GMH Hunters - What's Up With That?

[Talia]

From a staff perspective, and what's more the perspective of single staffer who has not worked over the GMHs in any capacity (so maybe take a few grains of salt with this opinion), I have to say that this change to put orderable objects onto NPCs is very exciting to me because it has been difficult for GMH staff to find time and energy to do plot-running and animation stuff when they need to spend so much time on the routine of item orders, building mastercrafts, and the other basics. Freeing them up to do the stuff that is actually fun--bringing the world to life for the hunters, setting gith on the caravans, animating clan NPCs, and running plots--will, I think, make this question of "But what will the hunters and crafters DO now?" a moot point.

The GMH staff role appears to be one of the most draining we've had. I want to see these creative and dedicated people be freed to actually help you guys tell the stories of Armageddon.

I'm just always in support of reducing the routine and make-work aspects of any role in the game, player or staff. Hunters will still hunt if that's fun for them to do, crafters will still craft, Storytellers will still tell stories. But the "oh my god I have to log in and do a fucking job" pressure will be reduced.

[Patuk]

Imagine you're playing a normal GMH hunter dude. Not an assassin with a grudge wanting to kill all X and a spice addiction.Not a guy trying to pay off his family's debt to an elf loan shark whilst coping with his hidden anxiety over maybe being a vivaduan. Just a dude who now works for a merchant House.

Sometimes you'll have a new crafter who needs practice materials, but a bunch of hunters gather enough material to level any crafter up way high in a matter of days. Sometimes people order a thing, but that's easy. Dude wants a hammer? Cut a tree and forage stone, takes twenty minutes tops. Some noble has a favorite exotic fruit? Take 3 or so guys or a ranger and a giant, get the things. Templar wants a blade with four gems, a bahamet-shell crossguard, and an yypr handle wrapped with gizhat leather? Psi the agent in the north, ask for some things, bam.

Materials never decay. People's weapons, clothes, furniture, whatever don't break. If you're Kadius, you might sell food since it doesn't last, most of which is loaded up by staff. If you're Salarr, you might maybe occasionally sell arrows if people run out, though every clan with a ranger will also have a fletcher. Kuraci can sell spice, which doesn't involve its hunters at all.

The only reason people are going to ever really need what you get by hunting is if the big box o' shards and sapphires runs low, or if some dude needs kryl shell or mantis claws for a mastercraft. And even then, you're looking at a weekly RPT/special hunt at best, leaving six other days in the week for doing fuck all.

Go with what Desertman says and make hunters useful by expanding crafting, or eliminate the role whitt-style and let everyone live the indie life. I genuinely think either solution would beat the current situation.

[aeglaeca]

I haven't played any merchant types yet and have no idea how GMH work. So speaking as someone with no experience with it, I guess making things easier and less busywork for staff is a good thing. However, I guess I'm sort of confused about why the system is the way it is to begin with. Why does stuff need to be loaded by staff? I understand mastercraft submissions require vetting, but having to load individual items, even through an NPC, is an extra confusing bit for what is already a fairly unintuitive crafting system.

Is overhauling the crafting system something staff is looking at at all?

[bardlyone]

Go with what Desertman says and make hunters useful by expanding crafting, or eliminate the role whitt-style and let everyone live the indie life. I genuinely think either solution would beat the current situation.

If there's a significant portion of GMH stuff that needs loaded and isn't craftable, this seems like the most logical option, rather than automating everything. Or a hybrid system where the npcs will still sell 'all of the things' and they can be gotten, but that with all the stuff craftable (which seems like a good project for dedicated builders, I would think), you could buy what you can't figure out how to make, analyze it, and sell it back, etc, but still have pcs contributing. Especially if merchant/crafter pcs in the houses could trade up to 5 of the finished good to them to create a backed 'stock' of each item.

[Talia]

However, I guess I'm sort of confused about why the system is the way it is to begin with. Why does stuff need to be loaded by staff? I understand mastercraft submissions require vetting, but having to load individual items, even through an NPC, is an extra confusing bit for what is already a fairly unintuitive crafting system.

There are many, many, many items that each GMH has the "secret recipe" for (they may be craftable or not, but the objects are only sold by these clans). These are the items that can be ordered through GMH PCs. Currently, when these items are ordered, they have to be requested (by an Item Order through the request tool) and then a GMH staff member has to load those objects onto an NPC in game, then resolve the request. There's no other way for the GMH PCs to get the items to sell.

The change will make these objects available on NPCs to the appropriate GMH PCs without staff intervention. Much like you go to the Bazaar to buy something, GMH PCs with access will be able to go to the NPCs in their warehouse and purchase the objects which can then be re-sold to the PCs who want them.

It really has nothing to do with crafting other than the fact that some items sold by the GMHs are craftable by those clans.

Is overhauling the crafting system something staff is looking at at all?

No.

[Patuk]

Yeah, idk. I asked why crafting lists aren't made available and got purposefully ignored. Similar things seem to happen with makingeverything craftable. They seem like good ideas, but it also seems like neither idea is due to happen soon.

[aeglaeca]

Oh, okay. Thanks for the explanation!

[Revenant]

I highly approve of this change, and I forsee a number of benefits. Old recipes lost under the sands of time will now be easily discovered again through use of the analyze command, and house hunters will be better equipped, as a number those rare and not so rare materials coming in will be freed up to be used for making gear that, otherwise, would raise the question "But what happens if we get a big order in in the near future?". There will be less concern about failing a craft roll, so a newbie crafter will feel more involved in plots involving rarer materials. Further, if there is a need for "hunt X of Y" plot, staff can simply work out an RPT plot, while leaving the crippling reality of not being able to access the virtual resources of the house to gather the materials somewhere in the past.

[Nyr]

Yeah, idk. I asked why crafting lists aren't made available and got purposefully ignored. Similar things seem to happen with makingeverything craftable. They seem like good ideas, but it also seems like neither idea is due to happen soon.

Crafting lists aren't made available as a matter of policy.  That policy is pretty simple:  you can discover it in-game, so that is where you should do it and that is where you should leave it.  Any limitations of that policy are made simpler by the planned NPCs mentioned, as common stock would be available to then analyze, in order for crafters to learn the recipe.  Some people don't agree with that, but it is what it is.

"Make everything craftable" is like saying "get everyone off of fossil fuels". It would be nice; we'd love to get to that point.  It is not an insurmountable task and we do slowly move towards it.  However, it is still a large task.  With that said, having builders would make it more doable.

[Barzalene]

Freeing them up to do the stuff that is actually fun--bringing the world to life for the hunters, setting gith on the caravans, animating clan NPCs, and running plots--will, I think, make this question of "But what will the hunters and crafters DO now?" a moot point.

The GMH staff role appears to be one of the most draining we've had. I want to see these creative and dedicated people be freed to actually help you guys tell the stories of Armageddon.

Having made it clear that in my opinion at least, GMH hunters are crucial, I'll go on to say this. We asked Staff to fix the feeling of being a the gumball machine everyone kicks while playing GMH Merchant types or agents without merchants to take all the kicks. GMH staffers didn't like being virtual and unpaid stock boys. I think that's fair. So, they fixed that. Now, Talia says they'll  have more time. They'll'll be doing more stuff. I believe her. And we've brought the problem of hunter redundancy to their attention. When they say the issue will be a moot point, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Semper]

There are many, many, many items that each GMH has the "secret recipe" for (they may be craftable or not, but the objects are only sold by these clans). These are the items that can be ordered through GMH PCs. Currently, when these items are ordered, they have to be requested (by an Item Order through the request tool) and then a GMH staff member has to load those objects onto an NPC in game, then resolve the request. There's no other way for the GMH PCs to get the items to sell.

The change will make these objects available on NPCs to the appropriate GMH PCs without staff intervention. Much like you go to the Bazaar to buy something, GMH PCs with access will be able to go to the NPCs in their warehouse and purchase the objects which can then be re-sold to the PCs who want them.

It really has nothing to do with crafting other than the fact that some items sold by the GMHs are craftable by those clans.

Put in perspective, I think what players are worried about really isn't as big of an issue as we're putting it out to be. Let's give the PC merchants/crafters in the GMH clans more trust, and let them dictate how to best use the efforts of their hunters. Even if GMH PC hunters are no longer crucial for a GMH to function, I think the benefits overall outweight the loss.

One very important caveat to manage the changing economy of clan items is to put a hard limit on how many special items can be bought from the NPC per RL week. If the PC hunters can get that specific item sooner, or if it's already in supply, then that limit can be bypassed.

There are still a lot of non-clan-specific items that can be crafted which are not allowed for GMH houses to sell, and that is where independent merchants and hunters can really shine. If you want to play a hunter that wants to be in a crucial role as a hunter, then go make your own independent group. That is the biggest difference you will find with GMH vs independent hunters in the game presently.

The benefit for GMH hunters: They have all their basic necessities taken care of, and other PCs to help get them involved in plots. In this sense, it would appeal to a relatively new player. For the veterans, they don't have to worry so much about day-to-day maintenance required being independent and can focus more on politics.

Merchants/crafters don't have to worry about how skilled their crew is anymore. Rather, the -quality- of their crew will be more important with these changes. Overseers and Agents worry more about the political impact that their crew can have, rather than -requiring- the crew to be skilled in order to get anything done.

Bottom line: If you change the primary role of a hunter from being a hunter, then a different purpose must be implemented or the role will disappear. The GMH that is best able to provide that will attract the better quality PCs, and that alone should be able to drive plots.

[Riev]

Change "Hunter" to "Field Operations". No longer are they tied by the role applied by the word "hunter" but are now just "Salarri Field Operatives" which means they don't do their work in the Compound so much as in "the field".

This way, vets aren't tied to "You are a hunter and can never leave", newbies can still feel free to hunt, and a "Field Operative" can be more like that squirmy, greasy assassin that just listens in on everyone's conversations and steals their favorite cloaks, drumming up business. Hunter? Nah. FIELD OPERATIVE.

Your terms may vary.

[whitt]

Change "Hunter" to "Field Operations". No longer are they tied by the role applied by the word "hunter" but are now just "Salarri Field Operatives" which means they don't do their work in the Compound so much as in "the field".

Nice!

[Down Under]

The nice thing about that idea is that it expands the idea of who a GMH might hire into those positions, changing it from 'hunter' to 'someone who represents the interests of the House abroad'. That could include hunting, or aide work, or spying, or 'acquisition of resources'. Or snubbing out the competition.

[Patuk]

Thank you for giving me an answer, Adhira. If anything, it's made me wonder how big the list of crafting recipes really is.

[Barzalene]

There are many, many, many items that each GMH has the "secret recipe" for (they may be craftable or not, but the objects are only sold by these clans). These are the items that can be ordered through GMH PCs. Currently, when these items are ordered, they have to be requested (by an Item Order through the request tool) and then a GMH staff member has to load those objects onto an NPC in game, then resolve the request. There's no other way for the GMH PCs to get the items to sell.

The change will make these objects available on NPCs to the appropriate GMH PCs without staff intervention. Much like you go to the Bazaar to buy something, GMH PCs with access will be able to go to the NPCs in their warehouse and purchase the objects which can then be re-sold to the PCs who want them.

It really has nothing to do with crafting other than the fact that some items sold by the GMHs are craftable by those clans.

Put in perspective, I think what players are worried about really isn't as big of an issue as we're putting it out to be. Let's give the PC merchants/crafters in the GMH clans more trust, and let them dictate how to best use the efforts of their hunters. Even if GMH PC hunters are no longer crucial for a GMH to function, I think the benefits overall outweight the loss.

One very important caveat to manage the changing economy of clan items is to put a hard limit on how many special items can be bought from the NPC per RL week. If the PC hunters can get that specific item sooner, or if it's already in supply, then that limit can be bypassed.

There are still a lot of non-clan-specific items that can be crafted which are not allowed for GMH houses to sell, and that is where independent merchants and hunters can really shine. If you want to play a hunter that wants to be in a crucial role as a hunter, then go make your own independent group. That is the biggest difference you will find with GMH vs independent hunters in the game presently.

The benefit for GMH hunters: They have all their basic necessities taken care of, and other PCs to help get them involved in plots. In this sense, it would appeal to a relatively new player. For the veterans, they don't have to worry so much about day-to-day maintenance required being independent and can focus more on politics.

Merchants/crafters don't have to worry about how skilled their crew is anymore. Rather, the -quality- of their crew will be more important with these changes. Overseers and Agents worry more about the political impact that their crew can have, rather than -requiring- the crew to be skilled in order to get anything done.

Bottom line: If you change the primary role of a hunter from being a hunter, then a different purpose must be implemented or the role will disappear. The GMH that is best able to provide that will attract the better quality PCs, and that alone should be able to drive plots.

It's not enough. They need to be important. They need to feel important. Indies are great. Indies drive stories and have things to strive for. The Great Merchant houses are the establishment and provide something for the indies to strive against and something to fear. All the interesting stuff shouldn't belong only to the unclanned.

[CodeMaster]

I don't know if it's implemented yet, but if the NPCs that sell to GHM employees only loaded a small random subset of everything that's orderable, then...

- GMH employees that stuck around for a while would have access to more orderable gear, and thus know more recipes.
- GMH employees would get to play the fun game of discovering new items in their database.
- Gear wouldn't be necessarily available 'on demand' unless an enterprising merchant went to the effort of keeping a backstock.  It might take a day, or a week, for an order to come in -- unless the GMH member has the recipe and hunters to get the items.

So, staff would remain uninvolved, but there'd still be a bit of challenge and discovery.

[Barzalene]

Also, another thing to take into account, is that they will have access to the ordinary items. Someone is always going to want the extraordinary. Also, hunters can hunt things to keep other people from having them.

(Sorry. Spitballing here.)

[Harmless]

I don't know if it's implemented yet, but if the NPCs that sell to GHM employees only loaded a small random subset of everything that's orderable, then...

- GMH employees that stuck around for a while would have access to more orderable gear, and thus know more recipes.
- GMH employees would get to play the fun game of discovering new items in their database.
- Gear wouldn't be necessarily available 'on demand' unless an enterprising merchant went to the effort of keeping a backstock.  It might take a day, or a week, for an order to come in -- unless the GMH member has the recipe and hunters to get the items.

So, staff would remain uninvolved, but there'd still be a bit of challenge and discovery.

this idea is amazing. Put them on rotations like the Kadian clothes shops in Allanak and Tuluk. Genius and definitely increases the need for hunters. Good job!

[Molten Heart]

Change "Hunter" to "Field Operations". No longer are they tied by the role applied by the word "hunter" but are now just "Salarri Field Operatives" which means they don't do their work in the Compound so much as in "the field".

This way, vets aren't tied to "You are a hunter and can never leave", newbies can still feel free to hunt, and a "Field Operative" can be more like that squirmy, greasy assassin that just listens in on everyone's conversations and steals their favorite cloaks, drumming up business. Hunter? Nah. FIELD OPERATIVE.

Your terms may vary.

Superb.

[solera]

I hope that if you are a PC, you will always have to wait for PCs to procure fresh 'horror shell before you can buy your armour.

[Centurion]

I'm just going to throw a perspective up into the air, which is probably similar to the noble thread that was ongoing, but not so much related to power...

The GMH need a lot more money sinks that AREN'T taxes or whatever to just suck up to nobles or Templars. Yes, they should still do that, but also, they need to be able to splurge. This is more directed to the mid-high ranking members, but I think if they have more ways to spend their cash, they will want to make more when they start to run out. I know as one GMH agent I made easy cash, and I got rich and it becomes difficult to spend it (within my limits as a commoner). If the agents and like are fighting for coin, then the hunters below them should be kept pretty busy. I'm sure the PC's can buy the common stuff and not so common stuff from the NPC's everyday all day, but they won't make as much profit as the items that can be crafted with items found in game. Someone start another thread with ideas for mid-high caste commoners to spend lots of cash on rare items and in unique ways?

[Barzalene]

Change "Hunter" to "Field Operations". No longer are they tied by the role applied by the word "hunter" but are now just "Salarri Field Operatives" which means they don't do their work in the Compound so much as in "the field".

This way, vets aren't tied to "You are a hunter and can never leave", newbies can still feel free to hunt, and a "Field Operative" can be more like that squirmy, greasy assassin that just listens in on everyone's conversations and steals their favorite cloaks, drumming up business. Hunter? Nah. FIELD OPERATIVE.

Your terms may vary.

Superb.

I missed this on my first read through, but yes. This might be a real thought to turn over. Widen the scope. Open the possibilities.

[Nyr]

Thank you for giving me an answer, Adhira

YESSSS

our plan is working

[Nyr]

But srsly:

If anything, it's made me wonder how big the list of crafting recipes really is.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47812.msg837677.html#msg837677 will show you what crafting numbers were for August, 2014.  Total numbers were 4613.  I didn't want to dig down into each one again, but current totals are 4899.  No, we didn't make 286 new crafts in the past 8 months--I just didn't scrub the data like I did last time.  I think I'm also able to see some hidden crafts now.   I do know that since August 2014, there have been 82 new mastercrafts approved.  The overall crafting recipe list is pretty big, though.