Leadership Taxicab Confessional

[Is Friday]

What problems do you have when you play a leader PC? What is difficult for you? What was fun? Would you do it again? No recent character mentions.

Edit: I'll start us off.

I played a GMH Merch quite a while ago. It was difficult for me to not be bothered by the political fallout created by prior PCs. Otherwise I really enjoyed the role.

One of the best things about playing a leader is being that enabler for PCs.

Because I tend to play antagonists I might be better suited to beta roles in clans.

[RogueGunslinger]

I always battle between having to spend time recruiting/training/patrolling/hunting, and my desire to create fun and interesting new things to do so people don't get bored, run off and die to a scrab. Usually I just get stuck in a rut of just following the schedule and recruiting folks. I also battle between wanting to do me stuff and have me time, and devoting my roleplay time to helping others.

I've found I enjoy playing the right hand man more than the person with all the power and responsibility.

[FreeRangeVestric]

I've really only been in any sort of leadership position once. Although I still enjoyed the leader character itself and didn't fall into the rut some other people talk about when they play leaders, I felt I was pretty bad at the actual... leading parts of the role. It seemed to me like I was unable to personally drive plots forward and create interesting new ones like the role requires. I still enjoyed my character's interactions and whatnot, I just didn't feel like I was really doing much at all leadership wise. The clan functioned more or less the same with or without my character's attempts to influence it.

I'd probably keep my characters more on the periphery, in the future. Just what I'm suited to, I guess.

[Desertman]

I very rarely play clan sponsored leaders. Almost all of my leaders are independent group leaders. When I am leading a group, I want to really be the one leading the group. I don't want anyone above me telling me how to play my PC and telling me what path I am required to follow. I want to hold the reins, so to speak, and not just be led around on the horse. I want to be the guy building the tracks and not just the guy riding the train.

The times that I take an interest in playing a sponsored clan leader are extremely rare for this reason. Maybe once every five years, if that.

I would have to say the hardest part about playing a sponsored clan leader is satisfying staff's desire to control what I'm doing (and thus their clan they are responsible for), and my desire to create new and exciting things for my players. It has little to do with my own enjoyment. When I take on a clan leadership role I go into it with the mind of a Dungeon Master. I want everyone who played under me during my reign to walk away saying, "I never experienced that clan like that before. That was an amazing ride while it lasted.".  If I've decided to take on the role, I've got some ideas already in my mind that I'm bringing to the table. This can be harder than it sounds. I personally end up walking a tight rope of me trying to do new and exciting things outside of "the schedule" and not making staff hate me on a personal level for being a thorn in their side and the storyline they want to present. Sometimes I do alright with it and sometimes I fall off the rope.

(This is the part where I thank staff for putting up with me over the years for trying to change all of their clans. This is also the part where I thank them for introducing the IC indy clan building structure that was just put in, which seems tailor-made for my play-style and my leadership style.)

With my independent group leaders the hardest thing for me is always keeping my people alive when I'm not online to hold their hand. I can't think of any of my people I've had die when I was online. All of them just seem to vanish when I'm not around doing whatever it is that they do when I'm not watching. This can get very frustrating for me as I tend to invest a lot of time and IC resources into my underlings. I think the introduction of in-game compounds for independent groups is going to go a long way with helping reduce this issue. Having a communal place to train/socialize within your clan will likely make members of that indy clan less likely to spend so much time out hunting spiders alone.

[Talia]

Something I see players struggle with--and this certainly affected me when I first played leadership--is the idea that their PC needs to be ICly good at things. That is, combat-capable; good at desert navigation; good at politics; good at recruiting or training; good at thinking up grand plots; etc. It's really difficult to be good at all of the things that players think are critical for any given role.

But from my perspective, actually, it's not necessary to really be ICly good at anything. That's what minions are for. And it's totally OK to play a leader who ICly sucks; in fact, it's extremely entertaining and engaging for both players and staff. Yes, this might mean that your PC gets yelled at by their boss, plotted against by peers, and betrayed by minions. All of that is not just OK, it's awesome. Being bad at stuff opens up opportunities for other PCs to contribute positively (helping your PC or clan out) or negatively (murder corruption betrayal!).

I've never seen a single player who is good at all the things that players seem to think are required to be good in a leadership role. (I include myself and everyone else on staff in this assessment.)

I'd love to see players in general sort of throw perfectionism to the wind (ICly) and just get in the game and start stirring shit up. Make other PCs hate you or love you. Then deal with the consequences as they come.

OOCly, there are good ways to be as a leader and not-so-good ways. E.g.: Not communicating (positively, collaboratively) with clan staff is OOCly not good. Not logging in doesn't work really well for a leader. Teaching your crew how to abuse the code is also not good. (I am not saying that any current leaders that I know of are doing these things, they are just examples of how to suck OOCly.)

[HavokBlue]

I've had difficulty trying to come up with new and interesting things for employees and others to get involved in within the constraints imposed by the fact that pretty much every PC leader is at the bottom of the barrel in their organization.

That, and recruiting enough minions/keeping them alive long enough for them to become anything other than a meat shield.

[Riev]

As with my normal roles, I have a hard time with the documentation and keeping things interesting for both myself and staff. Bios usually help to cover the spread  on the more important things.

I think the hardest thing is when a situation seems or feels time sensitive. "Well go talk to that merchant and find out where he got it" or "I need you to find this thing that, unfortunately, requires a staffer to be around and supervise" are some of the harder things to work with because with limited staffers and a sense of urgency, often times it feels like you aren't good enough because people are waiting.

I find it best, as a leader, to think of a long term goal like "breed fire kanks" and then, as a dwarf, break it down into smaller and smaller achievable goals. Find two kanks. Figure out how to tell if they are male and female. Learn about breeding process. Afford your own breeding stable/build contracts to rent one out. Hire a breeding master. Secretly make friends with a fire magicker. etc etc etc. Unfortunately, the good leaders have 3 of these goals going on, and I can barely maintain half of one.

[Reiloth]

I find the most important thing for my leadership PC's is to give them flaws -- Like Talia mentioned, playing the Uber Sergeant or Uber Templar just isn't as satisfying as the one with hubris and pride, or the one who will never view X or Y as a problem, or who always favors House Blar because of that one time they did him/her a favor.

Flaws make the PC more real to me, rather than a vending machine with a question mark over their head.

I have a hard time making time for the Leadership PC, and balancing my RL goals. You need to spend quite a bit of time on a leadership PC to make them pop, and to be around for people to get a hold of you. I find my RL suffers when i'm playing a leadership PC, but I also now set aside days where I hang out with my wife exclusively, or times of the day where I pursue my RL goals so that Armageddon still fills the role of 'hobby game' not 'second job'.

It's difficult when realizing that staff time is different from PC time, and the PC world moves at a much quicker pace than the Staff world. Character Reports take five days roughly, and some questions don't get answered completely in just one request -- Meaning some of the longer term goal stuff can take months to fulfill, and during that time, the PC landscape may have shifted completely. Some people die, new people come aboard, and the ability to juggle the Short Term with the Long Term is definitely a skill. I've gotten better at it over the years, but it was hard when I started out on my first few leaders.

I've found myself making leaders that aren't concerned with time-constraints, because removing that variable from their personality makes it much easier to deal with PC's on an OOC level. Having a PC who wants everything 'now' creates OOC/IC headaches that I easily avoid by just removing that personality trait. They might be impatient in other ways, but not over orders with a GMH or over matters I know will take Staff/Other Players some time to figure out. Just a waste of time.

[Desertman]

Teaching your crew how to abuse the code is also not good.

allofmywut.jpg 

[Delusion]

I've found leadership roles in Armageddon to be frustratingly restrictive compared to what I could pull off with relative ease on other RPIs. Character reports are a whole big bundle of meh. I'll do them and try my best with them if/when I play a leadership role on Armageddon, but it doesn't stop me from disliking them. They, along with other things, create a definite sense of needing to fill out a stack of forms and wait for two real life weeks to do something that isn't just "Kill X kryl" or "Collect Y scrab shells". Playing a minion, I can at least pretend the smoke and mirrors of there being a functional economy (economy should be a huge driving factor behind conflict) and interesting politics beyond pretty minor squabbles (PCs are usually minor characters at the bottoms of huge organisations) are "real".

Also, there are just too many clans, the clans themselves are too large and powerful on a vNPC level, and there are restrictive clan size caps. I feel that mentioning these things is basically opening Pandora's Box as is, so I won't say any more.

I guess Desertman's onto something.

[Narf]

Also, there are just too many clans, the clans themselves are too large and powerful on a vNPC level, and there are restrictive clan size caps. I feel that mentioning these things is basically opening Pandora's Box as is, so I won't say any more.

I don't know about too many clans, but I'd agree that the clans that exist are on average far too powerful. The least influential clan that is openly available to players is a worldwide mercenary organization with enough military might under its control to sizably effect the outcomes of major wars. A few clans like this are fine and necessary, but if players and leaders in particular want to feel like big fish, they need the option of having smaller ponds to play in.

This said, I'm hoping that opening up a clear and straightforward process for players to create their own clans is going to gradually diminish this imbalance as, pretty much by definition, player created clans are going to be smaller and significantly less influential. This will allows PCs in those clans to be far more in charge of their little piece things. I think this will draw a sort of player that might be a great mover and shaker otherwise, but shies away from traditional leader roles.

[Desertman]

I guess Desertman's onto something.

Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't say I'm entirely right, but I don't think I'm entirely wrong. There are a lot of things I really enjoy about playing in/leading a staff-sponsored clan/group.

Staff tend to give these groups a bit more attention, since they are in charge of them after all, and some of the plots and adventures they have sent me and my people on will be some of the most fun and exciting times I have had in the game. The in-game animations of my superiors in the clans I have been in has always been enjoyable for me. I love when staff brings those NPC's to life for me. I wish I could have all of my interaction with staff in regards to my IC actions through these IC means, but I understand that isn't always possible. The overall atmosphere associated with a longstanding legitimate clan with hundreds/thousands of backers provides a playing experience you will never get by/with running an independent group.

Let's not forget that my independent groups wouldn't have much, if anything, to do if these staff-sponsored clans and their players weren't around for us to interact with/hire us/be our enemies. I don't like the idea of leading a group that has nobody to play with outside of our group.

I'm not saying I dislike the way staff-sponsored clans are handled, I'm just saying I prefer to do things a bit differently personally most of the time and I'm glad there are more avenues opening up to allow people like me to spread our wings a little. I'm sure every now and again I will feel like jumping back into clan-sponsored leadership positions as well. I'm not shunning them, I'm just explaining my mindset I guess.

[BadSkeelz]

The hardest part of being a leader is feeling responsible for others' enjoyment of the game. I guess I'm responsible and self-sacrificing by nature so I kept trying at it, but I'd much rather be the nobleman's bodyguard than the noble next time. For a long time I felt a tension that my idea of fun was just radically different from others', so I would force myself to do less fun things for the sake of them.

As far as plots go, I found the most rewarding and achievable plot I could pursue was stopping others from pursuing theirs.

[KankWhisperer]

I feel like I have a big quest marker over my head.

People who beg to join then never log, clogging space for ppl who do want to play.

Fighting my mother-hen, white knight tendencies.

Having to be staff's voice in shooting down player ideas. Struggling to find something to do that matches docs, is fun, and that staff will approve.

[Kismetic]

The impatience of players who expect something now or every day.  I've had a few days in my arm career that I played 6+ hours, but I'm not usually that guy who lives for the MUD, and sometimes, some roles feel like that's a requirement. 

[Is Friday]

One of the hardest parts for me when I'm playing leaders is to cut short or tell people "no" when they want to interact.

Playing a leader is 6 days of waiting for minions to report back and 1 day of furious tasking.

[Kismetic]

The impatience of players who expect something now or every day.  I've had a few days in my arm career that I played 6+ hours, but I'm not usually that guy who lives for the MUD, and sometimes, some roles feel like that's a requirement. 

After reading back over this, it sounds like I'm saying all players are this way.  It's just a few.  And really, most of my complaints about being a leader are directed at my own limitations.  Thought I'd clear that up.

[nauta]

Hey!  I've never been a leader, but I've been a minion, and I think this could be a pretty awesome thread to get some ideas out there on how to be a good leader.  A lot of it has focused on the negatives, but what are some ideas for the positives?  What has worked as a leader both for you and crew?  I'll toss out four things I -really- liked in the leaders I've had:

1. Spontaneous.  Throw caution to the wind.  You get a report that there's some crazy crap on the sands.  Well, let's roll out and check it out.  Sure, you might die, but whatever.  It'll be fun.

2. Trusting.  There's a tendency to be sure to not trust the initiates with insider information until a little later on - to leave them out of plots - because let's face it: that's more variables and more chances for them to betray.  But I sure did have a lot of fun with a leader who just trusted us all - after all, staff can police folks who sign in to steal all of Salarr's precious weapons or whatever.

3. Non-bottlenecks.  Be a non-leader leader.  Try to offload as much of the plot stuff to the minions as possible.

4. Mingle.  Get out there.  Don't just sit in the compound and way or sit at the bar and way.  Do stuff that might get you and me killed. 

Dunno.  One day I'll be a leader, I swear.  What are some other ideas?

[BadSkeelz]

I've never been a leader, but I've been a minion, and I think this could be a pretty awesome thread to get some ideas out there on how to be a good leader

This is a sentiment that makes leaders hate minions.

[BadSkeelz]

Then again, I've often wished I could straw poll my minions OOCly just to see if the players are actually having fun.

[Is Friday]

Nauta: This is a thread for players that have played leaders to express their difficulties and share experiences. It's not meant to be a criticism thread for players who haven't walked the walk and aren't familiar with the challenges associated. I think that sort of posting will lead down a path of passive aggressive judgment rather than what I'd like to encourage: thoughtful reflection with lessons learned to help future leaders.

You're welcome to start your own thread, though. I understand you're just trying to contribute.

[Kismetic]

Then again, I've often wished I could straw poll my minions OOCly just to see if the players are actually having fun.

Oh, I had fun playing under you.  Epic fun.    

[valeria]

What problems do you have when you play a leader PC? What is difficult for you? What was fun? Would you do it again? No recent character mentions.

Problems - Taking staff "no"s graciously.  Reading GDB vaguebooking as comments on whatever I'm currently playing in the moment.

I used to have a huge problem communicating with staff, because they would do things like tell me "no" and I'd get all frustrated and upset, or I'd feel like they weren't responding in a timely fashion to something I need resolved NOW.  Now I'm something of an over-communicator.  I'm sure there's a balance in there somewhere, but I'm probably never going to find it.

Difficulties - Coming up with things for minions to do.  Not feeling weighted down by responsibility.  Trying to get anything "done" in game.  Not taking setbacks to things that I want to get "done" personally.

But most of all, getting back into the game when I haven't logged in for a while.  It's hard to want to take on "catching up," and sometimes, I feel like by taking a break I have let my minions down.

Fun - Not having to skill up.  Not having to make money or starve.  Making enemies, plotting against enemies, winning or losing.  Being corrupt or being betrayed.  Making things happen in game.  Laughing at the stupid things my character does.

Would Do Again - Yes.  I'm kind of a serial sponsored role player.  One thing I'd love to do again is a blooded merchant house member.  I think I could do it a lot better now that I'm much better about communicating with staff and care a whole lot less about what other people think of me as a player/leader.

Advice - Have fun.  Your "leader" should be a character who happens to be a leader, not a leader character.  It's very important to your fun and the fun of others to be playing a character.  Try not to get weighted down in peoples' frustrations and expectations.  Don't rely on others for your personal fun.  Try not to paint yourself into a corner: allow for character growth, changing interests, a friend to become an enemy, an enemy to become an ally, etc.  Give yourself some fears and things to exploit.  Have fun.  When you're not having fun, figure out how your character is broken and come up with some off the wall way to fix it.  Have more fun.

[Desertman]

As simple as it sounds, I usually just ask myself one question.

"If I was playing under a leader, what is something awesome I would love to see them doing/trying to do that they could include me in?".

Then I start planning on how to do that.

Then you get to the harder questions.

Is this even possible?

Can this be completed with minimal staff involvement? (since they don't have time and shouldn't be expected to be my personal quest tool)

What are some good ways to include my underlings in this process and not only include them, but make them integral to the success of the plan?

How can I make sure my underlings feel like they are actually making a difference and being a support beam and not just a building block in this wall?

How do I make my less skilled underlings still a part of this process or get them to a point that they can be a part of this process?

How do I make my entire group feel a sense of responsibility for each other and/or a sense of unity, especially in terms of the more skilled members aiding with the progression of the less skilled members?

What are some good tools to offer rewards to not only the PC's involved but a sense of accomplishment to the players of those PC's along the way?

It is extremely important to make sure you are considering not only IC rewards to the PC's, but keep in mind, the players of those PC's want to feel a sense of accomplishment too. It is like going to a northern bard event where your PC would love the songs being played, but as a player they are just boring and you can't wait for the event to be over. Don't create plotlines where the PC's would of course be having a great a time, but OOC'ly they are a snore-fest. This is also harder than it may seem. I've had some events that lasted hours where I could tell my entire group was just thinking, "Ok, my character would be all for this, but, damn, it's time for this to be over because this is boring on every level imaginable.". When you are creating reward structures and concepts for your underlings, try and make the rewards things that not only the PC would appreciate, but things the player would appreciate and find useful. Bonus points if you can make the reward tool both practical in application and sentimental in nature. Don't make the rewards to the PC's things that the players are going to have roleplay really liking but OOC'ly they could care less. You aren't playing a leader to make the game fun for the PC, you are playing a leader to make the game fun for the player of the PC.

How do I keep my players interested and feeling a sense of accomplishment for the duration of this plot/task?

What is the measurable IC gain that is going to be achieved once this is completed that will actually be needed/make sense for the game world?

That last one is likely the most important part of the puzzle. It is fun to "do things", but if you are doing things just to do them, and there is not a final goal that has a measurable and needed affect on the game world....your plotline and accomplishments will feel empty at the end. You will end up, "Sure, we did this, but why did we do it? The product isn't really IC'ly useful, so meh.". If you end up with, "Yeah, we did this, we created this, and it is useful or it was needed on an IC level and it makes sense.", you did it right.


A major rule of thumb. People like to be useful. They want to feel useful. It is important to make them actually useful. Don't just give them the illusion of being useful. Make them truly useful to the role and the plot and you will see them not only participate, but become a driving factor in the process.

The last one there is the difference between being the guy who gives the order to charge or to retreat in a battle, and being underling number 58 in the staff ran battle with the pre-determined outcome regardless of what actually happens in the fight. They can both be fun in their own way, but you have the power as a player leader to give your players the experience of the former instead of the latter. The former is far more fun in my opinion.

Give your underlings things to do and chances to fail. Don't just ramrod everything yourself into success. Sometimes your people are going to fail and sometimes they will succeed. Give them chances and opportunities to do both and have the previously discussed reward structure waiting on them for when they do pull through.

[ShaLeah]

Some people THINK they'd be good leaders but really are the kinds of people who's enjoyment of the game rests solely in the hands of whatever their leaders tell them to do.  Heh.

Anyway on point.

I hate, hate, hate HATE having to depend on staff for anything so when I play leaders I try to come up with things that I don't really NEED them for so they too can enjoy (either watching or putting a wrench in my gears). That said, sponsored roles are completely dependent on your doing what your house finds acceptable so that's always been hard for me because plots depend on participation and little every day things aren't as exciting as, you know, war, or annihilating an entire race. My Sun Runner (non-leader) had a plot to steal the flame sculpture in the Sanctuary, even siddled up to the Akai even though she was racist as hell and looked down on them. Managing that one was going to HAVE TO be staff supported. My Borsail wanted to invent a new race and while I tried to get it to be player done (rather than just virtually use npc slaves for testing) it was still going to have to take staff involvement at some point. As a leader (outside of master crafting shit) I'd rather not make more work for staff.

On the flip side, if you can't get shit done on your own and your plot REQUIRES staff then you better be ready for, no, you better EXPECT it not to go exactly how you envisioned it. That's much funz.

Recruiting has never been an issue for any of my leaders, what's hard is hiring that one you know oocly is gonna suck/fuck you and letting it play out anyway.

Delegate - as a leader I am less present than my minions. I have to trust my minions to bring me what I need to make heads roll. I want to pay off the templar cause he caught my minion fucking up. I want them taking the fall/dying for me. I want them fleeing cause they know they won't make it.  This one's HARD for me because I'm usually the tavern sitter befriending everyone and getting ALL the gossip.

I'm going to disagree with Talia and say that I'd really like to see a little more love thrown to sponsored roles.  I don't want to make a Byn Sarge and get my ass kicked by a Runner. This is actually a pet-peeve of mine. I don't want to have to ask my cousin for sid to bribe someone, I should have X amount of starting cash AND a banging wardrobe. I shouldn't be fleeing a 'tok or duskhorn while taking my hunters out. I want my starting stats to reflect the fact that I've spent 18/20/30 years trained and conditioned by my family/organization to be the best that I can be when it's warranted. Noble roles excluded on that coded skills thing. This is NOT to say all skills should be maxed out but you shouldn't be an embarrassment to your faction.

Conflict. I don't give a fuck if you're an agent, you're still not getting that escort until I can fit you in. Your order is late? Kill me, see how much LONGER it takes for my replacement to serve yer ass. Talk about that person you hate, steal their man/woman/job, make enemies!


I'd like death to be easier like it was in the old days. Not a fan of the whole "imagine the possibilities if you DON'T kill them" philosophy. Lost your three REAL year played PC on some nooble's enthusiasm? Oh well. Murder, Corruption, Betrayal. I'm kinda heartless.

What you absolutely MUST do in a sponsored role imo?

You must communicate.
You must log on.
You must be patient.
You must NOT feel it's your personal responsibility to keep a balls to the wall constant funhouse extravaganza going for other players and forget your enjoyment in the process.
You must hire a newbie and turn him into an Armageddon addict.


Tongue in cheek, my opinions are mine.