My feelings of the world Post Tuluk...

[Asmoth]

Alright, so as a pretty widely traveled character (currently) I have to say that the north feels.. Incomplete.

I'm not saying that I think cramming everyone in Allanak is a bad thing, but there was always something sort of comforting about being able to ride into Tuluk for the night, or swing in to do trade with them.

Now the north feels like it's missing a huge chunk of economy and a large bit of security without it.

I personally have no idea where this Morins is, and if it has places to trade to make riding up to Tuluk's neighborhood worth it or not, but if it doesn't, then I don't know how I feel about this in practical application.

I dunno, just sharing some thoughts.

[Taven]

Morin's location isn't supposed to be highly secret. It should be easy enough for your PC to figure out just by asking around. If that doesn't do it, a little bit of exploring should. The nice thing is that Morin's has been expanded recently, as per staff announcements. It includes more trade then it previously did, shifting it to be more of a proper outpost. The goods there are way more limited then Tuluk, of course, because it isn't a city. There's a scarcity of some items. I think some of that is intentional and I think some of it the imms will be tweaking as needed. But it is definitely still possible for a PC to swing down north and simply hang out in Morin's for a night and do some trade. Is it worth it to do so? You'll have to find out and decide for yourself.

As to the north missing security due to the economy, I would say there's more then the economy for the north to worry about. Tuluk's closing had a strong OOC aspect to it, yes, but I can assure you that staff worked hard to give solid IC reasons and a legitimate within-the-world basis for it. Tuluk's close did not happen in a void where the city just magickally became virtual--there were Things Which Happened. Your PC may be able to figure out what happened, or they may not be able to. They may care, they may not.

I hope that helps some.

[Malken]

I still have no idea if Tuluk closing was more OOC and we should all pretend that it's still around and there's really no real reason as to why it's closed or if there's actually an IC (probably weak'ish?) reason to go along with it.

[Harmless]

there were Things Which Happened

[Malken]

there were Things Which Happened

But it's still around and there's still plenty of people in it (like thousands?) so why can't I be one of them. It's still feel like a very weakish IC reason.

[Taven]

there were Things Which Happened

But it's still around and there's still plenty of people in it (like thousands?) so why can't I be one of them. It's still feel like a very weakish IC reason.

Nobody's saying that Tuluk being closed doesn't suck. It does suck! It sucks that so many players had to abandon so many plots, especially when the city was more alive then it's been in a very long time. It sucks that we lost some of the best nobles and templars that have been seen in a very long time. Frustration abounds, I feel you there.

That said, you could tell staff put a lot of thought into the way things went down. They wanted to give people who kept their Tuluki PCs but were displaced a context for everything. Guys, it's not just "oh the city still exists virtually and we just pretend everything is normal, lalala". That is NOT it at ALL. There have been PCs who have been shattered over what happened, PCs who are scrambling to understand, and PCs struggling to survive. There's serious IC ramifications to this change. And really, isn't that better then just pretending everything is fine like normal?

[Asmoth]

there were Things Which Happened

But it's still around and there's still plenty of people in it (like thousands?) so why can't I be one of them. It's still feel like a very weakish IC reason.

My concern is that because so many people are so up in arms about Tuluk closing that the staff may eventually icly destroy it just to stop this line of questioning.

[Nergal]

I'm not sure where you would get the idea that "so many people are up in arms about Tuluk closing". Disappointed? Perhaps. I know I was, having played in Tuluk a lot and then went on to staff for the Legions and Faithful. But I helped put on an IC plot to justify the OOC circumstances. It's possible the details of that plot will go up on the history page eventually, so that people can understand it better.

Could Morin's be improved? Probably. You're welcome to put ideas in about it. It's only been open about a week in its current form.

Staff have already said we're not going to ICly destroy Tuluk, so as to leave our options open for a possible reopening in the distant future. So I'm not going to address that "possibility" any further than that.

[Pale Horse]

Up in arms?  Even reading the Tuluk closing thread, I didn't really get a "hell no!" feeling from the playerbase.  Everyone seemed very mature in their responses.

Are you meaning reactions IG?  If it's IG, keep it IG.

Edit: Beaten by Staff.

[Malken]

there were Things Which Happened

But it's still around and there's still plenty of people in it (like thousands?) so why can't I be one of them. It's still feel like a very weakish IC reason.

Nobody's saying that Tuluk being closed doesn't suck. It does suck! It sucks that so many players had to abandon so many plots, especially when the city was more alive then it's been in a very long time. It sucks that we lost some of the best nobles and templars that have been seen in a very long time. Frustration abounds, I feel you there.

That said, you could tell staff put a lot of thought into the way things went down. They wanted to give people who kept their Tuluki PCs but were displaced a context for everything. Guys, it's not just "oh the city still exists virtually and we just pretend everything is normal, lalala". That is NOT it at ALL. There have been PCs who have been shattered over what happened, PCs who are scrambling to understand, and PCs struggling to survive. There's serious IC ramifications to this change. And really, isn't that better then just pretending everything is fine like normal?

I'm not really complaining (certainly not up in arms - I love the busy Allanak), to be honest, I'm just confused as to why it closed down and I still don't understand ICLY why it's closed down. OOCly I kinda do, it's closed because it's closed, but ICly it's still around and it still exists and there's till people living in it and everything is as it should be but I'm not supposed to go in because something something (that I don't really understand ICly). OOCly I understand why I shouldn't be in Tuluk but ICly I don't, even though my PC does, but then, he really doesn't.

That.. Totally cleared my thought on this, I hope ;p

I understand but I don't understand but I sorta understand but my PC sorta understands too but he sorta doesn't as well.

[Taven]

....but ICly it's still around.....and everything is as it should be.....

Actually, everything is not as it should be. Don't make me break out the big bold letters and staff quotes, 'cause I am sorely tempted.

I understand but I don't understand but I sorta understand but my PC sorta understands too but he sorta doesn't as well.

If your PC is confused and wants to learn more, there may be ways to do just that.

[solera]

Because Tuluk is still virtually open to PCs, I'd like to see periodic rumour posts on the Morin's Board to give an idea of what you would expect to see when you pay Granny a visit.

I understand but I don't understand but I sorta understand but my PC sorta understands too but he sorta doesn't as well.

Surely as a true-inked, you and your PC would be comfortable with this mindset.

[Harmless]

I think that the whole issue of how "closed" the gates actually are will be clarified with time. What we know for sure is Morin's won't become a new Tuluk, it's just an outpost, but my expectation is that it'll be sufficient that players will be able to get what they absolutely needed out of Tuluk with it for playability purposes.

The whole reason for Tuluk closing was to free up staff time, though. Even though staff have said they're going to animate Tuluk when needed, as a playerbase we all need to voluntarily accept that staff are not going to help us with our curiosity too much for the sake of expanding other plots. Unless it also affects plots in Allanak or other places, I think Tuluk should just be left alone.

Trust me, ICly, when you find out what happened, your character will likely not want to go prodding at it too much. This much is hinted at by the name of the last Tuluk RPT: "Escape from Tuluk."

[HavokBlue]

my only complaint is that offpeak has triple the numbers

but you're all dicking around in allanak

[nauta]

It would be nice to get a "What you would know..." update from staff - there are a lot of conflicting things being said IG about the situation, some of which strike me as pretty dubious extrapolations from OOC information.  (E.g., OOCly we know there are displaced PCs, but IGly this could just be normal or it could indicate a refugee thing.)

[Cind]

Tuluki refugees in Allanak seem to be the new city elves, from what I've seen. I should say I saw it coming, but I also kind of want to actually see Tuluki refugees in Allanak after the initial wave dies down. And native elves beating them up.

[HavokBlue]

the solution is for everyone to play wilderness PCs and tribals in the north

fucking do it nerds

[Jihelu]

I'll make my own city!

[Gaare]

It has been only a week. I think it's way too early to speak about it. We'll begin to feel changes in a few months time, at best.. When South, power center of the game world begins expending its influence, then there will be a lot of 'nak centered plots all over the place.

PS. I kinda expect tribes to be influnced from streets of 'nak.

[roughneck]

Playing a refugee is cool. I think the way staff closed Tuluk, and the attention they were willing to give players to individually play out their exodus, was really cool.

I think having a huge imposing city state that is not a safe haven, but something you should IC'ly be a little worried about, is awesome because it adds a sense of tension and danger to the play there. One less safe haven is a positive in my books.

And Morin's is neat, I think it will develop a unique flavour and be a fun place to play.

Change is hard for humans, but anything that makes the game feel less static and predictable I'm a fan of.

[Zoan]

I might actually play a tribal human/sun runner again. No more tribemates finding dumb reasons to go hang out in Tuluk for weeks at a time, and may actually embrace the 'nomad' lifestyle.

[Armaddict]

Now the north feels like it's missing a huge chunk of economy and a large bit of security without it.

I feel your assessment is premature, considering only a week has passed, which is barely time for anything in the game to get rolling aside from spontaneous scenes.  However, I quoted the above because I wanted to point out...you're segregating.  You're maintaining north vs south, so of course Tuluk being closed will make 'the north' lacking. 

However, if you envision the world as a whole, there is nothing lacking right now, but the north is more of a badlands.  A fertile, dangerous badlands.  The sooner you embrace that to players, it is the boonies to the rest of civilization, the sooner it becomes the cool thing that people like me talk about from the past.

[slvrmoontiger]

I might actually play a tribal human/sun runner again. No more tribemates finding dumb reasons to go hang out in Tuluk for weeks at a time, and may actually embrace the 'nomad' lifestyle.

Feel the tribalness... Be a tribal! Go tribals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TFW (Tribal For the Win!)

[Zoan]

I might actually play a tribal human/sun runner again. No more tribemates finding dumb reasons to go hang out in Tuluk for weeks at a time, and may actually embrace the 'nomad' lifestyle.

Feel the tribalness... Be a tribal! Go tribals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TFW (Tribal For the Win!)

When I play a Seik, jimmies are rustled.

[HavokBlue]

I'm not saying people should play in that new tribe that opened because that's against the rules but...

[slvrmoontiger]

They could always play in the old tribes that have existed for a long time and have been open. I mean that's up to people to decide. There are more choices than Allanak and Red Storm though. Look at all your options when creating a character. That's what I normally do.

[Eurynomos]

Having helped with the revamp of Arabet and Seik docs, i'd heartily recommend people to fill out the human tribal ranks. They're awesome. Trust in Nomos.

[Zoan]

Having helped with the revamp of Arabet and Seik docs, i'd heartily recommend people to fill out the human tribal ranks. They're awesome. Trust in Nomos.

I am NEVER satisfied with my other clanmates though. I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to enjoying this game.

[Naruto]

Having helped with the revamp of Arabet and Seik docs, i'd heartily recommend people to fill out the human tribal ranks. They're awesome. Trust in Nomos.

Roundears suck.  (No offense meant Eury)
Desert elves are the rulers of every terrain. Go and rule the northlands.

[Attana]

Having helped with the revamp of Arabet and Seik docs, i'd heartily recommend people to fill out the human tribal ranks. They're awesome. Trust in Nomos.

What Nomos said.

[Narf]

Having helped with the revamp of Arabet and Seik docs, i'd heartily recommend people to fill out the human tribal ranks. They're awesome. Trust in Nomos.

Do we get a preview at all of any of the changes/updates? Cause I'm really curious now.

[slvrmoontiger]

Having helped with the revamp of Arabet and Seik docs, i'd heartily recommend people to fill out the human tribal ranks. They're awesome. Trust in Nomos.

It was a huge help and the docs have become better. I'd still like to see more development of the Arabet docs. The Seik ones have history and story behind there's... The Arabet ones just have some believe this and that. I'd like to see some sort of documentation for Arabet that supports the whole theory of them believing the sprung from the Red, something along those lines would give Arabeti players a history to hold onto and something to say where they came from as a people.

[Iiyola]

If Sun Runners are desert elves, are ATV grass elves?

[Pale Horse]

If Sun Runners are desert elves, are ATV grass elves?

Whatcha be smokin', mahn?

[HavokBlue]

[Zoan]

Mah name is Matoya and I got you some 'erb...

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You know, I think that Northron culture is still something you can immerse yourself in, within the confines of a village setting as opposed to the city politics. You can still be a proudly inked, southron hating Northron, so that part of the experience isn't gone at all. All Tuluk's closing has done is focus political roleplay to the south. Aside from that, it really hasn't done anything at all to the world. Every non-political role you would have played in the North can still be played, and you still have the support of a Northron setting as well.

I'm not sure if Staff has considered it, but I don't think it would hurt to have one Northron Templar stationed in the village either, along with a cadre of Legionnaires. The staff-side support could be gathered under one umbrella for the North and handled by one or two staff members, who would handle Tulukian responses to Southron aggression, as well as day to day operations in Morian's.

[Taven]

You know, I think that Northron culture is still something you can immerse yourself in, within the confines of a village setting as opposed to the city politics. You can still be a proudly inked, southron hating Northron, so that part of the experience isn't gone at all. All Tuluk's closing has done is focus political roleplay to the south. Aside from that, it really hasn't done anything at all to the world. Every non-political role you would have played in the North can still be played, and you still have the support of a Northron setting as well.

I'm not sure if Staff has considered it, but I don't think it would hurt to have one Northron Templar stationed in the village either, along with a cadre of Legionnaires. The staff-side support could be gathered under one umbrella for the North and handled by one or two staff members, who would handle Tulukian responses to Southron aggression, as well as day to day operations in Morian's.

Staff have said that you can still make Tuluki PCs, but the new starting location will be Morin's. So yes, people can certainly explore the Tuluki mindset. You want to play a proud, Sun-King lovin', star-showing Tuluki? Go for it. You want to play a disillusioned, bitter, cast-out Tuluki? That's an option too. You want to play a Tuluki far from home, struggling for survival in the greater world? There's a lot of greater world out there. So yes, there are still options and concepts that can be explored.

That said, it IS a great loss that the inner-city political role-play is gone. It IS a great loss that the city is closed. I think mostly, people are trying not to dwell on that.

As to Morin's... Staff seem to be focused on consolodating PCs outside of the Gol. I wouldn't go there expecting it to be a northern version of, say, Storm. Think of it as more of a Cenyr. IE, a place mostly just to travel through on your way to somewhere else. Since Morin's is a Kadian outpost, I don't know that having a templar stationed there makes sense. I also don't know that they'd have enough to do, when they're cut off from all political role-play. I imagine it would be very lonely having no peers and no significant plots to persue, which is probably why all the templars that Tuluk did have had to all store.

[Nyr]

I'm not sure if Staff has considered it, but I don't think it would hurt to have one Northron Templar stationed in the village either, along with a cadre of Legionnaires. The staff-side support could be gathered under one umbrella for the North and handled by one or two staff members, who would handle Tulukian responses to Southron aggression, as well as day to day operations in Morian's.

We have not considered it because it would defeat the purpose of what we have done and why we did it.

We are no more managing the day to day operations in Morin's than we are managing the day to day operations in Red Storm.  These are outposts or backwater locations and should not require direct staff oversight.  Instead, we will provide smaller investments in the realm of animations, new content, and related plots.  Any "Tuluki(an?) responses to South(ron?) aggression" can and will be handled on an as-needed basis by southern staff or other associated staff members.  That "as-needed" is "as-needed by staff," not "as-requested by players."

[Desertman]

I for one really like the idea of Morin's. A little village on the edge of a horribly dangerous forest.....can you be any more of a gritty ranger's wet dream? I think not. Love it.

[Bushranger]

If backwater locations require little or no staff oversight perhaps Red Storm East can re-open it's gates? YAY!!

[Desertman]

If backwater locations require little or no staff oversight perhaps Red Storm East can re-open it's gates? YAY!!

Alas, I never got to visit her before she was closed. I always wanted to, I just had no reason to ever go with any of my PC's.

[Marauder Moe]

Huh?  RSE wasn't "closed" but rather "occupied".

[HavokBlue]

RSE has a specific kind of oversight

im so funny

[chuci]

It'd be neat if RSE's current residents were willing to trade with the outside world and opened RSE's gates to do so.

[BadSkeelz]

Pretty sure there's some "Find out IC" information about that that might surprise you. I think.

[Cind]

It'd be neat if RSE's current residents were willing to trade with the outside world and opened RSE's gates to do so.

Lol

Yeah, let's start "trading."

[LauraMars]

Pretty sure there's some "Find out IC" information about that that might surprise you. I think.

Or you could just read the history page!

1575 (Year 35 Age 21)
Several merchant houses make silt skimmer expeditions into the Sea of Silt, pressing into the unknown reaches south of Red Storm. Sometime during the trip, they attract the attention of the enigmatic and impossibly large Silt Giants, also known as "true giants." The giants chase the skimmer expedition back to shore, making landfall in Red Storm East. Over the course of the next few years, a few giants, so tall that their silhouettes are visible for miles, settle in Red Storm East, driving out the farmers and workers who, until then, produced much of Allanak's grain. Famine sweeps through the southern parts of the known world as grain becomes all but unavailable in Allanak and elsewhere.

[BadSkeelz]

I do believe there's been developments since then. Or maybe I dreamed them. Hard to tell sometimes.

[Clearsighted]

You know, I think that Northron culture is still something you can immerse yourself in, within the confines of a village setting as opposed to the city politics. You can still be a proudly inked, southron hating Northron, so that part of the experience isn't gone at all. All Tuluk's closing has done is focus political roleplay to the south. Aside from that, it really hasn't done anything at all to the world. Every non-political role you would have played in the North can still be played, and you still have the support of a Northron setting as well.

I'm not sure if Staff has considered it, but I don't think it would hurt to have one Northron Templar stationed in the village either, along with a cadre of Legionnaires. The staff-side support could be gathered under one umbrella for the North and handled by one or two staff members, who would handle Tulukian responses to Southron aggression, as well as day to day operations in Morian's.

Ugh. No. The removal of Northern templars, especially lirathans, is the one thing that makes the North more tolerable these days.

[Zoan]

The Sun King is always watching, Clearsighted.

Even in that heathen city-state.

[HavokBlue]

Lirathans have been absent for a while, even before Tuluk closed.

[Taven]

Ugh. No. The removal of Northern templars, especially lirathans, is the one thing that makes the North more tolerable these days.

Hm, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you probably haven't played in Tuluk in...oh...a real life year and a half, at the least? Because that's when Lirathans were last in the game. But hey, if two weeks if it being closed is making it the good old 'these days' for you, where things are 'tolerable,' don't let me burst your bubble.

Also, your Allanaki-lovin', Sun King hatin', torture-expertin' PC might just looooove to rub some good ol' fashioned purple salt crystals in them red bloody wounds, but I like to think we as players avoid such things. Can we keep the hate IC, or at least wait a RL year before tossing out accusations? Because come on, dude. The players of Tuluki templars lost their PC in OOC circumstances beyond their control, and through no fault of their own. I don't care where or what you RP, you have to admit that really sucks. I'm sure it really hurts, too.

[ibusoe]

Hm, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you probably haven't played in Tuluk in...oh...a real life year and a half, at the least? Because that's when Lirathans were last in the game. But hey, if two weeks if it being closed is making it the good old 'these days' for you, where things are 'tolerable,' don't let me burst your bubble.

Also, your Allanaki-lovin', Sun King hatin', torture-expertin' PC might just looooove to rub some good ol' fashioned purple salt crystals in them red bloody wounds, but I like to think we as players avoid such things. Can we keep the hate IC, or at least wait a RL year before tossing out accusations? Because come on, dude. The players of Tuluki templars lost their PC in OOC circumstances beyond their control, and through no fault of their own. I don't care where or what you RP, you have to admit that really sucks. I'm sure it really hurts, too.

Spoken like a boss. 

Honestly, this whole Tuluk-closing show has been about the most smoothly orchestrated change in my tenure here. 

Were some players adversely affected?  Yes. 

It's cool that not only do the staff seem cognizant of that and sympathetic, but also they're allowing us to criticize the changes they've made and they're allowing that the rollout wasn't completely perfect.

I've already started to notice positive effects from the change.  Some parts of the game are supposed to be empty, they're still mostly empty.

It's the populated places that are becoming more populated, and the outskirts that are supposed to have a smattering of people are now for the first time actually having the smattering of drifters that they're supposed to have,. 

And rules are a bit more clear.  Staff are planning to focus on Allanak, so if you want to be part of the big sexy game plots then Allanak is set up for that.  And if you want to play more of a drifter there are plenty of designated areas for us to congregate where you shall see not so much as a stray Templar.

Imperfect perhaps.  I think timing is good because the big change is coinciding with a surge of new players, and not only that but new players who seem to understand what the game has to offer and the traditions of the game.

If anything, I think the staff should do an outreach to players who were adversely affected by Tuluk's closing just so that the whole thing doesn't look like a deliberate attempt to marginalize their enjoyment of the game.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff did invite northern players to get in communication and work out plans for further enjoyment. Whether continuing their current PC or starting a new one. I heard good things from those I know who got a reply. (I didn't, but then I wasn't a sponsored role and I think I misfiled it anyhow).

[Taven]

Honestly, this whole Tuluk-closing show has been about the most smoothly orchestrated change in my tenure here.  Were some players adversely affected?  Yes.  It's cool that not only do the staff seem cognizant of that and sympathetic, but also they're allowing us to criticize the changes they've made and they're allowing that the rollout wasn't completely perfect.

If anything, I think the staff should do an outreach to players who were adversely affected by Tuluk's closing just so that the whole thing doesn't look like a deliberate attempt to marginalize their enjoyment of the game.

BadSkeelz has good words to say on this. To add to that a little...

When it comes to staff and northern players in terms of the actual change, I think both sides have been mature about it, from everything I've seen. Staff seemed to really want to reiterate that if they didn't contact you, you could contact them. We didn't have any players raging publicly. There was disappointment, though. And when I say "it really sucks and hurts," I think that's true. Because there were a lot of plots in the north that just suddenly...won't happen. There's a lot of characters' story that just...will never be told. So I guess what I'm saying is, that while I do believe staff tried to make it as painless as possible, something like that still has to hurt anyways. So sensitivity from the greater playerbase is good stuff!

Most of you are doing just fine with that.

I've already started to notice positive effects from the change.  Some parts of the game are supposed to be empty, they're still mostly empty.

It's the populated places that are becoming more populated, and the outskirts that are supposed to have a smattering of people are now for the first time actually having the smattering of drifters that they're supposed to have,. 

Imperfect perhaps.  I think timing is good because the big change is coinciding with a surge of new players, and not only that but new players who seem to understand what the game has to offer and the traditions of the game.

The "Who" numbers have been crazy lately in a good way, that's for sure. And do I think that the added numbers could be good for the places where people are going? Yeah, absolutely. More players is going to equate to more fun, generally speaking. It allows for more opportunities. The hardest thing about being a PC with ideas, and goals, and plans is not having minions and allies to do them with. And, of course, there's always the enemy counterweight.

So we'll see how this works. Can I say I'm whole-heartedly embracing the change? Maybe not. Can I say that I am curious to see what happens? Yes, definitely. Can you tell that I not-so-secretly hope that Tuluk opens again eventually? If you can't tell that, you've got your eyes closed and your ears plugged, because these aren't mere hintin' hemotes about that. But in the meanwhile, we'll see how things go.

[Clearsighted]

Ugh. No. The removal of Northern templars, especially lirathans, is the one thing that makes the North more tolerable these days.

Hm, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you probably haven't played in Tuluk in...oh...a real life year and a half, at the least?

More like 3 years. Anyhow. I'm sure the northern templars will be treated very well by staff and compensated in such ways that we need not feel sorry for them.

But I don't regret that they're gone. Taken from a cultural and thematic baseline, given how the respective roles were written and meant to be realized, Southern templars are vastly more interesting. They're more overtly designed to be 'human': fallible, corruptible, cowardly or courageous, etc. The northern templars were basically written towards an idealized archetype, which might work in a book, a movie or as a NPC, but was rarely exciting to RP around.

I'm always fascinated by southern templars, because there are so many ways to bring them to life (are they a bureaucrat or a warrior? incompetent, pragmatic or naive? Stoic or epicurean?) and some have been amazing in the past. With Jihaens, it was basically seen one, seen em all - the grim, warrior saint.

I won't touch on lirathans since apparently they haven't been a thing for a while.

[HavokBlue]

Jihaens have also not been a thing for a while.

As of last year, the two orders merged. PC templars were neither jihaen nor lirathan.

[MeTekillot]

if tuluk is closed, where we will get kung-fu? will there be a dojo in morin's?

[bcw81]

Ugh. No. The removal of Northern templars, especially lirathans, is the one thing that makes the North more tolerable these days.

Hm, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you probably haven't played in Tuluk in...oh...a real life year and a half, at the least?

More like 3 years. Anyhow. I'm sure the northern templars will be treated very well by staff and compensated in such ways that we need not feel sorry for them.

But I don't regret that they're gone. Taken from a cultural and thematic baseline, given how the respective roles were written and meant to be realized, Southern templars are vastly more interesting. They're more overtly designed to be 'human': fallible, corruptible, cowardly or courageous, etc. The northern templars were basically written towards an idealized archetype, which might work in a book, a movie or as a NPC, but was rarely exciting to RP around.

I'm always fascinated by southern templars, because there are so many ways to bring them to life (are they a bureaucrat or a warrior? incompetent, pragmatic or naive? Stoic or epicurean?) and some have been amazing in the past. With Jihaens, it was basically seen one, seen em all - the grim, warrior saint.

I won't touch on lirathans since apparently they haven't been a thing for a while.

You do not seem to have a firm knowledge of Tuluk, its people, or its Templarate. It was -very- rare you would find a perfect Tuluki Templar, and the last six were all 'flawed' in their own ways.

One was devoted to their work so much she hardly had a personal life, one was so foppish and vacant you might have recognized him closer to a Fale than a 'warrior saint', one was so bent around power that it caused him to forget everything else, one was a mind addled sociopath, one was a cocky arrogant fool, and one was so focused on vengeance that he hardly saw anything else unless it was through his one tether to the world.

I mean, basically what you're saying Clearsighted could be said 100% about Allanaki Templars too - They're all despotic sorcerer-warriors who always want to throw you in the arena for the slightest crimes. It's not true, and yes, it may be the case from time to time, it's not the case most of the time.

[Clearsighted]

Ugh. No. The removal of Northern templars, especially lirathans, is the one thing that makes the North more tolerable these days.

Hm, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you probably haven't played in Tuluk in...oh...a real life year and a half, at the least?

More like 3 years. Anyhow. I'm sure the northern templars will be treated very well by staff and compensated in such ways that we need not feel sorry for them.

But I don't regret that they're gone. Taken from a cultural and thematic baseline, given how the respective roles were written and meant to be realized, Southern templars are vastly more interesting. They're more overtly designed to be 'human': fallible, corruptible, cowardly or courageous, etc. The northern templars were basically written towards an idealized archetype, which might work in a book, a movie or as a NPC, but was rarely exciting to RP around.

I'm always fascinated by southern templars, because there are so many ways to bring them to life (are they a bureaucrat or a warrior? incompetent, pragmatic or naive? Stoic or epicurean?) and some have been amazing in the past. With Jihaens, it was basically seen one, seen em all - the grim, warrior saint.

I won't touch on lirathans since apparently they haven't been a thing for a while.

You do not seem to have a firm knowledge of Tuluk, its people, or its Templarate. It was -very- rare you would find a perfect Tuluki Templar, and the last six were all 'flawed' in their own ways.

One was devoted to their work so much she hardly had a personal life, one was so foppish and vacant you might have recognized him closer to a Fale than a 'warrior saint', one was so bent around power that it caused him to forget everything else, one was a mind addled sociopath, one was a cocky arrogant fool, and one was so focused on vengeance that he hardly saw anything else unless it was through his one tether to the world.

I mean, basically what you're saying Clearsighted could be said 100% about Allanaki Templars too - They're all despotic sorcerer-warriors who always want to throw you in the arena for the slightest crimes. It's not true, and yes, it may be the case from time to time, it's not the case most of the time.

I thought about including a disclaimer in my post, that it really was aimed at their theme, and wasn't meant as an indictment of the players, or anyone you listed, but I knew someone would get twisted up about it anyways.

Suffice to say, in my opinion, the northern templarate was written within far more narrow parameters than the southern. I think they contributed less to the game world around them, partially because they had less room to maneuver.

If you disagree, fine. It's not worth debating since they're gone anyways, and clearly some are a bit too sensitive about it. I'm glad that people eventually got around to taking them in slightly less predictable directions.

[Fathi]

It's totally possible--and totally okay--to dislike a concept/archetype in the game and be glad that archetype is gone. That doesn't automatically make it an attack on how people were playing their PCs. And it's definitely not "tossing out accusations."

I have no idea why this guy is getting dogpiled on. I hated Lirathans as an archetype, too. I complained about them all the time. It had nothing to do with anybody's portrayal of their characters.

I played with some great ones, even! But yeah, the whole "exceptionally pure white-robed virginal untouched princess" trope grated on me, because I always thought it didn't jive too well in a word without sexism and seemed perilously close to importing real world moralities and gender roles. That doesn't mean I thought they were all playing terribly. The role was just defined as one that I personally did not like.

[BadSkeelz]

There's some poor attitudes on both sides of this thread, is my feeling.

I personally dislike Clearsighted's attitude towards some things (like saying people don't need sympathy because they happened to be playing sponsored roles at the time, which is just kind of dickish), and think he's just wrong to say that every Templar is the same.

That said, I do think Tuluk had some problems on a fundamental level, of which debatable character archetypes were just a symptom. I've said elsewhere how I felt it was too safe and how this might have caused population and conflict to disperse, but also... Tuluk felt too defined to me, too documented. That so much was already written down of how people behave  and act and perform that it was daunting to try and come up with a character that "fit" into Tuluk in to one of the neat little precarved molds. I find it infinitely easier to create characters that could exist in Allanak. This was especially true for me when I started playing three years ago, before Tuluki docs started getting their revamp. And it still took me a good week of work to come up with a pretty basic character concept that I thought could exist in Tuluk, where I'm able to do the same thing in Allanak in an afternoon. Tuluk was just harder to digest, and on some levels just didn't taste as good to me.

[Taven]

More like 3 years. Anyhow. I'm sure the northern templars will be treated very well by staff and compensated in such ways that we need not feel sorry for them.

But I don't regret that they're gone. Taken from a cultural and thematic baseline, given how the respective roles were written and meant to be realized, Southern templars are vastly more interesting. They're more overtly designed to be 'human': fallible, corruptible, cowardly or courageous, etc. The northern templars were basically written towards an idealized archetype, which might work in a book, a movie or as a NPC, but was rarely exciting to RP around.

I'm always fascinated by southern templars, because there are so many ways to bring them to life (are they a bureaucrat or a warrior? incompetent, pragmatic or naive? Stoic or epicurean?) and some have been amazing in the past. With Jihaens, it was basically seen one, seen em all - the grim, warrior saint.

I won't touch on lirathans since apparently they haven't been a thing for a while.

Well, alright, I'll try to tackle this one.


I don't think your problem is actually with Tuluk's templars. I think your problem is actually with Tuluki culture (though feel free to comment on that). But I'm going forward with that assumption. So, let's start by taking a step back and talking about what people don't like about Tuluk.

You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong here. I think people don't like the different cultural feel. In Allanak, Templars are just the top dog. They want it, they take it, and there's less pretense about it. In Tuluki, however, Muk Utep has basically a cult. The publicly presented view is that the Sun King loves and cares about you and His Faithful are there to protect you. All of the nastiness of templars takes a subtler view. It's supposed to be underneath the surface, hinted at, but never directly in your face. This is also combined with how approachable the nobility is. In Allanak, you bow and scrape to your nobles. Not so in Tuluk, where they might sit in the common bar with you. It can make things seem, sometimes, as if Tuluk is not an oppressive regieme at all, but in fact actually something with happy rainbow sparkles, which seems out of place for Armageddon.

Am I about on par there with the thought-process of those who passionately dislike Tuluk? Feel free to clue me in if I'm not.

But let's take a step forward from there. Some of the challenges with the above are still present, however, the north of three years ago and the north of a month ago are very different places.

The north underwent a massive documentation rehaul. As mentioned by others, the templarate was united into a single unified order. Uaptal, the mount-breeding house, was killed off by a joint Winrothol-Tenneshi venture, and its assets were divided between them. Negean was essentially dismantled, getting absorbed into the Faithful. Each House has a slightly different take and focus as a result. The Hlum do not exist at all, and to mention them may well be considered treason. They were wiped out because Allanaki spies infiltrated Tuluk, and the Lirathans (this is prior to unification) didn't like that so much. The Hlum were locked in their estate, which was burned to the ground with them inside it, pounding to get out.

There's been a conscious effort to take some of Tuluk's subtly out of it, to make it "gritter", as it were. The shadow-artist system was re-vamped to include more gritty options and make it easier to use. Tuluk is a place where you can literally hire someone to beat the shit out of someone you don't like (though with restrictions). Assassination, thuggery, and theft are an intrinsic part of the culture. Of course, that's an area of contention too--Does a system that relies on the the impartiality of the Faithful really work? There's actually some pretty heavy discussion threads on that already. In addition to that, however, there's been an effort to bring gritter PCs into Tuluk, fleshing out the Warrens and so on. Friel's, which used to be such a lovely place, got filled up with southern squatters and midden heaps.

Did all that effort succeed in addressing the concerns of those who disliked Tuluk? I'm not the most qualified to make that judgement, but I think the results were positive but mixed. What I can tell you is that last month's Tuluk is the most active and vibrant it's been in years. So something was being done right, even if any lingering challenges remained.

[Taven]

....it was daunting to try and come up with a character that "fit" into Tuluk in to one of the neat little precarved molds. I find it infinitely easier to create characters that could exist in Allanak. This was especially true for me when I started playing three years ago, before Tuluki docs started getting their revamp. And it still took me a good week of work to come up with a pretty basic character concept that I thought could exist in Tuluk, where I'm able to do the same thing in Allanak in an afternoon. Tuluk was just harder to digest, and on some levels just didn't taste as good to me.

Huh. I don't think you're alone in this feeling, because I've talked to people who are pretty heavily intimidated by Tuluk. I guess I've just never been sure why.

What documentation is it that is causing such concern? What is giving the impression that you can't effectively make a Tuluki version of any concept that might work in Allanak?

[Clearsighted]

There's some poor attitudes on both sides of this thread, is my feeling.

I personally dislike Clearsighted's attitude towards some things (like saying people don't need sympathy because they happened to be playing sponsored roles at the time, which is just kind of dickish), and think he's just wrong to say that every Templar is the same.

That wasn't what I said. What I meant was that they're clearly already working closely with staff. They're playing the most important sponsored role in the game. Hence, I'm sure staff treated them right, and will make it up to them. If you think staff just screwed them over, without any kind of communication or understanding, then I guess I would feel worse for them. But that seems unrealistic for a role that has more staff communication than any other.

I didn't say every templar was the same either. Just that theme for both was narrower and more constraining.

If you disagree with me, fine. But I'm not your straw man. Stop trying twist everything into an indictment of the players, when I've repeatedly stressed the theme and cultural expectations of the role as being what I found lacking. I know players will do the best they think they can with any given role, and all no doubt went into it with high hopes and ambitions.

I'm still glad they're gone.

[Clearsighted]

Well, alright, I'll try to tackle this one.

I don't think your problem is actually with Tuluk's templars. I think your problem is actually with Tuluki culture (though feel free to comment on that). But I'm going forward with that assumption. So, let's start by taking a step back and talking about what people don't like about Tuluk.

etc etc etc

I'm hesitant on how to 'tackle' this. For the record, I have problems with numerous strata of Tuluki society. I found it as a whole poorly designed and poorly realized (meritocratic AND caste-based, intrigue/political/assassination AND lirathans). But I don't want to get into it.

Not because I'm certain of being right - I'm not. I haven't played the game in three years, and you've already pointed out how they did away with lirathans. I'm hazy on how much was done away with. If there were still male martial artists and female psionics, etc. But it's besides the point. Tuluk is closed. I think it was the right decision by staff, and that much of Tuluk's social and cultural atmosphere as written, did not turn out in practice, to be fun and engaging. I guess you could ask most anyone that ever apped a Tuluk noble without storing a month later.

But I don't want to debate this. Because my facts are three years out of date, and the matter has already been settled. Nothing more could be done. I just want to say that I respect your opinion on the matter. I personally feel the game is better off. But I think your feeling otherwise is completely valid.

I will assert, however, that my opinions are not born from not understanding Tuluk well enough. Although it is extremely suggestive that people need to be forced to learn Tuluk, and have it explained to them in pages and pages of text, whereas even a newbie can pick up Allanak in five minutes. That might've been part of its problem. It took too much to get. While I did get it, and at the risk of not wasting each other's time over beating a dead horse, I'm satisfied with where things are now, in game.

This is me respectfully disengaging.

[BadSkeelz]

Huh. I don't think you're alone in this feeling, because I've talked to people who are pretty heavily intimidated by Tuluk. I guess I've just never been sure why.

What documentation is it that is causing such concern? What is giving the impression that you can't effectively make a Tuluki version of any concept that might work in Allanak?

Personally I like Talia's hypothesis that Allanak is an easier place for the young frustrated American male tea-party fuck-you psyche to step in to and cut muthafuckas up with bone swords

To more seriously answer the question.... Criminals seemed like a very daunting thing to try and attempt. Not impossibly, but you'd have to come up with a decidedly different flavor of criminal to justify your existence in Tuluk. I liked to think of Shadowartists are Shadow Runners, corporate mercenaries versus the more street-level and visceral thuggery you'd see in Allanak.

I also spent an inordinate amount of time thinking "Man, the Groot Circle sounds awesome, but drums are kind of a stupid instrument for my concept and I wouldn't really want to play it or try to justify it..."

More generally, I found the idea of this super-ordered city that didn't really seem challenged by anything to be rather off-putting. "If everything is so well run and people get along, what's there to actually do?" Tuluk sounded so high-culture and detailed that it didn't seem like something a newb could easily pick up and do well. That it would work better in animations, or in a novel, and that trying to play it yourself ran the risk of mucking it up "the vision" and getting yelled at for it. There are also the player-created preconceptions of how Tuluk works, that it's all happy-go-lucky tea-sipping hippies. Largely false, but still things I had to try and break through mentally so I could engage with the City.

Personally I was also hamstrung by my OOC desire to play a "decent" character, instead of the dour, honorably malevolent asshole I'd been playing in Allanak for a three years previous. Apparently I can't exclusively play "nice" characters and have fun in Armageddon. Thank goodness for Pillars of Eternity and Cruelty points.

When I started in March of 2013, I can remember going south for three reasons:
1) Allanak had a flag graphic on its page and was thus more immediately engaging
2) The history page had more recent and dramatic events listed in Allanak, so I thought there'd be more action
3) Allanak felt more like the prototypical "Dark Sun" brutal city state that I've heard about through the years. Tuluk, as it's own creation, just didn't have the same ability to play on references and hook me.

I don't think I could really point to one thing in Tuluk and say "This is why I didn't want to play in Tuluk." It was a whole range of things that just didn't click with me.

[Taven]

But I don't want to debate this. Because my facts are three years out of date, and the matter has already been settled. Nothing more could be done. I just want to say that I respect your opinion on the matter. I personally feel the game is better off. But I think your feeling otherwise is completely valid.

This is me respectfully disengaging.

Your first post really rubbed me wrong, but I can respect what you're saying in this one. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and outline your opinion, I do appreciate it.

[HavokBlue]

Not that it matters anymore but I'll point out for the bajillionth time that there was an entire noble house in Tuluk with a relatively long-lived PC at the helm more than willing to support and supply criminal activities both inside and outside the shadow artist system.

[hyzhenhok]

I didn't find playing a criminal in Tuluk any more difficult than Allanak. Thanks to the night-time crimcode system, it was easy to play a burgeoning criminal "outside the system." Most of the problems like you are totally screwed if a PC spots you in the act even once are just as true in Nak. Actually, I found things easier in Tuluk, but I won't go into the nitty gritty code details of why.

I once played a pickpocket where I got steal extremely high before I slipped up and got nabbed by NPC guards, and the templar bought my "I didn't know how to contact you besides letting myself be brought to you" and inked me and released me. (This was before the new shadow artist system was implemented, but I can't imagine how that would really change things. In fact I really thought it would improve things because said pickpocket ended up having not much to do after she was inked and joined that certain noble house.) There was another instance where the same PC had a close call doing non-contracted crime and again the templarate gave her the benefit of the doubt and let her off scott free. From my perspective I have no idea where this idea that Tuluk was hostile environment for crime (more so than Allanak, anyway) came from.

[Molten Heart]

if tuluk is closed, where we will get kung-fu? will there be a dojo in morin's?

dwarves... the ruff circle clan

[bcw81]

I didn't find playing a criminal in Tuluk any more difficult than Allanak. Thanks to the night-time crimcode system, it was easy to play a burgeoning criminal "outside the system." Most of the problems like you are totally screwed if a PC spots you in the act even once are just as true in Nak. Actually, I found things easier in Tuluk, but I won't go into the nitty gritty code details of why.

I once played a pickpocket where I got steal extremely high before I slipped up and got nabbed by NPC guards, and the templar bought my "I didn't know how to contact you besides letting myself be brought to you" and inked me and released me. (This was before the new shadow artist system was implemented, but I can't imagine how that would really change things. In fact I really thought it would improve things because said pickpocket ended up having not much to do after she was inked and joined that certain noble house.) There was another instance where the same PC had a close call doing non-contracted crime and again the templarate gave her the benefit of the doubt and let her off scott free. From my perspective I have no idea where this idea that Tuluk was hostile environment for crime (more so than Allanak, anyway) came from.

Just want to say that at least some Templars were inking people into the Levy for being caught stealing instead of inking them as high profile artists. At least once that came into play.

[Rathustra]

[Taven]

[rearranged and paraphrased, be warned!!]

Tuluk

• Criminals daunting, required different flavor. Corporate mercenary type criminals instead of street-level thuggary
• Concerns over Groot and drums
• Tuluk seems too ordered and not challenged by everything, too well run, people get along too well
• Tuluk sounded too high-cultured and detailed
• Player perceptions of Tuluk as happy-go-lucky tea-sipping hippies

When I started in March of 2013, I can remember going south for three reasons:

1) Allanak had a flag graphic on its page and was thus more immediately engaging
2) The history page had more recent and dramatic events listed in Allanak, so I thought there'd be more action
3) Allanak felt more like the prototypical "Dark Sun" brutal city state that I've heard about through the years. Tuluk, as it's own creation, just didn't have the same ability to play on references and hook me.

I don't think I could really point to one thing in Tuluk and say "This is why I didn't want to play in Tuluk." It was a whole range of things that just didn't click with me.

So the list above for Tuluk were your perceptions, and why it was harder to get you north to begin with. Did you find the actual experience of playing in Tuluk matched up with what you expected? How was it the same/different then how you thought it would be based on the list?

[ibusoe]

The "Who" numbers have been crazy lately in a good way, that's for sure. And do I think that the added numbers could be good for the places where people are going? Yeah, absolutely. More players is going to equate to more fun, generally speaking. It allows for more opportunities. The hardest thing about being a PC with ideas, and goals, and plans is not having minions and allies to do them with. And, of course, there's always the enemy counterweight.

So we'll see how this works. Can I say I'm whole-heartedly embracing the change? Maybe not. Can I say that I am curious to see what happens? Yes, definitely. Can you tell that I not-so-secretly hope that Tuluk opens again eventually? If you can't tell that, you've got your eyes closed and your ears plugged, because these aren't mere hintin' hemotes about that. But in the meanwhile, we'll see how things go.

Man, am I happy with the way the game is unfolding. 

I was about to start a new thread for this, but this might be a better spot.

Is it just me, or has the recent re-org really just fixed *so many* problems with the game?

I love everything that's happening in Allanak right now.  This is how Allanak is supposed to be - gritty, dangerous.  Crowded. 
The changes to the wilderness has had the combined effects of having more low-powered mobs for noobs to have fun hunting, as well as a good spattering of genuinely dangerous animals. 

For new players, I hope that you guys are enjoying this.  This is kind of a golden age for the game.  So many things that have been plaguing the game for years have either receded or been generally corrected. 

[Rokal]

The "Who" numbers have been crazy lately in a good way, that's for sure. And do I think that the added numbers could be good for the places where people are going? Yeah, absolutely. More players is going to equate to more fun, generally speaking. It allows for more opportunities. The hardest thing about being a PC with ideas, and goals, and plans is not having minions and allies to do them with. And, of course, there's always the enemy counterweight.

So we'll see how this works. Can I say I'm whole-heartedly embracing the change? Maybe not. Can I say that I am curious to see what happens? Yes, definitely. Can you tell that I not-so-secretly hope that Tuluk opens again eventually? If you can't tell that, you've got your eyes closed and your ears plugged, because these aren't mere hintin' hemotes about that. But in the meanwhile, we'll see how things go.

Man, am I happy with the way the game is unfolding. 

I was about to start a new thread for this, but this might be a better spot.

Is it just me, or has the recent re-org really just fixed *so many* problems with the game?

I love everything that's happening in Allanak right now.  This is how Allanak is supposed to be - gritty, dangerous.  Crowded. 
The changes to the wilderness has had the combined effects of having more low-powered mobs for noobs to have fun hunting, as well as a good spattering of genuinely dangerous animals. 

For new players, I hope that you guys are enjoying this.  This is kind of a golden age for the game.  So many things that have been plaguing the game for years have either receded or been generally corrected. 

As a newbie, I can assure you that I'm definitely having fun. Don't have an active char right now, but im totally looking forward to my future char coming up!

[wizturbo]

Judging by the fact that the number of players online at any given time seems to have doubled since Tuluk was closed, I think we all can agree this decision was a big win for the game.

[Marauder Moe]

Honestly, I think it's too early to tell if the change is good or bad.  It hasn't even been a month since Tuluk closed.  It will take time to see if these numbers are just a reaction to a new change or a long-term trend resulting from the new condensed PC/staff environment.

[Iiyola]

Judging by the fact that the number of players online at any given time seems to have doubled since Tuluk was closed, I think we all can agree this decision was a big win for the game.

[Delirium]

Honestly, I think it's too early to tell if the change is good or bad.  It hasn't even been a month since Tuluk closed.  It will take time to see if these numbers are just a reaction to a new change or a long-term trend resulting from the new condensed PC/staff environment.

Agreed. Though I hope it is indicative of a positive trend.

[RogueGunslinger]

Well, even without the bigger numbers, I'm noticing more people. The effect of one major city being gone is also being felt, not just excitement from players getting back into the game, so it's two-fold.