactly why they're doing what they do. Or maybe they don't. Despite that, they're going to do it unless they decide not to. ... but why wouldn't they? No one would know. It wouldn't matter anyway. Right and it's the last time, no doubt. You're not hurting anyone by doing it. And you can handle it. You've handled it before. Just one more time and then I'll go right back to my kids.

Ya know what. I think if spice addiction is a code, it should happen more often.

[Narf]

For the record, I'm on board for one of the mind-spices to either make people slight empaths (... ehh) or make them THINK they are empaths by giving various echoes of what someone in the room is feeling.

This would be fun. Spice giving Discount Bin versions of psychic abilities?

Like reading people's mind through an apprentice/journeyman language filter, empathy that associates emotions to random people in the room rather than their originator, or the ability to randomly pick up way conversation snippets from around the area.

[Clearsighted]

The thing is, you already get a benefit from spice addiction. You get whatever benefit is that your spice gives you... as long as you keep using it. My only beef with spice addiction as how quickly it ramps up.

I really think this argument is a non-starter, and more or less irrelevant to the discussion.

Because what you're describing is not a benefit from spice addiction. It's the benefit of using (some) kinds of spice. Most of which don't give a stat benefit, or any significant benefit at all.

No one in their right mind, unless they were deliberately sabotaging their characters for RP purposes, would use the stat spice so often as to get Spice Addiction from it. Considering the horrible side-effects of withdrawal. One or two anecdotes of desperate, poor strength elves aside.

So your assertion, which is aimed at the current benefits or side-effects of spice, doesn't really have any relation. Because whatever those benefits or side-effects are, they're clearly keeping rates of spice addiction vastly lower among the PC population than the VNPC. Despite the PCs having the most sids to indulge in spice. That makes it feel like something is off. Fundamentally, the OOC status quo is not aligning the game's population with IC expectations.

My idea is aimed at the fact that it's very easy to avoid spice addiction and incredibly beneficial to do so. Despite the fact that it is as dangerous as heroin. What I'd like to see is a flavorful and low-key way to encourage addiction. I think my idea was pretty good. Do you think having Apprentice/Journey think/feel sense while addicted and high on tho, wouldn't be fun or would harm the game?

The alternative, is as turbo suggests, to pretend otherwise in game. But personally, I think that suggestion sucks, when a coded tweak is both relatively easy, more flavorful, and more fun for the majority of people who aren't as good at pretending as turbo.

[RogueGunslinger]

Every time I wanted to make a spicer who was addicted I couldn't, because the type of characters that would do that couldn't afford it, or the illegality of spice would deter them.

So my suggestion is to only make some of the spices illegal, like war spices and Tho. And make use of others just heavily frowned upon.

[whitt]

Do you think having Apprentice/Journey think/feel sense while addicted and high on tho, wouldn't be fun or would harm the game?

I personally think it would harm the game. 

If this works for PCs, it would work for NPCs as well.  Enter the spice-addicted NPCs that are just posted about the Gaj, and they don't get their next dose from Noble/Merchant/Templar until they come back with some juicy tidbit that likely costs a character their status, plot, life.

Players, knowing that their thoughts are now open to interception, stop using thinks unless they want that think known to others.  The characters don't think anyless, the think-code just gets conveniently not used.

Suddenly there is a huge incentive to be spice addicted, you have access to information no one else should and you'll (oddly) be protected because you're an addict instead of being shunned having such a disgusting habit. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If spice had a chance of offering you new permanent skill branches, or permanently increasing stats, or randomly opening temporary magical or psionic abilities, or permenantly raising skill levels, but then carried a need to partake in order to not be crippled, I could see it encouraging addiction.

[Clearsighted]

Do you think having Apprentice/Journey think/feel sense while addicted and high on tho, wouldn't be fun or would harm the game?

I personally think it would harm the game. 

If this works for PCs, it would work for NPCs as well.  Enter the spice-addicted NPCs that are just posted about the Gaj, and they don't get their next dose from Noble/Merchant/Templar until they come back with some juicy tidbit that likely costs a character their status, plot, life.

Players, knowing that their thoughts are now open to interception, stop using thinks unless they want that think known to others.  The characters don't think anyless, the think-code just gets conveniently not used.

Suddenly there is a huge incentive to be spice addicted, you have access to information no one else should and you'll (oddly) be protected because you're an addict instead of being shunned having such a disgusting habit. 

1) Your 'drawback', vis a vis the NPCs, sounds more interesting than the status quo. Good thinking!
2) It's very expensive, once spice addicted, to maintain the habit. Your average NPC is screwed. Unless there's a shadow economy in Allanak catering just to them.
3) Who regularly smokes spice in the Gaj? It's Militia Central.
4) Most PCs just don't use thinks or feels - period. Those that do, I'm sure wouldn't mind having them be witnessed by someone.
5) As someone else already posted, at low-level apprentice/journeyman type receptivity, it could emanate from random people, without being pinpoint accurate or consistent.
6) An incentive to be spice-addicted is cool. If you have ever been spice addicted, or dealt with serious spice withdrawl, you should know how horrible it is to be.

[Desertman]

I like the idea of spice giving more beneficial and possibility even supernatural type abilities.

I like the idea of giving people more of a reason to do spice.

I would like to add in the idea that extremely high-quality versions of the spices that already exist in game might give you extra "good stuff" that normal quality stuff doesn't give you, and would even give you less/no negative side effects later, even to the point of addiction, so long as you kept up your now extremely expensive spice habit with your high quality spice.....if you can maintain, you are good to go with all of the benefits...if you start being able to not maintain, you quickly take huge negatives and side effects until you can get back on the pony, or you finally after a long time get over your addiction to that extra dank herb. (I'm not sure if I used that right. I don't know about dope things.)

If you are filthy rich and can afford that high quality herb, you are fine, but how long can you keep affording it?

In my mind that should be the game with spice.

If you are smoking the low-quality stuff, you get the same sort of "effects" you get now. I would even go so far as to say the stuff we have now at its current prices would even be just fine to consider the "normal/low quality stuff.".


The super high end stuff that gives you all of the special badass perks and keeps you from having negatives so long as you keep up your addiction? Five or ten times more expensive.

Psionic benefits? Sure.
Boosted stats? Sure.
Increased maximum HP/Stamina/Stun/Mana? Sure.
Bumps to certain skills even beyond master level if you are smoking enough high quality spice and can keep it up? Absolutely.

And of course, the longer you smoke it, the more addicted you get, but also, the longer you smoke it, the more of a chance you have of possibly unlocking "new spice related abilities". The longer you can maintain your addiction, and the more addicted you become, the more powerful you can become.....but only so long as you keep up with your habit and keep forking over that mad cash.

Better hope your supplier keeps supplying and you somehow keep affording it though.

I would even like the idea that if you got ultra-high-end addicted, that there would never be any way to get off of it without death...either you maintain at that point, or you die from your addiction.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And ... it's illegal.

Seriously, this recreates spice, really makes it that thing in the shadows that drags people down into the gutter once they can't have it, but puts them in the clouds when they can afford/kill for/steal it. I'm really with this idea. It's both playable oocly, and absolutely explains addiction.

[Synthesis]

I like the idea of spice giving more beneficial and possibility even supernatural type abilities.

I like the idea of giving people more of a reason to do spice.

I would like to add in the idea that extremely high-quality versions of the spices that already exist in game might give you extra "good stuff" that normal quality stuff doesn't give you, and would even give you less/no negative side effects later, even to the point of addiction, so long as you kept up your now extremely expensive spice habit with your high quality spice.....if you can maintain, you are good to go with all of the benefits...if you start being able to not maintain, you quickly take huge negatives and side effects until you can get back on the pony, or you finally after a long time get over your addiction to that extra dank herb. (I'm not sure if I used that right. I don't know about dope things.)

If you are filthy rich and can afford that high quality herb, you are fine, but how long can you keep affording it?

In my mind that should be the game with spice.

If you are smoking the low-quality stuff, you get the same sort of "effects" you get now. I would even go so far as to say the stuff we have now at its current prices would even be just fine to consider the "normal/low quality stuff.".


The super high end stuff that gives you all of the special badass perks and keeps you from having negatives so long as you keep up your addiction? Five or ten times more expensive.

Psionic benefits? Sure.
Boosted stats? Sure.
Increased maximum HP/Stamina/Stun/Mana? Sure.
Bumps to certain skills even beyond master level if you are smoking enough high quality spice and can keep it up? Absolutely.

And of course, the longer you smoke it, the more addicted you get, but also, the longer you smoke it, the more of a chance you have of possibly unlocking "new spice related abilities". The longer you can maintain your addiction, and the more addicted you become, the more powerful you can become.....but only so long as you keep up with your habit and keep forking over that mad cash.

Better hope your supplier keeps supplying and you somehow keep affording it though.

I would even like the idea that if you got ultra-high-end addicted, that there would never be any way to get off of it without death...either you maintain at that point, or you die from your addiction.

[James de Monet]

Clearsighted, it seems like your base argument is: 'the docs say tons of people are addicted to spice, but almost no PCs are.'

Okay, I get that.  But I'm not sure incentivizing addiction is the way to achieve docs adherence.  Isn't that kind of backward?  Do people get addicted in real life for the perks?  I think they mostly get addicted because they want the high so badly.  That's a perk of the drugs, not of addiction.  Addiction is a side-effect of seeking that high.  In fact, repeated usage has diminishing effects on the high received (go-go Synthesis biology lesson?).

It works the same in game, it's just very hard to incentivize people based on physical sensations (ecstasy, pain, etc) in a text-based medium, because no one actually feels any of those things.  It's like a society full of people with nerve damage.

That being said, you see a little defensive about people approaching your idea critically.  Just because people aren't instantly convinced doesn't mean it's a bad idea.  I think its a very interesting idea in its own right, even apart from considerations about addiction.  I think you might be overestimating the simplicity of coding such a thing, however.

[Clearsighted]

Clearsighted, it seems like your base argument is: 'the docs say tons of people are addicted to spice, but almost no PCs are.'

Okay, I get that.  But I'm not sure incentivizing addiction is the way to achieve docs adherence.  Isn't that kind of backward?  Do people get addicted in real life for the perks?

I think they do. It's just that in a text mud game, it's harder to make 'perks' vs say, what we seek in real life.

You could not do any coded perks, and as turbo said, just RP-pretend around it. But that would still leave PCs out of seeming consonance with the rest of the VNPC/NPC population.

Maybe there are ideas better than mine. I don't know. What I'd like to see is spice be as scary tempting/addictive to PCs as it is to the virtual population, and not something easily skirted/avoided. Historically, in order to achieve something like this, it required at least a little positives thrown in - as opposed to the completely crippling and horrible nature of spice addiction currently. Which is best avoided, except in cases of suicide, self-sabotage, or fantastic RPers.

I'd like to see a change that shifted the status quo among PCs closer to what the docs claim is reality.

That being said, you see a little defensive about people approaching your idea critically.  Just because people aren't instantly convinced doesn't mean it's a bad idea.  I think its a very interesting idea in its own right, even apart from considerations about addiction.  I think you might be overestimating the simplicity of coding such a thing, however.

Only thing I'm annoyed by is some people conflating the statted beneficial effects of some spice with the reality of spice addiction. It's just a smokescreen (pun intended).

Sure. You can smoke war spice every 15 minutes, and have the statted benefits all the time. But that's not a Spice Addiction-related benefit. That's just someone smoking a lot of war spice (a suicidal amount, given its cost vs withdrawal).

I don't care about the current effects or non-effects of different kinds of spice. All I care about is making Spice Addiction be a stage that any PC would rationally seek out.

So it feels like when people continually bring up the effects of spice in general, it feels like it is distracting from the actual point of the conversation. That's a little frustrating.

I hope that's understandable.

[John]

One of the biggest problems with spice is that your avrage Allanaki PC needs to rely on PCs to get spice. Imagine how unusable the game would be if you had to rely on PCs to get weapons or else you were forced to go into the Labyrinth, Red Storm or Luirs Outpost to get the weapons. The number of people making combat oriented characters would drop off dramatically. And yet that's the situation spice is in.

I think we need an NPC who is an open secret and outrageously bribes the Templarate so that they can sell spice. Put it at a significant markup to other sources so that enterprising characters can get a cheaper supply and still sell spice to PCs.

[Clearsighted]

One of the biggest problems with spice is that your avrage Allanaki PC needs to rely on PCs to get spice. Imagine how unusable the game would be if you had to rely on PCs to get weapons or else you were forced to go into the Labyrinth, Red Storm or Luirs Outpost to get the weapons. The number of people making combat oriented characters would drop off dramatically. And yet that's the situation spice is in.

I think we need an NPC who is an open secret and outrageously bribes the Templarate so that they can sell spice. Put it at a significant markup to other sources so that enterprising characters can get a cheaper supply and still sell spice to PCs.

There's currently no real spice-smuggling RP existing, as is. So I don't really find it helpful or realistic to introduce an NPC to automatically fulfill one's spice needs, the moment that people might actually start seeking out PC smugglers. It would kill all the RP/conflict that the change hoped to engender.

Beyond that, the 'rinth, Red Storm, and Luir's Outpost owe their primary existence to the spice trade. So making people be able to avoid going there, to get their smuggled spice, seems misguided as well. The 'rinth isn't that far away after all, and basically, the very same NPC you want already exists there.

It'd be nice if rinthers could actually make a profit running spice into and out of the 'rinth, and the Militia had to deal with it.

[John]

We've had the current status quo for many, many years. Tuluk did see spice addicts. How many spice addicts do you think there have been in Allanak for the past five years? Also you try taking your average nakkie into the 'rinth and tell me how long they'll survive (hint: not very long and it's not just the PCs you have to worry about).

[ibusoe]

I actually like this idea, although I feel the same as several other of the senior twinks that implementation would be dicey.

I tend to feel that you're operating under spurious logic, though.  

Putting some thought into this, I quickly realized that more spice-doing could be completely virtual.  If you were that into spice, you could simply smoke it virtually, and then role play out in game (for the benefit of other players) the nasty side effects of addiction.  

So why aren't people doing this?  It would seem that most of the players don't want to play spice addicts.  The people who are into the spice scene seem to play social spice users.

I think if you really wanted to encourage people to play spice heads, you probably should just submit some fanfiction that makes spice addiction seem cool.  Remember Requiem for a Dream?  I kind of thought that movie was stupid, but it did have the effect of kind of making people want to do drugs.

Your mileage may vary.

[James de Monet]

I don't care about the current effects or non-effects of different kinds of spice. All I care about is making Spice Addiction be a stage that any PC would rationally seek out.

So it feels like when people continually bring up the effects of spice in general, it feels like it is distracting from the actual point of the conversation. That's a little frustrating.

I hope that's understandable.

Sure, it's understandable, but I don't think they are intentionally trying to detract from your point. I think they're confused about the concept of 'benefits of addiction'.  I'm not sure that's a thing, which might be why people find it confusing.

For example, in RL, people don't say "let's go get addicted to THC."  But they might say "smoke weed erryday."  It is the use, and not the addiction, which provides benefits.  That's what people were trying to say about the game as well. It is the use of spice, not the addiction to it, which should confer benefits.  Addiction is a negative side-effect that occurs when you use drugs to experience the benefits.

I think we might all have a clearer understanding of your idea if you can relate what you think the RL benefits of drug addiction are (as compared to the benefits of drug use).

If you aren't trying to draw RL parallels, that's fine, but I think that's where people are getting hung up.

[Olafson]

Note:  I haven't really read the entire thread, but here are my two cents anyways.

Having played a spice addict recently (not really of their choice), I have to say that the addiction code kicks ass, but is very hard.

The easiest way to encourage more spice addicts?  Lower the price so everyone can use it and the average citizen can afford it.

Everyone should encourage it to become part of the "party" scene.

Peer pressure!  Look down on those who nay say it.

More of the "authorities" need to look the other way for spice code as well, long as they get a pinch.

This happens at the upper end, but not enough at the lower end.

More corruption!

Players can make this happen, just make spice cheaper.

[Clearsighted]

I don't care about the current effects or non-effects of different kinds of spice. All I care about is making Spice Addiction be a stage that any PC would rationally seek out.

So it feels like when people continually bring up the effects of spice in general, it feels like it is distracting from the actual point of the conversation. That's a little frustrating.

I hope that's understandable.

Sure, it's understandable, but I don't think they are intentionally trying to detract from your point. I think they're confused about the concept of 'benefits of addiction'.  I'm not sure that's a thing, which might be why people find it confusing.

For example, in RL, people don't say "let's go get addicted to THC."  But they might say "smoke weed erryday."  It is the use, and not the addiction, which provides benefits.  That's what people were trying to say about the game as well. It is the use of spice, not the addiction to it, which should confer benefits.  Addiction is a negative side-effect that occurs when you use drugs to experience the benefits.

I think we might all have a clearer understanding of your idea if you can relate what you think the RL benefits of drug addiction are (as compared to the benefits of drug use).

If you aren't trying to draw RL parallels, that's fine, but I think that's where people are getting hung up.

Has nothing to do with RL addiction or parallels. It has to do with creating new avenues of RP and conflict, in what is currently a major aspect of the game setting (spice, its trade, smuggling, illegality and various effects on its users) that feels underutilized.

The only RL parallel to be drawn is that IRL, we are far more motivated by pleasure, than we are in a game. So sometimes, inventive ways are needed to get around that, to make illicit substances equally as exciting when encountered in different contexts.

Putting some thought into this, I quickly realized that more spice-doing could be completely virtual.  If you were that into spice, you could simply smoke it virtually, and then role play out in game (for the benefit of other players) the nasty side effects of addiction.  

So why aren't people doing this?  It would seem that most of the players don't want to play spice addicts.  The people who are into the spice scene seem to play social spice users.

My suspicion is that more people aren't doing it, because it's not as fun, compared to it being coded. I've actually never encountered anyone in the game who has ever RPed out virtually smoking or doing spice, without actually smoking or doing spice.

I know people hate the MUD vs MUSH comparison. But what you're suggesting is a very MUSH thing, and I think a lot of people aren't as attracted to that aspect of pure pretense found in MUSHes as some others.

[Alesan]

It's not done virtually for the same reason most people don't "pretend drugs" with anything other than what is coded. People want coded support because we play a MUD, not a MUSH. I can appreciate the desire to have us RP out more things that aren't necessarily in the game, but sometimes there's a limit as to what can truly become a cultural trend when you pit code versus RP.

And maybe the general effects of spice need to go up if not enough people are wanting to partake in it. It should be desired as the powerful drug it is, if it is indeed as powerful and addictive as it supposedly is.

I can understand the idea behind not wanting to give any benefits to being Spice Addicted(tm), because addiction is an affliction. Instead, bump up the benefits to using spice in general. You'll probably see more addicts that way.

[Mordiggian]

Also, I just suddenly thought of the Soy Sauce, for anyone who's read a certain book.

Amos dies at the end.

totally did not click modify instead of quote

[Zerero]

The coded effects of current spice are indeed very powerful, but expensive. I would support a new 'strand' of spice that's much cheaper and more flavorful/roleplay-oriented in terms of being sensual, provoking new thinks/feels and psionic abilities. This in turn would allow addicts to effectively roleplay being... well, addicts and at the same time encourage more RP/plotlines for smugglers and militia. And nobles/pirates/warriors could still gorge themselves on the stat-boosting and rather expensive spice that's in the gameworld today.

Just my thoughts.

[Case]

It could be made to last a lot longer (when refined)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd probably aim some spice at merchant/aide types. Spices that heightened perceptive talents (listen, scan, hunt) and ones that affected your awareness of self (hide, sneak) would appeal to plenty of people who might otherwise not bother. A spice that made you more accurate would be appealing, and for people who are struggling to max combat skills, a spice that slowed you down and made you more likely to fail in combat would be appealing too. A spice that temporarily added 25 pts to crafting skills (though you could not mastercraft off the affects if you were not already a master) would be very appealing to Merchants and Crafters, as it would allow less failing when using valuable materials.

The key to making spice addictive,  because you want to use it, is to make it useful across the gamut of character types, from combatant to non-combatant. A secondary key to making it addictive and worth the risk is to fix Allanak. Nobody should be killed by NPC soldiers for carrying spice.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I like the idea of the psionic spice. Maybe not to the level of being able to hear thinks, but if it made you pick up some errant feels that would be neat.

If you decide you permanently want the positives without waiting for the negatives to wear off, you're addicted.  That's the incentive for addiction.

For the record, I understood and basically agree with this. He was talking about normal addiction motives, not the actual addiction code (which, as I understand it, is next to impossible to actually trigger anyways.) For example, if you were playing a warrior who used war spice to buff himself during battles or what-not. He snorts a grain or two before a fight, then proceeds to fight the fight. Now, back at HQ he's either got to sit through a long-ass withdrawal in which he's too weak to wear his own armor for training or whatnot. Or he can take a grain or two to ease the effects. This is a mild effect and is totally negated by simply waiting it out, but I don't think it's unheard of. I know I had a particularly weak combat character once who would use spice to get an edge in fights, and it snowballed into a thing where I was practically glued to the floor if I let myself come down. Because of the characters circumstances, waiting it out wasn't really an option, so he was an addict without triggering the actual addiction code.


Addiction and psionic spice aside, can we get a fucking price reduction already? I have to believe that the real reason we don't see spice addicts is the cost. At 150 sid per grain even nobles would have a hard time being addicted to spice. Spoiler alert for those who haven't played in Red Storm, but Kurac pays sifters 2 sid per grain for that shit. There's no reason that it can't got for 15-25 sid per grain unprocessed, or like 50-60 processed. As it is, only nobles can (realistically) afford to buy from Kurac on a regular basis. So, they've got the market cornered. The market of like 100 potential buyers world-wide who can afford their product. Meanwhile, every PC who who partakes in Spice on a regular basis (including quite a few nobles I've known) get it from a non-Kuraci source!

And don't say that transporting it halfway across the Known is the reason. They have argosies capable of moving several tons of it at a time, and a standing army capable of guarding that argosy. Their teamster fee is basically a few Fist salaries plus stabling fees on some inix / beetles.

[OldestBiff]

PSA for the readership:

A lot of the stuff being posted about spice in this thread is incorrect or inaccurate.  Find out IC.

[Clearsighted]

PSA for the readership:

A lot of the stuff being posted about spice in this thread is incorrect or inaccurate.  Find out IC.

If you mind, do you want to message me about what's so inaccurate? Because I have found out ICly, at length. And quite a few other people have too. So this seems like a post designed to trip up newbies, more than actually contribute to the discussion. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there's some misunderstanding.

Not that it entirely matters. Nothing about spice's current coded effects is actually that relevant to the question. Since whatever those coded effects are, they don't seem to be unlocking the rich potential of spice-related RP, such as creating incentive for a meaningful smuggling culture.

[Dakota]

doing copious amounts of spice makes you cooler. this is a fact.

[Harmless]

Have they made it so spice effects wear off when logged out yet?

Until they do that, spice addiction is unplayable/unrealistic for me.

Also, I wish spice effects were way more unpredictable. There should be a chance for spice to be particularly strong -- it also happens in the real world with illicit drugs -- or to be dull and weak, or even to mildly poison you. I want to see more spiceheads get a "bad batch" of spice and puke up on the street, giving away their addiction, rather than the one giveaway being a certain command anyone in the room can do to them.

If there were a small chance for spice hits to permanently increase or alter a stat, that'd be badass. Personally i think this should start with methelinoc.

[MeTekillot]

Spice effects stay active between logins. I'm pretty sure alcohol sobering code was like specially coded as it's own global timer probably.

[Harmless]

Spice effects stay active between logins. I'm pretty sure alcohol sobering code was like specially coded as it's own global timer probably.

This is part of why when I play characters who regularly use spice at all that I end up with negative addiction effects VERY rapidly. I am the kind of player who sparsely logs in. I had made a thread about the negative effects of spice piling on too quickly to make sense and in that thread, Nyr posted this:

I see what you mean now...the lack of effects being reduced offline can be confusing, seeing as how the outlier is alcohol (after 2008).  I'll discuss with some coding staff to see what improvements could be made to spice, but keep in mind that any changes for playability may include changes that retain like-to-like detriments (and perhaps changes to documentation).

Since then, I've been eagerly watching the news for any changes to spice code, and as soon as I see signs of some changes I'll re-pursue spice addiction as a concept. Until then, it isn't very playable for my playtimes.

[James de Monet]

Some characters that I have played in this game have smoked a lot of spice.  Like, multiple bricks of it.  And out of all those times, I have only ever bothered to note the code effect of it once.  And I was kinda like, 'That's it?  Huh.'  I dunno, there may have been ameliorating factors.  At any rate, these characters may have been socially addicted, but they were not codedly/chemically addicted.

I'm not sure that info adds much to the discussion except to point out some PCs do smoke a lot of spice, and it doesn't necessarily require coded benefits to make them do it.  (But it does require both financial and logistical access.)

[solera]

Do you think having Apprentice/Journey think/feel sense while addicted and high on tho, wouldn't be fun or would harm the game?

I personally think it would harm the game.  

If this works for PCs, it would work for NPCs as well.  Enter the spice-addicted NPCs that are just posted about the Gaj, and they don't get their next dose from Noble/Merchant/Templar until they come back with some juicy tidbit that likely costs a character their status, plot, life.

Players, knowing that their thoughts are now open to interception, stop using thinks unless they want that think known to others.  The characters don't think anyless, the think-code just gets conveniently not used.

As a player, I would welcome anything that nerfed the Way a little bit, without removing its ooc benefits. Real secrets would more likely be passed through meetings or messengers.i

Addicts are icky, but not as icky as 'gickers.
 

[Clearsighted]

Some characters that I have played in this game have smoked a lot of spice.  Like, multiple bricks of it.  And out of all those times, I have only ever bothered to note the code effect of it once.  And I was kinda like, 'That's it?  Huh.'  I dunno, there may have been ameliorating factors.  At any rate, these characters may have been socially addicted, but they were not codedly/chemically addicted.

I'm not sure that info adds much to the discussion except to point out some PCs do smoke a lot of spice, and it doesn't necessarily require coded benefits to make them do it.  (But it does require both financial and logistical access.)

Right. In its current incarnation, enjoying spice is not unlike claiming to enjoy listening to jazz or watching soccer IRL. It's more of an elaborate affectation than anything else. People can, and a precious minority actually does, RP around it. But there's nothing about it to independently motivate or move plots, or create intrigue, conflict and interest.

Someone is either brilliant and creative, and works with it, such as yourself, uses it for twinking purposes without ever risking addiction, or ignores it.

There's noone making sids off a spice smuggling ring in Allanak, and no one is seriously concerned about people smoking spice in Allanak. Despite it being set up as a theme, and even culturally defining struggle. It could be a cockpit of RP, but right now, it's just a distraction.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Here's an example of a peculiar oddity in our world, given the way the IC culture is supposed to be.

Which will you pick up first? A brick of shiny red spice, or a humming, glowing skull-crested ring?

Yes, I'm aware that some magickal things have changed, but spice should be that attractive to us, OOCly AND ICly.

And THEN, make it illegal in Allanak with gate guards who will beat your ass and rob you and cart you to prison and not kill you.

[Synthesis]

Here's an example of a peculiar oddity in our world, given the way the IC culture is supposed to be.

Which will you pick up first? A brick of shiny red spice, or a humming, glowing skull-crested ring?

Yes, I'm aware that some magickal things have changed, but spice should be that attractive to us, OOCly AND ICly.

And THEN, make it illegal in Allanak with gate guards who will beat your ass and rob you and cart you to prison and not kill you.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, you would, because you're a good role-player, and you resist the OOC urge to boost your strength/wisdom/speed/etc by x points so you can get that horrendous on that silt horror. But, did you want to do that OOCly? No, no you didn't.

Do you want to accidentally OOC forget you are carrying spice, and get killed at the gates of Allanak, ICly? No, no you don't. Is the temporary boost you get from spice enough to make you crave it anyway, despite knowing that a single mistake can result in an unforgiving squad of half-giants caving your 45 day old character's head in? Usually, no, it's not.

But hey. Go you.

The point is that spice should be as OOCly attractive to the player as x magick necklace OOCly is. That is how you assure an addiction to something you can't be OOCly addicted to. Make it attractive, in game terms, because this is, after all, a game, and the more IC facets that can be OOCly active in this game, the more fun it is.

[Clearsighted]

Yes, you would, because you're a good role-player, and you resist the OOC urge to boost your strength/wisdom/speed/etc by x points so you can get that horrendous on that silt horror. But, did you want to do that OOCly? No, no you didn't.

Do you want to accidentally OOC forget you are carrying spice, and get killed at the gates of Allanak, ICly? No, no you don't. Is the temporary boost you get from spice enough to make you crave it anyway, despite knowing that a single mistake can result in an unforgiving squad of half-giants caving your 45 day old character's head in? Usually, no, it's not.

But hey. Go you.

The point is that spice should be as OOCly attractive to the player as x magick necklace OOCly is. That is how you assure an addiction to something you can't be OOCly addicted to. Make it attractive, in game terms, because this is, after all, a game, and the more IC facets that can be OOCly active in this game, the more fun it is.

Yes. There's nothing even remotely dangerous or beneficial enough about spice, whether in coded effects or even in the game's history and lore itself, at this point, that justifies its possession being a death sentence.

[Delirium]

Who says the proscription against spice had anything to do with spice itself?

[Clearsighted]

Who says the proscription against spice had anything to do with spice itself?

I suppose it could be an elaborate scheme by Kurac to artificially inflate the prices of the spice that is sold to the virtual NPC population by the virtual smugglers (and it has to be virtual, because no PC would currently bother). But I don't know why Tek would cooperate. Unless he was getting a cut of the action. Hmm...

Oh well. I tend to fall on the side of making things cooler for the PC population at the expense of the VNPC, as opposed to vice versa.

[Delirium]

Not disagreeing with you, I just think that it's highly unlikely good ol' Tek actually gives a shit about the effects of spice on his populace.

It's way more likely that Kurac did something to piss off Allanak.

I'm just theorizing anyway.

[BadSkeelz]

Tektolnes secretly hates his own population so he banned spice to ensure that his soldiers wouldn't have a chance against twinked-out coked-up northie hunter PCs.

[LauraMars]

Spice being illegal is just another convenient excuse for authority figures to steal from and oppress the common rabble.

[Talia]

I just think that it's highly unlikely good ol' Tek actually gives a shit about the effects of spice on his populace.

Spice being illegal is just another convenient excuse for authority figures to steal from and oppress the common rabble.

[Saellyn]

Spice is illegal so everyone can cry when nobles smoke it in front of everybody.

[Suhuy]

Late comer to the discussion here who's bypassed lot of what's been said, but..

One of my biggest beefs with the game in general when making a change is the disregarding of game aspects which, IMO, should be viewed as canonical to the ArmageddonMUD script. If you're going to change or add something to the game world, respect what's been the way it always has been and find a more seamless method of incorporating your idea. Why would spice all of a sudden grant psionic powers? Out of the blue, just like that? Even it seems like a neat idea and it "makes sense" (which I might argue against), how do you explain that it all of a sudden works differently than it ever has before?

I'm not shooting down your idea or saying you suck. Ideas are good. Bring more of them, in fact! But nothing burns my britches more than seeing things in the game world all of a sudden change, forcing us to RP as though things have always been this (new) way, when in fact they haven't. It's disrespectful to those players who experienced the game in a certain way and devalues their experience when the world is willy nilly changed without bothering to offer some form of IC explanation. I'm not saying change in and of itself is a bad thing, I hope the MUD continues to evolve and change. It's how the game is changed that makes or breaks the experience.

[Saellyn]

Well, psionics is seen as the unlocking of higher levels within the human mind, so... in... theory, spice -could- temporarily grant access to those parts of the mind.

I just don't think it should because then every fucking human would be trying to unlock psionic powers.


Or, realistically, 95% of them would avoid it outright because it grants forbidden talents that get you EXECUTED.

[Suhuy]

We should be trying to make the game less like Dune, not more like it

[Rumor]

...But there's nothing about it to independently motivate or move plots, or create intrigue, conflict and interest.

There's noone making sids off a spice smuggling ring in Allanak, and no one is seriously concerned about people smoking spice in Allanak. Despite it being set up as a theme, and even culturally defining struggle. It could be a cockpit of RP, but right now, it's just a distraction.

I don't really post in the main GDB, but this thread caught my attention. What you're posting right here is false. As in, literally the opposite of what you're saying is not true, is actually true. Spice has a place in the game and is very much played around. It drives plots, solely on its own. Has support from players and staff. In its current form.

That being said, I understand you want more people to use spice and thus become addicted. However, addiction is intentionally a negative side effect and proposing ideas to add benefits to it is very strange to me. It is akin to saying something along the lines of, "people don't fight as often, so we should give a benefit to being at the "bleeding heavily state". This will improve use of the combat code." Rooftops were added to the game and maybe people don't climb and explore as much. We could add a benefit to falling, so people try to climb more. Do you see the parallel I'm attempting to create here? There are benefits to things and there are consequences(negatives) to things.

I'd be curious to see how many coins in a RL month are given to Vennant for booze. Not like ale, which kinda staves off a tiny bit of thirst if you drink it here and there, but the stuff people are roleplaying getting drunk on. Players drink like that for the roleplaying experience (primarily) just as players who play characters who smoke spice casually (as in, they're not "buffing up" with it) do so for the roleplaying experience. They may even role play being addicted, when they're not codedly addicted to it. Again, for the role playing experience eschewed by code and not for a benefit granted to their character.

There are characters all over the game world interacting with, addicted to and becoming addicted to spice that are logged in every day right now. I can't speak to which the trend you play your characters, so I don't know how often you're exposed to these other characters, but I can say it is prevalent in certain areas of the game.

Also, to address giving characters coded benefits to addiction: I think it is a bad idea. Addiction is a negative consequence of abuse (not casual use) leading to unspeakable loss and death. People recover from addiction, they don't seek it out.