Armageddon Brainstorming - Get it while it's hot/

[FantasyWriter]

4 pages into the thread, my money is still on expanding staff to include a group of non-plot focused roles.  Builders, administrative, and other non-story driven tasks.

[Patuk]

If you want both, you special app anyway. Unless everyone wants to play HG master tailors or delf nilazi slipknives, the amount of special apps will lower if that is implemented.

[Tetra]

If you want both, you special app anyway. Unless everyone wants to play HG master tailors or delf nilazi slipknives, the amount of special apps will lower if that is implemented.

So how would karma convert into GCP?  Don't staff want to keep main guilds karma restricted, and have players spend GCP for extended subguilds?

[Malken]

I think it would probably be more fruitful to steer the suggestions away from the "big code revamp" ideas, to how we can improve without having to rebuild the mud, etc.  Even what seems like a small code change can be considerably more complicated than one might think.  Suggestions about process stuff is (usually) easier to implement and thus more likely to have an impact.

Well, to be fair, it seems like most of what takes a lot of time for Staff is related to the fact that you are working with super wonky crazy old code patched up over some other crazy old wonky code.

There used to be a Staff member (who's name started with an R I believe) that was about to integrate most of that stuff to be executed via a web page instead of the mud itself but I think he left before it was completed, so I don't think you need a Valve-like budget to make it work, you just need the right guy/girl for the job (which is probably the tricky part).

Patching up the mud with new code-stuff will probably be harder and harder as the years go by because knowledge of good ol' Diku isn't really being passed on from generation to generation.

Anyway, sorry for the sidenote, but I strongly believe that a huge part of Staff's problem is that you are all dealing with archaic methods but you are all probably aware of that so yeah 

[Malken]

If you want both, you special app anyway. Unless everyone wants to play HG master tailors or delf nilazi slipknives, the amount of special apps will lower if that is implemented.

So how would karma convert into GCP?  Don't staff want to keep main guilds karma restricted, and have players spend GCP for extended subguilds?

You sound like you haven't read what I wrote at all

There would be no GCP - My main point is that if I can make 15 whirans in a row because I have the karma for it, and a lot of people do, it's because I'm trusted not to abuse whiranish powers and play properly. If I were to make 15 warrior outdoorsman in a row because I have the karma to do so, how is it worse than me creating 15 whirans in a row?

I wrote that you would only be able to either choose a karma guild or a karma subguild. If you wanted a whiran / slipknife (seriously, only Delirium has the karma for that sort of stuff!), then I would need to special app it.

[Tetra]

If you want both, you special app anyway. Unless everyone wants to play HG master tailors or delf nilazi slipknives, the amount of special apps will lower if that is implemented.

So how would karma convert into GCP?  Don't staff want to keep main guilds karma restricted, and have players spend GCP for extended subguilds?

You sound like you haven't read what I wrote at all

There would be no GCP - My main point is that if I can make 15 whirans in a row because I have the karma for it, and a lot of people do, it's because I'm trusted not to abuse whiranish powers and play properly. If I were to make 15 warrior outdoorsman in a row because I have the karma to do so, how is it worse than me creating 15 whirans in a row?

It's not better or worse.  Seems like the GCP augments the privileges of karma by allowing you to, once in a while, grab that extended subguild for the karma guild, or for the non-karma guild.   I don't know if karma classes can be fairly paralleled to extended subguilds, because karma classes are entirely unique.

Extended subguilds are mirroring regular subguilds, only in that they are much more superior.  It doesn't make sense to make it one or the other.  We want to _reduce_ requests in the request tool.  Why make someone who wants a whiran outdoorsman special app. when they can just implement GCP and subguilds into character creation?

If you code it the way you're asking, then it doesn't really capitalize on the desire to streamline requests.

[seidhr]

There used to be a Staff member (who's name started with an R I believe) that was about to integrate most of that stuff to be executed via a web page instead of the mud itself but I think he left before it was completed, so I don't think you need a Valve-like budget to make it work, you just need the right guy/girl for the job (which is probably the tricky part).

Yeah I started walking a marathon this morning when I got out of bed and walked into the bathroom to brush my teeth, I just didn't 'quite' get there. 

Being on staff, I don't think tools are that big of a problem.  We actually have some pretty decent tools to work on things.  Building can be a pain in the butt, but not always - and our focus isn't really on making the world bigger or redoing all the descriptions in the game for no reason.  Ultimately the world is just a sandbox for people to RP in.  We're wanting to facilitate that more efficiently, and be able to spend our time on things to help that happen instead of other things.  Our toolset itself, I personally would not label that big of a problem, but everyone's got their own opinion.

[Marauder Moe]

Maybe extended subguilds should be the new subguilds.  They are obviously popular, yet don't seem to have spawned a race of multi-talented supermen overlords to ruin the game.

[hopeandsorrow]

Maybe extended subguilds should be the new subguilds.  They are obviously popular, yet don't seem to have spawned a race of multi-talented supermen overlords to ruin the game.

+1

Comparing outdoorsman to hunter
Or something like Rogue to thief

It's impossible to compare actually.  Once you taste those sweet extended subguilds, it can make the regular sub-guilds feel useless.
A few I don't even know why they exist.

Of course I could go on a small tirade on why I think all the classes need an overhaul.

[Narf]

Maybe extended subguilds should be the new subguilds.  They are obviously popular, yet don't seem to have spawned a race of multi-talented supermen overlords to ruin the game.

I seem to recall that one of the design goals for the base classes was that interdependence would be a thing. Extended subguilds may not completely eliminate interdependence, but they certainly reduce it a lot.


Honestly, I like it the way it is. Everyone can play an extended subguild once in a while, but no one can play them all the time.

[nauta]

Maybe extended subguilds should be the new subguilds.  They are obviously popular, yet don't seem to have spawned a race of multi-talented supermen overlords to ruin the game.

I seem to recall that one of the design goals for the base classes was that interdependence would be a thing. Extended subguilds may not completely eliminate interdependence, but they certainly reduce it a lot.


Honestly, I like it the way it is. Everyone can play an extended subguild once in a while, but no one can play them all the time.

One idea to reduce paperwork (if it's paperwork at all) is to "retroactively" police abuse of the extended subguild system - so let players pick whatever they want within their karma range, and tell them they are only allowed one extended subguild every X months, and if they abuse this, give them a bap on the nose afterwards.

[Narf]

The GCP thing where you spend points which automatically regenerate over time sounded like a good idea for automating it. This was the original intent when the extended subguilds were introduced. I worry that the "bap on the nose" part of the equation would take more time than you imagine, and be somewhat unpleasant for staff to enforce.

I think an automated system is the way to go with this.

[RogueGunslinger]

Personally I don't want extended subguilds to become the new subguild, which is what would happen if they were always available.

If your characters live for at least 4 months they already are.

[Malken]

Okay, this thread is sorta "Just throw any ideas out there and we'll see if we like them or not - Staff".

We don't really need to discuss forever as to why you personally like it or not.

We can move on to the next idea!

[Riev]

I think a lot of it is devolving because, like Adhira said... they want feedback and ideas but they really don't know what they are looking for. So far, the thread could be boiled down to this:

Staff: Guys, we work hard, and we can't always BE Storytellers. Any ideas to cut workload?

Us: (A bunch of random ideas, code tweaks, examples from real life)

Staff: We're not looking for any of that, because its not applicable or takes too much involvement.

Us: Well what do you work the most on?

Staff: A bunch of random 20minute assignments.

Us: How about you farm out those smaller, tedious assignments to non-world-affecting volunteers?

Staff: We have enough people on staff.

Is that about right? Because other than a couple ideas that really gained traction, it seems like neither side quite understands what the problem at hand is.

[Marauder Moe]

That's why it's brainstorming, not engineering.

[Riev]

Curious about the staff conversation and reaction to these ideas. Are you guys finding yourselves reevaluating in unexpected ways?

It's a good question.  While this thread isn't designed to be a staff/player back and forth brainstorming session, I can say we are listening and discussing the situations as a whole.  Naturally, that includes some of the points brought up here.

Keep the ideas coming until the thread closes down.  We love the input!

I mean... its not even brainstorming with the people who it affects.

[Semper]

Curious about the staff conversation and reaction to these ideas. Are you guys finding yourselves reevaluating in unexpected ways?

It's a good question.  While this thread isn't designed to be a staff/player back and forth brainstorming session, I can say we are listening and discussing the situations as a whole.  Naturally, that includes some of the points brought up here.

Keep the ideas coming until the thread closes down.  We love the input!

I mean... its not even brainstorming with the people who it affects.

 Funny, cause that's kind of what the Title of the thread is? Why is there this perceived gap between staff and player conversation?

[Down Under]

Another idea to lighten Staff work load, is to farm out building projects/NPCs/Backgrounds on the 'Player Collaboration' forum a bit more often.

While it may not seem like Staff needs to do this (they may well be capable of building, both NPCs and Rooms and so forth), I imagine this time stacks up, and detracts from the time that can be spent telling stories and animating.

If, perhaps, more of these projects were farmed out to the player base (of which several seem interested in doing pedantic building projects), then perhaps that would free up some more time?

----

Another idea to find out how things are going with Leadership PC's is to perhaps have an exit interview/series of questions asked of a Player when they store or die. It might help illuminate why X Y Z Nobles store, or GMH Merchant #42, and help Staff fix problem areas very specifically that frustrate Players in those roles.

----

Another idea is to perhaps have Staff rotations more often -- Have Staff oversee an area of the game for the span of a project or two, and then switch. It may have the effect of Staff having less agency with one area or series of PCs, but it also may allow more neutral animations and less territorial carving of niches. I know that before Staff rotations existed, some Staffers watched areas/clans of the game for multiple years at a time. It seems like Staff rotations happen when a Storyteller goes to Legend, or more Storytellers come on board. Maybe it should revolve less around that, and more around project completions, more or less.

[Nyr]

I think a lot of it is devolving because, like Adhira said... they want feedback and ideas but they really don't know what they are looking for. So far, the thread could be boiled down to this:

Staff: Guys, we work hard, and we can't always BE Storytellers. Any ideas to cut workload?

Us: (A bunch of random ideas, code tweaks, examples from real life)

Staff: We're not looking for any of that, because its not applicable or takes too much involvement.

Us: Well what do you work the most on?

Staff: A bunch of random 20minute assignments.

Us: How about you farm out those smaller, tedious assignments to non-world-affecting volunteers?

Staff: We have enough people on staff.

Is that about right? Because other than a couple ideas that really gained traction, it seems like neither side quite understands what the problem at hand is.

No so much, closer to this:

Staff: Guys, we work hard, and we can't always BE Storytellers. Any ideas to cut workload?

Us:  some things that players may just want to see happen that may not actually help, a smaller number of things that would be great if this were not a free game and if we had paid people with real resources, and an equally small number of things that are the diamonds in the rough that provoke thought.

Staff:  that stuff is fine if you want to propose it, but please don't get bogged down in what you "want to see happen".  Let's aim for things that would help with streamlining or make things better.

For instance:

Find a place for digging clay in Allanak, fleshing out more item descriptions -- these were some of the first suggestions, and this is what we were trying to steer players away from when we chimed in.  (Neither of these things actually streamline things, they are just work for some staff member to do at some point.  It doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, it just means it isn't what this thread is aiming for.)  There are some ideas that are a bit out there in terms of left-field ideas, and that's fine, we're asking for brainstorming, but they just may not work for a volunteer game.  (Like...scheduled chat times, office hours, etc--that might work for an online course you are paying for, but I'm not sure if it would work for meeting with your clan staff.  It is thought-provoking, definitely, and it is different, but is it truly "better" for staff in terms of time spent?  How can that replace all that goes into reports?)  There are also ideas proposed that are actually already implemented, like how reimbursements already work that way.  There are also players are asking to do away with policies that do not exist.  Like...the massive amount of red tape that doesn't really exist for staff as a whole.  Or...that staff can't animate on the fly for a traveling group somewhere even if it's not their clan.

Not a big deal, we are just trying to focus in on things that would be of most benefit.  Post as you will.

Us: Well what do you work the most on?

Staff: here is the list of requests that we work on, though given by time involved per request on average (and not given with additional numbers on how many there are, so something that takes about 20 minutes)

There are areas where the character report changes we're looking at will help tremendously in reducing staff overhead in the request tool.  To use an example, if there are 10 Bynners and 10 Bynners report each week, that's about 40 reports per month if everyone reported.  Reduce it to the leaders doing weeklies (and more concise ones) and the rest doing monthlies (and more concise ones) and let's say that's 2 leaders reporting weekly, and 8 non-leaders reporting monthly--or 16 total reports.  And that's just one clan.

Those are big assumptions, but you'd be surprised who reports that isn't a leader and how often they do so.  Saying "what else are you looking for besides reports being changed?" is like saying "so where else can you cut calories apart from the entire chocolate cake you eat every day?"  There's a reason we have this thread and then a whole separate one devoted to reports. 

Us: How about you farm out those smaller, tedious assignments to non-world-affecting volunteers?

Staff:  that's not how we do things.

In this case, since we're asking for your feedback, your brainstorming, and your contributions, it is up to you to provide feedback, brainstorming, and contributions to convince us otherwise.  This is the players' sounding board of ideas.  We've seen several great ones that have already provoked discussion among staff.  If you're wanting direct feedback right now on how we do things and why we wouldn't do X or Y, then yeah, you're going to get how we do things right now (which is to say...we don't have Builders, and we haven't since quite some time before Arm 2 was shut down as a project).  This doesn't say anything about what we might be changing, because policy or major changes like that would be handled at a higher level of review before being discussed directly with the playerbase.  There's a gap between player and staff conversation because this is your brainstorming thread.  We have our own.  Player ideas are going to be different and we realize that, so this is where you can bring them up.

[Semper]

In this case, since we're asking for your feedback, your brainstorming, and your contributions, it is up to you to provide feedback, brainstorming, and contributions to convince us otherwise.  This is the players' sounding board of ideas.  We've seen several great ones that have already provoked discussion among staff.  If you're wanting direct feedback right now on how we do things and why we wouldn't do X or Y, then yeah, you're going to get how we do things right now (which is to say...we don't have Builders, and we haven't since quite some time before Arm 2 was shut down as a project).  This doesn't say anything about what we might be changing, because policy or major changes like that would be handled at a higher level of review before being discussed directly with the playerbase.  There's a gap between player and staff conversation because this is your brainstorming thread.  We have our own.  Player ideas are going to be different and we realize that, so this is where you can bring them up.

Okay, this puts a bit more context to everything and helps me understand what's being asked for.

If it comes down to being more efficient, is it possible to organize things in terms of high, medium, and low priority tasks; a quick organization of what's more important like your gmail inbox. Each staff has an individual inbox of high priority things they must do that day, medium priority is for that week, and low priority stuff is pushed down the line until everyone does it all at once. The lower the priority, the more open it is for everyone in the team to chip in and help complete it.

Then, in order for a staff member to be free just to animate or play around with the world for the day, they just need to complete the high priority stuff for that day. When they have a little more time, they can fill out some of the medium priority things, or if these areas of their list are clear and they don't have to be participating in the game world, they can go help other staff members who may be busier with things on their plate.

Is this how things are already? I have noooo idea how things are staff side; I'm in that boat just throwing things out there.

[Semper]

Maybe for the players to brainstorm more efficiently, staff can become a bit more transparent in the tools and processes that occur behind the scenes? It would probably take a bit more staff time for that, but I think it might improve player/staff trust.

I think during the time of Arm II project, there was a lot of dialogue between staff/players, and more things staff were putting out there. Even if it's not related to flipping the game around, just that kind of transparency into how things are staff-side now and then would be great for me.

[Old Kank]

1.  Outsource the following to characters and players: Room and item creation, description changes, typo correction, and item loading.  If you play a Kadian family member, you can write up all those fancy clothing orders, and compile the crafting formulas.  If you play a Tor noble, you can load up your special scorpion-emblazoned armor.  Yay, reopen Nenyuk to players, and instead of giving them power over all private rooms, allow them to "oversee" the building of new rooms, or redecorate old rooms by re-writing them.  Allow requests flagged for certain clans to be sent to players.  These are specialized roles that can be held to a higher standard, and their actions can be reviewed and corrected as needed.

2. Use CGP, or create some other OOC currency that gets distributed evenly to purchase staff time.  Price all player requests accordingly, or set up an occasional auction to determine reasonable market rates.  You want a skill bump for your character?  That will be 10 points.  You want an extra skill added?  100 points.  It's not pay to win, it's a fair division of finite staff resources.

3. Do away with that stupid account notes bullshit.  If players demand some kind of judgement for karma, then come up with a mostly unbiased set of criteria.  Make those criteria public, and try to do away with as much of the "be trustworthy" and "get noticed" mysticism as possible.

4. I would rather be able to fix typos than submit them and expect someone else to fix them.  Me english goot.

Generally?  Loosen the reins a bit.  The game has seen a giant swell of administration and red tape over the last decade and a half, and I'm not sure the game is much improved for it.  I don't mean obscure staff policies, I mean big staff announcement type stuff.  The constant moderation of, and reliance on, the discussion boards is stifling.  Report this, but don't report too much or too little.  You can request this, but only so often.  You can't play this role, or do that thing, because that makes more work for the staff.  You set up "regular reporting" as the benchmark of a good player, and people are going to send in reports.  That's a good problem to have because people are playing how you want them to, you just need to alter your expectations.

[Nyr]

Maybe for the players to brainstorm more efficiently, staff can become a bit more transparent in the tools and processes that occur behind the scenes? It would probably take a bit more staff time for that, but I think it might improve player/staff trust.

We have a staff page that manages a lot of stuff.  Inside it:

We have the request tool.  Players put stuff there.  Staff put stuff there too, when it has to do with approval for stuff they've done like building.  Approval usually means "I looked at it and it also looks okay, it is good to go now for players to see."
We see character approval stuff in a web tool.
We can see all account notes in a tool.
We can look up all PC info in a tool.
We can look at all bios in a top-level tool.
We have where surveys in a tool.
We have bug/typo/idea management in a tool.
Crafting is also in a tool.
Foraging is in a tool.
History page updates are in a tool.
We have scripting tools.  Most stuff is in javascript, some of it is in C.  Some really old stuff is in dmpl, but most has been converted.
Shops are in a tool.
Helpfiles are in a tool.
Weekly updates are in a tool.

I guess that's about it for that.

We also have the staff discussion board.  Staff put stuff there.  There's a board for clan stuff.  Staff update it with what clans are doing.  There's a proposals board.  This is for staff to propose stuff.  Things get shot down, approved, or tabled there.  We've discussed how that all works somewhere else on the GDB, I'm sure.  There's a plotlines board, for ongoing plots or things that have already been approved.  There is a kudos thread for kudos.  There is a coder board for detailing code changes.  There is a scripting board for scripts and questions about them.

So what processes do you think you need to know about in order to be more efficient in brainstorming about how we can be more efficient?

[whitt]

So what processes do you think you need to know about in order to be more efficient in brainstorming about how we can be more efficient?

Well, if Arm runs like any other process driven work engine, I'd bet that 80% of your workload is covered in 20% of your available tools.  So, where does staff feel the biggest amount of pain with regard to administrative duties?  That is where the brainstorming should be focused.