A reminder on racial roleplay re: Half Elves...

[Dakota]

I'm going to post this here... From the Docs...

As a bastard offspring of conflicting cultures, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a half-elf to be accepted anywhere.

Once more in bold...

As a bastard offspring of conflicting cultures, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a half-elf to be accepted anywhere.

I think that sums up all I need to say here.

edit: For all the (good and well-done and properly represented) roleplay hate vs elves... that does not and shouldn't mean half-elves are one step above since they can join Houses and Clans... They are -lower- than Elves in the regard to both human and elven cultures.

[HavokBlue]

This sounds like a complaint about something specific, in which case I would suggest, as always, using the request tool to file a Player Complaint instead of vaguebooking about the way other people are playing their PCs on the GDB.

[Dakota]

This sounds like a complaint about something specific, in which case I would suggest, as always, using the request tool to file a Player Complaint instead of vaguebooking about the way other people are playing their PCs on the GDB.

It's not at all actually. It's just a reminder to the PC population. Furthermore I'd be interested to know if anyone sees otherwise and if they do to discuss it here.

[HavokBlue]

dit: For all the (good and well-done and properly represented) roleplay hate vs elves... that does not and shouldn't mean half-elves are one step above since they can join Houses and Clans... They are -lower- than Elves in the regard to both human and elven cultures.

This is a generalization you need to be careful with and it comes across somewhat misleading.

Most clans that will hire half-elves will also hire elves, albeit reluctantly. Amos the Human might prefer Talia the Breed to Malik the Elf because Talia is only half-necker. Malik might prefer Talia to Amos because Talia is only half-roundear. On the other hand, both might despise the breed even more than the a wholeblooded individual of the opposite race because of what the breed represents. You as a player can make this decision for your PC.

[Nyr]

This sounds like a complaint about something specific, in which case I would suggest, as always, using the request tool to file a Player Complaint instead of vaguebooking about the way other people are playing their PCs on the GDB.

It's not at all actually. It's just a reminder to the PC population. Furthermore I'd be interested to know if anyone sees otherwise and if they do to discuss it here.

HavokBlue is in the right of it here.  If you are bringing up something this specific, it looks like you are complaining about someone's roleplay, specifically, which should be done via player complaint and not on the GDB.  If you have more to say apart from offering this sage warning, you probably should, because otherwise it is going to look like you are complaining about specific behavior in-game.

[Desertman]

I think it's important for people to remember when this comes up that the players of the PC's you see are almost always extreme exceptions to the rule when it comes to comparing them to the VNPC and even NPC populations.

This goes triple when you get into long-lived PC's.

It is extremely rare in Zalanthas, for example, to see a human man go out and hack down three raptor at once. It is not common. That PC has risen above the masses. He is the extreme exception in skill and ability, and thus most likely, respect he has garnered and receives.

There are long-lived PC elves that have risen to be Sergeant's and leaders in Houses. This is not typical for an elf in any way in the NPC and VNPC population. This an extreme exception. They have earned most likely what would be almost unheard of (statistically) amounts of respect and trust for an elf.

Half-elves that live a long time as PC's and become really successful etc....probably can be expected to be treated a lot better than your typical dirt-poor "documentation-outlined-typical" NPC and VNPC half-elves that make up the vast majority of half-elves in Zalanthas.

Remember, most PC's you see aren't held to the exact same standards as the NPC and VNPC population because they are "better", especially in the cases of long-lived PC's that are actually successful.

I do really love playing new half-elves though. When you are a new half-elf who hasn't earned any respect or clout through your IC deeds and accomplishments? Those are the good times.   But there is also something to be said for playing a long-lived successful half-elf that has earned a lot of respect and favors from people over the years. There's a little turning point in their existence and you can feel it when it you go from "Shitty fucking breed.", to, "That breed nobody fucks with even if they are thinking bad shit about them.". Hehe, it's beautiful.

(I went many years playing almost nothing but half-elves, and I still love playing them.)

[Barzalene]

This sounds like a complaint about something specific, in which case I would suggest, as always, using the request tool to file a Player Complaint instead of vaguebooking about the way other people are playing their PCs on the GDB.

It's not at all actually. It's just a reminder to the PC population. Furthermore I'd be interested to know if anyone sees otherwise and if they do to discuss it here.

HavokBlue is in the right of it here.  If you are bringing up something this specific, it looks like you are complaining about someone's roleplay, specifically, which should be done via player complaint and not on the GDB.  If you have more to say apart from offering this sage warning, you probably should, because otherwise it is going to look like you are complaining about specific behavior in-game.

Its good to have this come up though, because this is a place where we as a player base fall down on the job regularly. I promise I'm not referring to a specific event or player. This comes up constantly.

[Delirium]

Maybe it comes up often enough in different scenarios that it's worth a general reminder instead of trying to list out complaints?

Or yeah - what Barz said.

[slvrmoontiger]

The thing that I take issue with is OP took one sentence out of a lengthy page and tried to state that this one sentence is the end all be all and didn't seem to read the rest of the document. The document also says:

Code Select Expand

...half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end.
This is also stated:

Code Select Expand

If their audience (or society in general) accepts the half-elf, respects their deeds, or otherwise welcomes them, this may be perceived as an insult to his independence. NOTE: The two letter word IF. This means that it has the possibility to happen and is not as far and few between as you may think it is. It also indicates that most acceptance is done by great feats or great accomplishments. Becoming a Sergeant or a Life Sworn (Both do happen in clans and are not unheard of) in a clan is acceptances for a certain reason and also makes that breed someone that should be considered more "worthy" of acceptance than your run of the mill filthy breed that is uncultured and has no accomplishments to speak of.

[Barzalene]

Accomplishment isn't the issue. Its the humanizing. That is a problem. I mean service dogs can become segeants. And people love their service dogs. But they don't let them date their daughters or use their toothbrushes. And dogs are cuter than breeds.

[Aruven]

This is an interesting conversation to have, that I imagine will ultimately die out because we are humans.

Example: Lets face it, pretty much every one of us plays the 'upper-crust' echelons of whatever population we pick. We aren't that guy standing on the street in the same spot everyday. We don't play the game to do that. Even if you play a rinther, or a bynner, you're automatically from day 1 better than 70% of the game world around you and less expendable just because you are a PC and you will respond immediately (normally) upon being interacted with.

So I immediately reduce my prejudice, with this fact alone. Also, Longevity normally gets a good player into a comfortable position and routine. I've seen plenty of half-elves achieve this... to where its almost socially akward to be picking fights with them and their larger than life crew.

If the piece of poo is going to make my shoo stinky i'd rather not acknowledge its existence at all and avoid it than clean it up myself.

[KankWhisperer]

Accomplishment isn't the issue. Its the humanizing. That is a problem. I mean service dogs can become segeants. And people love their service dogs. But they don't let them date their daughters or use their toothbrushes. And dogs are cuter than breeds.

They do let them sleep in their beds, bury them, trust them to take care of kids, risk their lives to save them and so on. And kick someone's loyal dog and see what happens.

[whitt]

Begging for this not to turn into cElf derail #1838, but...

I think the glaring difference is between social scale for elves, breeds, and magickers.

The cause is simple.  The bias against breeds is purely a documentation issue.  Same problem with the bias against gemmed.  The bias against elves is because of impact to actual play experience.

Given that Murder.  Corruption.  Betrayal.  is always a risk regardless of the race of any PC you associate with...

Chum around with a breed or a gemmed and nothing will codedly happen to your PC.  There may be RP consequences from folks asking why you'd ever associate with such scum, but you never have to look over your shoulder wondering if the "things" you've worked so hard on for your character are likely to go missing just because you chose to engage with another PC.  

Elves on the other hand *will* lie, cheat, and steal if those players are playing to docs.  It's a very fair bet that if someone that isn't fresh out of the box and is playing an elf, they're doing it to play by the docs.  So chum around with an Elf and you're playing with fire.  Sure you might get a juicy mekillot burger out of it, but chances are better that you get a scrap of burnt meat -and- your stuff is gone.

Add to this the fact that (noobs excepted again) breed players are also very likely looking to play by the documents and want a roleplay challenge.  So there is a good chance that long-lived breed PC is a lot of OOC fun to be around.  That's hard to pass up because the documentation says so.  Week after week.

Basically, it's a human nature thing.  We can make excuses for ourselves and our characters to "get over" discriminatory bias pretty easily when there is no enforced negative for making that decision and a big IC negative for choosing to continue to discriminate.    When someone discriminates against a breed, it's often the person refusing to accept the breed that is rejected.  Not the breed.

[whitt]

They do let them sleep in their beds, bury them, trust them to take care of kids, risk their lives to save them and so on. And kick someone's loyal dog and see what happens.

In the West.  Sure.  I figure treatment of breeds more closely follows islamic treatment of dogs.

Let me clarify a few myths and make a few points:

1. It is NOT haraam to own a dog, though it is not hygienic to keep a dog in the house.

2. It is NOT haraam to touch a dog or any other animal. If the saliva of a dog touches you or any part of your clothing, then it is required of you to wash the body part touched and the item of clothing touched by the dog's mouth or snout.

3. It is incumbent upon all Muslims who own animals, whether for farming or work purposes or as pets, to provide adequate shelter, food, water, and, when needed, veterinary care for their animals. Arrangements must be made, if one is going to be away from home, to have one's animals taken care of as well.

4. It is haraam to keep a dog or any other animal on a short lead for long periods without food, water, and shelter. Dogs need exercise and are social creatures who form organized "family" structures in nature. Dog owners therefore need to spend time daily with their dogs.

5. It is cruel, and therefore haraam, to keep any animal in a cage so small that it cannot behave in a natural way.

6. Fireworks cause untold suffering to most domestic animals because of their acute sense of hearing.

7. It is haraam to participate in any blood "sport," like dog fighting and trophy hunting.

That's reviling a beast, but being as humane as possible if they must be around at all.  Now imagine the revulsion of a believer of the above watching a dog-owner in Jersey rolling around with their pet pooch, letting it lick all over their face, giving it kisses and/or treating it like a miniature person. 

From here: http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp

[Patuk]

I'm not really sure how any half-elf is going to be extremely good friends with anyone who doesn't possess saintly patience in the first place.

Whitt isn't wrong in saying that celves are likely more dangerous to strangers than breeds are, but celves can get over that, if the stranger proves useful/trustworthy. A half-elf does not stop being a person who will go 'I'm a strong independent breed who don't need no human/elf' in varying grades of extremity. The only people I see being friends with half-elves are those who aren't human or elven at all, and even then it's doubtful the breed is going to be interested in such a friendship.

[Barzalene]

Accomplishment isn't the issue. Its the humanizing. That is a problem. I mean service dogs can become segeants. And people love their service dogs. But they don't let them date their daughters or use their toothbrushes. And dogs are cuter than breeds.

They do let them sleep in their beds, bury them, trust them to take care of kids, risk their lives to save them and so on. And kick someone's loyal dog and see what happens.

Yep. But most people are really clear, they're a different species.  They don't need people to remind them to be clear on that.

And they're dogs. They're not the misbegotten product of their creepy neighbor molesting an afghan with a pretty coat.

[KankWhisperer]

They do let them sleep in their beds, bury them, trust them to take care of kids, risk their lives to save them and so on. And kick someone's loyal dog and see what happens.

In the West.  Sure.  I figure treatment of breeds more closely follows islamic treatment of dogs.

Let me clarify a few myths and make a few points:

1. It is NOT haraam to own a dog, though it is not hygienic to keep a dog in the house.

2. It is NOT haraam to touch a dog or any other animal. If the saliva of a dog touches you or any part of your clothing, then it is required of you to wash the body part touched and the item of clothing touched by the dog's mouth or snout.

3. It is incumbent upon all Muslims who own animals, whether for farming or work purposes or as pets, to provide adequate shelter, food, water, and, when needed, veterinary care for their animals. Arrangements must be made, if one is going to be away from home, to have one's animals taken care of as well.

4. It is haraam to keep a dog or any other animal on a short lead for long periods without food, water, and shelter. Dogs need exercise and are social creatures who form organized "family" structures in nature. Dog owners therefore need to spend time daily with their dogs.

5. It is cruel, and therefore haraam, to keep any animal in a cage so small that it cannot behave in a natural way.

6. Fireworks cause untold suffering to most domestic animals because of their acute sense of hearing.

7. It is haraam to participate in any blood "sport," like dog fighting and trophy hunting.

That's reviling a beast, but being as humane as possible if they must be around at all.  Now imagine the revulsion of a believer of the above watching a dog-owner in Jersey rolling around with their pet pooch, letting it lick all over their face, giving it kisses and/or treating it like a miniature person. 

From here: http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp

That is still fairly humane. And I still imagine you better not be kicking their dog.

[valeria]

I think this is the kind of thing easy to misjudge if you're just looking at it from without.  For instance, an elf (or human) might go out of their way to befriend breeds, viewing them as an easy mark.  And a breed might accept that because it's the best they're likely to get... our be suspicious of the underlying motivations because they know they're unlovable... or both.  Maybe at the same time. The human might have legitimate reasons to advance the breed's interests while disdaining them.  Unless you have access to the player's thoughts, motivations, bios, and reports, you're only going on the visible RP. Which means you may be judging the situation on less than the full picture.

[Saellyn]

You all seem to have missed the topics that were happening elsewhere that some people were mentioning half-elves were considered slgihtly better than elves because they were half human.

This is not the case. Half-elves are fucking gross.

[Cind]

Half-elves have a dependence issue for at least some of the people they interact with that gickers and elves do not... therefore more likely to work closely with humans, and working closely with the humans for a while destroys some barriers once they find out you're a breed or a gicker, destroyed barriers that people do not seem to mind and that don't shatter IC expectations. I forgot where I was going with this.

I think when the barriers get too worn down is what people are having problems with... when half-elves act and are treated basically like low-class humans, but like someone said a couple weeks back they are useful, and usefulness beats discrimination most of the time.

[CodeMaster]

It's not 'just' that people don't accept half-elves.  It's also that half-elves don't accept people.  This is their internal dynamic and, IMO, the thing that makes them hard to play.

You don't get to play out this linear trajectory, where your character joins a group, becomes accepted, makes friends, "feels" accepted, and then just starts acting like a human.

No, that's when the game gets challenging.  Because eventually, that internal pendulum is going to start swinging the other way.  Enjoy having that crew while it lasts, because soon your half-elf is going to want independence, in the extreme.  And now you, the player, have to be prepared to throw your character's relationships away and undertake a massive change in trajectory.  And it's going to be lonely.

At least, that's how I see it.  That's why the role strikes me as exceptionally challenging.  But
I think everyone is going to read the half-elf docs and interpret them through their own filter.

[Barzalene]

In my opinion the place where things break down is every time we say, "Stinky's alright for a breed."
We can find him tolerable, we can owe Stinky a debt, we can like how he follows us around. Its ok if Stinky is alright for a breed as long as we still view him as a breed. The problem is when that sentence elevates Stinky to something more than a breed.

[Jihelu]

I've never thought about this and think this would be a good place to ask but when a Half-elf has his independence hurt, would they lash out per say?
In multiple ways I assume.
Something like, leaving like stated, even something physical.
That'd be a good reason to not talk to Half-elves.
"Hey, don't talk to that Breed, bound to blow up and run off some point" etc.

[Patuk]

Maybe. Depends on the breed.

[Saellyn]

And that right there is the issue. "Depends on the breed".

Breeds should never, ever, ever be treated better than humans unless that human is real scum of the earth. Your average human should be more important than ANY breed. Ever.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't find that black and white mentality very realistic. But I support the passion against breeds.

[HavokBlue]

If I'm playing Joe Kurac and my Fist sergeant is a breed, I'm damn well treating that breed better than the human he just hired as a recruit.

My opinion of him will still be colored by the fact that he's a breed, but and I probably like all the human sergeants more than I like the breed sergeant, but he's elevated himself somewhat.

[Jihelu]

Say a breed manages to find another breed girl/human/elf/how the hell did this happen/etc and has a kid/settles for a bit. Then they hit that 'muh independence' phase, do they just abandon them or do they eventually 'grow out of' their need for acceptance? I'm assuming they run off.

[Barzalene]

If I'm playing Joe Kurac and my Fist sergeant is a breed, I'm damn well treating that breed better than the human he just hired as a recruit.

My opinion of him will still be colored by the fact that he's a breed, but and I probably like all the human sergeants more than I like the breed sergeant, but he's elevated himself somewhat.

You, your bomb sniffing dog, and some guy, right out of training, walk into a building with an explosive. You know you can rely on your dog. You like your dog better than this random guy. But your dog is still a dog.

[Patuk]

Say a breed manages to find another breed girl/human/elf/how the hell did this happen/etc and has a kid/settles for a bit. Then they hit that 'muh independence' phase, do they just abandon them or do they eventually 'grow out of' their need for acceptance? I'm assuming they run off.

They don't grow out of it. Ever. It doesn't need to be a full-blown ragequit screw you guys I'm out kind of thing, but asserting independence is something breeds don't stop doing.

[Delirium]

Think of a cat.

"Rub my belly!" "Now stop. Go away!" "Now come back and snuggle with me." "Hsssssss. Stop! *claws the shit out of your hand*"

People don't like halfbreeds because they're emotionally exhausting to be around, and they're not nearly as cute as kittens.

Their existence is also an uncomfortable reminder that somewhere, somewhen, a human and an elf did it.

Gross.

[Barzalene]

Fido is a great dog. Fido is not alright for a dog.

[Marauder Moe]

Think of a cat.

"Rub my belly!" "Now stop. Go away!" "Now come back and snuggle with me." "Hsssssss. Stop! *claws the shit out of your hand*"

People don't like halfbreeds because they're emotionally exhausting to be around, and they're not nearly as cute as kittens.

Their existence is also an uncomfortable reminder that somewhere, somewhen, a human and an elf did it.

Gross.

This is a great post.


Let's also not forget that social relationships are not 1-dimensional.  A half-elf can be a Kuraci sergeant, but that doesn't mean his unit buddies up to him like they might with a human leader, or that they like him at all; they just follow his orders.  Respect, but not acceptance.

That said, any veteran that plays an elf/halfbreed/magicker/mutant is not only willing to play with social scorn/rejection, they're probably looking forward to it.  I'd say that means you can go a little further in confrontations without sparking a major retaliation.  Not to say that there isn't a line, every character has one, but don't fear so much you're going to piss off the player over a little insult.

[hopeandsorrow]

Something I'm always curious about is how breed infants even make it.

Considering they're undesirable.
On top of an already high infant mortality rate.

There is still enough breeds making it child hood, and even then making it to adult hood, to be all over the game world as vnpc's,npc's, and even pc's.

I just imagine, is this because a mothers love is stronger then social stigma? 
Infants will not survive long with out milk, I don't orphanages are pack with wet nurses, or is there any type of formula. 

Something I've always pondered.

Is there such thing as "He's breed alright... but he's OUR breed."

or "I know she's a half-breed... but I couldn't abandoned her."

How do the little angsty things survive?

[Beethoven]

Well, it just kind of pushes the issue back a step, but a lot of, if not most, half-breeds are probably children of two half-breed parents. But again, somewhere down the line, elves and humans had to have deliberately carried a mixed child to term and reared it. I think that it's probably most likely the parental bond thing. They don't want to love the little monster, but it's instinct, and they can't help it. Some people will be able to abandon their unwanted offspring, and others won't.

[Lizzie]

"I'll get this creature weaned and then I'll sell it to the Guild boss. I could probably earn me enough sids to get out of the rinth once and for all!"

[Marauder Moe]

I believe those are all perfectly valid options.

[Delirium]

There's also the possibility that half-elven ancestry isn't immediately obvious until they're older.

[TheWanderer]

^

[Talia]

You know why any babies, ever, make it? Because they are cute. Cute is the survival mechanism of babies. Because without the cuteness that for whatever reason inspires humans/elves/gith to take care of these tiny, wretched, miserable, shitty, loud creatures--we would eat them or conveniently "forget" them someplace. The babies of some species can start to take care of themselves pretty quickly, so they stop being cute after not too long. Human(oid) babies are cute for a long time because they are so fucking annoying and dependent for so fucking long.

By the time that half-breed baby/toddler/kid isn't cute anymore, it's already able to take care of itself. And it should.

Lots of parents actually hate their children IRL, but keep taking care of them anyway, up to a point. That's always been a hard, sad truth of this awful, crazy world we live in.

I guess my point is: There's IC justification for however you want to play it. Let's not make it so difficult, and let's just give players of half-elves the benefit of the doubt.

[Patuk]

Yeah.. Out of all the accusations you could level at breed playersm 'how did your dude even survive' seems kind of low on the list.

[valeria]

And kids are also more resilient and able to take care of themselves at younger ages then people give them credit for.  I see a lot of neglect cases and very sadly, some of the kids have been raising themselves since four  years old. I don't recommend letting your four-year-old live off trash and begging, but some kids will find a way to survive.

[hopeandsorrow]

Yeah.. Out of all the accusations you could level at breed playersm 'how did your dude even survive' seems kind of low on the list.

Well I wasn't making accusations, just an honest curious question, that perhaps hopefully opened up some thought or discussion about half-breeds beyond the usual answers that makes the world Armageddon seem like an entire population of complete sociopaths. 

[Incognito]

edit: For all the (good and well-done and properly represented) roleplay hate vs elves... that does not and shouldn't mean half-elves are one step above since they can join Houses and Clans... They are -lower- than Elves in the regard to both human and elven cultures.

Lemme give you a few twists on this one :
1) Elves will ALWAYS consider half-elves to be way beneath them, but then again, elves view ALL other races beneath them.
2) Humans and dwarves might have their own "personal" opinions on whether they prefer half-elves over elves, or the other way around. Its a judgement call really, and depends on how the individual player has his PC set up, and influencing experiences and background might also play a role in here.
3) As far as half-giants are concerned, I'm inclined to believe that they might actually hold half-elves in higher esteem than elves, simply because half-elves have a great rapport with beasts (something that perhaps a half-giant might be inclined to think might be akin to kindness), furthermore, half-elves as a rule, don't con half-giants as much as elves might do. Half-giants might be slow and immature, but they're not dumb! Once they know "elves bad" - they can pretty much remember it forever.
4) Now, half-elves themselves, they know that they're the result of some kind of an immoral or illegal or unnatural act, and probably view themselves as the lowest rung with possibly the exception of muls, who they might feel are the result of experimentation and hence even lower in status than themselves. Half-elves walk a thin line - between wanting acceptance, and rejecting company - they might find it suitable to be more open with other half-elves of course, and perhaps other unwanted creatures - such as slaves and muls.
5) As far as Muls go - they KNOW they're the product of twisted magickery and unnatural experimentation - and so they have no doubt that they're the lowest of the low, so to speak. Of course, certain muls (as with all other creatures) will always prove to be the exception.

[BadSkeelz]

Just going to jump in and say that half-giants are incredibly dumb and not playing them dumb is bad roleplay.

[Narf]

Just going to jump in and say that half-giants are incredibly dumb and not playing them dumb is bad roleplay.

Half giants have an impeding mindset that's separate from their actual intelligence.

Anecdotally, their coded intelligence isn't quite as crippling as people portray it.

[Patuk]

Half-giants are dumb. How did you come to the opposite conclusion?

[Incognito]

Half-giants are dumb. How did you come to the opposite conclusion?

Just going to jump in and say that half-giants are incredibly dumb and not playing them dumb is bad roleplay.

As per docs - half-giants are infamously "stupid" and have low wisdoms.

Stupid is NOT the same as dumb.

Without going into details of language - lets just please move ahead and not derail this thread.

Purely as a sidenote:
Dumb, simply put, is when you don't know any better.

Stupid, simply put, is when you know better, but you do it anyway.

[whitt]

Purely as a sidenote:

Dumb Ignorant , simply put, is when you don't know any better.

Dumb , simply put, is when you don't learn from mistakes.

Stupid, simply put, is when you know better, but you do it anyway.

[HavokBlue]

this is going to be a riveting argument

[Revenant]

You know why any babies, ever, make it? Because they are cute. Cute is the survival mechanism of babies. Because without the cuteness that for whatever reason inspires humans/elves/gith to take care of these tiny, wretched, miserable, shitty, loud creatures--we would eat them or conveniently "forget" them someplace. The babies of some species can start to take care of themselves pretty quickly, so they stop being cute after not too long. Human(oid) babies are cute for a long time because they are so fucking annoying and dependent for so fucking long.

By the time that half-breed baby/toddler/kid isn't cute anymore, it's already able to take care of itself. And it should.

Lots of parents actually hate their children IRL, but keep taking care of them anyway, up to a point. That's always been a hard, sad truth of this awful, crazy world we live in.

I guess my point is: There's IC justification for however you want to play it. Let's not make it so difficult, and let's just give players of half-elves the benefit of the doubt.

qfmft

And on another note.

Half-giants are slow, easily confused, and have sometimes tragic misinterpretation of instructions. Some are childlike, naturally curious. Their memory is perfectly functional, though their interpretation of their reflection may be, oddly simplified to the point of absurdity. Where they really shine is imitation. If they don't already, I'd think they should pick up languages and accents quite a bit quicker than others. I find "dumb" to be a word whose meaning varies from person to person, and so perhaps not a sufficient word. This does not mean the half-giant is incapable of thought, it just means it's a hazardous process for the everyone involved. If I see a half-giant supergenius, OOC my first thoughts are that they've been taken over by something else. IC I'm like, wow, that's the smartest half-giant I've ever met.

Now, there are a number of ways to conceptualize the half-giant mindset. I personally find them undesirable to play for a number of reasons, though I do always enjoy observing someone else's intepretation and how it interacts with the events around them. I think it's, kind of unfair when players call "foul" and point the finger at another player accusing them of bad RP the instant their half-giant does something they don't expect, as this has happened to me and I know for a fact that other players were enjoying my silly antics so it was just this one person trying to make my character conform to their expectations, which, were rather narrow. The simple fact is, the half-giant won't ALWAYS come to the wrong conclusion, though they usually will.

[Incognito]

LOL - 4th May - the 4th is strong in this thread - looks like we're getting derailed - half-elf to half-giant!

But seriously - coming back to the half-elven roleplay.....

[Revenant]

Personally, I find the quirks of breeds a lot more annoying OOC than elves, no matter what race I'm playing, especially when I'm playing a breed. At least you KNOW that necker's up to something shady, you can trust him to, be a necker. You never know when a half-elf is going to breed out on you. It makes it near impossible to like or love them because they hurt your feelings so much.

[whitt]

Derp.

[RogueGunslinger]

Elves should be treated very differently from half-elves.

Elves should instill fear, anger, resentment, and more of an us vs them mentality. People who deal with them should show mistrust but also an understanding that any dealings you have will leave you with less, and that elf with more, but there are worse options out there.

Half-elves should, when not being ignored entirely, instill disgust and revulsion. People who show them pity should be scoffed at. When dealing with them, people should be scornful, and feel like it's their only option.

And magickers should be a combination of the worst parts of both.

[chuci]

Man all those NPCs in the market must have a real rough time finding any customers, huh?

Armageddon shines when you focus on the grey areas of interaction. Otherwise it's just not fun for most people.

Racism and speciesism doesn't have to result in overblown aggression or overly negative interactions, nor does it have to result in completely hidden (think-only) reactions, hugs, or smiles.

Condescension, elitism, exclusion, mockery, jokes at their expense, paying them less than you'd offer someone else, the list goes on.

Someone can be a second class citizen without suffering daily abuse to the point where you wonder how NPCs even survive.


p.s. half giants are gullible and stupid and dumb. You're getting wrapped up in the semantics of the word stupid.

[RogueGunslinger]

 I don't think I agree at all that Armageddon shines in the gray areas of interaction, though maybe I misunderstood you point. I think it shines when you follow the documentation. Limits beget creativity, and all that.

I'd say the only time it gets ridiculous is when your elf keeps being the whipping boy for every slight a PC has ever suffered. Or when you try to be slightly rascist from the elf side of things and every person at the bar suddenly wants to make it a big deal, like there isn't half a city worth of elves who've been talking shit about them their entire life.

There are many flavors of racism and ways to interact with them though, that I totally agree on.

[chuci]

Uh. The documentation encourages grey areas. Unless it's been edited to be more stringent?

Being able to interact != hugs and smiles.

Overt hostility and avoidance stifle interaction, they don't encourage it.

I feel like there's been a big push in the game to make everything "meaner" in response to a segment of the playerbase that likes everything to be hugs, smiles, and sunshine, but the problem is going overboard with that only stifles roleplay opportunities. Or maybe people just aren't good at playing long-term conflict without defaulting to rapid escalation.

Example:
a shady back room deal with an elf that you know can get you some illicit goods on the quiet, complete with lots of haggling because you just KNOW this sharp-eared necker is ripping you off because he's got what you need = long-term interaction that follows the coda of the gameworld
avoiding the elf entirely or starting a barfight with him and trying to get him killed = brief or no interaction that just discourages that player from rolling up another elf

etc, etc, etc.

[Patuk]

Chuci, can you take a look at player announcements and apply for my elf tribe, please? I'd kind of like bringing you in.

[Revenant]

Chuci for president. Absolutely agree %100.

[RogueGunslinger]

Uh. The documentation encourages grey areas. Unless it's been edited to be more stringent?

What do you mean encourages gray areas? The documentation encourages you to follow the documentation. How you interpret that documentation is something else entirely, like Talia said before, it's not something that you should worry yourself over getting exactly right or that there's any one specific way to do things right. But it sounds like you're saying people should play in more neutral, accepting manners, while avoiding conflict for the sake of longer-lasting interaction. Which I pretty much disagree with entirely if that's what you're saying.


Edit: Basically I think you can go wrong in both directions. Too accepting/neutral/understanding. Or irrationaly conflicting for no other reason than to let off some steam under the guise of "playing to documentation"

[Armaddict]

Overt hostility and avoidance stifle interaction, they don't encourage it.

Hostility is interaction.  Interaction !=everyone survives for as long as possible.

I actually, for the most part, agree with you, but I wanted to point it out...the overt hostility isn't a reaction to hugs and smiles, it's a reaction to what has been a rather slow, but steady trend over years and years that turned this game less and less 'competitive', which results in a drastically different feel over time.  At one point, getting killed out of nowhere for your boots was an actual reality.  It was scary, and trust of other pc's was so low that the 'hunt in groups' advice was actually hard to follow.  People really would offer their help in hunting, just to insure you got far enough away from the gates.

That didn't stifle interaction.  It got people killed, though.  The assertion that this results in people not playing that role because 'shit' is based on a premise that players killing players is undesirable, which isn't true.

Again, though, for the most part, things could be handled in a way that accomplishes goals -and- allows for a more dynamic relationship between enemies, but I just wanted to point out that a simple mugger, or a cruel-bastard-mercenary who gets violently drunk, is not a bad role, or someone stifling interaction.  They're playing a role to be interacted with in a certain way.

Pretty much...I'm making sure you're not meaning what it sounds like you're meaning, as RGS said:

But it sounds like you're saying people should play in more neutral, accepting manners, while avoiding conflict for the sake of longer-lasting interaction. Which I pretty much disagree with entirely if that's what you're saying.

[HavokBlue]

I think it's worth saying that I don't think staff have an issue with players killing players. I think staff have an issue with players killing players for no other reason than to kill players, ie. a plot that results only in dead players and nothing else.

[Talia]

I think it's worth saying that I don't think staff have an issue with players killing players. I think staff have an issue with players killing players for no other reason than to kill players, ie. a plot that results only in dead players and nothing else.

I'm definitely against players killing players! But I'm 100% in favor of player-characters killing player-characters should they have an IC reason to do so.



Also, please make sure to wish up when you're about to PK, as we'd like to watch.

[HavokBlue]

You know, as I was typing that, I knew I should have specified PCs.

[chuci]

Overt hostility and avoidance stifle interaction, they don't encourage it.

Hostility is interaction.  Interaction !=everyone survives for as long as possible.

I actually, for the most part, agree with you, but I wanted to point it out...the overt hostility isn't a reaction to hugs and smiles, it's a reaction to what has been a rather slow, but steady trend over years and years that turned this game less and less 'competitive', which results in a drastically different feel over time.  At one point, getting killed out of nowhere for your boots was an actual reality.  It was scary, and trust of other pc's was so low that the 'hunt in groups' advice was actually hard to follow.  People really would offer their help in hunting, just to insure you got far enough away from the gates.

That didn't stifle interaction.  It got people killed, though.  The assertion that this results in people not playing that role because 'shit' is based on a premise that players killing players is undesirable, which isn't true.

Again, though, for the most part, things could be handled in a way that accomplishes goals -and- allows for a more dynamic relationship between enemies, but I just wanted to point out that a simple mugger, or a cruel-bastard-mercenary who gets violently drunk, is not a bad role, or someone stifling interaction.  They're playing a role to be interacted with in a certain way.

Pretty much...I'm making sure you're not meaning what it sounds like you're meaning, as RGS said:

But it sounds like you're saying people should play in more neutral, accepting manners, while avoiding conflict for the sake of longer-lasting interaction. Which I pretty much disagree with entirely if that's what you're saying.

I mostly agree with you.

10 years ago, sure, people feared for their lives a lot more - but entire cities would also be vacated because of a particularly PK-happy templar. There's a middle ground to be found, and that's my whole point.

Extreme xenophobia and hostility is not always (always, I said!) conducive to great storytelling.

There's a reason the Tan Muark got volcano bombed.

[BadSkeelz]

There's a reason the Tan Muark got volcano bombed.

Cause they were pretty and had nice things? That was enough of a reason for my PC to help with that plot. Don't really see how their firebombing is germane to a xenophobia/hostility question.

[chuci]

There's a reason the Tan Muark got volcano bombed.

Cause they were pretty and had nice things? That was enough of a reason for my PC to help with that plot. Don't really see how their firebombing is germane to a xenophobia/hostility question.

Let me rephrase that: there's OOC reasons the Tan Muark got volcano bombed.

They had a wonderful, engaging, interesting history. They were also incredibly xenophobic and isolated and self-contained.

They're better as a nomadic tribal culture. Parked in Tyn Dashra, they grew stagnant. It was also beginning to stretch the bounds of reality that they would remain unchallenged for so long.

There's this Aesops fable-style story where this guy dies and he thinks he's gone to heaven, because he wins everything all the time. It's actually hell, because he grows so bored of winning that there's no challenge and no joy left in it. So he complains about how boring it is to win all the time, and so he gets the opposite. He loses all the time. And he becomes so beaten down and discouraged by losing all the time that he begs to start winning again. And then the cycle repeats itself. Because in hell, there is no middle ground and no balance. And while Armageddon is hell in character, it's supposed to be good storytelling out of character.

Stories need winners and they need losers. They need interaction, they need conflict and they need cooperation. I'm not suggesting that we make all our interactions neutral and forgiving, that's just as boring as violence all the time every time. That's just as boring as straight-up ignoring people and being isolated all the time. What I'm suggesting is that players - and staff - make the creative effort to stop and think: "Would this make a good story? If I was reading a novel, would I be entertained by this? Does this promote interaction and enjoyable conflict or does it stifle it? Is this just me getting off on being awesome or am I contributing to a scene?"

Obviously, not all scenes need those questions. But even if you're solo roleplaying, consider what you're doing that you could make a scene or a plot hook out of, later on, with other players.

Those sorts of questions are the difference, I feel, between a good roleplayer and a great roleplayer.


... also, half-breeds are gross and pathetic.

[valeria]

This thread has veered off course.  If you want to discuss things other than half-elf roleplay, please make a new thread 

[Harmless]

 

Man all those NPCs in the market must have a real rough time finding any customers, huh?

Armageddon shines when you focus on the grey areas of interaction. Otherwise it's just not fun for most people.

Racism and speciesism doesn't have to result in overblown aggression or overly negative interactions, nor does it have to result in completely hidden (think-only) reactions, hugs, or smiles.

Condescension, elitism, exclusion, mockery, jokes at their expense, paying them less than you'd offer someone else, the list goes on.

Someone can be a second class citizen without suffering daily abuse to the point where you wonder how NPCs even survive.


p.s. half giants are gullible and stupid and dumb. You're getting wrapped up in the semantics of the word stupid.

This is a strong post on all counts and I wish more players would take it to heart.

However, there doesn't seem to be any real documentation available that discusses how "racist RP" should be. I think it might belong in "help human roleplay" because, being the most populous race, they determine the social status of other races in their cities. Yet, the helpfile for human roleplay is depressingly empty:

Human character is as broad as human ability. Virtually any sort of disposition can be found amongst humans, and humans are allowed the greatest latitude in inventing their personalities. For all intents and purposes, a human is able to become whatever he or she wishes to become, without restriction.

I wonder if this helpfile could be expanded to help players of human PCs determine how they should respond to other races. I think all the helpfile currently addresses is how humans can roleplay in the absence of non-human races, i.e. with each other.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't really think peoples problem with representing racism is because of them being too aggressive/conflicting though, if anything I'd say it's the opposite for Dwarvers, Half-elves, and Half-giants. They're treated like humans with strength, depression, and stubbornness, instead of the different races they truly are.

I'd say Elves have some issues with people being overly aggressive for no reason, but that is not the crux of their problems or even the worst part of it. It's not something docs can fix. The worst of their problem is people knowing they have no back-up.  Nobody is afraid of fucking with elves for little to no reason because they know they will never be held accountable for their actions. When the reality is they should expect a beat-down in middle of the night by that elf's tribe, or for their apartment to be broken into have all their valuables stolen, and then shit smeared on their walls and rug and elf piss in their cot.

[wizturbo]

I'm all for hostility towards those the docs say are undesirables, but I hate that to so many people hostility = +10 on the PK meter.

Equally, I hate that insults so quickly escalate to murder plots.  PKing someone ends the conflict.  It makes the game less fun, not more fun.  I'm not saying PKing shouldn't happen, but it should happen for better reasons than "so and so called my merchant assistant a stinky butt!".  

If someone is a thieving elf, or insults your mom, try and come up with more creative ways to liven up the conflict with them than trying to kill them.   Try and get them fired.  Steal their shit.  Frame them for stealing someone elses shit.  Spread false rumors about them.  Bang their GF.  Bang their BF.  Whatever it is, PK should be step 5 on the conflict chart escalation chart, not step 1.

[Barzalene]

Equally, I hate that insults so quickly escalate to murder plots.  PKing someone ends the conflict.  It makes the game less fun, not more fun.  I'm not saying PKing shouldn't happen, but it should happen for better reasons than "so and so called my merchant assistant a stinky butt!".  

It's funny and true.

[Harmless]

That's an interesting question. I personally have never played a PC who would just do a racial cleansing murder of a breed just because they were a breed, nor one who decides that as soon as a breed looked at you the wrong way it was time to murder. But wouldn't that fit the setting to some degree? I agree jumping straight to murder isn't fun gameplay wise but it could fit, right? Of course, as soon as it were discovered someone did that, they would be determined to be a dangerous and volatile person but it isn't bannable or anything.

[HavokBlue]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Armaddict]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Depends the role, the stakes, and the character.  For some people and some situations, that's exactly what it means.

[HavokBlue]

My point is that just because you CAN create a character who murders breeds purely for existing and justify it by saying "zalanthans can be mentally unhinged too!!" does not mean you should. You can produce shitty, flimsy justification for a lot of pkills in Arm, but they are dumb and anti-fun and can generally be reduced to someone wanting to pk for the sake of pk.

[Rokal]

I'm all for hostility towards those the docs say are undesirables, but I hate that to so many people hostility = +10 on the PK meter.

Equally, I hate that insults so quickly escalate to murder plots.  PKing someone ends the conflict.  It makes the game less fun, not more fun.  I'm not saying PKing shouldn't happen, but it should happen for better reasons than "so and so called my merchant assistant a stinky butt!".  

If someone is a thieving elf, or insults your mom, try and come up with more creative ways to liven up the conflict with them than trying to kill them.   Try and get them fired.  Steal their shit.  Frame them for stealing someone elses shit.  Spread false rumors about them.  Bang their GF.  Bang their BF.  Whatever it is, PK should be step 5 on the conflict chart escalation chart, not step 1.

I agree with this, from what i've seen in my experience so far, the undesirables on the documentation seems to translate into this intense ,seething hatred and bloodlust in many a cases  - My main experience of that is in seeing the reaction to magickers.

The documentation states that people -fear- magick, want nothing to do with it, and would basically only accept help from such a person if they were deseperate enough, or had enough exposure..ect. what not to it, but they'd always be a magicker.

it fits for certain characters, yes.. but my view so far has been (From a mundane perspective watching other mundanes - and not just tulukis). "Oh. Magicker making spelll. Kill it kill it whocares what magick its using that if I touch it I could curse my first born and second born or myself for years to come.

Its as if somewhere down the line a lot of the players have translated "I see a magicker" to "Compelete reason to PK.' .. sure, that fits. but wheres the -fear?-

Not meaning to go off topic here - but what if instead of trying to go to stab that gick in the neck, you go and report it to authorties? or maybe you let that gick whos probably starved for interaction (And yes, take a risk) have some RP. Scare the shit out of your poor little mundane. Or weird them out. Or any sort of little thing.

I like to see the documentations as a guideline.

Not a strict ruleset

For the bolded part - all my yes, yes. Doing things to get back at someone doesnt need to be killing! Shoot, theres so many awesome things that can be done  to stir up plot without even coming close to typing 'kill amos'

And when it comes down to the point you type 'kill amos?' .. Maybe you leave them near dead. Mistake them for dead IC! ect.  Let them crawl away and cling to their life and live through that. Maybe even on PURPOSE have your character make a mistake, due to maybe the emotional build up of the conflict. they slip up, they lost focus. That gives the 'opponent' an opportunity. Remember that characters aren't perfect. Make mistakes on purpose, remember that your OOC knowledge or skill with the game  =/= that of the character. All such things can make better RP.
--------

As for half elves.. I haven't really had enough interaction with breeds (or maybe I have.. secret breeds are ninjas) and I have never played one. But breeds are as diverse as any other race. You could meet a actual pretty stable, level headed breed whos pretty amiable with people and is happy to help,  but just goes off into a 'hermit mode' to indulge in their own personal accomplishments - maybe for something new to brag about, or lament about.

To some of the more aggressive examples i've seen stated, or a mix inbetween. A big thing would be to think of personality clashes. Even between two breeds, I could imagine some of the -best- conflicts for a half-elf happening with another half-elf whos personalities clash - or are stubbornly similar.

That said, since theyre -so diverse-, you can never expect what you see from one ... So, i personally think the reaction to a breed (knowing theyre one or not) should be a mixture, depending on the personality. People will always see them as a breed if they know they're one, sure - but that one human might just like that one breed more then the other.

In short, I don't think there a legitimate way to say theres an 'expected' way to treat a or roleplay a breed. They're a disgrace or disgust amoungst society but they DO have a place there. They haven't died out or been mass killed.

[Beethoven]

If I jump straight to murder on what appears to be a whim, it's probably a good bet that the person in question knows something about my character that my character doesn't want to get out. Most conflicts can be resolved without death, but killing someone is the only sure way to shut them up, what with the Way and all.

[Revenant]

If I jump straight to murder on what appears to be a whim, it's probably a good bet that the person in question knows something about my character that my character doesn't want to get out. Most conflicts can be resolved without death, but killing someone is the only sure way to shut them up, what with the Way and all.

THIS. Keep your blackmail reasonable and have a reputation for being trustworthy, as well as some background with the other character, and maybe they won't try to shut you up, beyond, you know, meeting your reasonable demands. When the demands and threats of other PCs are just too much, yeah, that's a problem my character will feel the need to be rid of at any cost, mindless, one-sided escalation included. Also, don't get caught murdering my character's family, friends, or employees and there are other ways around it.

[Jingo]

I'd say Elves have some issues with people being overly aggressive for no reason, but that is not the crux of their problems or even the worst part of it. It's not something docs can fix. The worst of their problem is people knowing they have no back-up.  Nobody is afraid of fucking with elves for little to no reason because they know they will never be held accountable for their actions. When the reality is they should expect a beat-down in middle of the night by that elf's tribe, or for their apartment to be broken into have all their valuables stolen, and then shit smeared on their walls and rug and elf piss in their cot.

More or less what I've been saying for the last eight years.

[musashi]

(I went many years playing almost nothing but half-elves, and I still love playing them.)

I also, have played almost exclusively half-elves in my time here, and for much the same reasons your mentioned.
I love starting out at below the bottom of the barrel and having to claw and scrabble my way up from there one painful step at a time.