Following into falls or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Sinkhole

[Armaddict]

I've got no sympathy for people who aren't as in-tune to the threats of the world as I am.

I've got my map with all the hazards listed out, and I just stay far away from anything that has the chance to hurt me. Even if I somehow make a mistake and get close to a hazard, my arranged database of "this will kill you" triggers will light up my page and play a tiny siren so that I can stand clear. There's no reason for newer players to be cut a break for not having the collective years of experience with this game. Characters dying in OOC ways is what causes the harsh, gritty atmosphere I love!

I hope you realize just how asinine that is.  I have no databases.  I have no map.  I have no triggers.  I just realized, at a certain point that 'All is well' can turn into 'oh shit' very quickly for very many circumstances, and outside the city, those circumstances are amplified to include that the world itself is treacherous.  I am a flurry of activity out there, most of which does not have an echo, because the world can and will bite you in the ass.

Going over a cliff is not ooc.  Everyone following after someone over a cliff is easily readable as ooc.  This has already been shown through examples and correlations enough that it is now just a stubborn cling you're holding.  If I could properly convey and transfer the apprehension and care I take when moving about anywhere near the vicinity of a described cliff in the game, I would, but unfortunately that is something that people seem to learn through character loss.  It's not that we have maps and diagrams of threats.  It's that we have come to a healthy respect for the dangers that are there.

Risk-reduction in the game is counter-intuitive to the game itself.  It's a dangerous place to the unwary.  So...be wary.

I wonder if it's possible to make the fall rooms only fit one PC at a time much like certain tunnel rooms. This would prevent train wreck lemming RPTs. I'm fine with the leader / guide going down, but unless they're riding nut-to-butt I don't see it as being defensible.

I'm in favor of things like this, because I also thought it was strange that fights could erupt on cliffs.  That's some skills right there.  Though there might be other issues involved in that specific solution since it would 'block' a cliffside.

Don't treat the wilderness as a place you can just diddly-dum your way around and be safe, and it's not a problem. I can't be the only person who spams look in every direction after I move a room?

I favor this.  Seriously.  This game reaches out and bites you.  Zalanthas reaches out and bites your characters.  They're often intertwined.

And again:

To say it would never happen because <this> is wrong.  When people give you explanations of why it could have happened, you say no, because you're in direct control of your character and that's not how it happened.  Yet you, directly controlling your character, make a mistake, and it's tossed as a code misgiving.

[Narf]

I wonder if it's possible to make the fall rooms only fit one PC at a time much like certain tunnel rooms. This would prevent train wreck lemming RPTs. I'm fine with the leader / guide going down, but unless they're riding nut-to-butt I don't see it as being defensible.

That seems like a pretty elegant solution that shouldn't take too much coding. I wonder if the code would allow you to enter with your mount though, or if it's hard set to only let one creature at a time?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I wonder if it's possible to make the fall rooms only fit one PC at a time much like certain tunnel rooms. This would prevent train wreck lemming RPTs. I'm fine with the leader / guide going down, but unless they're riding nut-to-butt I don't see it as being defensible.

This is an excellent idea. In fact, make all climb rooms no follow, unless you are hitched (ie: mounts). Also make Ll instant death rooms the same , such as the Sea's deeper rooms. This preserves the 'pay for your own mistakes', and eliminates 'pay for other guy's mistakes'.

[valeria]

... I'm pretty sure that hole is both gritty and harsh ...

Meanwhile, it's very easy to say something "shouldn't take too much coding," but if you've ever looked at stock ROM code and then imagined various people taking onto it for 20+ years, that line will make you laugh your head off.  Or possibly cry.

Edit to add relevant grumpy cat:

[aeglaeca]

I seriously have no sympathy for someone who misses the blatant warnings around those rooms.

You keep mentioning 'blatant warnings', are you referring to the lines in the roomdesc or what?

[nauta]

I seriously have no sympathy for someone who misses the blatant warnings around those rooms.

You keep mentioning 'blatant warnings', are you referring to the lines in the roomdesc or what?

That one isn't blatant - a lot aren't.  Staff implemented some echoes about three days ago though.

[Clearsighted]

I'll make sure to build up the plot with 15 red herrings involving a nilazi hideout, gith radicals, Tuluki spies, and a new elemental plane. Then you'll all fall into a hole while following me because HARSH DESERT WORLD.

This sounds like one of the tamer Armageddon plots!

[Asanadas]

If Armageddon were a cRPG, this would have been patched 20 years ago.

If Armageddon were a sit-down tabletop game, the DM would be shamed to Hell and back because he keeps allowing entire campaigns to die due to this fascination he has with cliffs.

"You find yourself in the desert wastes... there's a cliff to the west."
"A cliff? Alright, I look west at the cliff."
"You see nothing."
"Let's move closer to the cliff and see if we can look down..."
"You fall and die. Everyone who was behind you falls and dies. Come back tomorrow with a new character sheet."

This might be funny the first time it happens (keyword: might). But, if over the course of fifteen-odd years, untold hundreds of characters are claimed by this fascination, there's no way to get around it -- the DM is an asshole.

The least I expect from a decent DM is a, "Are you sure you want to go over that cliff?" Is there something about Armageddon as a MUD where I can't expect at least that much decency involved?

[RogueGunslinger]

I seriously have no sympathy for someone who misses the blatant warnings around those rooms.

You keep mentioning 'blatant warnings', are you referring to the lines in the roomdesc or what?

They pop up in the move direction title I think? They're not in the description. You see them whenever you move into a room close to the cliff.  They added them longer than three days ago. I think it's been around a month. I remember making posts about it.

[BadSkeelz]

I seriously have no sympathy for someone who misses the blatant warnings around those rooms.

You keep mentioning 'blatant warnings', are you referring to the lines in the roomdesc or what?

That one isn't blatant - a lot aren't.  Staff implemented some echoes about three days ago though.

For that "one" hole, Staff added echoes over a week ago saying "You move perilously close to the edge of a chasm!" when you move into adjacent rooms. It flashes when you enter the room and can be missed in follow spam. Probably isn't too noticeable unless you're running Brief Room (which removes the room description) either. It's about as blatant as any warning you'll get in the current state of the game.

Room descriptions also include things like "The ground slopes towards a chasm to the north" but aren't quite so noticeable, especially if you have Brief Room toggled on. Even without it, it's just one line appended to a bunch of other lines you've seen a thousand times before.

The OTHER warnings people see are, if you look in the direction of a hole, you'll see notes at the very top saying "To the <direction> you see a hole" or something like that.

[aeglaeca]

Yeah, okay. Re: the sinkhole in particular, there wasn't anything like that, at least not for the followers. So uh, maybe someone should check that out and make sure all the exits got covered.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, okay. Re: the sinkhole in particular, there wasn't anything like that, at least not for the followers. So uh, maybe someone should check that out and make sure all the exits got covered.

Worth a bug check. I first noticed the warnings when I followed someone into a nearby room, so it ain't that.

[RogueGunslinger]

I keep brief room on to reduce spam. Use look room "l r" to check out the description when I feel you need to. Entering a new type of area, for instance.

[aeglaeca]

I have logs, I just checked. There wasn't anything.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't really know why they wouldn't pop up, even to a follower. That sounds wonky. If I was near the area and didn't see it I'd assume I wasn't near the cliff, and since its implementation wouldn't double check and probably just walk right the fuck off. Which would make it prime example of a case that merits resurrection.

[Is Friday]

I bet you if a PC led a plot NPC off a cliff they would get rezzed. 

[BadSkeelz]

File a bug or suggestion report. Warning like that should fire to every PC that enters a room surrounding the drop, imo. It's how I'd know to use my brand new "Follow me" (key: fme) alias.

[nauta]

I have logs, I just checked. There wasn't anything.

I think it happened after the, um, IC thing you aren't referring to:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,31255.msg890399.html#msg890399

[BadSkeelz]

It didn't, Nauta. The echos are at least a week old. i hav teh timestampz 2 proov

That said, they don't seem to be quite 100% yet.

[Molten Heart]

I bet you if a PC led a plot NPC off a cliff they would get rezzed. 

NPCs just respawn.

[Xalle]

There's a buggy thing going on about changes to rooms saving, even if they were done a month ago, and some of the echoes had disappeared. They're back now - please send in an unclanned request with attn Xalle if you ever notice they're missing. Followers get them too. This isn't the cause of that that recent IC thing we aren't talking about on the gdb tho are we. STOP and bring it up in requests please, if you need to.

[Harmless]

If Armageddon were a cRPG, this would have been patched 20 years ago.

If Armageddon were a sit-down tabletop game, the DM would be shamed to Hell and back because he keeps allowing entire campaigns to die due to this fascination he has with cliffs.

"You find yourself in the desert wastes... there's a cliff to the west."
"A cliff? Alright, I look west at the cliff."
"You see nothing."
"Let's move closer to the cliff and see if we can look down..."
"You fall and die. Everyone who was behind you falls and dies. Come back tomorrow with a new character sheet."

This might be funny the first time it happens (keyword: might). But, if over the course of fifteen-odd years, untold hundreds of characters are claimed by this fascination, there's no way to get around it -- the DM is an asshole.

The least I expect from a decent DM is a, "Are you sure you want to go over that cliff?" Is there something about Armageddon as a MUD where I can't expect at least that much decency involved?

"That DM sure is an asshole."
"Yeah, but the sex scenes are fucking amazing." *lights cigarette*

[AdamBlue]

While this was in the character theme song thread, I'm also going to post this here

KEEP ON TUMBLING DOWN TUMBLING DOWN TUMBLING DOWN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUFWXpYJKaI

[IntuitiveApathy]

Ever seen 15 people follow a leader off a cliff?  I have.  It was stupid 10* years ago.  Years have passed.  Still stupid now.

Lots of great suggestions in this thread.  There has to be one that's relatively easier to implement to solve this long standing issue.


* give or take 10 years

[Rolav]

I'm starting up this thread as a discussion topic for a certain pervasive problem where you'll follow your leader into what is probably certain death like you're a brain-dead lemming, and likely subsequently die/be horribly injured through no fault of your own besides incidentally poor clan choice. I'd suggest a mod move the posts from the other thread into here, but aren't they spread out over multiple pages and a pain in the butt to do? Whatever.

Anyway, I suggest code like the merchant's gate that is added to climbing and falling code. If following someplace would put you over a fall, you stop and think about it. If following someplace would make you climb, you stop and think about it.

The best solution to this problem is to not follow anyone around the wastes who doesn't know what they're doing. And certainly don't stake your life, and those of others on it, unless you're all good climbers. And remember you can 'dismount beetle' in midair.

That said. Making it ask for confirmation before lurching over an obvious death fall, would not be entirely amiss. But then, it seems to happen regardless, even in places where that coded request for confirmation exists.

This is a perfect example for how players and characters, who can keep their heads in the wastes and know the terrain, are a god send to any clan.

It's not necessarily about them not knowing what they're doing. Most of the several falls of one of my characters were the result of following an experienced player/character, always with a high clan ranking.