Nuance of guild sniffing

[Incognito]

After the introduction of the Mastercrafting concept - asking someone if they can "master craft" something in a certain crafting skill, or, if they have "mastered" a certain crafting skill - borders on the intrusive.

Basically, you're asking someone whether they've reached the pinnacle of crafting in a certain crafting skill.

Now, if you're a senior in a clan or a GMH for example, putting that question to a junior, you are in essence guild sniffing.

Further, there are cases where certain PCs do not allow their subordinates to progress past a certain stage, if they do not exhibit their ability to "master craft" something, or, add to a unique line of goods. Again, I feel that this is something that needs to be stopped immediately.

You may like to have pure crafting machines working for you, who excel at their crafts, but you might have PCs with various different subguilds or extended guilds, and asking them to confirm or deny mastercrafting level, or, forcing them to make a mastercraft submission before they are given certain rank privileges - is something that borders on OOC abuse.

Yes, you are definitely free to give some extra benefits/bonuses to those crafters who are able to master craft, and no one can fault you for that. But, I repeat, that it should not be a requirement in a PC's IC progress.

You can be a hard task master and demand that your underlings work their ass off, but, again, on the same lines, you should not mandatorily require a mastercraft item, as a normal part of your assessment and promotion criteria.

Please bear in mind that there might be PCs who are portraying themselves as crafters, and possibly able to craft pretty well, but are not in a position to mastercraft, due to restrictions pertaining to guild/subguild/extended guild. Asking them to prove that they can mastercraft (or not) basically forces their hand to reveal their guild/subguild/extended subguild or lack thereof.

I would urge Staff to please give their view on this issue.

[CodeMaster]

I agree that asking someone if they think they can ever mastercraft is silly.

However, stopping someone from ascending through the ranks because they can't perform to an acceptable level (i.e., come up with their own designs) seems totally appropriate -- especially in the context of a GMH.

For example, teaching art might have nothing to do with being an artist, but you'd better be familiar with the process of creating art (in some way that's reflected on your CV) before anyone's going to hire you to teach.

I can't speak from any experience, but I would hope that it would be possible, IC, to 'fake' being a designer/mastercrafter.  For example, by paying your friend to use one of his mastercrafts to help you fool your employer.  This gets sticky, though, because I imagine a lot of GMH crafts are clan crafts, so this is a very unusual situation and I'm not sure how the OOC logistics would pan out.  Maybe it's worth an ask in ask the staff.

[Lizzie]

I think it really depends. If the Salarr crew doesn't -have- anyone capable of "master crafting" an item, then it only makes sense that they'd want to hire someone who is. That doesn't mean they should hire someone who has already branched and improved to that point - but they should at least be capable. It also doesn't mean that their crewmaster should eliminate any possibility of some other generic armor-maker or crafter. But do remember that many clan-specific craftables are only craftable if the crafter has a high skill. And the generic subguilds don't necessarily get that good. So the PC has to have the -capacity- to make the things that the house sells. If they don't, there's really no point in hiring them.

The only way to really put a kibosh on that, is to instruct all OTHER players to stop demanding master-crafted stuff. But as long as PCs want master-crafted stuff, there will be a need for master crafters in the clans that specialize in crafted goods.

[Patuk]

Just give normal crafting subs the ability to progress to master level. I have no idea why this cannot be the case already, or why playing a person who is slightly better at making swords than a normal subg weaponcrafter takes as much effort as playing a dude who slings fireballs would.

[Lizzie]

Just give normal crafting subs the ability to progress to master level. I have no idea why this cannot be the case already, or why playing a person who is slightly better at making swords than a normal subg weaponcrafter takes as much effort as playing a dude who slings fireballs would.

The regular mundane subguilds are intended as a way of rounding out the character's personality/background profile, not for defining it. If you want to be a "master" at something, you now can pick a master crafter subguild, or you can make a Merchant main guild. If you pick a non-master crafting subguild, it's assumed your character has no need/interest/plans to master those skills, and that you as a player have no need/interest/plans for your character to do it either.

[RogueGunslinger]

 I don't think my enjoyment of the game has never been hindered by people knowing my guild. I also agree with Patuk. You don't have to be a "master" to be creative, or make your own thing.


It's like saying my grandma shouldn't be able to sew my name into a sweater for Christmas because she can't make a tuxedo.

[Barzalene]

After the introduction of the Mastercrafting concept - asking someone if they can "master craft" something in a certain crafting skill, or, if they have "mastered" a certain crafting skill - borders on the intrusive.

Basically, you're asking someone whether they've reached the pinnacle of crafting in a certain crafting skill.

Now, if you're a senior in a clan or a GMH for example, putting that question to a junior, you are in essence guild sniffing.

Further, there are cases where certain PCs do not allow their subordinates to progress past a certain stage, if they do not exhibit their ability to "master craft" something, or, add to a unique line of goods. Again, I feel that this is something that needs to be stopped immediately.

You may like to have pure crafting machines working for you, who excel at their crafts, but you might have PCs with various different subguilds or extended guilds, and asking them to confirm or deny mastercrafting level, or, forcing them to make a mastercraft submission before they are given certain rank privileges - is something that borders on OOC abuse.

Yes, you are definitely free to give some extra benefits/bonuses to those crafters who are able to master craft, and no one can fault you for that. But, I repeat, that it should not be a requirement in a PC's IC progress.

You can be a hard task master and demand that your underlings work their ass off, but, again, on the same lines, you should not mandatorily require a mastercraft item, as a normal part of your assessment and promotion criteria.

Please bear in mind that there might be PCs who are portraying themselves as crafters, and possibly able to craft pretty well, but are not in a position to mastercraft, due to restrictions pertaining to guild/subguild/extended guild. Asking them to prove that they can mastercraft (or not) basically forces their hand to reveal their guild/subguild/extended subguild or lack thereof.

I would urge Staff to please give their view on this issue.

What's the criteria for promoting people if not merit? If you're not excelling at your job, why are you getting promoted? Because of time in? It's a rough desert planet, I don't think you get points for time in.

[CodeMaster]

Just give normal crafting subs the ability to progress to master level. I have no idea why this cannot be the case already, or why playing a person who is slightly better at making swords than a normal subg weaponcrafter takes as much effort as playing a dude who slings fireballs would.

I also agree with Patuk. You don't have to be a "master" to be creative, or make your own thing.

It's like saying my grandma shouldn't be able to sew my name into a sweater for Christmas because she can't make a tuxedo.

I guess there are many skills that are restricted to certain guilds  Rangers can wilderness quit, warriors can bash, pickpockets can peek, assassins can backstab.  Etc.  I bet we can all come up with reasons why a character without those skills should "realistically" be able to succeed at each of them, even to a limited extent.

I don't think it's really even a balance issue as much as a 'fun' issue: each guild has its own facets that you can't readily get anywhere else (master crafting being merchant's).

[Lizzie]

The master crafting thing is also a matter of logistics.

Once upon a time, you didn't need to be a master crafter to submit crafting things. Someone - or someones - was/were sending custom items to the staff to implement on a pretty regular basis. In fact, many of the crafted items available to make now, are the result of just that one someone - or someones.

It was great that these things were made, don't get me wrong. But it was REALLY time-consuming on the part of the staff member(s) who had to implement these things. The list of craftables was limited, and these things really helped flesh out the list.

But we don't -need- to do that anymore with those skills. The game isn't lacking for craftables, so we don't need for everyone to be able to submit however many of whatever kind of craftables they think would be fun and expect them to be even considered, let alone implemented.

So - the master crafting system was created. In order to be allowed to submit ANY craftables, you had to achieve "master" craft status. This was before players could even see the list to know what level of competency they've achieved.

If we revert back to how it used to be, which staff member do you want to NOT do anything else, in order to get dozens of master crafts that the game doesn't need, implemented?

And who do you want to replace that staff member with, when that staff member gets tired of doing nothing else and ultimately quits the staff or just flat out refuses to do any more, and no one is interested in picking up the projects?

The point of having master crafting restrictions is an OOC point, not an IC point. It's so that one aspect of the game doesn't suck the life out of the staffer who ends up stuck dealing with that one aspect, in exchange for all other aspects that might be a little more important.

[RogueGunslinger]

Except it wouldn't be just anyone. It would be people with maxed crafting subguilds who have the desire to make new items. Considering it's already limited to one item per month, I seriously freaking doubt it would be anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be.

[Patuk]

After seeing the metric fuckton of items that get added on IRE muds on a daily basis, and considering that the people reviewing those are volunteers as well.. I'm not entirely convinced that the staff workload would become too high with the number of people able to mastercraft increasing, especially not given the restrictions put on actual master crafts.

[Lizzie]

Well we have no way of knowing if it'd be a big deal or not, because we don't have access to the data.

How many people pick crafting subguilds OR main guilds that include improveable crafting skills? I mean if you're going to allow any old subguild to master something, you should at least give the same attention to someone whose MAIN guild comes with that skill.

Now, figure out how many of those people actually skill up those crafting skills to whatever the current max is.

Now - you can figure out how many mastercrafts per month, will be submitted by the playerbase. Sure, I might only be allowed to submit one per month - but so can you now. And so can Barsook, and Aruven, and Metekillot, and Kronibas, and Gimfalisette, and RGS, and BadSkeelz, and well - pretty much the entirety of the playerbase since every single guild and subguild combination includes at least a couple of crafting skills.

That's not just a couple of mastercraft submissions every month. That's a few dozen. In my mind, that's a pretty big deal and would require a dedicated staff member who doesn't do anything else.

[Patuk]

You're being very inconsistent. First you argue the workload would be a big deal, then you say we can't know, and then it would suddenly make a huge difference.

You're wrong in either case, since staff have noted that anyone wanting to submit a mastercraft has to play a character with access to a workshop or a place to work in quiet, etc etc. One couls wonder how difficult it is to make a plaited cotton dress with sandcloth frills in their own home or whatever, but the fact remains that this excludes many characters from mastercrafting.

[nauta]

After the introduction of the Mastercrafting concept - asking someone if they can "master craft" something in a certain crafting skill, or, if they have "mastered" a certain crafting skill - borders on the intrusive.

Hi, to bring it back on the RP topic, how did the RP go in those situations?

If it was:

Boss: Have you mastered fletchery yet my young understudy?

Then that's a legit question, and you could say whatever you want to say in response. (Cf. Have you mastered listening?  That's a question that doesn't make any IC sense.)

Now, I'm not sure how I would respond to the question:

Boss: Are you able to master craft an item for me?

That just strikes me as an OOC question and not an IC question, and my PC would probably blink a few times and then say: The fuck you talking about, Willis.  (And then beat Boss' brains out with a bone club.)

I guess it turns on the details of the scenario.  I, for one, wouldn't be afraid to gently nudge someone away from asking OOC questions IG.

Then again, there's a lot about the crafting and IG culture around it that strikes me as bizarro, starting with folks calling themselves 'crafters'...  

[FantasyWriter]

So someone should be promoted to Master Crafter (an actual rank in at least one GMH) without being able to mastercraft?
I am for you being less restrictive on hiring based on guild, but in some cases, rank should be determined by ability.

Has anyone here ever made it to Sergeant in a military organization with a non spec-apped merchant/sub-crafter or elementalist/sub-crafter?
Pretty sure 99% of military COs and NCOs know how to shoot a gun or incapacitate you with a baton/their bare hands.

[FantasyWriter]

Boss: Are you able to master craft an item for me?

That just strikes me as an OOC question and not an IC question, and my PC would probably blink a few times and then say: The fuck you talking about, Willis.

As long as it is a legitimate limitation OOCly (until staff changes the mastercrafting policy) then it is a legitimate concern ICly, though it could certainly be approached better:

Boss: Malik, you comfortable enough with a needle and thread to stitched together a custom robe for Lord Templar Fancyhats?
Malik: Nah, boss, you and me'd both be fire or dead if I tried.
or
Malik: Don't know boss, but I'm getting better.  What kind of timeline are you working with?
or
Malik: FUCK YEAH! I'LL BE FAMOUS!

[FantasyWriter]

To add: I've always thought that each sponsored leadership role in crafting clans (GMHs and Most tribes) should get one master craft (or one additional master craft if they themselves are capable of producing one) per month from virtual crafters.  This is one of the perks that should come along with being a part of or buying from a Merchant house as opposed to Mastercrafter Talia off the street.

I've had this issue handled in a similar way before when my PC and his minions weren't able to meet crafting deadlines, but most of the sale went to the house when I was paid and I only kept the seller's fee. (in other words: The virtual crafter got paid for their labor).

[Lizzie]

To add: I've always thought that each sponsored leadership role in crafting clans (GMHs and Most tribes) should get one master craft (or one additional master craft if they themselves are capable of producing one) per month from virtual crafters.  This is one of the perks that should come along with being a part of or buying from a Merchant house as opposed to Mastercrafter Talia off the street.

I've had this issue handled in a similar way before when my PC and his minions weren't able to meet crafting deadlines, but most of the sale went to the house when I was paid and I only kept the seller's fee. (in other words: The virtual crafter got paid for their labor).

I really REALLY like this idea. Though it has nothing to do with the topic of guild sniffing

[FantasyWriter]

Other than it should eliminate the absolute need to know in the OPs example.
If you role up a non-merchant PC for whatever reason in a GMH (I did so with my Kuraci) you are completely unable to take mastercrafting orders (again, something that in the past was a huge selling point for GHM affiliation) under strict adherence to the current policy without sniffing your minions.


Started a separate thread tyo avoid further derailing: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48454.0.html

[BadSkeelz]

Wait, nvm, I thought this was the "nuance of glue sniffing" thread

[Fujikoma]

Wait, nvm, I thought this was the "nuance of glue sniffing" thread

say (huffing deeply from ~tube) Wha...?

[Cale_Knight]

"Sniffing" for mastercrafting is no big deal. This comes from real life. Do you know where the word "masterwork" comes from? A masterwork was the very last thing an apprentice would make at the end of their apprenticeship. A single, unique piece that represented that the student had learned everything that could be taught. No longer an apprentice, but a master. A master crafter, if you will.

I do wish, with my heart of hearts, that the extended subguilds were automated. Hell, I wouldn't shed a tear for grittiness if we just replaced the crafting subguilds with their extended counterparts, whole cloth. Save the karma requirements for the extended subguilds that increase combat/exploration/magick options.

[Kronibas]

Seems fair to me to allow non mastercraft folks to submit items after a certain amount of time, like 3 IC years.  Or maybe putting time into a merchant house for X amount of time would allow someone to eventually have the opportunity to submit master crafted items.

[Nyr]

I would urge Staff to please give their view on this issue.

Guild-sniffing is generally bad.  However, some roles may well require certain things to be done, and one area in which this is most noteworthy is in the area of custom designs and crafting.  (Almost all other roles in-game can be filled by almost any kind of PC, regardless of guild.  A soldier can be a merchant.  A rinth rat member of The Guild can be a magicker with subguild house servant.  Etc.)

In general, if you are looking for someone to help out with widget crafting, you hire a widget crafter--you don't hire the guy that doesn't know anything about making widgets.  Interviewing and saying "well I'm looking for someone that can make widgets--have you ever made any widgets and can you help us out here?" is reasonable.  You DO need a widget crafter.  Saying "I need a merchant or maybe a master_widgetmaker, are you one of those?" is not.  That is fairly blatant guild-sniffing, it seems pretty OOC, and it is not cool.  You aren't even trying if you are doing this.  Take a few steps back and treat it like you would a real-life hiring situation.  You want someone that can do the job, yes, but you aren't checking off a guild list.

If you need a custom widget design done later on and you've already hired a guy for making widgets, asking him to do that is reasonable.  "Hey, I need a custom widget design--I'm looking for so and so or such and such."  If he didn't pick a guild or subguild that gives him mastercrafting for widget making, then that sucks for him and for you.  He can't get your custom stuff done because he's not that good (and the player made that decision when choosing guild/subguild for the PC).  At that point, he can say something to the effect that he isn't really a creative sort of guy, he just follows directions.  "If you'll show me how to make it, I can make it, but I'm not really sure about this sort of thing, you know?"  That's fine.

Let's say there's some rank, or special pay, or perks, or privileges that are reserved for people who can actually mastercraft (which there may be in certain crafting-related clans).  Mastercrafting is essentially doing a custom order, or creating a custom design, or expanding on previous designs.  You can probably call it several things IC--a masterwork, a great work, a custom order, a new design, etc.  If this position is reserved for crafters that can make their own designs, then yes--it seems reasonable to not give the actual IC rank to someone that can't actually do the IC job, which is to create new designs or custom orders, and to only award it to people that can do the IC job.

If that doesn't make sense to you because you feel your character shouldn't be held back by these limitations, note that it is a character choice that you made.  At least at this time, this is a game in which you will have to make trade-offs for what you desire to play.  Your character is not going to be a jack of all trades and able to do everything.  Racial selection, guild selection, and subguild selection will serve to provide opportunities as well as limitations for characters.  It is up to you, the player, to determine what is important for your concept, and then select what is available in order to play to that end.

You're wrong in either case, since staff have noted that anyone wanting to submit a mastercraft has to play a character with access to a workshop or a place to work in quiet, etc etc.

This sure seems incorrect.  Only at the very highest ends of some crafts is this something that we enforce (read:  metalworking, jewelry, or other things that would require specialized tools or knowledge not available to the average person).

[Patuk]

Oh, cool. Alright.