Languages and the Way

[HavokBlue]

I think needing someone to translate could be neat.

I also think playability trumps this. Realistically, this solely has to do with interactions between humans and desert elves. I don't want to be PK'd by a desert elf because my Charades skill wasn't high enough and I couldn't figure out what he wanted me to do while raiding me. I don't want another reason to limit my interactions with a desert elf to >shoot elf west because neither of us can communicate and it's 3AM so the odds of finding a translator in the middle of fuck-all nowhere Red Desert Land are slim to none.

[Patuk]

I'm just gonna sum up the argument of every post from here on out now, it's 1 am and I'm too sleep deprived for subtlety or social grace.

I mean...This is a straw man fallacy.  I provide very reasonable and clear ideas as to why language would be invalid via the Way.  Reasons that are generally sympatico with documentation or any sort of concept of psionics in Zalanthas or another fantasy setting similar.

But you find it irrelevant and unimportant, all the while providing no points to refute their validity.  Because you think it's fun to struggle to communicate with others in a RPI with a finite population.

Really, think about that for a minute.

'my side yay fun, so theirs must boo fun'

Something tells me wizturbo wants to pick the most fun of the two options as much as you do, and telling people he's deliberately trying to ruin things is just mean-spirited.

[Tetra]

Something tells me wizturbo wants to pick the most fun of the two options as much as you do, and telling people he's deliberately trying to ruin things is just mean-spirited.

I'm not saying anyone is ruining anything, and certainly not wizturbo.  I just think if you open a discussion, you can't insist on a mechanical change that flies in the face of a world setting -- just because you personally find it fun.

Cool, fun is great.  But have it make sense first.

[Patuk]

If you'll look at Rathustra's post, you may notice staff doesn't especially care either way. The Way's manner of working doesn't affect too much on a grand scale, and should anyone ask why thinfs are as they are right now, Rath's response would be, 'because we say they are.'

Now, I'm fine with either position, but wanting to change things up is hardly 'flying in the face of everything' the way you described. The setting doesn't hinge on Waying being as it is right now. It may well have been an accident, something overlooked, or something some bored guy entered into the engine at 3 am before falling asleep.

So, if you want to argue that language isn't the same as psionics, fine. You can make lots of arguments of that kind. But don't tell people your position is more valid than the other because it supposedly makes way more sense and is much more important than the other person's point of view, because we have an administrator saying that it is not.

[wizturbo]

Something as fantastical as a psionic communication system is hardly a topic where we're going to all come to some agreement on how it works. Your metaphysical interpretation of how psionics works is different than mine, I think you're wrong,  you think I'm wrong...  Okay.  We're at an impasse.

How do we move past this impasse?  I think at that point, you start taking other things into consideration.  Such as the impact it has on the game. I think the most compelling argument to make is whether or not creating a language barrier on the Way would enhance the game.  I understand that to you the metaphysical/world setting should dictate game systems.  So to you, the metaphysical debate is extremely important because it should, naturally, decide how the game systems should be built.   But I disagree.  I think the world setting should be adapted to create the best play experience for everyone involved.  In this case, I think having translators and language barriers is cool, and would make the game more gritty and fun.  

HavocBlue's example of desert elf raiders killing someone because they cannot communicate with them in pantomime properly is a cool scene in my opinion.  I don't think the desert elves necessarily have to kill someone for not speaking their language properly, that seems pretty extreme to me, but the conflict from that lack of communication is compelling to me.  Others are welcome to disagree on that, and I'd welcome that debate.  But, as I said above, I don't really care to argue the metaphysical on this, because I don't see it as being actionable, nor do I expect any consensus.

[Tetra]

If you'll look at Rathustra's post, you may notice staff doesn't especially care either way. The Way's manner of working doesn't affect too much on a grand scale, and should anyone ask why thinfs are as they are right now, Rath's response would be, 'because we say they are.'

Now, I'm fine with either position, but wanting to change things up is hardly 'flying in the face of everything' the way you described. The setting doesn't hinge on Waying being as it is right now. It may well have been an accident, something overlooked, or something some bored guy entered into the engine at 3 am before falling asleep.

So, if you want to argue that language isn't the same as psionics, fine. You can make lots of arguments of that kind. But don't tell people your position is more valid than the other because it supposedly makes way more sense and is much more important than the other person's point of view, because we have an administrator saying that it is not.

The only person who claimed their argument was more important or 'more interesting' was wizturbo.  All I said was my point is relevant to the discussion.  Considering my comment started this thread I think it's entirely fair that I put it into context.

All I'm saying is that discussing how the Way operates is important if you're going to change or insert a coded communication penalty into it.   Does that not make sense?  

Rathustra clarified the difference between inner monologue and thoughts(they're intrinsically connected concepts).  It's a little pointed of you to insinuate bias in a comment that to me seemed entirely participatory.

[bcw81]

You know, I'm not normally the type of person to get into these debates, but I agree with Tetra on this. Linguists are plenty useful, and can definitely be hired. I once played a Rinthi Pickpocket/Linguist who was hired by a player to do his translating when he went to trade in Luir's. Shit was fun, I translated, and it was fun for everyone.

At the same point, having to find that one person who has subguild linguist to talk to someone from the tablelands for you would be excruciating. Especially if you're the person in the tablelands where you hardly get any interaction outside your tribe to begin with.

So no, I don't like the idea of language-based Way.

I do, however, like the command emotes added to way message idea. I always hate using *stars* and -dashes- to denote feelings in a way message because I feel like I shouldn't, even when the helpfile says it's okay.

[wizturbo]

At the same point, having to find that one person who has subguild linguist to talk to someone from the tablelands for you would be excruciating. Especially if you're the person in the tablelands where you hardly get any interaction outside your tribe to begin with.

Fair point, I don't think subguild linguist is the only source of Allundean though.  Elves, half-elves, linguists, and anyone whose taken the time to learn allundean have access to the skill.  Also, desert elves are perfectly capable of learning Sirihish.  Most do, in my experience.

[Tetra]

How do we move past this impasse?  I think at that point, you start taking other things into consideration.  Such as the impact it has on the game. I think the most compelling argument to make is whether or not creating a language barrier on the Way would enhance the game.  I understand that to you the metaphysical/world setting should dictate game systems.  So to you, the metaphysical debate is extremely important because it should, naturally, decide how the game systems should be built.   But I disagree.  I think the world setting should be adapted to create the best play experience for everyone involved.  In this case, I think having translators and language barriers is cool, and would make the game more gritty and fun.  

HavocBlue's example of desert elf raiders killing someone because they cannot communicate with them in pantomime properly is a cool scene in my opinion.  I don't think the desert elves necessarily have to kill someone for not speaking their language properly, that seems pretty extreme to me, but the conflict from that lack of communication is compelling to me.  Others are welcome to disagree on that, and I'd welcome that debate.  But, as I said above, I don't really care to argue the metaphysical on this, because I don't see it as being actionable, nor do I expect any consensus.

Even talking about the impact on the game, we are at an impasse.

You think being unable to talk to a raider and dying because communication barrier is fun.

VS

Being able to Way the raider, convincing him to let you go, tricking him, scaring him into thinking you're a magicker, and continuing to play the PC you invested days of your life developing.

Which do you think is more interactive and facilitates roleplay?  The communication barrier?  I'm worried for people who think the first option is better.

Maybe you play to have your beloved PCs die in frustrating and ridiculous ways, but plenty of people don't.


Really, if you ask yourself what is more immersive for roleplay the answer is obvious.

[Erythil]

I got to play a linguist in several situations where it was actually useful to act as an interpreter, and it was fun, but it does basically require that both sides avoid using the obvious and easy solutions.

That said, I think playability reasons is a good argument to keep things as they are.