Change implemented for sorcerers

[Marauder Moe]

I kind of wonder what pc templars are going to devote their attention to now.

Probably some pickpocket who DARED steal some coins the other day. Meh.

I tend to agree with this sentiment.  There is something to be said for having a big bad to fight against.

They'll have sorcerers to fight... ones that they can fight without staff assistance.  These characters won't be push-overs.

[Is Friday]

If I played one of these sorc subs I would find a way to wreck. Don't worry, guys.

[Cale_Knight]

Templars are WAY MORE LIKELY to have sorcs to deal with now than before, because these guys are going to be 100% capable of masquerading as normal, upstanding citizens of either city-state.

On the other hand, I guess we're going to have to put up with subguild sniffing now. "So, sure, you can fight. But what ELSE can you do? You're a tailor, right? Can you make knives? None of that, huh? What kind of fella doesn't know how to make knives?" But that's not a new problem.

[Delirium]

Solution: let subguild sorcs pick a normal (not extended) subguild as well. After all, they're 8 karma roles.

This would make them indistinguishable unless they're careless.

[RogueGunslinger]

On the other hand, I guess we're going to have to put up with subguild sniffing now. "So, sure, you can fight. But what ELSE can you do? You're a tailor, right? Can you make knives? None of that, huh? What kind of fella doesn't know how to make knives?" But that's not a new problem.

Have you seriously ever seen something like this?

"What the fuck are you talking about?" Would probably be the best response I could muster in that situation. Worst would be telling them to suck my dick via OOC, which was my initial thought.

I seriously doubt this would happen.

[Cale_Knight]

I mean guild sniffing is not a new problem, in a broad sense. Not subguild sniffing. Obviously that's not really a thing right now.

[Cale_Knight]

Solution: let subguild sorcs pick a normal (not extended) subguild as well. After all, they're 8 karma roles.

I'd be on board with this.

[Case]

I kind of wonder what pc templars are going to devote their attention to now.

Probably some pickpocket who DARED steal some coins the other day. Meh.

Eh, sorcerers still exist. And it's not like PC templars have ever been devoted to chasing them. It's a facet, but the majority of being a templar is fostering the more supernatural or violent themes internally and supporting players.

Way to insult people playing templars, though? Dick. It's a slog of a role as it is.

[Barzalene]

Solution: let subguild sorcs pick a normal (not extended) subguild as well. After all, they're 8 karma roles.

This would make them indistinguishable unless they're careless.

I agree with this!

[BadSkeelz]

Why don't we give Sorcerers the ability to command any NPC they want and not need to ask for consent for any action? They're 8 karma roles, after all.

...


Let's see what kind of problem these subguilds are in game before we start contemplating giving them even more power.

[shadeoux]

Personally, I like the change. More diversity more change. I wasn't able to see mmyself playing a full blown sorc due to the limitations set with the guild itself. Now the options are nearly limitless, and I can dig that....  I would like Staff to reconsider the Karma level though being 1/4 the power approx, I think that 6 or 7 Karma would suffice. I am going to send in a request though for another option I don't want to let be known quite yet though.... but I think would be amazing....

[Reiloth]

Why don't we give Sorcerers the ability to command any NPC they want and not need to ask for consent for any action? They're 8 karma roles, after all.

...


Let's see what kind of problem these subguilds are in game before we start contemplating giving them even more power.

Agreed.

[wizturbo]

After mulling over the discussion on this thread, I had an idea that I felt was worth sharing that may please all parties involved.

What if Sorcerer's PCs must all start down one path, and after mastering it, they need to perform some kind of quest of ascension to begin down another path?  That quest may vary depending on the sorcerer, and would not be a hard coded thing you do without direct staff involvement.  The quests would almost certainly involve doing things that will cause the aspiring sorcerer to have to work with or against other PCs in order to complete them.  Each consecutive quest after the first would be much more difficult to achieve.  This could even directly tie in with the history of Zalanthas, with the murder of Quintus Tektolnes being a part of the Highlord's own rite of ascension.

In short, these quests could be designed to be powerful plot devices.  There will be no Sorcerers who live in caves their entire lives before emerging as super powers, they will have to grow organically, and they'll almost certainly make enemies & allies in the process.  Of course, some Sorcerers aren't as ambitious (or suicidal) and will never pursue ascension, fearing drawing the attention of the world's super powers upon them.

Mechanically speaking, once a Sorcerer fully masters a path, they can choose to pursue an ascension quest via the request tool to take on another.  The staff can choose to introduce that quest solely on their own discretion, taking whatever they want into account.  The road to power isn't guaranteed.  Some Sorcerer's may never have, or fail to recognize, the opportunity to pursue ascension.  This can be for in-game reasons or purely because the staff don't have the resources to support an ascension quest at that time.  Hell, even if the staff refuse 9 out of 10 requests, that 10th they accept will add some amazingly cool stories and interactions in the game.

Anyhow, idea conveyed, curious to see if anyone thinks this is cool or stupid...I'm sure you all won't be shy about sharing your feelings

[Reiloth]

The problem there would be favoritism, or perceived favoritism. If Staff deny one Sorcerer this ascension quest, why should they approve the next one? What's the criteria there?

I like the idea in general (Pursuit of other paths of magick), but without stimulation, how would that Sorcerer understand there -are- different paths of magick? Call this stimulation knowledge granted from another teacher, or a grimoire of spells. Without that -- The sorcerer of Movement Magick may not understand there is another path of Enlightenment Magick or Enchantment Magick.

[wizturbo]

The problem there would be favoritism, or perceived favoritism. If Staff deny one Sorcerer this ascension quest, why should they approve the next one? What's the criteria there?

I like the idea in general (Pursuit of other paths of magick), but without stimulation, how would that Sorcerer understand there -are- different paths of magick? Call this stimulation knowledge granted from another teacher, or a grimoire of spells. Without that -- The sorcerer of Movement Magick may not understand there is another path of Enlightenment Magick or Enchantment Magick.

I don't care about favoritism personally.  These are Karma 8 roles, they're already staff favorites to some degree.  Also everyone would need to keep in mind that these ascension quests aren't for the Sorcerer's player, they're for enriching the game world and everyone else whose along for the ride.  

I think its safe to say, that embarking on an ascension quest line will mean that Sorcerer character is going to die horribly in most cases.  I don't expect anyone to ever ascend all four paths without meeting that tragic end.  But think of the amazing stories that will be told along the way?  Lovers parted (perhaps even sacrificed...), dark rituals and rites, Templar's rushing to prevent a Sorcerer from becoming a threat to their beloved city-state...  All really cool stuff!

As for the stimulation part...  I'm not really sure I follow you.  Sorcerer's know there are other paths of magick, just how they know of their own path.  At some point in their career, they started on one path, and it was probably a choice as they weren't born into it like elementalists.  Knowing that another path exists is completely different than knowing where to start pursuing it.  Plus, there's nothing stopping us from saying that pursuing more than one path requires you to gain power outside of just pure knowledge.  Maybe you need some kind of object, or in the preserver/defiler tradition, destroy life or sacrifice in some way to grow in strength to accept another path...  There are lots of possibilities here, and I think the staff are clever enough to come up with some amazing stories here if given the chance.

[Reiloth]

Is that the case though?

I imagine they only know one path of Magick, because that is what they learned, through whatever means they did. It doesn't necessarily imply they know of the other paths, or have a desire to pursue them. I think the desire for knowledge/more spells is a meta one.

[MeTekillot]

Idk, if only one path gets create food/water then why would you not want to learn a little bit of it? You rid yourself of a need that literally 99% of other people spend their lives slaving away in clay pits and obsidian mines by just learning a little bit of magick. How is that meta?

And by then, you have a little taste of power. And now you want to get rid of your need to eat. Or breathe. Or see as other people do. Because you know you can if you try, so why wouldn't you try?

[Reiloth]

Knowing that such a spell exists that you, a Sorcerer, can cast. I dunno. It seems like a hazy grey area, to me.

[Ouroboros]

... and would not be a hard coded thing you do without direct staff involvement.

That would likely be a problem because...

We are not really fans of animating JUST because there is no alternative to be found within existing code or the playerbase.

And...

To be quite honest, the unclanned team has plenty of other things that they can or should be doing rather than micromanaging a powerful sorcerer PC.  If we're talking a late-game sorcerer (in other words, tons of magickal power) then they can codedly do whatever they want.  Because of that, every staff team is involved.

While the quotes refer to the demands a full Sorcerer had over staff due to their power level, it's not a stretch to say staff would be adverse to having to dedicate the same amount of energy and micromanagement to a single PC for different reasons.

... But think of the amazing stories that will be told along the way?  Lovers parted (perhaps even sacrificed...), dark rituals and rites, Templar's rushing to prevent a Sorcerer from becoming a threat to their beloved city-state...  All really cool stuff!

All that really cool stuff is generally perceived as requiring staff to dedicate their time to the plots of a single PC and a handful around them, in what would undoubtedly constitute a magick-heavy plot. Neither of which appear to be high on staff's priority list, and likely at least in part contributed to the decision to remove the guild to begin with.

Plus what Reiloth said. The moment one player is rejected and another is accepted, issues would surface. This would be different than rejecting a special application for example, because if playing a mini-sorc it's assumed staff already has trust in you to play it right. At which point being rejected ascension could easily be perceived not as a matter of trust, but of favor or lack thereof.

In general many players have shared many ideas on how sorcerers could be brought back as an option. Full sorcerers however are, currently at least, off the table. We can lament their loss, share our feelings on how that impacts us or might impact the game, share thoughts on aspects lost that could be brought back in different ways... But coming up with ideas on how to bring back something staff just took off the table is fairly futile.

[shadeoux]

I'd like to see the following....
ALL sorcs start as an elementalist, it is only if they PURSUE a second calling of magic that they become defiled and lose the regeneration ability, but at that point they have to defile or preserve to get mana. Now what do you have there, a REASON for sorcery an elementalist wants more power, great your 10 day old whiran chooses to learn Krathi spells, he needs to ;
1) already be a magicker,
2) Find someone willing to teach them. (That might be a difficult thing)
3) Survive and trust the person teaching them the said spell lines.

Once they would become the Sorc, at that point limit the amount of elements they can learn codedly and if they pursue the sorc line, then drop the main guild or really dumb it down or cap it much like subguilds are now. You then have a nearly limitless potential in the combinations of classes one can be as a sorc.

I.E.
A Rukkian/aggressor (Lets say for the sake of argument they cap the fighting style they wanted) decides later they want to break the bonds of morality and turn into an abomination they seek out a Krathi to learn from and eventually find someone willing to teach them the ways of the sun. At the first point of -teach- to give them the first spell to branch from they STOP regenerating mana all together. Now they have to be a preserver or defiler AND only know Rukkian spells and a single wek level Krathi spell. Once the mana regeneration stops, it takes a physical toll on ones mind and body and wracks them in pain to to the point that they simply can't perform the Aggressor sub anymore or it is highly less effective (possibly dropping the capped skills by 30-50%)....

Sorry lost my train of thought....
But what do you think?

[Reiloth]

The thing I like about this change is it allows someone to have an entire life before they cast magick -- It more closely resembles in my mind what sorcery is. Normal person finds eldritch magick by X Y Z reason -- Becomes awful defiler/not-as-awful preserver.

[Ouroboros]

But what do you think?

I think an elementalist would inherently be adverse to both preserving or defiling, as well as find the idea of perusing a "calling" other than the element they were touched by fairly repulsive. These folks didn't choose magick, magick chose them. It's a very different mentality than what a sorcerer has. A sorcerer would likely be jealous of an elementalist, for having been born with something they themselves had to dedicate themselves to study and either their body or morals to fuel. In turn, an elementalist is unlikely to view a sorceror as anything more than a pitiful abomination, regardless of the power they held.

Further from a technical standpoint, guild/subguild swapping is a complicated affair and what you're proposing would require direct staff intervention at every step along the way. As code goes the first part of your equation can likely be done, the stopping of regen and ability to gather/defile granted, but having to swap out their subguild for another and manually add spells to an elementalist is bordering on the impossible technically and improbable from a time-consumption standpoint.

[BadSkeelz]

But what do you think?

In addition to Ouroboros' critiques (which I second), such an idea would negate one big advantage this change gives new sorcerers: the ability to have a mundane class to use to build their character's story before they become a Sorcerer, and to help them hide and continue to interact with after the fact. Now, they'd always be a freak.

[wizturbo]

All that really cool stuff is generally perceived as requiring staff to dedicate their time to the plots of a single PC and a handful around them, in what would undoubtedly constitute a magick-heavy plot. Neither of which appear to be high on staff's priority list, and likely at least in part contributed to the decision to remove the guild to begin with.

This is where we disagree.  I don't view these as plots that only a single PC or a handful around them get to experience.  When I say ascension quest, I don't mean get the skull of a silt-horror and chant mumbo-jumbo at it.  I mean quests that will directly involve many PCs, either as allies or enemies.  Yes, they will require work on the staff part to facilitate like any RPT, but that's why it's purely at their discretion on whether or not to offer the quest.  

Rogue sorcerers who are off in the wastes alone, not involving anyone, almost universally should be rejected...  But a sorcerer masquerading as a Bynner, who works their way up to Sergeant so he can be in a position to have a troop of mercenaries at his command, if only for one mission before Byn leadership catches on...  That may be a story worth pursuing.

[BadSkeelz]

You could just moderate your own spell advancement instead of constantly twinking up when the rest of the clan is offline. Only twink up after you've accomplished a goal you set out for yourself (getting that silt horror gonad or whatever).