Lockpicking - Assess Lock

[Yummri]

So, I wasn't sure if something like this existed already, but here goes.

I was thinking that a feature could be added to the lockpicking skill that would allow said picker to -guess- how difficult a lock might be fore them.
So this could be done by an assess <exit> or by an actually skill check.

You would need to be holding a lockpick of some kind.
command: gauge <lock/object/exit/container>
Echo: You crouch down and carefully insert the pick into the lock.
Success: You rake the pick over the tumblers and think that the lock is would be (easy, manageable, tricky, almost impossible) for you.
Partial: You struggle to get a feel for the tumblers but at your best guess (blah blah blah)
Failure: You rake the pick over the tumblers to roughly and it snaps.

Obviously a partial success would give only a guess at best and I don't think this should help skill levelling at all. But it is a reasonably realistic way a thief/or other sneaky type my test a lock at the risk of breaking picks or being spotted.

Better than just blindly trying a lock for a bunch of rp reasons but adds some flavour to the attempt. Its just a rough idea that I thought might be cool and would be optional for people to use or not. Please do not shoot it down to hard. Thank you.

[LittleLady]

I could see something like this being really useful, as long as it is skill dependent for the check to guess at the lock. If it remains skill dependent than I think it would be fitting for a picker to be able to have some idea by feel of the "grade" of the lock.

[Skeeter]

I both love & hate this - It's a great idea however, makes me think that, how would a PC determine how hard it is to pick, until actually trying?

Unless it was purely a case of, seeing how many tumblers there were - since it would be nearly impossible to gauge anything else without actually beginning to pick the thing.

I think that rather than have it echo the difficulty of the lock, it would make more sense to simply echo the complexity, that is - how well made a lock is. It would be weird to echo how easy it is for the PC, without having the context behind why it's easy/hard.

It would simply make sense for your PC to know, "Oh, okay, this one's pretty complex. But I've managed a complex one the other week, so I'll give it a go."

Just a thought

[valeria]

I also think it would make the most success if it was based on a skill check, and its output was based on your relative skill.  What's impossible one year might be very easy a decade later.

[Yummri]

Well difficulty would be measured in how many tumblers there are and how tight the tumblers are set. A well made lock by a master locksmith would bde set tight and not easy to manipulate by anything but the key that was made to fit. A crappy lock ould e the opposite. You get what you pay for after all.

So yeah, echoing the complexity might be better also but you could tell what may or may not be difficult as even a master lock could be difficult even for highly skilled people and it should be. Skill check all the way.

[Harmless]

I think it'd be pretty rad if traps could be set within a door or box's lock. Assess that shit, you fucking burglars.  

[LittleLady]

I think it'd be pretty rad if traps could be set within a door or box's lock. Assess that shit, you fucking burglars.  

I think if traps are brought back into game that this skill check, if implemented, should also hold random chances to find a trap or accidentally set it off. After all you would be fiddling with the mechanisms inside the lock to check it out like that.

[slvrmoontiger]

I think it'd be pretty rad if traps could be set within a door or box's lock. Assess that shit, you fucking burglars.  

I think if traps are brought back into game that this skill check, if implemented, should also hold random chances to find a trap or accidentally set it off. After all you would be fiddling with the mechanisms inside the lock to check it out like that.

I don't see where a lock picking skill would have the ability of finding traps. That would be some sort of trap finding skill or something. However, it should definitely give you the same result as picking a lock with a trap on it because you're fiddling with it. That is if traps are ever brought back.

[Yummri]

Silvermoontiger wrote:

I don't see where a lock picking skill would have the ability of finding traps. That would be some sort of trap finding skill or something. However, it should definitely give you the same result as picking a lock with a trap on it because you're fiddling with it. That is if traps are ever brought back

Well honestly that doesn't make any sense at all. It is entirely plausible for a lock picker to detect a track if they are examining a lock. Just as its entirely possible for anyone observant to notice a tripwire on the floor. Its an abnormality in a lock that they could notice.

It should be skill dependent on finding it and either avoiding the trigger or setting it off. But it doesn't need a entirely new skill called trap finding to discover it.

That being said its a derailment of this thread.

[slvrmoontiger]

Silvermoontiger wrote:

I don't see where a lock picking skill would have the ability of finding traps. That would be some sort of trap finding skill or something. However, it should definitely give you the same result as picking a lock with a trap on it because you're fiddling with it. That is if traps are ever brought back

Well honestly that doesn't make any sense at all. It is entirely plausible for a lock picker to detect a track if they are examining a lock. Just as its entirely possible for anyone observant to notice a tripwire on the floor. Its an abnormality in a lock that they could notice.

It should be skill dependent on finding it and either avoiding the trigger or setting it off. But it doesn't need a entirely new skill called trap finding to discover it.

That being said its a derailment of this thread.

Just because someone is a lock picker doesn't mean they are good at finding traps. Enough said I was just commenting. As you pointed out it's outside the scope of this topic.

[CodeMaster]

I support this idea.

I believe that something similar to what the OP describes is achievable by typing "pick door" followed by "pick door relock".  You have a chance at burning your lockpick and you probably find out if the lock is above or below your skill level.  Maybe that is not granular enough, though (perhaps you want to see if a lock is something your unskilled friend can practice with).

A kind of "pick door assess" option would be pretty cool to shortcut the process.

[Reiloth]

I like this idea, if and only if picking locks actually becomes dangerous for burglars.

Spending time to figure out if a lock is tricky to pick should draw unwanted attention, even from strangers. If I see people in modern times jiggling car door handles, my shade-dar goes up.

Questions this brings up are:
-Do Burglars need a way to train picking locks that isn't actually picking locks?
-Would training to pick a lock be sort of like casting at 'nil'?
-Should picking locks in a populated area trigger crime-code, on a critical failure, in the same way 'steal' does?

[slvrmoontiger]

I like this idea, if and only if picking locks actually becomes dangerous for burglars.

Spending time to figure out if a lock is tricky to pick should draw unwanted attention, even from strangers. If I see people in modern times jiggling car door handles, my shade-dar goes up.

Questions this brings up are:
-Do Burglars need a way to train picking locks that isn't actually picking locks?
-Would training to pick a lock be sort of like casting at 'nil'?
-Should picking locks in a populated area trigger crime-code, on a critical failure, in the same way 'steal' does?

Interesting questions and I agree. Every time a character of mine has caught someone picking a lock they have done something and reacted strongly to it and the character picking the lock. Depending on the character and the situation of course depended on what my character's reaction was, but needless to say he/she didn't ever brush it under the rug so to speak.

Being seen picking locks in a populated area, even an apartment building and especially to a room that is within view of the apartment manager (1 or 2 rooms away let's say) should crim-flag the burglar. Not sure if it does, but it should.

[Harmless]

Questions this brings up are:
-Do Burglars need a way to train picking locks that isn't actually picking locks?
-Would training to pick a lock be sort of like casting at 'nil'?
-Should picking locks in a populated area trigger crime-code, on a critical failure, in the same way 'steal' does?

- No. It's easy enough as is
- teach maybe?
- I'd love it if critical failures were, say, particularly noisy or noticeable failures, and something I've always wanted in apartments were roving NPC guards occasionally checking the hallways of the apartment building for oddities.

[frankjacoby]

How are there even locks without Metal?

[Reiloth]

Need vs Realism.

It could be construed that Zalanthan materials are not exactly the same as Earth materials -- Combinations of obsidian, dense bone, wood, crystal, or other objects could be substituted for metal.

Now that doesn't mean that locks shouldn't be able to get kicked into an apartment -- Without metal reinforcement, etc.

But again, Need vs Realism. People need locks that work, in order to have inaccessible parts of the game except to people with lock picks and brass balls, or clan members.

[CodeMaster]

With no engineering experience whatsoever to go on , I think you could create a moderately effective if crude lock without using metal.  Dense bone, ivory, etc. could probably be used as stand-ins.  The components would be oversized (especially the bolt), the lock would jam frequently, be easy to vandalize, and require as much maintenance as a pinball machine from the 40s.  But it wasn't all that long ago that we were building computers with vacuum tubes.

That being said, I think some of the locks in the game are made of metal, and/or are require metal keys to unlock.

[Harmless]

Locks should jam if you fail to pick them, esp a critical fail. Using the legit key unjams it. Trying to pick a jammed lock should make a loud, obvious scratching sound in the mechanisms, and alert nearby npcs/vnpcs

Lockpicks breaking should make a loud snap sound that can be heard a room away, again, alert the attention of npcs and vnpcs

I am on a roll here, watch the fuck out you burglar scum

* Harmless intends to roll up a burglar as soon as the above changes are coded :p

Edited to add, oh but if you can assess locks and tell it is jammed by some other burglar scum then its all cool

[Yummri]

I fully agree that burgling apartments should indeed be much more dangerous. As it is right now it is way to easy to steal nd get away with it. I've seen this a lot in game.

I also fully agree that critical failures on lockpicking in general should be a lot harsher than losing a simple lockpick and trying again.

I did however say in my OP that this idea -WOULD NOT- allow you to train your skills via this method. As you are not actually practicing. You are just testing it to see how hard of a time you'd have in your -attempt- to pick the door. Your not gaining knowledge of how to pick Your just using your knowledge eof picking to make an assessment of the situation. Something all lockpickers would know or should know.

Again its more flavour and assistance than it is something that would train you further. And I imagine how easily you are caught would depend on the situation and the time you chose to attempt the lock. Its shady but that is more an IC matter.

[Reiloth]

Ah, so it would just be based on your current skill level, and not cause a gain if you were to fail.

It should (along with actually picking a lock) provide a chance of being caught, though, as to not let someone just spam 'check the lock'.

[Yummri]

Oh without a doubt you are still tampering with the lock, you could still be making noise and you are still crouched infront of a door in a hallway.

Checking a lock is still a suspicious act.

[slvrmoontiger]

Right, it's more of a thought to determine where you are with your skill from how I understood it. Not a way to train or boost your skill. Just a gauge of sorts "Am I skilled enough to pick this lock?" Just because it says you are doesn't always mean a lock pick will succeed though, just like all other things on Arm there is a roll that determines if you fail or succeed.

[Case]

It'd be weird if they're tumbler locks, but then again, picking's done without a torsion wrench IG too so... they might not be.

And since there's many types of lock, and some you can only gauge what type by experience with brand/model/make number/key series, it is extremely realistic to not be able to tell without written reference material or mechanical diagrams, without trying it.

Crit fails should jam or destroy the lock, and maybe leave pick debris in it Successful picks should leave pick debris too

[FantasyWriter]

Yeah, an echo to the renter would be nice.

Code Select Expand

>unlock door east
After a few moments of you manage to force the key into the lock.  Something falls to the floor.

A broken sliver of bone like here.

[CodeMaster]

Yeah, an echo to the renter would be nice.

Code Select Expand

>unlock door east
After a few moments of you manage to force the key into the lock.  Something falls to the floor.

A broken sliver of bone like here.

I am liking all your ideas today... reminds me anecdotally of the "thief knot" which is a variation on the reef knot, but slightly different, so that you can see whether someone's been in your bag or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_knot

[Reiloth]

Other skills like Steal have "non critical fails" that have a chance of echoing to the victim that someone is rifling through their things. I imagine leaving a trail would lead towards people crying for a witch hunt. But it seems mildly realistic, especially if a crit fail wherein you break the lock makes the lock unpick able until opened by a key , with the echo that debris was blocking it resembling a lock pick.