In Game Time

[slvrmoontiger]

I'm not sure if anyone else has asked this or thought about it before. Personally, I think that whole amount of time one day takes 1.5 hours RL is too short. For those in clans that have schedules this makes RPing with other people outside the clan difficult. Last clan I was in that had a schedule I felt like as soon as I sat down and started talking to someone in a tavern it was time to run back for training. I know different MUDs take different stances on In Game time. Some MUDs have 1 RL day = 1 IG day. I don't think that would be very effective for Armageddon, but I think something longer would be better. Maybe make one IG day = 3 or 4 RL Hours. Just a thought. Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas on this?

[MeTekillot]

hm. Maybe.

[RogueGunslinger]

Doubling the length of the day would mean doubling the length of time it takes for a year to go by, no? That or you'd have to shorten the number of days in a year. It's an interesting idea. I wouldn't want night time to go by any slower, and this would make those leave days where nothing is going on doubly annoying.


Hmm.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No. Then you end up traveling across the world in a morning. It would be great for RP events, and make sense, but honestly, unless travel became way harder, or the world was stretch about four times the size it is now, no.

[slvrmoontiger]

Doubling the length of the day would mean doubling the length of time it takes for a year to go by, no? That or you'd have to shorten the number of days in a year. It's an interesting idea. I wouldn't want night time to go by any slower, and this would make those leave days where nothing is going on doubly annoying.


Hmm.

Actually, night time being longer would allow for more out-of-clan RP. Making the day time longer and not the night time wouldn't help with that. Again, this was an idea to lengthen the time that clan members with schedules can spend RPing with people that aren't in the clan. Not extend training times or clan RP. I just find it hard to be in a clan a lot because I don't have much time to play and when I do I don't want to be training all the time and that's what it boiled down to for me. I know others have felt the same way in the past. This puts a huge damper in RPing relationships as well with clan based characters. It's also quite unrealistic when you get into romantic relationships by the time you know it half a day or more is gone and you barely even realized it. I'm just making a suggestion to put more realism into the game. People should have a life outside of their clan.

[HavokBlue]

Suspension of disbelief is your friend.

Or maybe you should mudsex less.

[manipura]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who read:

....It's also quite unrealistic when you get into romantic relationships by the time you know it half a day or more is gone and you barely even realized it...

And thought:

Or maybe you should mudsex less.

It can be a bit frustrating sometimes, to squeeze non-clan socializing into the short bit of time your character has during their non-training hours.  But there are leave days for that sort of thing and I think it's realistic that if you're in a combat-oriented clan, the bulk of your time will be spent training and hanging around with your other clannies who are grumbling IG as well about the rigid schedule.
I like the time as it is.  I would hate to have the length of the night doubled.  Think how horrible that would be for all those times when travellers are stopped somewhere for the night making camp.  Or when you miss the gates and you have to wait until dawn to get inside.  Now if you miss the gates or stop travelling for the night (which I think is realistic), you have about thirty minutes to wait.  Having to sit around for an hour RL would be pretty annoying.

[Ziel]

I just find it hard to be in a clan a lot because I don't have much time to play and when I do I don't want to be training all the time and that's what it boiled down to for me.

That's certainly a valid point, though an easy fix for that would be to avoid playing in clans that have such a restrictive schedule.  As my own playing times waxed and waned, I've also had the opposite issue - when I do have time to log in it's during a weekend.  IMHO, the point of joining a clan with a strict schedule is because you want to roleplay being in that organization.  If they have two-day weekends, that's about three hours of time spent not being in that role, not training or working or necessarily building relationships with other people in the clan.

I'm just making a suggestion to put more realism into the game. People should have a life outside of their clan.

In a world where many organizations require life oaths of service, a vast pool of commoners clamoring for a job in a lucrative House, slavery, rampant disease and starvation...

Would a healthy work/life balance really be an employer's main concern?

This puts a huge damper in RPing relationships as well with clan based characters. It's also quite unrealistic when you get into romantic relationships by the time you know it half a day or more is gone and you barely even realized it.

"My sweet, I could spend all day just looking into your eyes."
[1.5 RL hours later]
"See, babe?  Totally did just that."

[creeper386]

I've certain ran into the crap there isn't enough time. But most the time for me certain things like nights or leave days last too long.

You combine off peak play or lower clan numbers or restricted play time with longer days and nights, I could forsee being in a clan almost worthless except from a virtual "I have a job" and food and water, from my point of few. Sometimes it's a struggle as it is now.

I normally join clans for clan play, to help me get a foot into the game on multiple levels. I wouldn't be a fan of changing much the time front.

[slvrmoontiger]

That's all part of the problem. Most of the time leave days tend to fall on times that are off-peak. I've been in clans where you were forced on a mission or training or something of the sort on leave days that were during prime time. If more time was given for nights then this would balance out for peak and off-peak times. It was just a thought. I doubt this would ever change.

[Nyr]

That's all part of the problem. Most of the time leave days tend to fall on times that are off-peak.

To be fair, there are fewer leave days than work days, and there is more off-peak time than on-peak time.

[deskoft]

Leave it as it is. The lore expands by the passing of the years. If we wanted, we could simply imagine we're on a different planet where days pass by faster than normal. Therefore, a person have be awake for three days without being tired. If planets closer to the sun were habitable, it'd be like that.

[slvrmoontiger]

That's all part of the problem. Most of the time leave days tend to fall on times that are off-peak.

To be fair, there are fewer leave days than work days, and there is more off-peak time than on-peak time.

Thank you for confirming this Nyr. Do you see any ways of making it a little more even, without sacrificing times for clan training?

[HavokBlue]

I think if you have IC problems with your IC schedule you should handle it ICly.

"Sarge, I'll pull double latrine duty for a month if you let me skip this round of training to go mudsex my halfbreed whiran lover"

[Nyr]

That's all part of the problem. Most of the time leave days tend to fall on times that are off-peak.

To be fair, there are fewer leave days than work days, and there is more off-peak time than on-peak time.

Thank you for confirming this Nyr. Do you see any ways of making it a little more even, without sacrificing times for clan training?

Don't play in clans, only play at peak hours.  *sagenod*

[Kol]

That's all part of the problem. Most of the time leave days tend to fall on times that are off-peak.

To be fair, there are fewer leave days than work days, and there is more off-peak time than on-peak time.

Thank you for confirming this Nyr. Do you see any ways of making it a little more even, without sacrificing times for clan training?

Don't play in clans, only play at peak hours.  *sagenod*

I lolled so hard I squirted.

Through my nose. With juice. You pervs.

[HavokBlue]

I don't know the documentation of every clan with a military schedule component, but I think it's pretty much just the Byn, the militias, and maybe sometimes Kurac if they haven't changed in the last four years? If you want a more lax military option Kadius and Salarr both hire combat characters with less restrictions on how you handle your training, and I don't even think noble houses have schedules anymore.

[MeTekillot]

I don't think noble houses really do combat characters right now? I mean, unless your warrior has a subguild with listen and you can moonlight as an aide.

[Desertman]

Be the change you want to see.

You need to form a worker's rights group in game and push the current power structures to allow more time off for their employees.

[Marauder Moe]

That's all part of the problem. Most of the time leave days tend to fall on times that are off-peak.

I'm not sure why this point wasn't actually contested.

An Armageddon day lasts 90 minutes.  That means in an Earth day (24 hours), there will be 16 Armageddon days.  Meanwhile, the Zalanthan week is only 11 days.  So every Earth day, the Zalanthan weekday shifts back 5 days (or 7.5 hours) compared to the Earth clock.  So if Barani morning falls 8:40 PM server time one day, the next day it'll be 1:10 PM, then 5:40 AM after, then 10:10 PM, then 2:40 PM, then 7:10 AM, and so on.

The RL times that a Zalanthan weekday occurs on is not fixed, and you're guaranteed to get a weekend within your playtimes eventually.

[Nyr]

That's all part of the problem. Most of the time leave days tend to fall on times that are off-peak.

I'm not sure why this point wasn't actually contested.

An Armageddon day lasts 90 minutes.  That means in an Earth day (24 hours), there will be 16 Armageddon days.  Meanwhile, the Zalanthan week is only 11 days.  So every Earth day, the Zalanthan weekday shifts back 5 days (or 7.5 hours) compared to the Earth clock.  So if Barani morning falls 8:40 PM server time one day, the next day it'll be 1:10 PM, then 5:40 AM after, then 10:10 PM, then 2:40 PM, then 7:10 AM, and so on.

The RL times that a Zalanthan weekday occurs on is not fixed, and you're guaranteed to get a weekend within your playtimes eventually.

I went for the low-hanging statisticals.  If there are very few leave days (1-2 per IC week) and peak is short (even if we say 6 hours per RL day), then it does stand to reason that leave days will (more often than not) fall on off-peak time.  There's more of it.

[Harmless]

barrier is your friend, for avoiding those nosey higherups trying to get you to follow their "schedule." And if barrier isn't working for you, stop playing such low-wisdom patsies and start playing more devious social engineers. Sounds like you're ready for it.

[Delirium]

I wince at the use of barrier to dodge chores because you're essentially using an IC tool to convince someone you're OOCly unavailable.

[BadSkeelz]

Well, you're trying to be ICly unavailable too so it evens out.

Just don't bitch on the clan boards when you get caught.

[Marauder Moe]

I went for the low-hanging statisticals.  If there are very few leave days (1-2 per IC week) and peak is short (even if we say 6 hours per RL day), then it does stand to reason that leave days will (more often than not) fall on off-peak time.  There's more of it.

Oh.  Yeah, I guess that is actually true.   

[Malken]

I wince at the use of barrier to dodge chores because you're essentially using an IC tool to convince someone you're OOCly unavailable.

I re-read that a few time and I'm not sure I understand.. What's wrong with using barrier to convince someone ICly that you aren't around or available? I mean, if you don't get someone's mind, you know OOCly that they are probably not logged on, but what about it ICly? What happens if you don't find someone's mind ICly? Are they automatically barrier'ed up? Asleep? Dead?

So technically if you aren't doing what you're supposed to be doing schedule-wise then you are either ICly asleep or dead, which is both a bad thing.. So one has to assume that if you aren't doing your job or following your schedule, then you are OOCly logged out, because ICly, if you aren't present, you are automatically slacking off (again, if you aren't present, then you are assumed, ICly, to be either dead or asleep, whether you are barrier'ed up or not, you're fucking up).



Ouch, now my mind hurts..

[Delirium]

If they can't find your mind (while you are logged in) it could be due to any number of factors, up to and including the simple vagaries of the Way, but you are still available to roleplay and are not considered a part of the "virtual backdrop" - if you are not seen in the training hall it is because you are actually not IN the training hall.

If they can't find your mind (while you are logged out) you are part of the virtual crowd and could very well be in that training hall at that moment. But the player behind the Sergeant/Authority figure has no way of telling the difference between you being training like a good boy virtually, or schlepping off to bang your half-breed lover codedly.

It's a grey area and I can see arguments for both sides, which is why I don't necessary condone it, but I don't necessarily love it either.

[Saellyn]

not my fault barrier is mastered and i snuck out to bang that nobles aide am i right?

[Malken]

not my fault barrier is mastered and i snuck out to bang that nobles aide am i right?

Yeah but you can't really explain why you aren't in the building ICly, since if someone is looking for you and can't find your mind they must assume that you are either dead or asleep somewhere, or passed out.. Which all mean, ICly, that you aren't present doing the job or following your schedule that you are supposed to!

Thanks a lot Delirium, this is just like thinking about what was before nothing and how the galaxy was formed if there was nothing before something

[RogueGunslinger]

This is one of those weird ares of arm that everyone just sort of ignores in-game because it's not easy to explain. You can't exactly log in one day, and tell everyone ICly that you were around last week on the day you didn't log in. They didn't see you and couldn't interact with you, how could you have been there?

[Desertman]

I get what Delirium is saying, if you are using barrier to make them not look for you and you are online....you are basically trying to fool them into thinking you aren't online.

The only reason you don't get crap about not being where you are supposed to be is because they OOC'ly are being OOC'ly considerate of your feelings and the fact not everyone can be online 100% of the time.

It is basically taking advantage of an OOC consideration on an IC level.

Then again, how else are you supposed to dodge the fact we all have instant access messenger systems in our brains that work without fail across the entire world.

Another thing to go into the "Changes for The Way" thread I think. For now, there isn't much else you can do.

[TheWanderer]

i have my barrier up for two reasons

ONE: i don't like listening to the voices in my head.

TWO: 'cause fuck you, that's why.

[nauta]

i have my barrier up for two reasons

ONE: i don't like listening to the voices in my head.

TWO: 'cause fuck you, that's why.

I wish you could barrier individuals and not everyone.  A whitelist for the mistresses and a blacklist for the bosses.

[slvrmoontiger]

Just because you have barrier up and are not reachable, people shouldn't automatically assume you aren't logged in. That's mixing IC with OOC and that's not correct. If my PC can't reach another PC then it's simply for some reason my PC can't reach the other PC. This doesn't automatically mean that the other PC isn't logged in and I never assume that because that's OOC and it doesn't matter to my PC.

[CodeMaster]

Just because you have barrier up and are not reachable, people shouldn't automatically assume you aren't logged in. That's mixing IC with OOC and that's not correct. If my PC can't reach another PC then it's simply for some reason my PC can't reach the other PC. This doesn't automatically mean that the other PC isn't logged in and I never assume that because that's OOC and it doesn't matter to my PC.

There's no choice but to mix up IC and OOC in this situation.

There are only a couple of coded reasons someone might not be reachable: (a) they have a barrier up, (b) they are frickin dead.  To deal with the "that PC's player is offline" case, it's up to us, OOC, to make up a plausible IC excuse.

Remedies?

It would be cool if you could send Way messages to people who were offline.  They'll get them when they come online (unless they are dead, and you're just sending messages to an afterimage).

[edit: UNLESS they put up a barrier.  If they have a barrier AND they are offline, then you get the normal fail message.  Then you can tell, ICly, that this person was using a barrier, as opposed to wasn't just logging in]


Alternatively, it might be interesting if the Way truly was fickle in a coded way.  Like you and your target had to be in mutually compatible rooms to be able to reach other (both in rooms with odd-numbered identifiers, as a really simple example).

[nauta]

Just because you have barrier up and are not reachable, people shouldn't automatically assume you aren't logged in. That's mixing IC with OOC and that's not correct. If my PC can't reach another PC then it's simply for some reason my PC can't reach the other PC. This doesn't automatically mean that the other PC isn't logged in and I never assume that because that's OOC and it doesn't matter to my PC.

Has this ever been discussed?

1. Have way respond differently

(a) when you reach out to the mind of someone dead, e.g.:

That mind feels real dead, sorry.

(b) when the person is far away, e.g.:

That mind feels pretty far away.

(c) when the person is asleep / barried / chilling in those no-way zones, e.g.:

That mind feels asleep, or at least something is blocking it.

(d) when you fail because you suck at the way, e.g.:

That mind might be there but you stink.

(e) when someone is offline, e.g.:

That mind might be asleep or far away, but OOCly it feels like it is offline.  

I know right now it does (c) only, and (e) might be silly, but (a) could really be handy when you aren't sure if they are just not logging in or dead/stored.  This happens a lot and (i) it sucks since you can't really mourn for the dead since you don't know they are dead dead until much much later and (ii)  clans already get around this with the roll-call thing.
(Maybe have it come around after a month or something to leave the mystery.)  And with the current climate of secrecy about these things (maybe that's a permanent thing) it honestly is a bummer to never know if someone died or just stopped playing.

2. Also, related, sometimes I reach out to someone and I get: "That mind is too foreign to you"  (or something weird like that) rather than "you are unable to reach their mind" when the PC is offline.  What's up with that?

[Talia]

This thread is skirting the line of IC information and may already have gone over. Please be careful.