Technology

[Patuk]

In the thread about Tuluk, I saw multiple people mention that they'd like to see Tuluk progress further technologically than Allanak, if only for balance reasons.

While I agree that giving Tuluk more coded power, I really don't think what Armageddon needs is better technology.

Whether through ignorance or prior staff not caring, Zalanthas has a great deal of technology that would be highly anachronistic for something advertised as a low-technology desert world.

Here are the examples I can think of from the top of my head:

Saddles with stirrups
Wheels (wheels were unknown in America before European settlements)
Subsequently, enormous wagons
Distilled alcohol
Crossbows
Paper
See-through glass
Locks
Multiple-story buildings in many places
Paper

There probably is more, but my history-loving brain cannot come up with further examples yet. Note that I'm not even noting here how Zalanthan obsidian behaves like steel and therefor enables even more things that should not be possible.

To anyone whom it may interest, I'd like asking two questions:

What were these technological advancements Tuluk should receive that would benefit it? What are you thinking of when you suggest that?

What would keep Allanak from emulating such innovations?

Doesn't Zalanthas have enough technology already?

[FantasyWriter]

Using your list, I see two things that should be obvious.


Crossbows(some half-giant sized)+Wheels=Balista



Distilled alcohol+fire=Firebombs

A Molotov cocktail (Finnish: Polttopullo or Molotovin koktaili, German: Molotowcocktail, Russian: коктейль Молотова, translit. Kokteyl Molotova), also known as a petrol bomb, poor man's grenade, fire bomb (not to be confused with an actual fire bomb) or just Molotov, is a generic name used for a variety of bottle-based improvised incendiary weapons. Due to the relative ease of production, they are frequently used by protesters and non-professionally equipped fighters in riots and urban guerrilla warfare. They are primarily intended to set targets ablaze rather than instantly destroy them.

Crossbows/Bows+Rag+Alcohol=Flaming arrows.


Note on glass: Most glass in Zalanthas in Translucent, Transparent glass of any significant size is EXTREMELY rare.

[Patuk]

In the ancient world, translucent glass was not invented until the 3rd century bc, or a time where people from Africa brought tin in from Britain and metal was plentiful enough that the tiny island of Rhodes could have a bigass metal statue. Distilled alcohol was not invented until well after that time, and I have never read of it being used in the form of a molotov cocktail until (historically) modern times. Using oil would be much more useful for that, but even then it would be ridiculously expensive to weaponise it.

Ballistae are a slightly more complicated issue, but again - these things were not invented until antiquity was well underway. If we discount the argument that ballistae would be anachronistic, we should note that these things are never going to be codesly useful, both due to code limitations and the incredibly scant amount of situations where ballistae could even be used by PC's.

[Lizzie]

In the thread about Tuluk, I saw multiple people mention that they'd like to see Tuluk progress further technologically than Allanak, if only for balance reasons.

While I agree that giving Tuluk more coded power, I really don't think what Armageddon needs is better technology.

Whether through ignorance or prior staff not caring, Zalanthas has a great deal of technology that would be highly anachronistic for something advertised as a low-technology desert world.

Here are the examples I can think of from the top of my head:

Saddles with stirrups
Wheels (wheels were unknown in America before European settlements)
Subsequently, enormous wagons
Distilled alcohol
Crossbows
Paper
See-through glass
Locks
Multiple-story buildings in many places
Paper

There probably is more, but my history-loving brain cannot come up with further examples yet. Note that I'm not even noting here how Zalanthan obsidian behaves like steel and therefor enables even more things that should not be possible.

To anyone whom it may interest, I'd like asking two questions:

What were these technological advancements Tuluk should receive that would benefit it? What are you thinking of when you suggest that?

What would keep Allanak from emulating such innovations?

Doesn't Zalanthas have enough technology already?

Almost everything you have listed has ancient origins (Sumerians are known to have used animal-drawn carts, with wheels, as early as 2500 BC). Paper was invented during the Han Dynasty in China, which would mean some time around the year 1AD.  Stirrups also have their origins in China, at some point during the first few hundred years AD.

Distilled alcohol dates back to pre-history, but if you want to make a case for coiled steam distillation you can trace it back to the 1100's. The crossbow was commonly used in Ancient Greece. Locks can be traced to ancient Assyria.

Yes, the age of technology perfected a lot of these things, but their origins are ancient. It's not a stretch to think that a low-tech world such as Zalanthas would make use of things that existed in the low-tech world of ancient earth.

[Patuk]

The ancient world had a vastly greater technology level than Zalanthas by all rights should have. Also -distillation dates until the 1st century AD at the earliest. The pre-european civilisations in the americas lacked any and all of the technologies I mentioned.

[FantasyWriter]

The ancient world had a vastly greater technology level than Zalanthas by all rights should have.

Can you please qualify this statement for me?

[Lizzie]

The ancient world had a vastly greater technology level than Zalanthas by all rights should have. Also -distillation dates until the 1st century AD at the earliest. The pre-european civilisations in the americas lacked any and all of the technologies I mentioned.

I guess I'm not understanding why you're comparing Zalanthas to the Americas. Zalanthas is a fictional planet that lacks countries, has sorcery and mindbending and fantastical creatures that don't even have mythical counterparts in the real world, and several different sentient species that interact with each other and even take each other as mates without having to club their mate over the head and drag them into the cave first.

The quicker people STOP trying to be "realistic" the quicker they'll be able to enjoy the game for what it is, instead of what it should be "realistically."

[CodeMaster]

While I agree that giving Tuluk more coded power, I really don't think what Armageddon needs is better technology.

I am going to be a bit rude here and add a rail to your thread.  Here's what I'm tacking onto the discussion: Does Tuluk really need more coded power?

Two points I want to make:

1. Tuluk already seems to have more coded power than Allanak in some aspects.  I can step outside the gate and, with a bit of exploring, easily greb up all kinds of resources that you'd have a hell of a time getting in Allanak.  I have also read people describing Tuluk as "easy mode" (obviously from a coded standpoint, not an RP one).  Maybe more coded power isn't what Tuluk needs...

2. I think (maybe contentiously) that Tuluk would find itself in the hearts of more players if it were an underdog.  In the past it was: e.g., Tektolnes' perpetual victim, swept away in magick, conquered, reliant on a rebel force to put up any resistance whatsoever.  But now, Tuluk strikes me more as the rich kid with the strange personality than the beaten slave who escaped to freedom.

tl;dr - I think Tuluk already has some key coded benefits, and I think it should cash in on its underdog status more.

I might be totally misinformed, which is why I wanted to bring this up for discussion.

[Patuk]

Armageddon states multiple times that it is low-technology. It has virtually no metal used in its economy, and sparse amounts of wood or other useful resources. Zalanthas has no metal knives, hammers, or really tools of any kind, but I'm supposed to believe that locks make sense, or enormously sized buildings do, let alone wagons? The aztecs did not even have wheelbarrows.

[Lizzie]

Armageddon states multiple times that it is low-technology. It has virtually no metal used in its economy, and sparse amounts of wood or other useful resources. Zalanthas has no metal knives, hammers, or really tools of any kind, but I'm supposed to believe that locks make sense, or enormously sized buildings do, let alone wagons? The aztecs did not even have wheelbarrows.

The aztecs also didn't have mindbenders, sorcery, bahamets, or 10 different types of spice, some of which could boost their physical strength and endurance. They also didn't have the ability to master craft an intricate gown with neck to hem beaded embroidery in the span of 30 seconds using nothing but a length of silk.

[Patuk]

And any of these things support Zalanhans having intricate technology how..?

[nauta]

They also didn't have the ability to master craft an intricate gown with neck to hem beaded embroidery in the span of 30 seconds using nothing but a length of silk.

Neither do Zalanthans.   

[Lizzie]

And any of these things support Zalanhans having intricate technology how..?

The point is what I've said a couple times already: Armageddon is a fantasy game. It's not a sim game. It's not supposed to be realistic, it's not supposed to compare to real world technology. It is low-tech genre compared to the genre of many other games. Not compared to the real world.

[Patuk]

What does Zalanthas not have when compared to games set in medieval settings?

[Beethoven]

I'm okay with the level of technology we have now for the most part. I know some of it is anachronistic or unrealistic given the resources that Zalanthans have, but I'm glad that locks exist nonetheless. I can suspend disbelief for that sort of thing, especially when it enhances the game experience.

Also, Zalanthan history and progress shouldn't necessarily have to mirror Earth progress as far as when and in what order these things were invented.

As for my idea to beef up Tuluki defenses with technology, I just think it would be a cool way to differentiate Allanak and Tuluk. Sure, Allanak has scores of magickers to defend them, and Tuluk hates magick--we've got that. But what's the next step? How does that important distinction cause their societies to further diverge? I feel like having more advanced technology would give Tuluk more of a distinct personality and offer interesting roles to replace the roles that are "not allowed" there. I'm not as concerned with "coded power" as I am "identity." I think it'd be a cool and realistic facet.

Nothing keeps Allanak from stealing Tuluk's technology, but I can see the templars being haughty about it and choosing not to put their research into emulating these machines for the very reason that they are northern. Allanak has its own niche that gives it an advantage in wartime.

[Patuk]

Yeah.. Note here that I'm not calling for all the things I mentioned to be removed. Stirrups for example are an invention that I think makes sense just fine. It's just two leather strips tied to a saddle.

[BadSkeelz]

It's worth remembering that Zalanthas is, ostensibly, a post-apocalyptic setting. That could go a ways towards explaining the somewhat schizophrenic technology levels (as well as other things like the environment).

[Lizzie]

It's worth remembering that Zalanthas is, ostensibly, a post-apocalyptic setting. That could go a ways towards explaining the somewhat schizophrenic technology levels (as well as other things like the environment).

And honestly, all it would take is for whoever has web admin privileges to switch out the word "low" with "schizophrenic" and none of this would be an issue. In other words, it's a matter of semantics.

[deathkamon]

You know, something that can be made in the South would be something like... Maybe something that can take flight like a hot air balloon or aerial argosy? With the huge amount of spiders in the South, you'd expect at least one person to make some spider silk into a huge sack or something for a balloon, as well as a huge oil lantern to make the balloon go higher. Make a main hull made of some lightweight material from the South.  Add some rope and some fire bombs to carry aboard the balloon, and voila, you have something that can be super effective in combat.

[Patuk]

Dude..

[Molten Heart]

Magick technically is a technology, it has rules and can be understood, that knowledge has just been lost and is mostly resticted to those with power. That suggests that there could be other kinds of technology too. What about bio-tech? Maybe from the study of some remnant of halfling technology?

Some examples might be:

Symbiotic armor/weapons that subsist and live off of the bearer giving them special advantages while also having disadvantages.

Trained carnivorous plants (maybe using scent to differentiate between friend/foe where friends would need a special perfume).

Buildings and other structures grown from plants that regenerate and grow back when damaged.

What about psionic technologies?

Psionic pairings of individuals or groups by implanting livings sections from the single brain of some hyper-psionic creature.  This would be pretty cool for family members or elite military units, Giving them some level of awareness of where the other is and what they are doing/thinking.  Might work well for master/slaves, working it so somehow one of them has dominance.  If not implanted directly, maybe using some kind of living control device made from living tissue that's worn (like a necklace or something).

In lieu of literacy, what if there were certain substances sensitive to psinocics, like special crystals or something, that were capable of storing different kinds of psionic messages.

Any kind of fictional technology should also come with specific rules that govern how it works, so it's not "like magic"

[KankWhisperer]

It's worth remembering that Zalanthas is, ostensibly, a post-apocalyptic setting. That could go a ways towards explaining the somewhat schizophrenic technology levels (as well as other things like the environment).

Yeah. We don't know what technology already existed. The world is in decline, generally -losing- technology not gaining it in my opinion.

[MeTekillot]

Why's a dude who's able to see into the future while living thousands of years not introducing tech to his city to make fucking people up easier

[KankWhisperer]

Why's a dude who's able to see into the future while living thousands of years not introducing tech to his city to make fucking people up easier

He must see that the technology route is a loser.

[Patuk]

All the good technology was lost before Chuck Utep's birth, and his visions of the future only have greater horrors in store.

[valeria]

Why's a dude who's able to see into the future while living thousands of years not introducing tech to his city to make fucking people up easier

He must see that the technology route is a loser.

Maybe he doesn't want technology to rival his phenomenal cosmic power.

[MeTekillot]

or maybe i'm just the first one to think of him doin that

[Molten Heart]

muk utep is a fraud

[Armaddict]

I believe in Jibbers Crabst.

[Fujikoma]

Yeah, introducing technology, or allowing it to grow, could eventually compromise the powers that nobles and sorcerer kings enjoy by empowering an oppressed bunch of commoners with the strength they need to do some REAL damage, it might not make sense.

EDIT: My stamp idea, however, is nothing but fun.

[MeTekillot]

tek can level a city if he gets pissy

muk can literally see the future. you couldn't kill him even if you had a gun. haven't you seen that one nicholas cage movie?



trebuchets please.

[Incognito]

Necessity is the mother of all invention.

Zalanthas has progressed to a certain technologickal level.

Where we go from here? The answer is - simple - we go where we need to.

Different folks will research and develop new technologies depending on their individual/collective/geographical needs.

For example:
Hunting is very important - so it's normal that a lot of the population is working on developing better weapons and armor.
Ne'er-do-wells might be researching better ways to break into places with better tools.
House Nenyuk might be researching better security and locks.
Rogue mages might be trying to figure out a way to mask their magickal abilities from detection OR Gemmed mages might be trying to research how to augment their powers beyond a certain range.
Kurac might be researching how to make spice more potent OR how to mine more spice at a faster rate.
City-States might be researching how better to defend their population from mundane and magickal attacks.

The possibilities are myriad and endless, as long as they're based off of some IC event or condition. If you or your group/clan/house are in a position to research some kind of technology on Arm, you should probably submit a request to Staff and include:
Item:
Advance:
Based of which existing technology:
Actual need for this item:
Materials required to craft this item:
Geographical limitation and/or Clan limitation (if any):
Brief explanation of benefit/bonus to be gained from item:

Staff will probably review it and revert with a yes / no / something similar already exists in game, find out IC.

And no, you can't submit a new "variation" to an existing item/technology - your blade of uber sharpness will most likely NOT get the green flag, JUST coz it's really sharper than the existing weapons available on Zalanthas. So yeah - the reasoning has to be legit...

[MeTekillot]

You know they gotta code that stuff right?

[Incognito]

You know they gotta code that stuff right?

Of course I do!

I didn't start this thread, I was just elaborating on how technologies could be logically developed on Zalanthas (IC) and realistically implemented in the game (OOC).

There has been *some* discussion off late, which hints at Tuluk being more technologically "inventive" in view of the fact that it has a lack of certain abilities and defences. (not elaborating here coz there are discussions all over the GDB) - which might have sparked off this discussion.

[Reiloth]

I'd still be a proponent of literacy available to certain upper-echelons of Commoner in Tuluk, such as:

Master Artists, who can write treatises and essays on the essence of being an Artist, equivalents of 'The Prince', and other blubbery blabs about skulls and daggers.
Bards, who can write histories and songs and notebooks and observations and cultural phenomena.
Senior Aides, who can take dictation from their Nobles and get more books out there.

I know the IG writing platform sucks, and it'd be great to get a more functional/easy to edit version, maybe on the web, but the 'code' for literacy already exists. Making it slightly more ubiquitous in Tuluk (but equally controlled insofar as teaching goes), it creates an appeal for the city-state that does not exist in Allanak.

[Inks]

That's an awesome idea.

[CodeMaster]

I'd still be a proponent of literacy available to certain upper-echelons of Commoner in Tuluk, such as:

Master Artists, who can write treatises and essays on the essence of being an Artist, equivalents of 'The Prince', and other blubbery blabs about skulls and daggers.
Bards, who can write histories and songs and notebooks and observations and cultural phenomena.
Senior Aides, who can take dictation from their Nobles and get more books out there.

I know the IG writing platform sucks, and it'd be great to get a more functional/easy to edit version, maybe on the web, but the 'code' for literacy already exists. Making it slightly more ubiquitous in Tuluk (but equally controlled insofar as teaching goes), it creates an appeal for the city-state that does not exist in Allanak.

If this happened, maybe written things would go through the same system as master crafts?

[HavokBlue]

god no

I would hate to have to wait a month to get something approved as a book

[Reiloth]

I don't think it would need to go through master crafts.

They would have to be a completely illiterate person and put in the RP to learn how to read and write -- I did it with my Hlum before the Hlum were wiped out, so i'm talking more in a meta sense. It was very difficult RP, because the way the code seems to work, you either know how to read and write, or you don't. There is no learning curve -- So it is mostly having to put in the effort IG, show this effort to Staff over a period of time that seems reasonable to learn how to read and write, and then bump the skill to a point where you can RW.

Even then, I spent most of my time doddering around and not writing anything coherent -- But at least I could read what was in the books, and then decide RP wise what I would understand, misunderstand, and just plain get wrong.

If these Commoners have the patience and wherewithal (some would not even be smart enough to figure that shit out), then I think they should have free reign to write what they please.

For a twist, Templars could show up at their apartments or demand to see their writings at any time, just to make sure Sally Artist isn't writing anything seditious.

[CodeMaster]

"Let me see what you've written, citizen!"

This day when it had light mother called me retch. You retch she said. I saw in her eyes the anger. I wonder what it is a retch.

This day it had water falling from upstairs. It fell all around. I saw that. The ground of the back I watched from the little window. The ground it sucked up the water like thirsty lips. It drank too much and it got sick and runny brown. I didnt like it.

[Twilight]

You know, something that can be made in the South would be something like... Maybe something that can take flight like a hot air balloon or aerial argosy? With the huge amount of spiders in the South, you'd expect at least one person to make some spider silk into a huge sack or something for a balloon, as well as a huge oil lantern to make the balloon go higher. Make a main hull made of some lightweight material from the South.  Add some rope and some fire bombs to carry aboard the balloon, and voila, you have something that can be super effective in combat.

Or you could just take a huge disc of obsidian and put some soldiers on top and fly it to where you wanted to go...

[RogueGunslinger]

You know, something that can be made in the South would be something like... Maybe something that can take flight like a hot air balloon or aerial argosy? With the huge amount of spiders in the South, you'd expect at least one person to make some spider silk into a huge sack or something for a balloon, as well as a huge oil lantern to make the balloon go higher. Make a main hull made of some lightweight material from the South.  Add some rope and some fire bombs to carry aboard the balloon, and voila, you have something that can be super effective in combat.

Or you could just take a huge disc of obsidian and put some soldiers on top and fly it to where you wanted to go...

Rukkian powered flight?

[Twilight]

Errrr, no.

Damn, I swear, the helpfiles have been changed.

[jstorrie]

one thing that does bother me a bit in-game is seeing PCs try to 'invent' devices that their characters probably don't have a reason to even imagine. why would some peasant have ideas about hot air being light enough to lift balloons? or about the aerodynamics of wings? or about how prisms work, or how steam power might work, etc.? these things I guess one could find out through roleplaying experimentation in-game, over a long period of time, but it's jarring to hear random new PCs talking about Renaissance-level inventions at the bar.

[Fujikoma]

... you could power the balloon with half-giant farts.

[Patuk]

I half-assedly had a character tinker with the idea of chainmail, once, but it got nowhere so meh.

[HavokBlue]

Pretty sure chainmail exists in-game using our magickal super strong zalanthas bone or chitin or whatever.

[Marauder Moe]

Chainmail out of bone or wood would be EXCEPTIONALLY hard to make and pretty weak.

Perhaps you're thinking of scalemail?  That exists, typically made from sliced duskhorn horns IIRC.

[Patuk]

No, I wasn't, and I realised it'd be pretty useless before long. Scalemail does make sense to me, if only because it's not a large step from lamellar armor to scalemail for me.

[Reiloth]

There's definitely chain mail in game. Duskhorn bone, if memory serves.

[RogueGunslinger]

Chain-mails aren't exactly the same thing as small overlapping plates, which is what I've seen in game. Not sure if that's what you mean though.

[BadSkeelz]

Duskhorn chainmail exists.

While one could theoretically meld horn in to rings, there's very little historical evidence that anyone thought this was a good idea in reality. Given the materials Zalanthans have at their disposal, scale or lamellar armors made from small plates of bone, horn, or shell is a much better idea. Hence why there's a fair bit of it in game.

One thing that could be seen more of in game is linen armor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax

I've seen it in game but don't know if the item matched up to historical levels of effectiveness. Something that could provide decent protection against bronze age weapons (i.e. metal weapons) would probably be pretty fucking good versus a guy with a flint axe or a wooden sword. Obsidian blades, not so much.

[Fujikoma]

Yeah, but it says it was reinforced by metal... one could, however, use something like say, oh, hardened leather instead.

[valeria]

Bone ringmail makes a lot more sense to me than something like 4-in-1 chainmail.