Backstab variation

[CodeMaster]

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Backstab
(Melee Combat)
This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an
opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the
back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character
successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital
location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury
depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Syntax:
backstab (target)
Example(s):
> backstab raider


Idea hamstring:

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A variation of this skill entails targeting an opponent's mobility
i.e., hamstringing one's opponent.  While the chances of crippling an
opponent with such an attack are low, and the maneuver is rarely
fatal (in such cases, backstab should be attempted instead), victims
suffer from immediate and severe loss of mobility. b erlp derp berp

Syntax:
hamstring (target)
Example(s):
> hamstring elf


Like sap, but eats large amounts of stamina?

[RogueGunslinger]

Fuck yes.


Edit: Just realized this would be pretty useless in cities where travel is free. Also that poison already sort of takes the place of what you're describing. Perhaps it could knock them to resting/sitting at higher levels.

[MeTekillot]

So, like, bash with less risk but for assassins?

[RogueGunslinger]

So, like, bash with less risk but for assassins?

That just makes it sound like throw-skill.

Hrm.

[CodeMaster]

So, like, bash with less risk but for assassins?

I imagined it doing some token amount of hp damage (nothing like backstab), but primarily stamina damage -- some balanced variation of that.  They don't end up seated, they don't incur any combat lag, and they can flee instantly, but their stamina takes a hit.

I think it would create some interesting situations.  If you're relatively low on stamina, you're in a new kind of position of vulnerability.  If you want to limit your opponent's ability to run away and fill you with arrows, you might choose this as a defensive option.  If you have no chance against that warrior with his skills involved, this could help you take them out of the equation.

[HavokBlue]

I don't see this being very useful. In most situations it's useless except as a way of making it easier to kill... desert elves and other iso characters that don't use mounts.

Perhaps instead, if you hamstring someone, the first time they attempt to flee they trip and fall? Or it applies a base chance to trip and fall to all of their movement similar to being drunk?

[Synthesis]

Draining stamina would be a mostly useless mechanic.

A better mechanic would be to hard-code a severe and fairly long-lasting movement-speed penalty and add blood trail during the duration (regardless of the target's hp status).

[Clearsighted]

Draining stamina would be a mostly useless mechanic.

Said no delf ever, who was ever poisoned with grishen.

[Armaddict]

I proposed this idea a long way back, pretty much Synth's version of it, and it was well received but not implemented.

I don't think they want to add more to assassins, is the thing.

[CodeMaster]

Yeah - I guess it occurred to me as something flavorful and easy to implement, but not necessarily powerful.

And not necessarily an assassin's tool.  If there were a raider subguild, I think this would be an appropriate skill for them to have - a real gambit would be to try to hamstring a mount without getting killed by it.

FWIW, I like both variations.

[HavokBlue]

Draining stamina would be a mostly useless mechanic.

Said no delf ever, who was ever poisoned with grishen.

Well, right. Like I said. A stamina drain attack is generally useless except against desert elves or the rare few other roles who do not utilize mounts. You already have the benefits conferred by fighting from a mount and you already have the option to use Grishen poison if you need to drain someone's stamina.

[Synthesis]

Draining stamina would be a mostly useless mechanic.

Said no delf ever, who was ever poisoned with grishen.

When's the last time you, as a d-elf, got backstabbed out in the desert?  'cause I'm gonna be honest:  that sounds like a terrible idea.

By which I mean to say...this would never get used out in the desert, except maybe as some sort of teamfight mechanic.  (Charge and reel-lock are usually enough for that, though.  The last time an assassin in a teamfight tried backstabbing me, I just pulled a change opponent and literally split him in two before his backstab delay wore off.)

[Armaddict]

It is also helpful when you know you're gonna win, but you know they're gonna run.  Unless they're a city-elf, since they can run for no movement cost in a lot of rooms.  Reduces them to walking speed after a certain amount of time.  Combined with grishen, makes it a pretty nasty thing, altogether.

Edited to add:  Synth's version is still better, unless yours also modifies stamina regen for a time.  Otherwise they just run, get some distance, and rest for a time.

[Clearsighted]

Hamstring would be a great warrior ability, to punish people you know are going to flee from you.

[HavokBlue]

I dig the idea of a hamstring that affects your movement delay or causes you to stumble and fall or whatever. I'd give it to warriors and the stealth trio.

It's just that a hamstring that just hits stamina is pointless and redundant.

[Synthesis]

I'm not necessarily saying I think the idea is even a good one...

I just think that a severe movement-speed reduction + blood trail would be more devastating than a severe stamina hit.  I'm assuming that since the skill is backstab-like, it'll have a backstab-like delay on it...and if you're going to put that kind of a delay on a combat command, it had better be pretty useful...especially since you're using that -instead of- backstab.

The idea is more or less to trade a potential instagib (backstab or sap) for an anti-flee mechanic.  I actually like the "dazed and stumbling" effect idea...that could even be added to sap as either a random effect or as a side-effect of high-rolled successful hits.

Warriors already have 2 anti-flee mechanics:  bash and subdue.  They don't need a third one.

[Armaddict]

Warriors already have 2 anti-flee mechanics:  bash and subdue.  They don't need a third one.

This is very true.  I find it odd that people rarely use them, they're pretty much the most important things you have.  I guess that's the illusion made by constant sparring, is that disarm and kick win fights.

Most fights aren't even.  Bash is what made Berlian easily able to take down any mul I raided with, back in the day.  Fear teh bashes!

I'd proposed this as an assassin skill.  Because sometimes, them not escaping is more important than killing them quickly.  Backstab has a long after delay, and if you don't insta-gib them, they will get away.

[Synthesis]

Warriors already have 2 anti-flee mechanics:  bash and subdue.  They don't need a third one.

This is very true.  I find it odd that people rarely use them, they're pretty much the most important things you have.  I guess that's the illusion made by constant sparring, is that disarm and kick win fights.

Most fights aren't even.  Bash is what made Berlian easily able to take down any mul I raided with, back in the day.  Fear teh bashes!

I'd proposed this as an assassin skill.  Because sometimes, them not escaping is more important than killing them quickly.  Backstab has a long after delay, and if you don't insta-gib them, they will get away.

Ah...Berlian, Boad, Lius, Ysania, Eldor...those were the days.

[Clearsighted]

Bash is an interesting ability with a set of not inconsiderable drawbacks. It's hard to get the point where it's reliable, because so much is affected by height and weight. It's possible to practice it a great deal and still have an non-warrior elf avoid you 2 out of 3 times.

Subdue is amazing if you're an HG or a mul. But I've seen people subdue someone - have it instantly broken with flee - and then get butchered while still unarmed, by their armed opponent. I have in fact, done that to an HG myself, who subdued me (dropping his weapons in the process).

A attack that directly punished people/critters for fleeing away from you by hitting their stamina, would be superior to either, IMO.

[Synthesis]

Bash is an interesting ability with a set of not inconsiderable drawbacks. It's hard to get the point where it's reliable, because so much is affected by height and weight. It's possible to practice it a great deal and still have an non-warrior elf avoid you 2 out of 3 times.

Subdue is amazing if you're an HG or a mul. But I've seen people subdue someone - have it instantly broken with flee - and then get butchered while still unarmed, by their armed opponent. I have in fact, done that to an HG myself, who subdued me (dropping his weapons in the process).

A attack that directly punished people/critters for fleeing away from you by hitting their stamina, would be superior to either, IMO.

Or, instead of adding something new, they could just tweak subdue and bash so they don't suck so much.

[RogueGunslinger]

Bash increases incredibly slow and is way too dependent on height, so much so that skilling up bash on a dwarf seems like a bad idea, and god forbid you ever need to depend on it in a real fight. And subdue you never have enough chances to use it to get it to a useful level, unless you running out to wrestle with NPC's or something.

Warriors progress too slow in general and have too few opportunities to train some skills. The only reason you see so many people skilling disarm is because it goes up pretty quick, is easy to skill-up in normal sparring, and has use even at lower levels.

[HavokBlue]

Bash is an interesting ability with a set of not inconsiderable drawbacks. It's hard to get the point where it's reliable, because so much is affected by height and weight. It's possible to practice it a great deal and still have an non-warrior elf avoid you 2 out of 3 times.

Subdue is amazing if you're an HG or a mul. But I've seen people subdue someone - have it instantly broken with flee - and then get butchered while still unarmed, by their armed opponent. I have in fact, done that to an HG myself, who subdued me (dropping his weapons in the process).

A attack that directly punished people/critters for fleeing away from you by hitting their stamina, would be superior to either, IMO.

Hitting their stamina does not punish them, unless by them you are referring specifically to desert elves and the one or two other characters that might have a reason to not mount up. It doesn't matter if you chunk me for 40 or 60 stamina if I can hop on my inix and ride off and it doesn't matter if you chunk me for 40 or 60 stamina if I'm in the city where I have no stam drain. So lets say we get a new coded ability that really only punishes desert elves who try to flee from... assassins?... Who are out in Desert Elf territory for some reason?... While assassins already have access to the Poison skill which means they already have a way to hit your stam?...

There are too many holes in this idea.

[Clearsighted]

Bash is an interesting ability with a set of not inconsiderable drawbacks. It's hard to get the point where it's reliable, because so much is affected by height and weight. It's possible to practice it a great deal and still have an non-warrior elf avoid you 2 out of 3 times.

Subdue is amazing if you're an HG or a mul. But I've seen people subdue someone - have it instantly broken with flee - and then get butchered while still unarmed, by their armed opponent. I have in fact, done that to an HG myself, who subdued me (dropping his weapons in the process).

A attack that directly punished people/critters for fleeing away from you by hitting their stamina, would be superior to either, IMO.

Hitting their stamina does not punish them, unless by them you are referring specifically to desert elves and the one or two other characters that might have a reason to not mount up. It doesn't matter if you chunk me for 40 or 60 stamina if I can hop on my inix and ride off and it doesn't matter if you chunk me for 40 or 60 stamina if I'm in the city where I have no stam drain. So lets say we get a new coded ability that really only punishes desert elves who try to flee from... assassins?... Who are out in Desert Elf territory for some reason?... While assassins already have access to the Poison skill which means they already have a way to hit your stam?...

There are too many holes in this idea.

Well. It could be made to give you stamina drain while moving, even if in a city.

As for mounts/outdoors. You might have a point. 3-4 years ago, riding was a big deal, and only rangers or those with the right subguild (basically) could effectively fight mounted.

These days, it seems ride is extremely lenient, such that even a Byn newbie can get to no-hands riding, and not have it substantially affect them while fighting. I don't see any warriors dismounting to fight as used to be de rigueur.

In fact, it seems impossible to even raise riding to mastery, these days, as failing re-mounting in combat or falling off while fighting, no longer appears to even be possible, after journeyman.

In any case. You could always hamstring someone's mount. I used to attack/poison people's mounts all the time. If you're in the middle of the salt flats, most people are fucked once you've killed their beetle in a few hits.

Anyways. There are holes in it, for a lot of other reasons.

[Jihelu]

Maybe hamstringing could also give you a chance at failing to get on your mount cause pain/whatever so it could work as that.
Or hamstring their mounts.
Hamstring your self.
HAMSTRING


I like the concept.

[lostinspace]

Just make it impose a penalty on the opponents ability to flee that gets better with skill level. If you have master hamstring and they have master flee then it's like they don't have the flee skill. If your hamstring is higher than their flee, they're stuck until the combat ends.