Ideas for Jails and Crimcode

[Reiloth]

Hmm. I thought I posted about this somewhere, but can't find it. I'm going crazy!

I like the idea of your name being added to a ledger, if you are processed in the jails. No more 'I got arrested off-peak, so no one knows I got arrested! Woo hoo!' Templars/AoD/Legions should know you've been naughty, as you've been processed, so the jailer takes down your description. This provides an interesting cat-and-mouse for soldiers as well -- They're given vague descriptors of past criminals, but not their name, address, whereabouts, etc. This allows soldiers to round up 'the usual suspects' if a crime went down.

"The short, husky man was arrested on the 16th day of King's Tippy Top, for petty theft."

Descriptions could also be added to the ledger if someone resists arrest and escapes.

"The short, husky man was reported to assault <other description, NPC or PC>, attempted arrest but they fled, on the 16th day of King's Tippy Top."

It would be neat also if Templars could expunge a description from the ledgers at will -- for favors earned, or bribes.

I like the idea of soldiers (Perhaps Corporal or Sergeant and up) being able to incriminate, and pardon certain crimes, allowing for more corruption. Bribe the Corporal and he will make sure your wanted status is decreased for that botched theft. But you owe him/her big time.

Also -- The Wanted System could be tweaked a bit. It seems that you are wanted for an inordinate amount of time, throughout the entire city. It'd be nice if the city were divided into 'zones'. In Tuluk this would mean Freil's Rest, the Warrens, the Noble Quarter, the Tribal Market/Poet's Circle. In Allanak this would be the Commoner's Quarter, the Marketplace, and the Eastern Quarters (Noble and the Merchant's Gate area/GMH area). If you commit a crime and are seen, your description has a chance of being tossed around from zone to zone, depending on the severity of the crime. A petty theft would likely only garner attention in the zone it was committed, while murder would probably put out an APB on your ass. Contrariwise, in Allanak, murder or assault may be treated with less severity, while the punishments are more along the lines of what desert man wrote -- brands, scars, and otherwise public mutilation.

This makes it a more dynamic system for leadership PCs and soldier PCs, while keeping in place the automation of dragging PC's to jail to sit out their time-out.

[QuillDipper]

I feel like adding something akin to the rumor board to the cells would be helpful, that automatically lists sdesc and crime of arrested people. Probably harder to code than I'm aware, but could be nice.

[Cale_Knight]

I tried really hard to get incriminate/pardon powers when I played my AoD Lieutenant and was roundly turned down. I still think I should have had it, and I think other officers should be able to earn it as well (it shouldn't just be packaged up with the rank).

I really like the idea of AoD officers being able to somehow get an idea of who has recently been thrown into the jail. It could be as simple as going to a jailer NPC and having him tell you the last two or three PCs who were thrown in. I'd go a step further and say that it should only be available to the officers and not the templars themselves.

The templars probably wouldn't be busying themselves with knowing a who's who of every 'rinth-rat who got arrested - they should rely on their officers to distill all that useless information into the occasional useful tidbit, and that knowledge wall would make it more realistic for officers who want to facilitate bribery and favoritism.

I don't really remember the specifics of getting bribes when I was Lieutenant. I remember that I had way more money than I knew what to do with, and would often forget to draw any sort of pay for IG years at a time.

[Reiloth]

I feel like adding something akin to the rumor board to the cells would be helpful, that automatically lists sdesc and crime of arrested people. Probably harder to code than I'm aware, but could be nice.

It might be cool if there were one outside of the cells (for Templars, with descriptions of criminals). In this way, the board is cleared every so often, and descriptions are expunged -- The Jailer can't remember everyone, after all, especially given time.

[Twilight]

I think if you want to have meaningful change, you need to change the dynamic of arrest person, throw them in jail in case/until PC templar deals with them, releasing them after amount of time if they don't for playability sake.

Let's start with the premise that templars, PC or otherwise, are the end all and be all of Zalanthas justice, and that for some reason, they built the jail too damn far away from the criminals.  Soldiers should be able to influence, but not determine, the punishment.

As NPC Allanaki soldier Amos, when I catch a criminal, I don't want to walk all the way to the jail.  First, I alert any PC templars, to see if they want to deal with the situation (They could way back yes, no, or jail).  If there are not, or they Way me no, I go to plan B.  I drag the criminal to the nearest NPC templar (flagged for administering justice) and they do so on the spot.  If I was in Tuluk, what is the most quiet way to deal with it?  Drag it halfway across the city, or have a NPC templar come to me and administer justice?

In the background I imagine a big matrix of crime types and potential punishements.  So punishment for "theft" might have the first ten entries in the matrix, from punishment 1 to punishment 10, ranked according to severity.  I would typically have the lowest severity punishments be the fines, medium jail time, the most severe branding/mutilation/death, etc.  So I, NPC Amos, drags you to an NPC templar, who does a check on the specific punishments it has been set with.  If he levies a fine of 200, we take that much in sid from you.  If you don't have enough in sid, we take equipment.  If you don't have enough...the severity level bumps up, so you get to go to jail.

Each templar has a personality, so rather than being set with one generic punishment table, each would be actually set with the specific punishments they dole out from the table.  So you can have more or less severe templars, ones that punish harshly for theft but are fairly indifferent to murder.  With the addition of another set of data, you could make it so that if you are clanned, a specific templar could treat you better (or worse than normal).  For example, one that would never do more than a "low" punishment to anyone associated with Fale, but would allow "moderate" punishments of Tor.

How about soldiers?  Well, as a PC soldier, you could choose to take the person to jail...or to a specific NPC templar.  If an NPC arrests someone, and there is no PC templar on, there should be a mechanism for you to "suggest" to the NPC soldier which NPC templar the criminal is taken to.  Given different personility and punishments the NPC templars dole out, you would be influencing the punishment.

It might be easier to  have one NPC "judge" templar, I just think it would be less fun, and not really reflect the way justice should be done, given templar's place in society.

I don't know, raw idea, but change the dynamic from letting people rot in jail to immediately going in front of authority and getting something meted out.

[Molten Heart]

Instead of jail, temporary or permanent exile could be an interesting punishment, especially in settlements that don't use jails as a part of their crime code.

[Saellyn]

Instead of jail, temporary or permanent exile could be an interesting punishment, especially in settlements that don't use jails as a part of their crime code.

Yeah but that's a whole nother punishment of the player that actually is extremely dangerous and kind of mean. Exile is an extreme thing.

[BadSkeelz]

We should roll this in to the "I wish there were more arena events" suggestion from last week and just have captured criminals automatically dumped in to the Arenas. Ring the bell and wait five minutes (for spectators). After the delay, spawn a number of foes based on the crimes committed. Survive, you get released. Die, welcome to Armageddon!

[CodeMaster]

We should roll this in to the "I wish there were more arena events" suggestion from last week and just have captured criminals automatically dumped in to the Arenas. Ring the bell and wait five minutes (for spectators). After the delay, spawn a number of foes based on the crimes committed. Survive, you get released. Die, welcome to Armageddon!

What if jail had a 1/10 chance of being the same amount of time (or even half that) in the arena?   Pray nobody buffer than you gets arrested.

[BadSkeelz]

If I were a templar it'd be a 10/10 chance, personally.

The only downside I see to my system is the possibility of twinks using it to get free foes to fight. You'd have to build in some sort of tracking, so after say the third time of getting arrested for pickpocketing orphans, you get three Braxat instead of three human cut throats.

[RogueGunslinger]

We should roll this in to the "I wish there were more arena events" suggestion from last week and just have captured criminals automatically dumped in to the Arenas. Ring the bell and wait five minutes (for spectators). After the delay, spawn a number of foes based on the crimes committed. Survive, you get released. Die, welcome to Armageddon!

I'd be okay with that if they add in NPC's at fresh pickpocket/burglar level of combat skills. Otherwise it basically is just a death sentence. 

[Saellyn]

If I were a templar it'd be a 10/10 chance, personally.

The only downside I see to my system is the possibility of twinks using it to get free foes to fight. You'd have to build in some sort of tracking, so after say the third time of getting arrested for pickpocketing orphans, you get three Braxat instead of three human cut throats.

Code Select Expand

The lissome, blue-robed Templar says, in sirihish,
    "I'm thinking of a number between one and five."

The scrawny, sharp-eared elf says, in sirihish,
    "... One, Lord Templar?"

With a sly grin, the lissome, blue-robed Templar says, in sirihish,
    "Very well! One gaj it shall be!"

[Molten Heart]

Instead of jail, temporary or permanent exile could be an interesting punishment, especially in settlements that don't use jails as a part of their crime code.

Yeah but that's a whole nother punishment of the player that actually is extremely dangerous and kind of mean. Exile is an extreme thing.

This is Zalanthas.

But seriously, it's not as dangerous or as mean as death.

[Patuk]

I'm a little surprised nobody has mentioned  NPC zealousness yet.

I realise that elf pickpocket is the spawn of satan and should be eradicated ASAP, but the crimcode as it is now is ridulously binary. Either you're a total bro and the soldiers are completely chill with everything you do, or you are public enemy number 1 and the entire city's resources will be devoted to your death.

Since we're all nerds here, I propose we move on from Oblivion to Skyrim. Rather than being hunted down relentlessly or left alone entirely, I propose there is a third stage of crimcode: guilty but not worth a chase sequence. If you beheaded a man in the streets or tried to grab a merchant's coinpurse in the Red's.. Yeah, I can see why a soldier or two would want a word with you. But shit like petty theft or crimes committed in seedier areas would end up with a 'not right now' kind of response. I'm not saying that PC's should be ignored if such things happened, but I do think there should be some avenue for lenience. Rather than the endless chasing down you get now, there'd only be a response from soldiers in the same room, and even then after a ten-second interval.

"Wait.. I know you."

Punishments are a whole other issue, but I don't think those are as bad as the fact that right now the crime response rate is the same for every crime committed.

[BadSkeelz]

Gradiations in guard response would be great.

I'll also suggest that city guards be armed with batons and quarterstaves, and have Mercy On, so that criminals have a greater chance of surviving encounters with them.

I also think PC Soldier crimcoding is worth reviewing. What if soldiers were immune to crimcode (Could attack with impunity), but wouldn't mark their targets for destruction from the rest of the military? This can link back to the earlier suggestion of PC officers being able to incrimidate/pardon, since some mechanism would have to remain to flag REAL dangers, like the subguild_movement_Sorcerer strutting down the street.

[Patuk]

Oh, and exile for Luir's/RSV would be great, if only because any old douche can go ruin the day of people who don't have nosave combat turned on.

[wizturbo]

All of these more elaborate ideas are cool for sure, but they'll require a lot of work to build out.  I think some minor adjustments could go a long way until more detailed changes could be made.  For instance:

When you commit a crime you get crim-flagged and dragged off to jail like usual, but while in your cell there's an NPC guardsman that you can pay/bribe to let you out immediately depending on the severity of your crime.  

Nice extra features would be having the haggle skill affect the price to get out, with other possible modifiers being your citizenship, race and past criminal record.  It would be super cool if Templars have the power to wipe out someone's past criminal record...especially if the price goes way up with each repeated offense.  

[Harmless]

If there was a "grand accuser" NPC with a judge-like role who npc guards brought criminals to and who would briefly, and with some personality of course, dole out a sentence and then leave an automatically generated in game board post with the sdesc and crime(s) committed (or duration of crim flagging) then templars and soldiers could close the loop on a lot of stuff. torture or forced labor would be great new activities for crims and may even allow for more interaction and longer sentences. I recommend sending them to a slave/work mine/camp.

[Harmless]

I feel like adding something akin to the rumor board to the cells would be helpful, that automatically lists sdesc and crime of arrested people. Probably harder to code than I'm aware, but could be nice.

It might be cool if there were one outside of the cells (for Templars, with descriptions of criminals). In this way, the board is cleared every so often, and descriptions are expunged -- The Jailer can't remember everyone, after all, especially given time.

sweet, someone else posted the exact idea above.. what I get for posting wihout reading all prior posts but yeah, this seems like a very doable solution potentially.

[Bushranger]

I like the idea of jail being the "go to" punishment and any creative punishments being handed down by PC Templars who are notified you have gotten thrown in the slammer. I think that is our current system?

I don't mind your punishment being a good solid beat-down by the militia, so long as the militia doing it are PC's. Also, kind of our current system.

You're correct.  Our current system is to provide one punishment from NPCs and the virtual world, unanimated and unassisted by PCs, and another punishment from PCs and the virtual world, animated and assisted by PCs or staff.  That seems like it could be improved upon.

I like the idea of social shaming/marking as a punishment. That seems VERY Zalanthan.

What if when you get thrown into the Allanaki jails, the reason for your arrest is taken into consideration and you are marked/branded with such?

Theft? - Right Shoulder - A crudely healed broken-coin brand scar. - The flesh here has been crudely burned and allowed to heal in an uneven scar faintly resembling the shape of an obsidian coin broken in half. It is about the size of the average human thumb.

Assault? - Right Shoulder - A crudely healed closed-fist brand scar. - The flesh here has been crudely burned and allowed to heal in uneven scar faintly resembling the shape of a closed fist. It is about the size of the average human thumb.

Murder? - Right Shoulder - A crudely healed broken-dagger brand scar. - The flesh here has been crudely burned and allowed to heal in an uneven scar faintly resembling the shape of a small dagger, its blade broken in half. It is about the size of the average human thumb.

You get where I am going with this. These are just examples. Also, multiple arrests might result in multiple brands?

Right Shoulder - A pair of crudely healed broken-coin brand scars.
Right Shoulder- A few crudely healed broken-coin brand scars.
Right Shoulder - A crudely healed broken-coin brand scar and a crudely healed closed-fist brand scar.


Right Shoulder - A series of crudely healed brand scars. This one would work in a format similar to our tattoo artists in town now I would imagine and would be updated with every new arrest. Something like this:

A series of crudely healed brand scars mark the flesh of the victim here. Each consists of puffy unevenly healed flesh about the size of the average human thumb and depicts the following; Several crudely healed broken-coin brand scars. A pair of crudely healed broken-dagger brand scars. Many crudely healed closed-fist brand scars.

This would all take some coding of course. But, I think it is a neat idea. It seems very Zalanthan to me. I can even see Rinthers/criminal types considering the brands a right of passage/indicative of true "street cred" among the gangs.

Instead of there being an OOC list of criminals that the militia/templarate could check. Now there is an IC list they can check....right on the criminals.

I like this idea. In Allanak, unless it involves murderizing important people, I think most crime should be seen as a nuisance more than anything. If you want special treatment (i.e. you want the fact your fancy thingamajig was stolen from your pack investigated) you'll have to pay your bribes to the officers/Templars just like everybody else. Of course some of the NPCs pay their bribes as well so crimes against NPCs shouldn't go unpunished but instead of time in jail caught criminals get dragged to the cells, coins/weapons 'confiscated' and receive a beating and branding before being dumped back out into the city again! Too many beatings without enough time to heal in between could permanently lower a random attribute but there is no pointless time idling in a cell any more. An alert to online Templars that 'so and so' was brought in to receive a beating is sent out by the jailer so if the Templar wants to interact with the criminal they can delay the release. I don't think there is any need for a recording of NPC justice to be made other than the scar(s).

As for slavery/obsidian mines this would likely end up simply storing the criminal (re: current policy on slaves). While having the obsidian mines as a prison would be cool it would also be another iso role and no one wants to further segregate the online population!

P.S. Instead of a brand the scar should be inflicted by The Hammerer: a Dwarf of course!

[Norcal]

For minor crimes my first idea would be to move the jails closer to the criminals.  To avoid the isolation of the PC and to increase shame, set up a series of stocks in central locations.  PCs caught breaking the law for stealing or other similar crimes would be thrown into the stocks instead of the jail.  All the other PCs passing by could see and interact with them. You could even have NPCs tossing crap at them. Templars, Militia or Legion could beat on them while they are in the stocks

More serious crimes could end up with a stint in jail and then a branding as described above. Or there could be an NPC Templar that automatically deals out a punishment as soon as someone is tossed into the stocks. Whipping or whipping and branding.  The crim flag could have a value associated with it, depending on the type of crime committed, and then modifiers based on the victims social class, as well as the criminals social class and number of previous offenses. The greater the end number the greater the punishment. The whipping could permanently affect stats.

Of course, there are already sanctioned forms of murder. A sloppy Tuluki artist who gets caught in a contracted murder should be punished, yet should not receive the same punishment as unsanctioned murderer.  The punishment for unsanctioned murder should be dealt out based on the class of the person killed, and vary from branding as described above and/or a fine to public execution on a gallows or in a gibbet. The PC gets thrown into one of these either by another PC or an NPC, and the is an automatic hp reduction over the course of 30 rl minuets or so, until the PC dies.

Of course, there are consent issues around all of these ideas, so they may not be good ones.

[Incognito]

Some suggestions on crime code and jails.

Once you commit a crime, and are jailed for it, and released thereafter, lets say you continue to have a flag on your PC - like the Plague - which lasts for a few days RL.

Lets call this flag - Watched or Probation - for now.

Suggestion 1:
While your Watched flag is still on - you cannot enter through the Main Gate. You are forced to enter through Merchant's Gate and pay water tax.
Same goes for Tuluk - cannot enter through Plains Gate and must enter through the Scaien and pay water tax.

Suggestion 2:
ICLY your name has been circulated to the authorities who have in turn "dropped" your name to others.
So, you end up paying 10% more for items you buy and you are offered 10% less for items you are selling, in shops in that City - until the flag wears off.

Suggestion 3:
Like Spice addiction, the Watched flag will last longer every successive time you are jailed.
So, the first time you're incarcerated, your flag lasts for lets say 6 hours RL.
The next time you're jailed, it lasts for 10 hours RL.
So on and so forth.

Suggestion 4:
While you have a Watched flag on - NPC guards will not permit you into building complexes (too harsh? - something to consider), nor permit you to rent an apartment.

Suggestion 5:
Office of Mines and Jal Salt House will not buy any goods from you till the flag wears off.
(I'm not sure if Tuluk has comparable shopkeepers, but I'm sure something could be worked out.)

Suggestion 6:
Nenyuk will cut off access to your bank account while you have a Watched flag.
The fat clerk tells you in Sirihish, 'We've been advised to block your funds until things are cleared up, come back later."

Just some thoughts off the top of my head - to make it so a player actually has some IC repercussions to deal with in-game, as a result of their criminal activities, instead of just spending the 20 odd minutes in jail while being AFK, and then swinging right back into the game as if nothing's happened.

[nauta]

Just want to chime in (all these suggestions are great) that whatever happens with it, it'd be super nice tif there be some randomness / arbitrariness involved, because

1. this seems reasonable granted corruption
2. it'll prevent people from gaming the system too easily
3. and part of the fun of being a newbie sneak is the UNKNOWN of what might happen when you get caught

I also want to say that jailtime has resulted in being visited by templars in the past (and so RP opportunities) which I really enjoyed... the fact that a PC templar (or maybe they were staff animated?) might pop in does turn the jailtime into less of a Scot free situation and makes it more scary. 

[Molten Heart]

Suggestion 1:
While your Watched flag is still on - you cannot enter through the Main Gate. You are forced to enter through Merchant's Gate and pay water tax.
Same goes for Tuluk - cannot enter through Plains Gate and must enter through the Scaien and pay water tax.

Maybe restrict travel when leaving the gates because if things start getting rough it'd make sense that one would want to leave the city until the heat was off (go to Red Storm or Luir's or somewhere else). Maybe the powers that be would want to keep an eye on criminals or at least until a templar can make a judgement call on their situation.  This might drive criminals to the Labyrinth.

[Gimfalisette]

I wonder if we started from the question of "What would a totally PC-run law enforcement system look like?" and then worked backward to what could be coded and how PCs would be involved, what that would look like.