Creating Meaningful Conflict (GMHs, Nobles, etc)

[Talia]

Why not just broaden the scope of those involved when planning? Instead of micro-managing the plots, and who gets involved, if the staff puts out a regional/global/whole House directive, then anyone on the fray will be picked up without having to be part of a clan, or led around by a leader.

I wasn't around for the holloween plot you mention, but I'll take the RatSucker plot as an example. That is a city-wide plot that a lot of clans could be involved with, but overall, between each plot "scene" (X rat got killed, post a rumor board, then wait to see who reacts, how far the reaction goes, etc), there was a lot of downtime that didn't directly impact PCs. A stander-by or a new player walking into the game in the middle of this can't really get involved unless they are directly involved with the clan leaders who are pursuing the plot. And once the Ratsucker plot came to a conclusion, what real impact was there to the overall flow of the game? Did further plots come out of that? Were the lives of PCs impacted, and important decisions have to be made? I don't know what happened at the end exactly, but the whole way the plot was run seems to me like a D&D style dungeon crawl (just like you describe the holloween plot?).

It's kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind of funny that you mentioned Ratsucker, since I was one of the architects of that plot I do know what it involved and how we ran it, quite intimately. One thing players often misunderstand is that a lot of downtime in plots is created by players. Often there are "next steps" that players need to take--communicating with each other, communicating with clan staff, getting thing X from place Y, running an RPT, and all of these things delay plot progress. Sometimes that's frustrating to players, and sometimes it feels like nothing is happening, but no one is playing this game 24/7, and it does take time to get things done. Patience is helpful.

Also, we don't "micro-manage" plots. You misunderstand me. We try to spread plots around; if player leaders aren't doing a good job of spreading the plot out to other PCs, then we will do that for them, if we can do it in a way that makes sense within the plot. That's what I meant about discussion between staff members. Sometimes we're trying to figure out how to involve particular PCs, sometimes we're targeting whole clans to get involved. "Micro-managing" makes it sound like what we're doing is a bad thing. It's not. It's a good thing, because if we left all of this up to players, most plots would involve just a couple of people. That would be bad! (Also a waste of effort.)

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I'm sorry that you're not seeing any of this near you right now. I suspect you maybe just need to get a little more involved with PCs beyond the borders of your clan. Players are often pretty insular, but building relationships with other PCs, and demonstrating your usefulness or interestingness or willingness to be involved will go a long way to buying your ticket to the Big Plot Ride of Doom.

[Delusion]

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I wish they did. I end up feeling like storing most of my PCs after maybe 20 days on the clock (roughly when the average character has either achieved some modest but not insignificant rank, or otherwise reaches a decent level of competence, but before the long, long grind to be genuinely powerful), unless I get a definite sense that maybe I can have some impact on some overarching story or whatever that changes up everything, or more commonly, to bear witness to it from some interesting perspective. Interpersonal conflict? Having all my PC's friends die again? Eh. Doesn't interest me if the world's not changing as a consequence. I end up storing and going at it with a fresh character, until they, too, come to the same somewhat dull conclusion after some enjoyment on my part of their initial development. I want to feel something's happening, but if the world's static, I just don't get that, and I don't have much more that I feel I can really do with the average character, come a certain point.

Edited post a bit to clarify and change wording in the last bit.

[Jihelu]

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I wish they did. I end up feeling like storing most of my PCs after maybe 20 days on the clock (roughly when the average character has either achieved some modest but not insignificant rank, or otherwise reaches a decent level of competence, but before the long, long grind to be genuinely powerful), unless I get a definite sense that maybe I can have some impact on some overarching story or whatever that changes up everything, or more commonly, to bear witness to it from some interesting perspective. Interpersonal conflict? Having all my PC's friends die again? Eh. Doesn't interest me if the world's not changing as a consequence. I end up storing and going at it with a fresh character, until they, too, come to the same pointless conclusion after some enjoyment on my part of their initial development.

That makes the game for me I think.
That "So much has happened but the world doesn't give a singular fuck".
Unless you happen to be friends with Tek/Muk and they die. Then all hell goes.

[MeTekillot]

Role apps for skilled cronies should be more commpn. Will elaborate when i get home

A big thing that stops conflict is that when your MAIN GUY (that is, your one of three guys you've spent the last three months training up to 20-days played competence) gets owned by House Your-Rival, is that one third of your effectiveness has just gone totally kaput for a very long time. I think it would help to facilitate a lot of conflict if the leader PCs in high-profile high-power clan had a reserve of role-apps that they could put a call out for, where someone could app into their clan as a moderately skilled whatever, so that they actually have the sway that they virtually do have.

Also give people reasons to branch out their organization's main thing, with incentive to step on the toes of other organizations. Maybe Oash decides that, since they have fields already, Rennik doesn't need all that dosh from being the agriculture guys. Kurac decides that being the main supplier of narcotic pleasure isn't enough, and starts to do luxury goods, Kadius be damned because goddamnit we have an Outpost, you silk-sleeved little shits. Something. If not, maybe staff could put in plots to plop down some very neat stuff in the deserts that should take a little while to harvest, a la the Copper War. Both Kadius and Salarr have a reason to try to tap that gem vein that's been discovered in the Red Desert, and they're playing for keeps. I'm not a one man planning machine, so what I've probably presented is somewhat limited in scope, but work with me.

also destroy tuluk consolidate players

[Semper]

I also want to say about the impact of plots: Most of them don't have lasting world impact. And they don't need to; that's fine. Plots impact players. Plots are for having fun, not for changing the world. They're for developing characters and deepening relationships and introducing twists and creating memories. The other questions you have about impacting PCs, making decisions, further plots: Yes, those things happened. Those things do happen when we run big plots.

I wish they did. I end up feeling like storing most of my PCs after maybe 20 days on the clock (roughly when the average character has either achieved some modest but not insignificant rank, or otherwise reaches a decent level of competence, but before the long, long grind to be genuinely powerful), unless I get a definite sense that maybe I can have some impact on some overarching story or whatever that changes up everything, or more commonly, to bear witness to it from some interesting perspective. Interpersonal conflict? Having all my PC's friends die again? Eh. Doesn't interest me if the world's not changing as a consequence. I end up storing and going at it with a fresh character, until they, too, come to the same somewhat dull conclusion after some enjoyment on my part of their initial development. I want to feel something's happening, but if the world's static, I just don't get that, and I don't have much more that I feel I can really do with the average character, come a certain point.

Edited post a bit to clarify and change wording in the last bit.

I think this is the feeling for a lot of veterans? That things happening IG just don't matter.

I hear what the staff are saying. I just think perhaps there could be a different perspective to try out now'n then? There must be a better way to fix this feeling of repetition, wash'rinse'repeat cycle.

Arm 2.0 End-of-World plot? There was a certain 'energy' behind those plots, because as a player, I knew some big changes were going on, and things that I was involved in as a character could impact how things were going to shape in the new world (even if the chances were slim). That kind of motivation for over-arching, long-term plots, could really drive players into playing motivated characters once again. (I'm not suggesting anything here, just stating how I felt at that time.)

[Barzalene]

I'd extol the staff not to be afraid of letting pcs change the world changing plots. Big shock value. It should happen rarely. Just enough that it feels possible. Then you plot to put it back in time. Like the fall of Tuluk. Like the liberation of Tuluk.

[Talia]

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

[Barzalene]

That doesn't mean that players won't be involved and even that player actions won't turn plots this way and that. We work very diligently to incorporate player actions and reactions. And we reward players for their actions, too. We spend a lot of time discussing, "Hey, so-and-so could use a plot bone here, how do we do that? What about whatsherface, how can we get her more involved?" And then we execute, both in accordance with our grand plans and themes, and in reaction to what players are doing in the moment and long-term.

I hear that, and its awesome. I meant more the opportunity for a PC  or PCs to be the catalyst. (I get lazy and fail to express myself clearly. If you guys were omniscient this wouldn't be an issue. Please try to get those mind reading skills leveled. Thanks.)

[Talia]

I hear that, and its awesome. I meant more the opportunity for a PC  or PCs to be the catalyst. (I get lazy and fail to express myself clearly. If you guys were omniscient this wouldn't be an issue. Please try to get those mind reading skills leveled. Thanks.)

By "catalyst" do you mean "be the starter of the plot"? Because we do actually do that. E.g., something that BadSkeelz referred to up-thread that his PC did in response to an animation, which started a particular mini-plot ball rolling. The animation was just supposed to be an animation, but PC action turned it into an actual plot for the clan and the resulting interaction involved a number of PCs.

Another example from a few years ago: The player of a templar decided that his PC had been assigned to drudge work at the copper mine by some enemy, and had just now made it back to being stationed in Allanak, and wanted to find out who his enemy was. We turned that into a plot which had some really fun moments. (Until the templar died )

I could give other recent examples too, except that I can't.

If by "catalyst" you mean "make a particular plot event happen before it's ready to happen, because PCs want to" then all I can say is...plot stuff happens when staff and players have both done what is necessary to make it happen. We do need prep time, we can't do everything off-the-cuff all the time. As mentioned, often plot delays happen because players get delayed in their actions. Other times staff is doing a build-up and we're not ready for players to "solve" the plot yet, because you guys haven't done enough work and/or because we want the plot to get around to more PCs and/or because we want the timeline to go longer.

Something that keeps coming to mind as I read player responses in this thread is that, unfortunately, since you guys can't see what staff sees, then you can't ever see if we're actually doing what you say you want, and which I'm saying we are doing. Again with the BadSkeelz example, let's assume he's not playing that PC anymore; if there was anything still happening with that plot, he would never know. Staff simply can't give concrete, solid examples of what we're doing currently, and often we also can't tell you what we did in the past.

You're just going to have to trust us. Or not. That's up to you.

[Barzalene]

I hear that, and its awesome. I meant more the opportunity for a PC  or PCs to be the catalyst. (I get lazy and fail to express myself clearly. If you guys were omniscient this wouldn't be an issue. Please try to get those mind reading skills leveled. Thanks.)

By "catalyst" do you mean "be the starter of the plot"? Because we do actually do that. E.g., something that BadSkeelz referred to up-thread that his PC did in response to an animation, which started a particular mini-plot ball rolling. The animation was just supposed to be an animation, but PC action turned it into an actual plot for the clan and the resulting interaction involved a number of PCs.

Another example from a few years ago: The player of a templar decided that his PC had been assigned to drudge work at the copper mine by some enemy, and had just now made it back to being stationed in Allanak, and wanted to find out who his enemy was. We turned that into a plot which had some really fun moments. (Until the templar died )

I could give other recent examples too, except that I can't.

If by "catalyst" you mean "make a particular plot event happen before it's ready to happen, because PCs want to" then all I can say is...plot stuff happens when staff and players have both done what is necessary to make it happen. We do need prep time, we can't do everything off-the-cuff all the time. As mentioned, often plot delays happen because players get delayed in their actions. Other times staff is doing a build-up and we're not ready for players to "solve" the plot yet, because you guys haven't done enough work and/or because we want the plot to get around to more PCs and/or because we want the timeline to go longer.

Something that keeps coming to mind as I read player responses in this thread is that, unfortunately, since you guys can't see what staff sees, then you can't ever see if we're actually doing what you say you want, and which I'm saying we are doing. Again with the BadSkeelz example, let's assume he's not playing that PC anymore; if there was anything still happening with that plot, he would never know. Staff simply can't give concrete, solid examples of what we're doing currently, and often we also can't tell you what we did in the past.

You're just going to have to trust us. Or not. That's up to you.

Text is hard. No censure or criticism is implied. I do trust you! I do!
I think our disconnect is you don't  want to make promises that you may not be able to fulfill. I think you guys are doing more, but don't want to be in the position of having to say: yes you bought 100 torches. No you can't burn down Luirs Outpost.

But we  (yeah I'm putting  words in everyone's mouth) want to feel impactful and that we can be surprised. I think its likely true. We just want it in writing.

That said, I have no doubt that you guys are doing your part. My experience has been awesome.

[wizturbo]

Everybody wants plots. But nobody wants to play useful minions.  

^^^

One of the best roles in the game is being a useful/trusted minion of a good leader.  You get the plot action, and way less OOC or IC responsibility.  Whenever I'm not playing one of these, part of me wishes I was.

[Talia]

Text is hard. No censure or criticism is implied. I do trust you! I do!

Oh, I really do know this. My only frustration with this type of conversation comes from the fact that the staff perspective is so radically different from the individual player perspective, and I think we talk past each other a lot as a result. I don't think there's a fix for that other than trust on both sides.

I think our disconnect is you don't  want to make promises that you may not be able to fulfill. I think you guys are doing more, but don't want to be in the position of having to say: yes you bought 100 torches. No you can't burn down Luirs Outpost.

Yeah, again unfortunately, we do have to say no more often than we'd like to. Sometimes this is because a player didn't communicate with us at all, sometimes it's because the thing a player wants to do is unrealistic, sometimes it's because we just don't have staff resources available to support the thing right then, sometimes it's because it's just not something we want to see in the game world right now. E.g., burning down Luir's (totally facetious example, I know) would suck for a lot of players both IC and OOC and so we don't want to do that.

Side note: Does it seem to anyone else like threads like this pop up a LOT more when players are actually excited about the game and stuff is happening? I sort of feel like they do. Excitement seems to generate the feeling of "but if we just did a little more of THIS..." And then we get GDB threads.

[Jeax]

Side note: Does it seem to anyone else like threads like this pop up a LOT more when players are actually excited about the game and stuff is happening? I sort of feel like they do. Excitement seems to generate the feeling of "but if we just did a little more of THIS..." And then we get GDB threads.

Yes.

When people feel good and/or are inspired by activity, they turn creative and want to keep moving the bar higher and keep pressing on, etc.

[whitt]

Side note: Does it seem to anyone else like threads like this pop up a LOT more when players are actually excited about the game and stuff is happening? I sort of feel like they do. Excitement seems to generate the feeling of "but if we just did a little more of THIS..." And then we get GDB threads.

Yep.  At work we call it "Enthusispasm". 

It is usually followed (sadly) by a period of some idea presenters feeling rejected as "great ideas" are "shot down" when in reality what's happened is that the team that has created some momentum has either already talked through those ideas or is actively attempting to not get overloaded with additional work.

It's a rare team that avoids Helium hand and just delivers slow steady progress.  The last several months have been pretty awesome.  Expect more Enthusispasms.

[Talia]

Expect more Enthusispasms.

Please consider this the new sig I would have if I wasn't so sentimentally attached to fire kanks.

Thanks for the explanation and for getting what I meant, guys!

[wizturbo]

The last several months have been pretty awesome.  Expect more Enthusispasms.

^^^

[KankWhisperer]

I think certain areas seem to get all the attention.

[Semper]

I think certain areas seem to get all the attention.

My gut reaction is to agree with this. I think I just need time playing in a political/social role before I can really make another accurate judgement on the current conflict level in the game. My hope is that things really are going as the staff describe.

[HavokBlue]

I think certain areas seem to get all the attention.

What do you mean? One city over the other?

Because they both have separate, dedicated staff teams. =/

[Rokal]

The game chases new players (and old) away, ultimately because it's so hard to get involved in a meaningful plot without being a 50+day master warrior/assassion/ranger. If you get involved in plots from day 0 as a player, we could retain so many more players. Being a veteran player should not give you an advantage over a newer player in what kind of plots you can be involved in. PLEASE FIX THIS!

I can say right now, as a newbie player.

I never let my lack of experience with arm stop me from getting involved, nor did being a newbie or a fresh character stop others from trying to involve me.

I didn't hesitate to get into anything that happened, even from day one!

As a new player, I get into things and I get so many: AWESOME!   moments.

I think what your speaking if is an out of character -fear- of what may be the consequences for getting involved with a fresh character.

The thing is though, the bumpy road of getting involved  with a brand new, fresh and inexperienced character can make the experience better. in my experience so far, fresh characters aren't ignored, if anything, they're welcomed quickly, and given plenty of opportunity to get into plots.

[Jeax]

The game chases new players (and old) away, ultimately because it's so hard to get involved in a meaningful plot without being a 50+day master warrior/assassion/ranger. If you get involved in plots from day 0 as a player, we could retain so many more players. Being a veteran player should not give you an advantage over a newer player in what kind of plots you can be involved in. PLEASE FIX THIS!

I can say right now, as a newbie player.

I never let my lack of experience with arm stop me from getting involved, nor did being a newbie or a fresh character stop others from trying to involve me.

I didn't hesitate to get into anything that happened, even from day one!

As a new player, I get into things and I get so many: AWESOME!   moments.

I think what your speaking if is an out of character -fear- of what may be the consequences for getting involved with a fresh character.

The thing is though, the bumpy road of getting involved  with a brand new, fresh and inexperienced character can make the experience better. in my experience so far, fresh characters aren't ignored, if anything, they're welcomed quickly, and given plenty of opportunity to get into plots.

This is a good perspective. I think a lot of players wait until their skills as journeyman+ to start trying to get involved in anything, and before then they sort of lie low. This isn't necessary, especially if you're in numbers. While I am somewhat guilty of this myself, I have played a couple of more "ballsy" characters that just go for stuff, and I have found myself in plots as only a 2-4 day character or so. I would agree that it is definitely an OOC fear.

[valeria]

The 20 day slump is a real, actual problem for me.  The character's shiny newness has worn off, her friends have probably died or been replaced, and probably a couple original goals are impossible to obtain or have already been obtained.  Fortunately, being aware that it's a problem makes it easier to power through.

[Harmless]

As someone who prefers the minion role over the leader one, I don't usually have trouble being involved in plots.

Of course that doesn't mean I won't miss the action because my playtimes suck. Or because I suck and die to a beetle or something before I can actually be useful.

Because I take on that minion mindset though I usually find myself involved in stuff.

Unless I am a city elf. Nobody involves city elves in anything unless they are undoubtedly useful, like if they have  monopoly on a certain skillset. And even then it is more likely they will just be executed or thrown away. If you want to be involved in plots don't be a city elf or visibly obvious breed, tht is my advice. Even half giants hve trouble gaining trust due to their intelligence.

[Delirium]

It's a rough spot. Those who would hand out plots often find themselves having to bend roleplay expectations to include city elves.

[bcw81]

It's a rough spot. Those who would hand out plots often find themselves having to bend roleplay expectations to include city elves.

In some cases, that's not even true. If the city elf is playing to documentation, and you aren't playing "Knight in Shining Armor Sponsored Role #4208", you can pretty much hire them to do all sorts of unsavory jobs. Sure, you can't hire them to do the -same- jobs as humans, but they didn't pick to play a city-elf to have the same experience as a human.

Give them shit jobs.
Whore them out.
Send them to clean the stables.
Have them spy on your enemies.
Try to put them into a position where you can use their presence to make your political rival look bad.
Tell them they may actually be something to get their hopes up so they'll do some nefarious task for you.

Honestly, the list is endless. Basically, the only thing you can't do with an elf is hire them into your clan. (Unless you're Kurac or the Byn.)