Combat Skill Progression Revamped

[Clearsighted]

I kinda wish that players had access to a test server where we could test code modifications rather than just theory craft about them.  I'd have to err on the side of caution in ideas like this a lot less and be able to say 'Let's try it out!'.

Hell, I kinda wish that even staff could do that. As far as I know though, they don't have something like that set up for them to experiment in.

[Is Friday]

I kinda wish that players had access to a test server where we could test code modifications rather than just theory craft about them.  I'd have to err on the side of caution in ideas like this a lot less and be able to say 'Let's try it out!'.

Achaea does this. It helps their coders out.

With that being said, it's a pain in the ass to implement.

[Nyr]

I kinda wish that players had access to a test server where we could test code modifications rather than just theory craft about them.  I'd have to err on the side of caution in ideas like this a lot less and be able to say 'Let's try it out!'.

Hell, I kinda wish that even staff could do that. As far as I know though, they don't have something like that set up for them to experiment in.

You mean our test port?

[Clearsighted]

I kinda wish that players had access to a test server where we could test code modifications rather than just theory craft about them.  I'd have to err on the side of caution in ideas like this a lot less and be able to say 'Let's try it out!'.

Hell, I kinda wish that even staff could do that. As far as I know though, they don't have something like that set up for them to experiment in.

You mean our test port?

That's pretty cool if staff has a separate hosting of the game they can run through and try things out with. For some reason, I remembered hearing otherwise.

[Armaddict]

Yeah, I knew they had a test port, but I meant something for players to be able to feel out things on experimental code to see if we liked it or not.

I'm extremely tentative about things like this, because when it comes to code...small things can make a tremendous difference in unforeseen ways.

[Is Friday]

I'm cautiously optimistic that a select few players with high karma that can be "trusted" not to spread ye ol' secrets of the code can be utilized to assist coders fix systems like the economy and combat. Is this an idea that has been explored before, Nyr?

[Case]

I'm cautiously optimistic that a select few players with high karma that can be "trusted" not to spread ye ol' secrets of the code can be utilized to assist coders fix systems like the economy and combat. Is this an idea that has been explored before, Nyr?

Yeah, it's planned afaik. I've spoken to staff about helping on some design work without being a staff member.

I doubt the focus would be on "fixing" combat/economy, probably catchup maintenance and bug fixes, which I have a good handle on. (derail: I would also argue there's no such thing as a MUD/game economy much different from what we have).

A test port for players to try out experimental code though? That'd be pointless. Players barely seem to understand what already exists! Limited perspective gamer/player understandings do not a programmer or system designer make.

[Clearsighted]

I'm cautiously optimistic that a select few players with high karma that can be "trusted" not to spread ye ol' secrets of the code can be utilized to assist coders fix systems like the economy and combat. Is this an idea that has been explored before, Nyr?

I'm not sure karma has much, if anything to do, with the harshest and hardest aspects of codes. In fact, the surest way to reach high karma is basically to stay away from such things, such as chopping stuff with bone swords in the wastes.

There used to be a huge emphasis on magickers, even though magickers are pretty much the easiest to play and with the least temptation to twink. Provided you have even a modicum of knowledge about the game world, can RP coherently, and don't get caught massively abusing your abilities...once upon a time, you could pretty much ride the elementalist ladder. You'd special app a krathi or a whiran, prove you didn't abuse that (so many karma 4 whirans did), then special app an elkrosi, then special app a Nilazi, and be relatively long lived with each.

It's not like playing a mundane or a Bynner, where depending on what an observing staffer had for breakfast that morning, you might get a bad account note about sparring, or what you're fighting, or how you're fighting it, or whether you're carrying a bag of rocks, or drinking, or if you happened across a gicker and didn't behave as fearfully as they thought you should. There's a lot of stuff to trip you up, even with the best of intentions. Maybe you skinned a few critters a bit too fast when lagging or bored.

If you liked magickers, like social RP, and had a certain tolerance for solo emoting, it was much easier. The Conclave's existence basically owed itself to this fact.

I'm not making any claims about how it is currently.

[Is Friday]

Karma != understanding of code, rather it is a level of trust for players learning about the code to not abuse knowing how it works. Hence, high karma players would probably be the test kids.

[Nyr]

I'm cautiously optimistic that a select few players with high karma that can be "trusted" not to spread ye ol' secrets of the code can be utilized to assist coders fix systems like the economy and combat. Is this an idea that has been explored before, Nyr?

It is not, at least not anything like you are describing.

We occasionally do ask for player assistance in testing specific systems out when they are close to implementation and when they do require player input, feedback, and assistance prior to implementation.  This helps us identify and find bugs for things we would not have discovered otherwise.  It gives us ideas for prompts and the like.  Staff testing can also be pretty rigorous but may not approach the level that a player would, since staff members see things from a different perspective.  (Staff have a ton of commands and settings with which to view things, but players are limited in both areas.)

In the above cases, we already have a vision for a change and it is being implemented--it just needs finessing and testing from some players.  Sometimes we do not need that extra testing because it is a simple enough fix or can be entirely tested by staff members.

[Ender]

In the above cases, we already have a vision for a change and it is being implemented--it just needs finessing and testing from some players.  Sometimes we do not need that extra testing because it is a simple enough fix or can be entirely tested by staff members.

Wait, does this mean there's something in the works to fix the old broken skill progression system?

[Is Friday]

[Riev]

In the above cases, we already have a vision for a change and it is being implemented--it just needs finessing and testing from some players.  Sometimes we do not need that extra testing because it is a simple enough fix or can be entirely tested by staff members.

Wait, does this mean there's something in the works to fix the old broken skill progression system?

Based on what he said, no. He said "in the above cases" meaning "the cases in which they ask for player input, they already have a vision for change". Not currently.

[Ender]

Based on what he said, no. He said "in the above cases" meaning "the cases in which they ask for player input, they already have a vision for change". Not currently.

Oh, ok.

[Nyr]

In the above cases, we already have a vision for a change and it is being implemented--it just needs finessing and testing from some players.  Sometimes we do not need that extra testing because it is a simple enough fix or can be entirely tested by staff members.

Wait, does this mean there's something in the works to fix the old broken skill progression system?

Based on what he said, no. He said "in the above cases" meaning "the cases in which they ask for player input, they already have a vision for change". Not currently.

Correct!

No plans in place to assess the skill progression system, at least at this time.

[Clearsighted]

In the above cases, we already have a vision for a change and it is being implemented--it just needs finessing and testing from some players.  Sometimes we do not need that extra testing because it is a simple enough fix or can be entirely tested by staff members.

It's good to hear that staff is always working on stuff. It's what I've always believed. But some issues are farther down on the priority list than others. In those cases, one can only hope that if it provokes enough interest or discussion, it might get shuffled up a notch.

[Riev]

In the above cases, we already have a vision for a change and it is being implemented--it just needs finessing and testing from some players.  Sometimes we do not need that extra testing because it is a simple enough fix or can be entirely tested by staff members.

It's good to hear that staff is always working on stuff. It's what I've always believed. But some issues are farther down on the priority list than others. In those cases, one can only hope that if it provokes enough interest or discussion, it might get shuffled up a notch.

There are definitely always priorities. I mean, think where the Arm Economy would be without Poop code?

Zing!

[wizturbo]

Personally, I like the way things are now.  There should be a plateau where advancing in combat skills becomes extremely difficult if all you're doing is sparring.  

What I don't like is a lack of options for breaking past this plateau for city based characters.  For instance, specialized training should be able to nudge your combat skills higher.  This training can be done virtually, without requiring PC's to spend time sparring during their play sessions, but instead may require them to achieve other IC goals to unlock the training resource (i.e. getting promoted to a certain level in a clan, convincing a noble to provide their training, etc.)  These IC goals will help create content for the rest of the game, as these players have their characters scheme their way into a position to receive this advanced training.  It also gives a nice shiny carrot to nobles and clan leaders, giving them some rewards/incentives they can provide to allies/clan members for helping them achieve their own goals.

Picture this scenario:  You're a journeyman bludgeoner with aspirations of becoming a master.  Well, there's a Borsail noble that has an ex-gladiator slave whose a renown master warrior.  You could try and convince Lady Borsail to have her slave train you.  Naturally, the slave can only train one person at a time because they spend most of their time boffing pleasure slaves and living the good life having 'won' the Arena.   You can expect some competition when it comes to getting this valuable training.  Of course, Lady Borsail has her own goals to achieve, what are you willing to do to get this training from her?    In this scenario,  a little M.C.B.  is required to get this skill mastery as a city character,  and that sounds way more interesting than sparring, or twinking out as an indie hunter.  I also like the idea that if someone achieves Master in a weapon skill, they can train others just like the slave example I had above.  The training becomes a plot device and an opportunity for conflict and role-play, rather than a skill grind.  

Of course, if this Master chooses to train the wrong student, they might find themselves meeting this guy:



I also think that participating in combat intensive RPTs should give the survivors a bit of a skill bump, just to support how hardened they are after the experience, so another way to get good at combat is to show up to crazy RPTs and almost die a few dozen times


TLDR:  Turn high level skill advancement into a plot, instead of a grind.  Do so by adding limited training capabilities to master-level PCs, or adding NPC trainers as resources for nobles and/or combat oriented clans.  

[Aruven]

Turn high level skill advancement into a plot, instead of a grind.  Do so by adding limited training capabilities to master-level PCs, or adding NPC trainers as resources for nobles and/or combat oriented clans.  

Did you just give an incentive back to actually achieving a rank in a clan as well as an awesome potential alternative?

[wizturbo]

Did you just give an incentive back to actually achieving a rank in a clan as well as an awesome potential alternative?

Sort of.  Clan rank might be one of the ways of getting advanced training in some clans.  Alternatively, advancing to a high level in a clan might put you in a position to decide who gets that training.  It gives you something other people want.  Whose more powerful, the master warrior, or the guy who commands the master warrior?  

The idea is that advanced training could be a bargaining chip.  A plot device, to stir things up.  

Let's say the Tor Academy can provide this training, and has one spot for a PC every 2 IC years.  Making buddies with a Tor noble might get you access to that spot.  Pissing off Tor might restrict you from ever getting that spot.  Alternatively, making buddies with an Oashi, who has something that Tor wants, might be the best way of getting that training instead...  See where I'm going with this?  It becomes a plot on who gets the training.  There's potential for murder, corruption and betrayal to get these scarce training opportunities...instead of grinding.

[Synthesis]

That seems like a really good way to generate butt-hurt about cliques and favoritism (real or imagined).

[wizturbo]

That seems like a really good way to generate butt-hurt about cliques and favoritism (real or imagined).

I see more potential for characters to get ICly butt-hurt about IC cliques and IC favoritism.  The kind of IC response that creates a breeding ground for conflict (i.e. fun).  If a character gets repeatedly turned down for advanced training, they should ICly get angry about it.  They should ICly take the gloves off, and start to play hardball to get what they want...  Murder, corrupt, and betray to get the training or die trying, that's the Zalanthian way.  

That's how this kind of thing happens in real life too, to be honest.  People get into Harvard because their dad donated millions.  They get the kick ass job because their uncle is a VP at the company, ectera.  The key is to make these cases of favoritism be for IC reasons, not OOC reasons.

[Aruven]

That seems like a really good way to generate butt-hurt about cliques and favoritism (real or imagined).

Yup, always this danger. I do think city-based characters specifically had some qualms with the code as is, so I believe at least for them this is an awesome concept. Totally allows for the RP to reward solid players with the needed ways to get to that next level.

[Synthesis]

That seems like a really good way to generate butt-hurt about cliques and favoritism (real or imagined).

I see more potential for characters to get ICly butt-hurt about IC cliques and IC favoritism.  The kind of IC response that creates a breeding ground for conflict (i.e. fun).  If a character gets repeatedly turned down for advanced training, they should ICly get angry about it.  They should ICly take the gloves off, and start to play hardball to get what they want...  Murder, corrupt, and betray to get the training or die trying, that's the Zalanthian way.  

That's how this kind of thing happens in real life too, to be honest.  People get into Harvard because their dad donated millions.  They get the kick ass job because their uncle is a VP at the company, ectera.  The key is to make these cases of favoritism be for IC reasons, not OOC reasons.

Heh, well.  If you want to look at that ungraciously...we've gone from "I don't want to kill critters to skill up" to "I WILL FUCKING MURDER YOUR FACE TO SKILL UP!"

This actually seems like a great employment plan for assassins.  If I were running the training shop, I'd also run the assassin shop:  charge mid-range warriors to join the training club, then get the other mid-range warriors to pay to have him killed.  Rinse.  Repeat.

[wizturbo]

Heh, well.  If you want to look at that ungraciously...we've gone from "I don't want to kill critters to skill up" to "I WILL FUCKING MURDER YOUR FACE TO SKILL UP!"

This actually seems like a great employment plan for assassins.  If I were running the training shop, I'd also run the assassin shop:  charge mid-range warriors to join the training club, then get the other mid-range warriors to pay to have him killed.  Rinse.  Repeat.

Seems much more fun to me

Frankly though, murder probably isn't the only lever to pull here.  You don't need to kill your opponents to get them out of the way, you can always:

• Ruin their reputation with their supporters
• Blackmail them
• Intimidate them, or their loved ones
• Offer them something else they want
• Bribe/Coerce their supporters into supporting you instead
• Other things I haven't considered in the three minutes I spent thinking about this

So many more possibilities than just simple murder, and all so much more fun than sparring.