Change to Kick and Bash

[Kismetic]

I'd like to propose a change to kick and bash to make them more generic, and add the use of pre-emotes with them.  The following are only suggested alterations, and subject to debate:

rush <target>
strike <target>

Ex:

rush amos
You rush at the tall, muscular man, knocking him down.

rush amos (slamming your shield against him)
Slamming your shield against him, you rush at the tall, muscular man, knocking him down.

rush amos (spinning low into a sweep kick)
Spinning low into a sweep kick, you rush at the tall, muscular man, knocking him down.

strike talia
You strike the tan, muscular woman.

strike talia (knee to the gut)
Knee to the gut, you strike the tan, muscular woman.

strike talia (with a headbutt)
With a headbutt, you strike the tan, muscular woman.


More freedom to roleplay, and not box warriors (and others who use these skills) into a corner, regarding the flavor of an attack?  Discuss.

[Jingo]

Kismet for Sun King 2016

(SunKingGud)

[RogueGunslinger]

Yes please.

[Barsook]

I dig this.

[BadSkeelz]

I give this ten >rush [throwing a kick to the nuts]s out of ten.

[WanderingOoze]

+1  Good idea, I get tired of kicking half giants in the head....it really hurts my Pc's to lift their leg so high :/

[slvrmoontiger]

I love the idea of the pre-emotes, but I'm not sure why the command names need to change. Strike isn't accurate if you're kicking someone. Rush does make more sense than bash because bash implies that you are hitting someone with something hard, but not usually used as a weapon. Having said that, perhaps rush should be added as a new skill and bash should be something that would branch from shield use as a skill to actually bash someone with your shield.

[RogueGunslinger]

I love the idea of the pre-emotes, but I'm not sure why the command names need to change. Strike isn't accurate if you're kicking someone. Rush does make more sense than bash because bash implies that you are hitting someone with something hard, but not usually used as a weapon. Having said that, perhaps rush should be added as a new skill and bash should be something that would branch from shield use as a skill to actually bash someone with your shield.

What? You don't think a kick is a strike? The point is you can use more than just your boot to hit someone. You can punch, elbow, headbutt. As it is now people with use the kick command, then emote an entirely different action, and it's sort of jarring and weird.

Same goes for bash. There are multiple ways to get someone on the ground, trips, sweeps, hip-throws... The more generic the word the better, because it can encompass all of these actions.

[FantasyWriter]

+1

[slvrmoontiger]

I love the idea of the pre-emotes, but I'm not sure why the command names need to change. Strike isn't accurate if you're kicking someone. Rush does make more sense than bash because bash implies that you are hitting someone with something hard, but not usually used as a weapon. Having said that, perhaps rush should be added as a new skill and bash should be something that would branch from shield use as a skill to actually bash someone with your shield.

What? You don't think a kick is a strike? The point is you can use more than just your boot to hit someone. You can punch, elbow, headbutt. As it is now people with use the kick command, then emote an entirely different action, and it's sort of jarring and weird.

Same goes for bash. There are multiple ways to get someone on the ground, trips, sweeps, hip-throws... The more generic the word the better, because it can encompass all of these actions.

Well then don't get rid of a command totally just because you want something new to go into the game. Get the new command added to the skills. Kick works the way it is and works as intended.

[RogueGunslinger]

Kick would be redundant with a strike command. Are you suggesting we have a separate skill for kick, headbut, sweeps, round-house, punches, and shield-bash?

[MeTekillot]

yes

[slvrmoontiger]

All I'm saying is kick works as intended. To replace it sounds contrary to how things normally work. Kick could be it's own thing. Strike could mean everything else, except shield bashes. Bash should be change to shield bashes and should branch from shield use. Rush or perhaps a charge command should be used to take the place of running at an opponent and knocking them over.

The definition of strike include use of hands and/or weapons, but I've never heard of it defined as using feet. Kick defines kicking at something with one's feet. They should be treated separately.

[RogueGunslinger]

No, they shouldn't. The definition of strike is very loose. Have you never hear of someone striking a soccer ball into a goal? You would be replacing kick with a much more robust and role-play friendly skill.

[RogueGunslinger]

I want you to go look up the definition of kick and tell me what it says.


Edit:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/kick
"Strike or propel forcibly with the foot"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_%28attack%29
"A strike is a directed physical attack with either an inanimate object (such as a weapon) or with a part of the human body intended to cause blunt trauma or penetrating trauma upon an opponent. There are many different varieties of strikes. An attack with the hand closed into a fist is called a punch; an attack with the leg or foot is referred to as a kick; and an attack with the head is called a headbutt. There are also other variations employed in martial arts and combat sports. Buffet or beat refer to repeatedly and violently striking an opponent. Also commonly referred to as a combination, or combo, especially in boxing or fighting video games."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick
"A kick is a physical strike using the foot, leg, or knee (the latter is also known as a knee strike). This type of attack is used frequently by hooved animals as well as humans in the context of stand-up fighting. Kicks play a significant role in many forms of martial arts, such as Taekwondo, Sikaran, Karate, Pankration, Kung fu, Vovinam, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Capoeira, Silat, and Kalarippayattu."

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/strike
"Hit forcibly and deliberately with one's hand or a weapon or other implement:"


Can you tell I'm bored right now?

[Kismetic]

I don't want to make a fuss over more cumbersome code additions.  I'm talking about a cosmetic change to two skills, to make them more broadly applicable.  If you want to be nay, be nay, and you can even be extra nay, but be on topic, please.  Thanks!

Edited for grammar typo

[Kismetic]

strike slv (slapping you right in the face)

Jk, but that's what I wanna do in game, whatever kind of damage I can think up.

[manonfire]

necksnap or gtfo

[ghostymudy]

Strike kismet (flipping a table, crushing many patrons, except for the deft fella with mask)

[Cale_Knight]

You'd want to set it up so that the command emotes don't kick in if the skill fails, but rather gives a generic fail message. That would give more freedom to be creative, since you wouldn't have to worry about will I/won't I when considering the emote.

I don't feel strongly about changing kick to strike, but for some reason changing "bash" hits a bad note with me. "Rush" is a much less visceral and descriptive word.

[Harmless]

I like strike, it's a classic gdb idea, I like being able to emote bashes and strikes, but what's wrong with the word bash?

[RogueGunslinger]

I like strike, it's a classic gdb idea, I like being able to emote bashes and strikes, but what's wrong with the word bash?

Generally the best way to get someone on the ground isn't to plow into them, but to grab low and lift them, or to sweep a leg when they're off balance.

It's one of the reasons I've always thought that height/bash shouldn't be tied in the way they are. Technically a short/squat dwarf should be the hardest person to get on the ground. Where the tall/skinny elf should be much easier to put off center, but the code does it backwards. But I guess if Bash is really you just charging headlong into people(a terrible tactic in combat) then maybe it is correct, becuase in that instance the bigger/heavier person would probably be more successful.

[Gimfalisette]

You'd want to set it up so that the command emotes don't kick in if the skill fails, but rather gives a generic fail message. That would give more freedom to be creative, since you wouldn't have to worry about will I/won't I when considering the emote.

Yeah, this.

necksnap or gtfo

And this.

[Harmless]

Then we also need trip. Give it to assassins and thieves, please.

Or just make all these combat skills brancheable to a low cap by all guilds.

[Cale_Knight]

I think adding more stun abilities is one of the worst things we could do. I've seen "stun creep" absolutely kill other MUD combat systems before. It's good that stun is limited to the guild that otherwise has very little non-combat utility.

[CodeMaster]

I think kick, bash and rescue are Diku classics (probably why they exist as they do and why they've probably stuck around since the MUD's inception).  Braindump:

1. Hit/kill emotes would be cool too.  It would be great if, during combat, you could type "hit <target> (raising his axe high)" and instead of:

Code Select Expand


> hit man (raising his axe high)
You're already fighting!

The brown-bearded man slaps you on the wrist.
The brown-bearded man slaps you on the other wrist.
You chop the brown-bearded man on the wrist.

you'd get:

Code Select Expand


> hit man (raising his axe high)
You prepare your attack.

The brown-bearded man slaps you on the wrist.
The brown-bearded man slaps you on the other wrist.
Raising his axehigh, you chop the brown-bearded man on the wrist.


2. Acrobat getting 'kick' makes intuitive sense; acrobat getting 'strike' makes less sense, but that can probably be worded around and/or the subguild renamed.  'Performer' and some wording about them occasionally making livings in staged gladiatorial events could help.

3. The word "rush" is probably only slightly better than the word "bash".  Both imply some kind of a charge whereas taking someone to the ground can involve subtler maneuvers including trips and/or forward throws (probably less likely in armed combat).

4. Another nice improvement to bash would be to have an option to do a sacrificial throw that takes you as well as your opponent to the ground, possibly with an increased chance for success.  Right now I believe one person or the other falls - never both.

[Reiloth]

Providing alternative combat methods to classes like Burglar, Pickpocket, and Assassin would be great.

In a world without kick, bash, or disarm, it makes all of these classes pale to the Mighty Warrior -- And while such abilities wouldn't need to match the heavy combat of Warrior/Ranger, there should be some alternatives. Trip was mentioned, or maybe some form of 'Critical Strike'.

A 100 Day Assassin should be able to kill a 100 day Warrior with backstab and follow-through attacks. Massive attacks should induce some sort of penalty to skills on the receiving end.

[Harmless]

poisons go a long way, and assassins are masters of poisoning. I know "dirt kick" is probably one of the most unpopular diku attack moves in existence, but a temporary blinding might allow for a quick escape and second backstab.
edited to add: a good, high flee skill could be emoted to be a dirt kick as is, so nevermind that skill.

I am pretty sure armageddon doesn't have a more elaborate set of coded combat moves because the focus is on the roleplaying and not the combat code, but I also understand people wanting a little more spice in their combat scenes.

I think being able to add emotes to attacks like CM mentioned or kick/rush are great additions with that in mind.

[Reiloth]

True, and by posting that I countermanded my own signature.

[Gimfalisette]

I would enjoy it if combat were more strategic and more emoting-friendly. And a lot less spammy. * I'd probably play combat PCs more often.

I don't really care about balancing individual classes against one another all that much. I'm good with warriors pwning assassins in a fair fight, and assassins pwning warriors in an unfair fight. Making classes individually balanced actually kinda feels un-Zalanthan to me.

* This would make RPT combat much more tolerable.

[Reiloth]

Not exactly balanced...I would never want that. I enjoy that Zalanthas is unbalanced as far as power goes.

As it stands though, Warriors are ++++, while Rangers are maybe ++/+++, and Assassins are maybe +/++, and everyone else is +.

I feel that Warriors shouldn't rely on the fact that they chose Guild Warrior, and that makes them far superior to all other classes in close combat.

Not to mention, watching two Very Great Warriors fight is about as exciting as watching a tree grow.

More dynamic skills, and shorter, more brutal combat, would be the direction i'd be most interested in.

Ideas off the top of my head...
*Combat Fatigue -- The longer you are in combat, the more likely you are to make a mistake. Your stamina begins to tick off, and your skills cost more stamina cumulatively. It would also be based off a combination of Strength and Endurance, with heavier emphasis on the latter. This would make combat both shorter (Someone's gotta give), and perhaps make things like desert travel more dangerous -- Multiple encounters with Raptors or Gith would be taxing, and require you to pick and choose wisely.
*Strike -- As OP described, leaving more room for emotes, but also creating a push/pull. If you attempt to make a strike, you leave yourself off-balance if you miss, and thus make yourself more vulnerable to attack. Also give everyone this skill, but make Warriors "The Best" at it, while other classes have much lower caps.
*Make Parry a generic skill everyone can have. Make Riposte a Warrior only skill (Someone parries, you have a chance of landing another blow. Make it even more dynamic and require someone to type 'riposte' after a parry, and before the next blow.)
*Let everyone have the 'flee skill'.
*Heavy blows of any weapon damage type cause stun damage.
*Wounds over a certain damage point cause maximum HP to lower, which regains naturally over time.

[RogueGunslinger]

Sign me up for that game.

[deathkamon]

Something to add: Maybe if -really- huge amounts of damage is achieved, things can be permanently severed from someone's body or something broken or organ ruptures etc. depending on weapon type used.

[Riev]

I just want a "set effort" command, so people can throw a fight.

And also, "combat aim" and "spell aim". Ancient Anguish had a great spellaim parameter that allowed offensive spells to be aimed for different body parts. Aiming a magic missile at the head did a lot of damage, but was more difficult to hit.

Imagine if you could even just "aim high", "aim low", "aim mid". Aiming high would be more difficult to land hits, but when you hit it HITS, aiming low would be easier to hit but causes less damage, and aiming mid would be a balance. Or however it could work.


Related to the topic though, "bash" needs to be more of a "takedown" instead of "rush". I like simpler, smaller words, but we can always alias however we see fit. Just changing the names is a good start, allowing pre/post emoting would be beneficial but I don't see it as adding much.

[Reiloth]

Something to add: Maybe if -really- huge amounts of damage is achieved, things can be permanently severed from someone's body or something broken or organ ruptures etc. depending on weapon type used.

I'd rather leave this kind of thing to PC's imagination/playability. Sure, i've played PC's that have gotten maimed, but I took it upon myself to open that conversation with Staff. I wouldn't want something potentially debilitating (that I then need to play with) happen purely because of code.

Death, I don't mind. But dismemberment/maiming should be a player's choice.

[valeria]

I agree about dismembering being the player's choice.

As far as kick/bash, I like the overall idea, as long as they just leave the commands kick/bash or something equally short.  Longer commands are easier for me to screw up in a fight, and I really hate that.  I have a hard enough time with fele.  feel.  flee.  Strike/rush would be fine.  Still, I'm not sure that it's necessary to change the names just because you're changing how they work to be more open.

[Kismetic]

I agree about dismembering being the player's choice.

Not picking on you, Val, but when I read that as the most recent post, I'ma thinking y'all have some serious ADD.

[FantasyWriter]

I've always asked for OOC consent before permanently dismembering or maiming another character.
But it hasn't happened that often.... really.... I promise!

>hide

[RogueGunslinger]

lol poor Kismet's thread.

Just realize your idea is a good one when people wander off topic so easily. There's usually nothing to discuss beyond "good idea".

[Reiloth]

Good ideas usually lead to good discussion revolving around those ideas...At least this hasn't turned into a troll festival.

This idea touches on the antiquity of DIKU combat -- After all, it would be nice to attach pemote/emotes to combat abilities, considering this is a RPI.

However, it could delve deeper. Considering the game has been around for as long as it has, an overhaul of combat seems long overdue (and also daunting as far as a code project). It was part of what I was looking forward to the most in 2.0.

[Qzzrbl]

Wonder how many times this exact idea is gonna get suggested before it winds up implemented, if it ever does.

[Saellyn]

I'm sure they're gradually working on a codebase overhaul that will bring new life to the MUD.

[MeTekillot]

enter barrel

[Qzzrbl]

i used to think a lot could happen in eight years

[Reiloth]

i used to think a lot could happen in eight years

Welcome to Real Life, son.

[Dresan]

bash->knockdown =You pull some maneuver to try to knock your opponent to the ground. This along with Kick becoming strike, are ideas that have been floating around for a long time, would love to see it become reality. The original argument against them  was that staff didn't trust players to use the skills realistically but consider we have the ability to use chalk on streets, and now change ldesc, I don't see how these aren't more abuse-able ability.

The only thing is that during combat, real combat where you pc's life is at stake, you only have maybe one chance to throw down a single emote. Sometimes the heart is pumping too hard to type anything other then simple commands like flee. During these times its probably better to keep bash and kick as they are to avoid things being more plain then they sometimes already are, otherwise you'll just see:

The red mul knocks you down!
the red mul strikes you!
*mantis head*

It works about the same at the end though if you ask me.

Combat fatigue is something I want to see more then anything else, and I would add this as well : The more wounded you are the shittier you fight. I think you already have a greater chance of being reeled but still, unless what your opponent is looking as dead as you fighting something at 10 hp shouldn't end well for you. I'm going to disagree with giving everyone the flee skill,since its too easy to flee already. It should be harder to flee from someone who has a high flee skill, specifically if you have no or very low flee skill yourself. They should have the ability to block your escape in addition to free attacks.

[Bushranger]

Bash just means a strong, crushing blow. It's generic enough to mean knocking someone down with a slam from their shield or a leg sweep to their knee.

bash amos (slamming your shield against him)
Slamming your shield against him, you bash the tall, muscular man, knocking him down.

bash amos (spinning low into a sweep kick)
Spinning low into a sweep kick, you bash the tall, muscular man, knocking him down.

Bash is a much more combative verb than rush which usually just means to act quickly! (One can argue for a violent tone when using rush I grant you but it is not always the case as it is with bash)

Kick to strike I can understand wanting to change to allow for it not to be seen as restricted to the feet.

[Kismetic]

I'd be all for merely changing bash to allow for pre-emotes, as long as the strings shown were generic enough to function that way.  Kick should absolutely be changed to strike, no question.  This thread devolved into other people's combat wants, but the majority of posts regarding the actual topic seem to at least agree that pre-emotes and a generic strike command would be excellent.

[Desertman]

Yes.

While we are at it we can add the same code to the brawl system.

[Is Friday]

>bash gith (throwing !gith with ^me brain powers)