Newbieland

[Marauder Moe]

So I'm not sure I'm in favor of this idea yet, but I'll throw it out there for brainstorming.

What if we had a live Armageddon newbie school with live teachers?

Essentially, it'd be a separate MUD, but with a greatly streamlined character creation process and a tiny play area.  Maybe it's like a small farming village, a desert trading post, or even the Allanaki arena holding pits.  Put in a few key elements: a tavern, some shops, and maybe a few areas with critters/NPCs to fight. 

Most importantly, we let players/staff/helpers hang out in there too and teach newbies how to play.  People would be encouraged to treat similar to the real game and roleplay accordingly, but it'd also be a safe place to use OOC to ask questions and to screw up emotes/commands without consequences.

Downsides:
1) Lots of staff work to make a new area, new MUD instance, and new character generation code.
2) Relies on staff/helpers/players to actually put in some time and patience there.
3) Possibly more subject to trolls and other people who really will never "get it".

[Delirium]

The most important thing to me is that if we do have a "newbie school", it should be fully optional.

I hated MUDs that force you to go through them and would actively avoid them when I came across them.

[Marauder Moe]

Absolutely optional, yes.

[whitt]

I'm still enough of a newb to remember my first impressions of ARM.  I wouldn't have looked good in the "Where Players Found Us" numbers, but I've since come back and played... a lot.  It totally would have helped to have more of newbie spawning safety net, as I got really discouraged pretty quick (and I came in as an RPI vet from another game).  I also totally did not know about the Helpers who, when I came back, provided just enough help to get me over the hump, so...  

Love the idea of somewhere for new players to "get it".  Don't like the idea of separate play area.  I think anything that decreases the number of players in "the real game" is bad.  I'd sooner make a change like was done for starting locations to insist that a player's first character be a human.  Doesn't lock them out of the major IG RP newblet options.  Doesn't come with the burden of other player's expectations of how your race should behave.  Makes initial character generation quicker.  Perhaps some quickstart guild/subguild suggestions?  Also... totally would have loved to know that subguild skills aren't capped quite the same as your guild skills and a few other mechanics.

Other than that?  Maybe some more automation (or animations) in the newbie rooms would help.

[Desertman]

I'm not opposed to anything that helps new players.

I would like to make sure that only people with special staff-given credentials can codedly access the room to help newbies.

Then again, we already have that group. The helpers.

I think what we want here is just an area where the helpers that we already have can hang out in the game and help newbies without having to use a third party means of communication/a different platform.

What if those helpers even got a notification when a newbie entered the newbie area and they could:

OOCNEWBIE: Hey, I'm here and available if you have any OOC questions.

And if the newbie does, that helper could teleport to their room and help them.

Sounds good to me.

(I wouldn't want this room to be considered in any shape, form, or fashion a roleplay room, as that would give a false impression of what Armageddon is and what is acceptable.)

[Marauder Moe]

If it's not a roleplay area then it wouldn't be a very good place for teaching people how to roleplay. 

[wizturbo]

hm...didn't even know about helper chat channels existing in-game.  Nevermind I guess?

[Marauder Moe]

We already have helper chat that does all that well enough.

I'm talking about a way to give people a live taste of Armageddon without the barrier of character application (which numbers have shown is significant).

[Desertman]

But, that room wouldn't be any sort of indicator of what Armageddon is actually like.

It may even give a negative false impression that things are a lot more relaxed in the game than they actually are.

I'm just playing the DA because someone has to point out possible tripwires for any system if it is going to be a good system.

I'm not sure if we want to let other newbies interact with other newbies in there.....that could certainly give a major false impression about the game if there are no vets/helpers online to police them on what is acceptable.

[Marauder Moe]

It wouldn't be a perfect indicator, no.  But it would be some sort of indicator.

Are you seriously saying that education/training has to be PERFECTLY real to be of value?  Also, the teachers could certainly point out how the real Armageddon differs from Newbieland.

[Harmless]

As I suggested in the other thread I think something like this would be good for two reasons:

1.) it will allow more OOC chatter in some part of the gameworld, without flooding the Gaj and other areas with brand-spanking newbies who need a lot of basic training before they can immerse,

2.) It will allow for more people to get into the game quickly, bypassing the difficult application.

I think a third bonus might be:

3.) Bring in more people who initially didn't take the idea of an RPI that seriously and would be likely to be turned off by the high standards (usually due to impatience, lack of time investment at the moment of logging in, esp if logging in from work, and or just mild interest).

However, as they play in the arena or training area, they may eventually decide, "Okay, these people seem cool enough. Maybe I'll try making a character now," but if they didn't have a place to unwind and "get into the mood" of the RPI world we have they never would have made it to that step.

I truly believe this would work. At the very least, it'd give people who have a very short investment-to-reward span of patience something to do that's productive while waiting for an approval.

[wizturbo]

It wouldn't be a perfect indicator, no.  But it would be some sort of indicator.

Are you seriously saying that education/training has to be PERFECTLY real to be of value?  Also, the teachers could certainly point out how the real Armageddon differs from Newbieland.

Here are my concerns:

1)  Newbieland would need to be staffed with teachers.   It sounds like something we'd all want to pitch in and help with now...  But after three or four months of spending hours a week in Newbieland, some people will get seriously burned out.  By letting numbers run loose amongst the general population, you spread that teaching work out amongst the entire player base.

2)  The development work for something of this scale sounds really big for a volunteer team.  Creating new player experiences in video games is A LOT of work, even for a text based game.

3)  Some of what Desertman already said, that it wouldn't be a true sample of what the game is really like.


My suggestions for this thread is perhaps zooming out our lenses a bit, and viewing this issue as more about building an "on boarding process" for a team or organization.  Ideas that leverage as much of the existing infrastructure that's already built as possible.  

I'm kind of toying with a somewhat crazy idea of something like,  "point Mercenary Company" and be dropped in as a runner in the T'zai Byn, complete with your stereotypical bynner description and background.   Perhaps that would break the T'zai Byn...but I've always kind of viewed it as a training ground for newbies anyway.  It's a clan that's very well suited to the role at least.   It seems that something like that would be much less work, and perhaps even more beneficial than creating a brand new area of the world.  

Perhaps only one of the Byn branches would be for newbies, and the other is your typical recruitment IC only?  

Crazy ideas I know...but this is a brainstorming thread right?  

[Marauder Moe]

Newbieland isn't trying to solve the problem of players that get to the Hall of Kings and don't know where to point, or don't know what to do once they get there.  That may be an issue, but should be addressed separately.


Newbieland is for the people who don't even get to the Hall of Kings at all.  The ones who think that the game seems cool, but waiting a whole 24 hours to play is bullshit.  The ones who need just a little instant gratification to get hooked.

[Desertman]

Of course not. I'm just pointing out that it wouldn't be a perfect indicator of what the game is actually like, so that someone (you) could make the good recommendation that teachers would be expected to point out the differences.  

Here is an interesting one for you.

What if there were coded NPC's in those rooms that were designed as teachers to help new players learn to play the game and use syntax. Example below: (This way there wouldn't HAVE to be pc's in these rooms to help newbies learn the game.)

This is the newbie room. It is for newbies. There are some NPC's here that will help you learn the basic fundamentals of the game.

The black-eyed NPC is here.

The black-eyed NPC says to you in sirihish, "Hey there fella'. Good ta' see ya' around these parts. What's yer' name?"

You can tell The black-eyed NPC your name by using the "Tell" command and then giving your name. For example - tell black "My name is Amos.".

tell black My name is Amos.

You say to the black-eyed NPC in sirihish, "My name is Amos."

The black-eyed NPC says to you in sirihish, "Good ta' meet'cha' Amos. I'm the bartender around these parts. My name's Malik. Can I get ya' a drink?".

You can buy a drink from the black-eyed NPC by using the command "list" to see what he has for sale, and then using the "buy" command to purchase a drink. For example - type list to see his inventory, then type "buy #02" to buy a mug of ale. Please note that you already have some coins in your inventory. You can see your inventory by typing "inv".

inv

You are carrying the following:
83 obsidian coins


list

The black-eyed NPC has the following goods for trade:
1. A rat kabob for 19 obsidian coins.
2. A mug of ale for 8 obsidian coins.

buy #02

You give the black-eyed NPC 8 obsidian coins in exchange for a mug of ale.

The black-eyed NPC says to you in sirihish, "Thank ya' for yer' business. Where are ya' from Amos?".



You get the picture. So on and so forth. The NPC could be scripted to tell the new players all about the starting cities etc...they could even be scripted to let them spar a bit or something with a tavern ruffian. All of the while it would be teaching them all of the coded commands needed to run a basic character and giving them examples of roleplay.

There could even be a script for two NPC's to interact with each other and not the player in a way that two veteran PC's normally would so the new player could see two other people interacting in a realistic fashion.

[Marauder Moe]

...

You're worried about Newbieland not giving a real enough experience, but you suggest instead we replace human teachers with ROBOTS???

[Desertman]

Are you seriously saying that education/training has to be PERFECTLY real to be of value?  Also, the ROBOTS could certainly point out how the real Armageddon differs from Newbieland.

Newbieland could be two or three different rooms. One with PC helpers who are online. One with NPC's to teach the newbies stuff as indicated above, which would be useful when no people are online. One where newbies could just....whatever. *shrug*

[wizturbo]

I kind of think this is all predicated on the assumption that having a newbies write their own descriptions and backgrounds is truly weeding out bad players.  We're looking to corral these guys behind Newbieland walls so they're not disruptive to the game.  Dicktowel's aside, I'm honestly not at all convinced this is going to be a real problem.

Hell, maybe all we do is offer pre-created character descriptions only, and we use the background as a screening process.  That eliminates one of the two pain points for newbies, and we might see great results from something as simple as that.

[Marauder Moe]

I guess a few robots couldn't hurt, but I think the human interaction is key.  It's less about teaching commands and syntax and more about teaching style and theme.  Syntax you can learn in the real game, and do little harm if you mess up at it.  If you don't understand at least a little style and theme of Armageddon, though, you probably won't even get an application approved.

I kind of think this is all predicated on the assumption that having a newbies write their own descriptions and backgrounds is truly weeding out bad players.  We're looking to corral these guys behind Newbieland walls so they're not disruptive to the game.

Indeed.

Dicktowel's aside, I'm honestly not at all convinced this is going to be a real problem.

I think letting Dicktowel run around Zalanthas would have been a real problem.

Hell, maybe all we do is offer pre-created character descriptions only, and we use the background as a screening process.  That eliminates one of the two pain points for newbies, and we might see great results from something as simple as that.

Possibly worth exploring, though personally I doubt that many potential players truly get stuck on description while already having created a background.  We do ask a lot of reading, thought, and time of new players (compared to other MUDS) before they can even enter the game and get any sort of reward for it.  Throwing out a little up front, as pale of a shadow of the real thing as it may be, could potentially nab a lot of people we'd have lost otherwise.

[Desertman]

I guess a few robots couldn't hurt, but I think the human interaction is key.  It's less about teaching commands and syntax and more about teaching style and theme.  Syntax you can learn in the real game, and do little harm if you mess up at it.  If you don't understand at least a little style and theme of Armageddon, though, you probably won't even get an application approved.

I don't disagree with any of this.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think letting dicktowel in would be a massive problem.

Doesn't anyone remember the time the walking penis got accepted into play? He probably ruined some  peoples immersions, and made a few other people laugh, but then he was handled and gone and never a problem again. People got over it really fast. It didn't ruin the game. Even if that guy kept coming back trying to make dick-people, he'd just get banned, be gone, and not an issue any more.

I say open the floodgates, see how bad it really is, and then decide from there if it's too much to keep a finger on and we need to close the floodgates.

I'm betting it wouldn't be.

[creeper386]

I think it'd be interesting to have some pre'built' character forms that could be used for new players. Or just lower the choices might help. Starting race, human. Have a few classes, my biggest recommendation is warrior and merchant. Let them choose subclass. I do think the screening process in terms of description/background is definitely a thing that we still need in some way as having players enter the game without a fairly decent understanding would be a concern, but cutting down on new player choices might help a lot to move things along.

But as RGs down there stated, maybe a flood for prebuilt characters. Maybe have a list of sdesc that could be chosen that correspond with a desc and background or vice versa, and letting someone join the game like that may not turn out bad.

I'm wondering if it wouldn't help if there was an option for a subsection of staff that are trained and allowed to approve character apps. Possibly even just new player apps. Something that could help speed the process along.

[Rokal]

As I suggested in the other thread I think something like this would be good for two reasons:

1.) it will allow more OOC chatter in some part of the gameworld, without flooding the Gaj and other areas with brand-spanking newbies who need a lot of basic training before they can immerse,

2.) It will allow for more people to get into the game quickly, bypassing the difficult application.

I think a third bonus might be:

3.) Bring in more people who initially didn't take the idea of an RPI that seriously and would be likely to be turned off by the high standards (usually due to impatience, lack of time investment at the moment of logging in, esp if logging in from work, and or just mild interest).

However, as they play in the arena or training area, they may eventually decide, "Okay, these people seem cool enough. Maybe I'll try making a character now," but if they didn't have a place to unwind and "get into the mood" of the RPI world we have they never would have made it to that step.

I truly believe this would work. At the very least, it'd give people who have a very short investment-to-reward span of patience something to do that's productive while waiting for an approval.

I highly agree with this ,espically #1, im still a newbie and sometimes i want to ask an question thats rather immediate, and going off to contact a helper keeps the rp held up, or something, and I acutally get -worried- aobut asking in Ooc because like, really, I understand ooc can be an imersion break.

That being said, the people who have helped me, have given plenty of help - the first few days were bumpy for sure.

[nauta]

Even if that guy kept coming back trying to make dick-people, he'd just get banned, be gone, and not an issue any more.

Not dick-people but dick-objects: Dickwetnap, Dickdiaper, Dicksmokingjacket.

Also, I'm in the optimist camp but I can see things going the wrong way quality-wise.  It is just hard for me to believe that more than a handful of people interested in a text-based game that advertises as RPI would really be so immature...

Give the streamlined chargen alternative a few presets, very few options (human, Nak, default gear), a big bold text of warnings about not being a dick, reading the docs, RP being enforced, and maybe a tip, like, ask about joining the Byn... then let them loose in the Gaj-- wait, no let them loose in Red's, muhaha.

[Norcal]

The idea is a good one Moe.  It could be done in the existing game world IF:

1.We could use a part of the game world that is currently closed off, like Undertuluk or something (if it still exists) 

2.It were staffed by PCS (as has also been mentioned above).  There could be NPCs which respond to questions, but it really would need to be filled with PCs.

These could be volunteers from our ranks. I would not mind spending a few hours a week helping out and I reckon that some others would feel the same. Fill the place with some shik, a sparring ring, a few dangers, a tavern and a shop or two.  Someone could app a character and in the time they are waiting for approval play in the newbie area. When they are ready to move on BadSkeelz could come in and PK them. Welcome to Arm.

However it should be OPTIONAL as has already been said.  Nothing turns me off from a mud quicker than a mandatory newbie area. They always seem to be designed as if 8 year olds are the target age group.  Also would there need to be any code changes for instant approval? 

[Cale_Knight]

What if there was some way to tie it into the real game?

I do not know if this is possible, because I am not a coder. But imagine this: you're sitting in the Gaj, and you get a message.

[[[the tall, black-haired man has entered Newbieville for the first time]]]

You get this message because you've had your account flagged as a helper or whatever. The same message would also go to any helpers logged into the chat room.

You make your excuses and go log off, if it's appropriate. You exit to the main menu, and log on your second PC. You have two PCs on your account because one of them lives in Newbieville. It's also possible that these helper players could be given permission to multiplay their helper PCs, with the understanding that they wouldn't just idle their regular PCs in crowded areas or whatever.

Newbieville is a self-contained area on the MUD's regular port, but completely unlinked from the rest of the game in the same manner as staff-only rooms. The area is as Moe described it above.

Doing it this way would help to prevent burnout because you wouldn't have to idle in the gameworld waiting for a newbie to log in, and would give newbies the highest possible chance of actually interacting with a real live helper. And, of course, it would be perfect territory for staff to animate and help out as well.

I would volunteer for this duty in a New York minute, and I imagine many other established players would as well because it wouldn't actually commit you to spending time there. If we had thirty players with 'helper' accounts and each of them only helped one newbie every two weeks, it would still be a huge success. And if the whole deal only helped us retain two extra players a month, it would ALSO still be a huge success.

[Delirium]

I like Cale_Knight's idea - but definitely a separate character for the Newbieland area. That way you are not tied to your current PC, which may be either super-secretive or very notorious, and alternatively, if you're currently not playing the game at all you can still log in as a helper.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

All of these various ideas have merit. Not a single one beats a newbie/helper chat channel.

[Kol]

How about a separate OOC newbie channel, gamewide, that's only viewable by Helpers and newbies? Set a flag timer for say, 1 karma, a year or a couple of months, whatever seems appropriate, before you lose access to it. Obviously, this flag would have to be toggled back on for helpers, with the understanding that it's only for the use of helping newbies out, and newbies would be told that chatting on the channel is highly frowned upon, and if done without asking a question, they could lose access to it.

That way they can learn while experiencing the full game, helpers wouldn't have to jump in and out of several characters, there's no need to create an entirely new area, and helpers can respond no matter where they are n the gameworld.

The only downside for this is off-peak, it'd be pretty empty, I think most helpers play peak, and obviously, it would be another channel o communication staff would have to monitor, but I think it could be implemented and run with little effort, and isn't open too much abuse.

[Quell]

I think this would be a fun thing to do while waiting for a character to be approved. Then you wouldn't even need full time teachers. Just a bunch of addicts (us) who need their fix while they wait for their real character.

You could make it a little rough and tumble farming village that exists theoretically in the game (it's in one of the room descriptions near Alanak), but has no actual exits connecting it to the game (possibly because the gates are always closed). Litter in some crafting items, some forageables, some town bullies to fight with, a haberdashery and whatever else to make a little microcosm of the game. People get characters just like in the real game, but their skills don't improve and their descriptions and backgrounds are chosen from a list of fairly generic Zalanthan backgrounds and descriptions. Then they can putz around until their real characters (different ones entirely) are approved.

I think it could be a lot of fun.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Farming village isn't a terrible idea.

[CodeMaster]

Random idea (not really newbieland, but this seems to be the best place for it):

I've recently began experimenting with adding time pulses to my play logs, so I can play them back more or less in "real time".  Still working out the kinks.

But it would be cool if there were logs on the website that you could 'push play' on, and some backend javascript or something would display the user's input, as well as the textscroll from the game, approximately as they happened in real-time.  Maybe with some nice syntax highlighting and/or color commentary informing the player what's going on, exposing the user to a cool sequence of events that s/he might expect to see in Arm.

I guess you could do the same with a youtube video, but there's something I find a little lacking in youtube videos of gameplay that I can't quite put my finger on (beyond how hard it often is to read the text).

Maybe I can write something like this, retrofit some old logs from the website onto it, and see how it looks.

[shadeoux]

While I admitedly did not read this entire thread, here is my proposed idea.

Have a newbie area in each of the three main starting areas. (The Arena's for this example).

Steps
1) Anyone wanting to assist in helping newbies in the areas out should have a "Helper" flag that is a totally OOC feature.
2) If a newbie chooses to go through this "Mudschool, newbie area" A ping is sent out to those helpers in that specific region.
3) In Nak, utilize the Arena area, put in a "Bar or shop" and if the helpers decide to want to help they would have total access under the arena area.  In the arena, you can learn to manipulate objects there with reasonable ease, chat, fight and ask ooc questions without having to build a new area or disrupt the natural flow of the game. And when they feel comfortable enough they go to an NPC of Tek and pray for forgiveness then they get released from the arena or tossed into Rinth, or the other starting points.