Let's talk about AoD Clerks

[Beethoven]

There has been a little bit of discussion about Militia Clerks going on around the margins of the most recent log post thread.

I for one loved the role of Clerk, and here's why.

Clans right now tend to be pretty one-dimensional and predictable. If you hear that a PC works for the Byn, you can bet it's a mercenary. That doesn't mean that they're necessarily a coded warrior or ranger, but the job they are attempting to perform is that of a mercenary.

Of course, we know that there are more than just mercenaries working for the Byn. They have to keep the place up and running somehow. Cooks, quartermasters, possibly janitors (although you could argue that that particular role should be filled by Runners)--there could also be room for crafters, professional negotiators...the list goes on.

I don't think that everyone who doesn't want to be in a combat or crafting role should have to be a floofy Aide type. I love the feel of clerks because they are soldiers but not soldiers. They spend their time in the barracks hanging with the rough-and-tumble types, but they themselves are part of the administrative branch. They're not silkies, they don't have to be fancy, but they have a supportive role. They're treated as part of the AoD, but in a different way. And ultimately, I think they make the clan appear fuller and more realistic.

Yes, some of them are going to be assassins/badclasses. That's something that you encounter with any supportive role, from prostitute to aide to clerk. I think that stems from the fact that people of certain classes have a harder time finding jobs. They're not basing their concept around Clerk; they're basing it around "rogue magicker," but there are only a few legitimate lines of work they can enter with that, particularly if they didn't choose a crafting subguild. I don't think that justifies getting rid of them, particularly now that extended subguilds will be opening up some more options for non-combat, non-mercantile main guilds.

In conclusion, I think that clerks were great and that we should bring them back, along with other supportive/administrative/flavor roles in clans.

[Klendathu]

I don't think that everyone who doesn't want to be in a combat or crafting role should have to be a floofy Aide type. I love the feel of clerks because they are soldiers but not soldiers. They spend their time in the barracks hanging with the rough-and-tumble types, but they themselves are part of the administrative branch. They're not silkies, they don't have to be fancy, but they have a supportive role. They're treated as part of the AoD, but in a different way. And ultimately, I think they make the clan appear fuller and more realistic.

Get a sword or get the fuck out.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the reason we use the somewhat vague term Aide is because they're generally expected to do everything a "clerk" would anyways. I'm having a hard time figuring out what they would be doing differently.

My past experience with clerks tended to be as "people who were hard to find when I needed clan pay." and didn't know much else of what they were around for. Now we have Quartermasters and auto-pay.

That's he problem with flavorful roles like cooks, or medics. Finding meaningful and interesting things for them to do day-to-day is not easy.

[BadSkeelz]

Well, the problem with "Aide" is that their full title is "Aide to Lord Templar Amos" or whoever. Their first job is to their employer, not the AoD as a whole or any particular unit within it.

Having someone in a more generalized role is an interesting concept. Necessary? I'm not sure. I can see it working, but I can also see a lot of turn-over as people get bored and stored.

[Beethoven]

I only had a hard time finding stuff to do in the beginning, but I eventually figured it out. You just have to be creative. It's not for everyone, but I think it's a worthwhile role to have.

The game world starts looking rather rigid and boxy when everyone who works for an organization has pretty much the same exact skill set and role, only varying as far as rank.

Templar aides have a very different feel from clerks. They're fancier, nicer, and serve one templar in particular, as BadSkeelz mentioned while I was typing this out, and don't usually focus their work on the barracks. They feel more "separate" from the soldiers and I don't know how much organizing/cooking/odd jobs they do for the soldiers themselves. I've heard the fact that the templars rarely "used" clerks as a reason for nixing the role, and it's true--I was rarely asked to do much by the templarate as my clerk, at least until a certain particularly demanding templar showed up. However, I didn't feel that constantly having errands from the templarate was needed in my role, which ended up being more about managing the soldiers' business than that of the templarate.


As for clerks getting bored and storing, I don't know anything about that. My clerk was my longest-lived character ever and the other clerks I encountered were also extremely long-lived. Granted, the sample size I encountered IG was exactly three, but I never really heard about clerks storing willy-nilly, either. I have seen a lot of recruits come and go, though.

[cnemus]

Clerks for AoD in general, or any support role that makes sense in any clan, are something I support and want. It won't be for everyone, but for those who want it (including me) I would very much like for it to be possible. I don't think they should be 'essential to every day operations and missions' but able to 'empower other members and increase efficiency'. How they do that and how effective they are comes down to the creativity of the player.

If there were a concept I had like this and it didn't appear to exist in game, I would drop a request.

[Taven]

I really liked when the Clerks were open as well. I am, of course, wildly biased. When I was a Clerk, I usually had 1-2 people working under me, for a total of 3-4 Clerks in a unit. While that's a bit high (it's hard to have such a large administrative branch), I don't believe anyone was ever bored. We all had tasks and kept busy. Sometimes it was about finding your own thing to do, but I don't think that's bad--it allows for more creativity. None of the Clerks in Bixan's era stored, to my knowledge. They did have a high death-to-templar rate, though.

Here's some things that Clerks did:

• Made money to keep the unit outfitted--Better gear, better weapons
• Better food for the unit--Kept soldiers well fed in a time when there was nothing but burnt tubers
• Sold items that the AoD didn't need--criminals you murder have stuff you'd rather have money for, go figure
• Outfitted soldiers before missions--made kits with bandages, food, waterskins, cures, rope and other vital supplies
• Kept appraised of citizens in Allanak on a more personal level--They had more time, as sparring was not a requirement
• Occasionally did non-combat events (formal or informal) with the unit, for a sense of comradery

While they were not personally utilized as much by templars as they might have been, and in fact most templars overlooked them, I agree that it's a different (if similar) role then an aide. Aides ARE more prestigious. They DO serve one templar and that templar's wishes. Clerks aren't anything super special, they look out for the whole unit, and they have the challenge of trying to serve the unit as a whole (which if you have pushy templars, can be hard).

You may look at the list and say "an aide can do that!", but again--An aide, while they may seem similar, is actually a different role. I liked having Clerks because I felt they added to the game.

I'd be curious to get a staff opinion on Clerks/Aides though, and perhaps the reasons why Clerks were originally closed.

[Reiloth]

Why is Aide a different role?

It sounds like the same thing with a different name.

[Harmless]

To me it seems different from an Aide.. less of a public role, a lot of those tasks do not require the clerk to ever even admit to being a clerk to anyone. Whereas an Aide's purpose is to directly represent a noble.

To me the clerk role sounds like a similarly good fit to tulukis who become irregulars. I think there's a place for this, but I have minimal to no experience in AoD. What I'm concerned about is that none of those tasks Taven mentioned necessarily requires them to call themselves a clerk with anyone, as they don't have that task, and therefore the title is rather meaningless.

So yeah, it's different from an Aide.

[Patuk]

I think the strongest argument in favor of not having clerks around is that every person playing a clerk is one who isn't helping out Salarr, being a shifty elf, or being a scary magicker. Our playerbase is small already.

One could argue that the people who play clerks don't want to be anything else anyway, but I find this dubious.

Also, soldier PC's have a TON of free time left. If you join up as a regular recruit, you'll be able to do all of the mentioned things just fine. Schedules are seldom very strictly enforced anyway.

[Harmless]

With the important difference that clerks are non-combative. That's the only important distinction. A totally non-combative person won't be recruited into AoD.

[Taven]

Why is Aide a different role?

It sounds like the same thing with a different name.

Aides are for a single templar. Their goals, tasks, and what they do is largely centered around that templar. They're not as much a part of the unit, but something separate. They are also more official, generally, and more prestigious. Think of Clerks as orienting around unit goals and needs, and aides orienting around the goals of a single individual.

To me it seems different from an Aide.. less of a public role, a lot of those tasks do not require the clerk to ever even admit to being a clerk to anyone. Whereas an Aide's purpose is to directly represent a noble.

To me the clerk role sounds like a similarly good fit to tulukis who become irregulars. I think there's a place for this, but I have minimal to no experience in AoD. What I'm concerned about is that none of those tasks Taven mentioned necessarily requires them to call themselves a clerk with anyone, as they don't have that task, and therefore the title is rather meaningless.

So yeah, it's different from an Aide.

Clerks actually used to have their own cloaks in the AoD, which was their uniform. They were known as Clerks, and introduced themselves as Clerks. It was a separate administrative branch of the AoD, which I believe still exists, but is not open for players to participate in. The title was not meaningless, and actually had a rank progression. Junior Clerk, Clerk, Senior Clerk, and above and beyond. However, yes, tasks were more open and lose. They didn't have a set structure like the militia soldiers. But they did contribute and perform a lot of administrative tasks.

Also, soldier PC's have a TON of free time left. If you join up as a regular recruit, you'll be able to do all of the mentioned things just fine. Schedules are seldom very strictly enforced anyway.

I haven't played AoD in awhile, but as I recall, the schedule had a lot of time where you had to be doing specific things. If the clan isn't as full, you have more free time, but generally your Sergeant will hunt you down if you try to skip out. It will definitely vary depending on who is playing in the clan at the time.

I think the strongest argument in favor of not having clerks around is that every person playing a clerk is one who isn't helping out Salarr, being a shifty elf, or being a scary magicker. Our playerbase is small already.

One could argue that the people who play clerks don't want to be anything else anyway, but I find this dubious.

I think your reasoning is terrible. I mean, heck, every person playing a southerner is someone not playing a Tuluki, right? We should obviously close Allanak!

I mean, argue that it's a role too similar to aides, argue that you don't want clerks counting toward the cap on a clan, by all means. I'll argue back, but those are points that could be made. But I absolutely don't agree with the premise that clerks should be closed so those silly would-be clerks will play something more useful.

[wizturbo]

I think having 1 or 2 administrative jobs in the AoD makes a lot of sense and would help flesh out the world, but I don't think it should be outside the normal ranks.  I think every soldier should train to fight and deploy, but some of them have side administrative duties.  Someone who excels at the administrative duties may find themselves going up in rank and focusing on those tasks instead of normal soldiering, but when push comes to shove they're still soldiers who fight when needed.

[Marauder Moe]

I think this is probably something best decided by clan staff and leadership based on the current needs and conditions of the clan. 

As those needs and conditions change, so may the decision.

[Voular]

Nothing stopping a Templar from basically hiring anyone to be an inofficial clerk. Shrug. You all underestimate the influence of a strong willed templar player.

THEY MUST ONLY DARE!

[Talia]

Currently, the AoD hires in soldiers. Individual templars may hire a single personal aide, on their own dime, which buys the aide's loyalty. There's obviously going to be a variety of opinions on this topic, but this is how things work in the AoD right now. All clans have caps, the AoD is no exception, and the core character type in the AoD is always going to be the soldier.

IMO, there's no actual need for clerk PCs, since anything a clerk could do can also be done by a soldier--and PCs with multiple types of tasks to do are busier PCs and happier PCs. If there's a soldier who wants to do clerk-y things, e.g. cleaning the barracks or selling extra crap for money, that's fine. In the old days, the "clerk" role was also the clan paymaster, but that's no longer necessary.

[Eyeball]

Too much has been automated to make it a well-defined role anymore, in my opinion.

Pay is dispensed by NPCs.
Food and water are dispensed by NPCs.
Clan-specific equipment is dispensed by NPCs.
Combat decorations are dispensed by NPCs.

Crafting skills aren't as useful in that context as you might think. Salaar still has the goodies.

Maybe it could be made like the Byn, where you can be both a medic and a mercenary at the same time.

[Talia]

Maybe it could be made like the Byn, where you can be both a medic and a mercenary at the same time.

It's already like this, insofar as if a player wants to do this, they can. The AoD in fact has had in the past soldiers who play the medic role, or soldiers who are also aides, or soldiers who concentrate on unit supply issues. All that needs to be done is for the PC to talk to superiors in game, and/or for the player to send in a request to clan staff. The role of soldier is not really as restricted as players seem to think it is.

[Eyeball]

Maybe it could be made like the Byn, where you can be both a medic and a mercenary at the same time.

It's already like this, insofar as if a player wants to do this, they can. The AoD in fact has had in the past soldiers who play the medic role, or soldiers who are also aides, or soldiers who concentrate on unit supply issues. All that needs to be done is for the PC to talk to superiors in game, and/or for the player to send in a request to clan staff. The role of soldier is not really as restricted as players seem to think it is.

The Byn at least have a shoulder patch to acknowledge their medics though. Also, if it were an appointed position (the code already supports this I believe), it could figure into the pay scale. As things stand, there's little motivation to do the extra work, other than being the person with the lowest threshold of tolerance for disorganization in the unit.

[Nyr]

got it, we'll make patches pronto.

[Saellyn]

AoD medic patch: A needle and thread over a leaf of bimbal?

[Eyeball]

Great, thanks. 

[QuillDipper]

An AoD medic patch is everything I've ever wanted.

[WWYD]

I'm pretty sure there's already a medic accolade for AoD.

[HavokBlue]

aod confirmed for girlscouts

[QuillDipper]

I'm pretty sure there's already a medic accolade for AoD.

If there is it isn't in circulation nor is it common knowledge

[QuillDipper]

While clerks in the AoD would be cool, I'm in the camp of multi talented soldiers. It's no stretch of the mind to realize a Sarge or Corporal will choose to recruit a cook/soldier over buff mcfighty. It gives the PC unit more personality and gives people things to do when the yard is empty.

[MeTekillot]

I would personally never choose a cook over buff mcfighty because that cook means jack shit when my unit of soldiers comes face to face with a unit of Legion.

[MeTekillot]

Mind, I'm taking clan employee caps into account when I say that.

[Fujikoma]

Fill the ranks with elf merchants! It gives the unit personality, and gives it a LOT to do.

[wizturbo]

I would personally never choose a cook over buff mcfighty because that cook means jack shit when my unit of soldiers comes face to face with a unit of Legion.

With the new subguilds, you can have your cake and eat it too!  Warrior/MasterChef ftw!

[Voular]

Also yes to more patches/sashes/pins/medals, even for people not directly associated. You have no idea what people would do to wear a jade green sash signifying they helped in some way in some campaign or whatever. That'd really tie into the 'nationalism' of Allanak. I mean, didn't Napoleon say he'd take over the world if he had enough sashes and ribbons for his soldiers? Or maybe someone else.. Whatever. Still true!

[CodeMaster]

I agree with Beethoven's original sentiment that a clan populated by sparring characters can appear one-dimensional.

Fortunately, it sounds like staff are saying this doesn't have to be the case; clan leaders, this might be a good opportunity to e-mail your clan admins and ask if you can assign a couple subrankings to your crew ("clerk", "cook", "medic", "liaison to X", "quartermaster in charge of Y", etc., maybe with custom trinkets/patches/tattoos/bandanas to designate these positions, and slightly modified clan schedules.

People eat these kinds of customizations up like candy, because it gives them an opportunity to explicitly roleplay out a facet of their character (rather than feeling like they're just "filling in" as the guy who has the high cook skill, or the girl who has the bandage skill).

[Saellyn]

Look all you gotta do is go to your local boss and be like "Sir/Lord/Lady Templar, I'd like to have the unit do more materials gathering. I can work with some of the materials, turn them into processed goods that I can then sell and help to fund the soldiers for better armor and such. How do you feel about this?"

[bcw81]

I agree with Beethoven's original sentiment that a clan populated by sparring characters can appear one-dimensional.

Fortunately, it sounds like staff are saying this doesn't have to be the case; clan leaders, this might be a good opportunity to e-mail your clan admins and ask if you can assign a couple subrankings to your crew ("clerk", "cook", "medic", "liaison to X", "quartermaster in charge of Y", etc., maybe with custom trinkets/patches/tattoos/bandanas to designate these positions, and slightly modified clan schedules.

People eat these kinds of customizations up like candy, because it gives them an opportunity to explicitly roleplay out a facet of their character (rather than feeling like they're just "filling in" as the guy who has the high cook skill, or the girl who has the bandage skill).

Just to add my point of view to this - and I freely admit I haven't really been following this thread - but that's always been the case.

I've played a few leaders in the past few years, and I was never called out by staff for hiring for odd jobs. The real problem with this kind of thing is that no one really comes to you saying, "Hey, I want to be your shit-cleaner in your stables." (Outside of the Byn, of course.) When people come to you, they expect to be your aide or your trusted trusttwat or generic soldier. So I implore you - if you want to try to get these flavor roles, ask for them! I'm not going to force people into roles that have the possibility of being very outside their wants and desires just because, this is a game and you're meant to have fun.

[Saellyn]

Barracks sweeper? Soldier who hires on to get some occasional training, but primarily... Hold on, let me bump a thread here.

[Fujikoma]

Look all you gotta do is go to your local boss and be like "Sir/Lord/Lady Templar, I'd like to have the unit do more materials gathering. I can work with some of the materials, turn them into processed goods that I can then sell and help to fund the soldiers for better armor and such. How do you feel about this?"

say (sneering down at ~saellyn as he unbuckles his belt) How DARE you suggest to me, Lord Templar Whoopass, what my troops should be doing! Prepare for punishment!

[bcw81]

Look all you gotta do is go to your local boss and be like "Sir/Lord/Lady Templar, I'd like to have the unit do more materials gathering. I can work with some of the materials, turn them into processed goods that I can then sell and help to fund the soldiers for better armor and such. How do you feel about this?"

From experience, I can say that this particular line doesn't work so well. Normally I'll say sure, go ahead, but you aren't getting a fancy title for something like that.

Ask to be a quartermaster, or something like that. Give yourself the title. Say, "Boss, this is what I want to be. Can I be it?" I know -I'll- normally say yes, unless you've pissed me off in the past.

*Me being my character at the time.

[Talia]

Also yes to more patches/sashes/pins/medals, even for people not directly associated. You have no idea what people would do to wear a jade green sash signifying they helped in some way in some campaign or whatever. That'd really tie into the 'nationalism' of Allanak. I mean, didn't Napoleon say he'd take over the world if he had enough sashes and ribbons for his soldiers? Or maybe someone else.. Whatever. Still true!

This is already something that we do and historically has been done when there's been a campaign. E.g., after the gith invasion, there was a thingy that got rewarded to soldiers and others who participated.

As has been suggested, if a player wants to play a flavor role in the AoD (or probably any other clan), that's possible, and they should talk to their IC superiors and/or send a clan request to staff. However, to be honest, I'm not going to spend a lot of time setting up new ranks, patches, pins, schedules etc etc in anticipation that someone, someday, might want to play a flavor role in the clan. This is definitely a case of "be the change you want to see rather than waiting for staff to do something for you."

[solera]

I've played a few leaders in the past few years, and I was never called out by staff for hiring for odd jobs. The real problem with this kind of thing is that no one really comes to you saying, "Hey, I want to be your shit-cleaner in your stables." (Outside of the Byn, of course.)

I've seen it often over the years. One of my PC's even, though after a few RL months they got Ambition.

[deskoft]

Clerk & Aides are quite fun to role-play, but it depends a lot on the lord, IMHO. Probably, role-playing a clerk isn't as fun as role-playing an aide, but I've done it and I can picture clerking being fun. There's a certain type of player that will accept to do these jobs, because, let's face it, not everyone wants to be a servant, just as not everyone wants to be a huge warmonger. In my case, I'd never role-play a warmonger. I think we should allow clerks to exist. Temporarily filling them with VNPCs or NPCs -- but, if required and role-played, a PC could be hired to perform that kind of jobs.

[Brytta Léofa]

I was really disappointed when I first realized clerks were gone (as a playable role), but I think it's for the best.  It creates good tension to have that work divided between two competing characters: the aides of the (typically) two active blue-robed templars.

[Bogre]

Not going to say I'm the authority on this role or anything....

But I played the original 'clerk' role, as Junior Adjunct Otikus (Jal). The initial role as it was set out was to perform sort of clerkly duties for the AoD - administrative assistance for Templars, selling crap, piloting the wagon, etc, paying soldiers back when you actually had to slug the coins out of the bank. (Doing that for almost 3 years, guys, is -painful-.) Given that he could read and write, and speak multiple languages, he was sort of more advanced in the role and could function as interpreter/diplomat. Then progressing through the ranks, he eventually made Magistrate, which technically meant being the administrative and financial head flunky of the Red Robe.

Obviously, not much of the financial / administrative bits were coded. But it was certainly unique in that his role, much like the clerks, were outside the direct responsibility of a sole Templar - meaning a -lot- of times I was playing diplomat between the competing blue-robes. And given his eventual seniority, it became an interesting sort of military advisory role. Beyond that, he had a high income and more social credibility than a soldier, which I could use discretionally to do all sorts of things myself. What though, would separate a lower ranked clerk from a soldier? It's hard to carve out a role like that without making them aides-in-disguise.

I definitely enjoyed that role, though - I can certainly see a place for a similar job filled by a PC, although as mentioned before I think it depends entirely on the clan staff and whatever they would need at the time.