An idea to help criminals and shadow artists in Tuluk...

[Jingo]

Personally I think we should just do away with the forced racism nonsense and let elves be able to join clans.

[FantasyWriter]

Dwarves, muls, halfgiants, and gith too while we're at it?

City elves are codely awesome at the things one who reads the docs would expect them to be awesome at. Racism and distrust is the counterweight to that.
Also many elf players LIKE rolelplaying that aspect of being an elf.  I absolutely love how elves are written in Arm/Darksun, I've never been able to enjoy playing them myself, save one Jaxa Pah Face I played when the tribe first opened, and I had to store him because of Real Life bitch-slapping me across the face.  But, I think the Jaxa Pah and their docs fit the Rinth and quite honestly was a near perfect fit for what the Eastide (and Allanak as a whole) needs in a city-elf tribe. The Hand, however, always rubbed me as forced and slightly off-pitch for the setting as a whole, but I've had the chance to play with some awesome elves out of the clan and greatly appreciate staff for the work they did with it.

Again, I don't play elves, but I love the concept, and I love playing around those well played (I've never seen more than a handful that I thought weren't).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally I think we should just do away with the forced racism nonsense and let elves be able to join clans.

Agreed. I'm fine with racism towards them and utter distrust, but to say that 40% of the cities' population is officially un-hirable no matter what is just wierd. Even black folks were able to find work in places they were not commonly thought to be allowed when they excelled at something.

But ooh well. Until then, city-elves will continue to be rarely encountered in any non-criminal way.

[FantasyWriter]

I would love to have elves as represented in the cities as they should be to balance out with humans... it would certainly be an.... interesting experience.

[Jingo]

Dwarves, muls, halfgiants, and gith too while we're at it?

By any metric, racism directed towards elves is much more extreme than any of the other races. If it was held at that level I would be fine. but it isn't. Racism in Zalanthas even goes further than the racial documentation would suggest.

City elves are codely awesome at the things one who reads the docs would expect them to be awesome at. Racism and distrust is the counterweight to that.

City elves are not codedly awesome. At best they're above average due to starting stats. But it's not the code I'm even concerned with though. But sure they sure were awesome before the wisdom nerf.

Also many elf players LIKE rolelplaying that aspect of being an elf.  I absolutely love how elves are written in Arm/Darksun, I've never been able to enjoy playing them myself, save one Jaxa Pah Face I played when the tribe first opened, and I had to store him because of Real Life bitch-slapping me across the face. 

I do too but trust me, it gets old fast. You eventually begin to notice that the discrimination takes an ooc tinge as well.

And just because it's a cool narrative concept doesn't mean its good when applied in a game setting. Right now, an elf has zero power base. There is nothing stopping Joe pc from scrub killing an elf when even the Templar can't give a damn. Ideally their power would be derived from the collectivism of elven tribes but staff seem to be having a hard time maintaining them.

Solution? Let them become useful to merchant house clans. When really the only reason they aren't allowed to play in these clans is "durrr racism durrrrr".

[racurtne]

Just to chime in on why elves seem to die a lot...

Many just push things too far. If your elf is OPENLY snide, condescending, and rude to the wrong people, you may just become a target. This is especially true if you also tend to flee from consequences. Characters will become increasingly frustrated that they can not strike at you in any other way, and eventually they or their friends will just decide to kill you. No one ICly cares if your elf dies, so it just makes the leap to killing that elf that much faster.

I feel I must reiterate something that I posted in reference to a different issue about longevity. You CAN play your character and NOT be open about how they feel, especially if this is going to lead to your untimely death. Sure, there should be small hints. Hemotes are great for this. I wouldn't hemote doing something that if seen would result in further escalation though. Don't give a covert middle-finger to a Templar, it isn't smart. Elves are smart.

It is NOT OOC for your elf to want to live, though, and if your elf thinks it's fun to piss off powerful people or their allies, he's gonna get dead sooner rather than later. If your elf wants to pull off a con, you better put in the thought as a player. Trying to openly hussle people in a bar isn't exactly a well-thought-out con.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that elves should probably be subtle, even in Allanak. Because otherwise you're going to get killed. When it's just elves talking, you can spout off about how stupid the round-ears are all you want. Unless you have a gang and a place to hide, doing so publicly is not a good idea. Being proud does not mean you walk up to people willing to kill you and spout off about how you are better. Trying to outwit and make fun of them in public is probably not so smart either. Being embarrassed will push people a lot more than private insults. At that point you've forced their hand. They're going to try to get you back for that. Even if you are codedly powerful, you will find that continuing to flaunt your successes only encourages more people to kill you. You're upsetting the social order at that point, and the elves have to be 'put in their place'.

The final thing is that something should be learned. This isn't just for elves, but for all characters. Did your character receive a severe beating? Instead of laughing it off because there was no coded consequences, perhaps your character should learn from it. Maybe they'll NOT laugh in that aide's face next time. The point is that every time you downplay a consequence short of death, you bring your character's death one step closer. The more you laugh at the beatings and insults, the more likely the next time your character will just be killed. "Who's laughing now?"

If your elf is good at what you do, you might want to brag to elves you trust. Bragging about criminal exploits or how you outwitted someone important in public is probably just going to paint a big target on your back.

As for elves needing a coded clan, I think that's true. I think that my advice still applies. The elves in those clans sometimes became targets because they thought they were above social rules because they had clan backing. Public behavior is public behavior. There are rules. Private behavior is much more fluid and adjusts based on many different factors. I felt like this simple truth was often forgotten, and it resulted in a lot of people gunning for them.

TL;DR
Just read the bold parts.

[Malken]

You know why elves are usually snide, condescending and rude? That's because they usually have a whole bunch of elf buddies watching their backs and hanging out with them, but that's not being represented ICly so the best we can do is play elf-lite and that's just frustrating because you are constantly outnumbered and you need to go to these public places to have some sort of interaction with other players (an elf would probably much rather stick to the rinthi taverns where it would be virtually full of other elves and others, but again, we play a mud to interact with other players) so they constantly put themselves at a disadvantage in the name of interaction. So to survive as an elf, you need to adapt a somewhat non-elf behavior and it's even more visible when you have absolutely no IC clans to join and you're stuck being a lone wolf which is, in my opinion, even worse than rp'ing an elf riding a mount.

[racurtne]

You know why elves are usually snide, condescending and rude? That's because they usually have a whole bunch of elf buddies watching their backs and hanging out with them, but that's not being represented ICly so the best we can do is play elf-lite and that's just frustrating because you are constantly outnumbered and you need to go to these public places to have some sort of interaction with other players (an elf would probably much rather stick to the rinthi taverns where it would be virtually full of other elves and others, but again, we play a mud to interact with other players) so they constantly put themselves at a disadvantage in the name of interaction. So to survive as an elf, you need to adapt a somewhat non-elf behavior and it's even more visible when you have absolutely no IC clans to join and you're stuck being a lone wolf which is, in my opinion, even worse than rp'ing an elf riding a mount.

Do you want riots in the streets? Because that's how you get riots in the streets.

I doubt elves would be snide, condescending, and rude even in larger groups. They are still a minority (and the one not in power) in a terribly racist world, and they should act like one. You're just going to have huge fights constantly if you really think that's how elves would act in public. If they did, it would quickly spiral out of control from bar fights to outright warfare in the streets until someone put the other in their place. I disagree that elves SHOULD be snide, condescending, and rude in public even in large groups. Lynch mobs would be right around the corner, followed by war in the streets if the elves were not cowed.

What I'm saying is that I don't think elven pride should be expressed this way, nor does it have to be.

[racurtne]

Another thing that could help is localized power. The rinth is a good example of this. The elves have a section where no humans and soldiers go. They are the power there. In a world where 40% of the population is made up of elves, there would probably be sections of the commoner's quarter or warrens where this was also the case. Soldiers might not avoid it completely, but they would certainly be much more cautious.

Power in areas is different from power in general. Elves might be able to say what they want in their neighborhood, but they aren't going to go out to a place where they are outnumbered and start trouble. It's ridiculous. If there's a football (soccer) game on in a bar and both teams are represented in the bar population but one has the clear advantage in numbers, that's not the one you start taunting.


But, you know, that's just my opinion, man.

[Malken]

You know why elves are usually snide, condescending and rude? That's because they usually have a whole bunch of elf buddies watching their backs and hanging out with them, but that's not being represented ICly so the best we can do is play elf-lite and that's just frustrating because you are constantly outnumbered and you need to go to these public places to have some sort of interaction with other players (an elf would probably much rather stick to the rinthi taverns where it would be virtually full of other elves and others, but again, we play a mud to interact with other players) so they constantly put themselves at a disadvantage in the name of interaction. So to survive as an elf, you need to adapt a somewhat non-elf behavior and it's even more visible when you have absolutely no IC clans to join and you're stuck being a lone wolf which is, in my opinion, even worse than rp'ing an elf riding a mount.

Do you want riots in the streets? Because that's how you get riots in the streets.

I doubt elves would be snide, condescending, and rude even in larger groups. They are still a minority (and the one not in power) in a terribly racist world, and they should act like one. You're just going to have huge fights constantly if you really think that's how elves would act in public. If they did, it would quickly spiral out of control from bar fights to outright warfare in the streets until someone put the other in their place. I disagree that elves SHOULD be snide, condescending, and rude in public even in large groups. Lynch mobs would be right around the corner, followed by war in the streets if the elves were not cowed.

What I'm saying is that I don't think elven pride should be expressed this way, nor does it have to be.

Nah, I mostly meant that elves wouldn't go where they are exposing themselves to a majority of racist murderers and would probably stick to their own gang turfs, but since this is a rp mud, elf pcs must expose themselves to said racism a lot more than they probably would in the reality of the world.

[Jingo]

Elven shit-talk means social chaos? I'm going to reject that notion without even addressing it.

Elven shit-talk = immediate dead elf? Elves arn't the ghettoized minority that many players and staff seem to think they are. They do actually have all the same rights as human citizens (that is to say none when the templar comes around). And killing one should earn the ire of said templars for the same reason it would for a human. Regardless of the trash talk involved.

[racurtne]

Way to over-simplify what I said and dismiss it.  

More discerning people might understand what I'm getting at. Even humans don't shit-talk to each other and expect it to be consequence-free. No one said immediate social chaos or dead elf. I said it would escalate to that point if that was the norm for elven behavior in majority-human areas. It makes no sense for you to walk into a human-dominated area and start pissing them all off unless you have a death wish. It's also dumb to start trouble with noble house employees if you are an independent human.

I thought this was common sense. I bet you played one of these elves who stuck blindly to their pride and got mad when it bit you in the rear for expressing that pride at the wrong time.

If 40% of the bar decides to taunt 60% of the bar, you can bet the 60% will retaliate in the form of a bar-fight at first. Perhaps the ringleaders of the trouble will be earmarked for more severe punishment. This is how a racist society operates. It operates on terrorizing the minorities into their "place". If the 40% continue to behave in this fashion, things will escalate again.  If the 40% decide they won't be treated this way and escalate as well, you then have social chaos. Someone has to back down eventually, and I'm going to bet it'll be the 40%. They'll probably start shutting up as the most outspoken begin to be singled out for severe punishment.

Also, ghettoized is different from segregated. Segregation if not institutionalized, most likely happens naturally. I highly suspect neighborhoods would be predominantly of one race. This isn't a ghetto, this is segregation, and is likely done by choice.

[Reiloth]

This is horribly off-topic...Maybe we should start an elf / elf background thread?

[Patuk]

I think it's telling that it's the people not playing elves who are saying thingd are fine as-is.

[Barsook]

This is horribly off-topic...Maybe we should start an elf / elf background thread?

Or ask the staff do split this one....

[racurtne]

For the record, I don't think things are fine as is. If someone is accusing me of saying that, they would be misrepresenting me. I gave some suggestions on how not to be targeted so much as an elf and why I thought behaving in this fashion does NOT fly in the face of present documentation.

I want elves to have tribes too, just don't expect them to be a license to do or say whatever you want without consequences. There are always consequences.

And with that, I'm done! If I get misinterpreted some more, so be it. 

[number13]

...or warrens where this was also the case.

There's a section of the warrens that's firmly under elven control, if you know how to find it. It's not well fleshed out, but it's there.

Concerning Tuluki elves, I can think of a few ways to counter the lack of open tribes, and still maybe roleplay elven bluster:

1: Get in the levies and suck up to a Faithful Lord. Your tribe is the Sun King tribe, the biggest, baddest tribe in the whole Known.

2: Get a patron. (can elves have patrons?  If half-breeds can have patrons, then it would be extremely silly if elves couldn't.)

3: Lie. Is there a merchant house position open to disgusting, filthy fucking breeds, but not elves? Congrats. You have the qualities to pass as a half-elf.  Maybe your direct boss knows you're an elf. If the NPC asshat in charge of your boss has anything to say about it, you're a half-elf. It's just that your other half is elf too.

4: Lie. What self-respecting elf would say, "I'm tribeless," to the round-eared rubes?  If someone is bashing you near or around the Warrens, point out that you have a thousand cousins lurking nearby.  If they're being really assholish about bashing your elveny self, just because your an elf, on or near elven grounds, wish up and try to call in the NPC elf brigade. Probably won't work, but on the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen Tuluki PC overtly heckle an elf just for being an elf (to the point where an NPC elf brigade might take an interest in knocking the round-ear down a peg).

Any case, if you need a safe-ish spot to hide after making rude gestures at a Kadian hunter, make sure you know your way around the Warrens. There's safe-ish spots to be found.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Let's just be real. The reason elves are not played very often isn't because they are not cool. It's because they don't have the options any other race barring muls do. And we play this game to have fun, even when we are dying in this world - playing an elf appears to be, for most people, an exercise in futility, in the cities.

For elves to be 40 percent of a population and not be hired by any round-ear clan but Kurac and the Byn borders on goofy. ICly, no, of course it doesn't ... but OOCly, yes, it does. And we can say, let's make fake tribes. Alright, sure, but that doesn't solve anything besides having a loose background relation to another city elf. It does absolutely nothing for the player's goals to be able to enjoy their elf.

And we could open elven tribes in the city, but we're already trying to consolidate instead of dilute - so while that helps elves, it helps nobody else unless the clan replaces a clan that is currently open, and then is placed to fill the same role or a new role which makes up for the lose of the role the closed clan held in terms of city politics.

I truly think the solution is to allow all GMHs and non-noble clans to hire elves, and to retro-actively adjust the documented attitude towards such a  thing. Period. Elves come with disadvantages from the jump due to not riding mounts and being weak, and there are already restrictions for the advancement of non-humans that very few non-humans will ever break.

But if we want to see more elves, and we should, because they are a viable and realistic portion of the cities, then you either change their playing environment, or you close them for play. And I don't want to see elves closed for play. I don't play elves, but I enjoy well-played elves.

[FantasyWriter]

Just curious, has anyone tried asking staff to make a family of elves recently?
It seems like the best step toward getting what the group of people in this discussion wants.

I think it could probably do a lot of good in Allanak, at least.
Again, I really don't "feel" elves in Tuluk as being enjoyable to play.
I can't see elves readily "registering" with the Templarate just to be able to provide for their tribe just because lesser races are dumb/slow enough to be so easily taken advantage of, for one.  It seems like a very un-elf thing to do for me.  Elves, in their minds at least, should be able to function independently of the other races, and even other tribes other than seeing them as marks/victims/tools/whatever.

[FantasyWriter]

There was a wisdom nerf for elves? I must have missed that one.

[Molten Heart]

An elven tribe would be great for Shadow artistry in Tuluk.

More city elf tribes in the game, even if very generic with little support would be nice... similar to what's been discussed at length in this thread about city elves.  Some of these ideas would probably work well in Tuluk too.

[number13]

Again, I really don't "feel" elves in Tuluk as being enjoyable to play.

I actually think Tuluk is a superior environment for elves, precisely because they can be recognized as valuable by the templars for doing elf-like things.

I can't see elves readily "registering" with the Templarate just to be able to provide for their tribe just because lesser races are dumb/slow enough to be so easily taken advantage of, for one.  It seems like a very un-elf thing to do for me.  Elves, in their minds at least, should be able to function independently of the other races, and even other tribes other than seeing them as marks/victims/tools/whatever.

There's just never going to be enough players to fill the c-elf roles required to make a functioning c-elf society.  There's aberrant times when there are enough c-elves roaming around, but that's the exception, not the rule.  You're not going to know (unless you check via OOC means) if eastside of the Rinth is hopping prior to entering and getting stuck as the only PC elf.

What you need is the ability for a solo c-elf or a small cadre of elves to be able to interact with the rest of the player base in a meaningful way, while retaining their elven identity. Meaning: they should not and cannot function independently of the other races. Ideally, it should be possible to play the game as the only c-elf active in a city, just as it's possible to play as the only PC dwarf, PC half-giant, or PC mul.

7DV is right in that it's absurd if  merchant houses don't hire c-elves, especially if they're open to hiring half-breeds.  Beyond that, Tuluk has the shadow artist system, the levy system, and patronage system -- all ways for the lone c-elf to become involved with the rest of the city's PCs.  I think it's a mistake pigeonhole all elves as nasty thieving bastards, or even entirely insular to their own culture. If they were utterly worthless to the workings of the city-states, they would be eradicated or exiled.

[CodeMaster]

In my experience, an elf can do just fine and be extremely fun and compelling to play with the current IC constraints in place.

Just because you can't be in the clan "House Kadius" doesn't mean you can't develop a reputation and contacts therein, and wield more power (albeit an 'amorphous' kind of power) than many PCs in that clan.

In other words, tribeless elves can fill the niche of being useful, no-strings-attached "mercenaries" that people can deny being affiliated with if things go wrong.  It's so, so cheesy, but I can see a city elf thinking like "The Plague" in the movie hackers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSbRJHsPvE

[Lizzie]

It's not because of "forced racism." It has nothing to do with racism. It has everything to do with the defined traits of elves as they exist in the Armageddon world.

In other words, people don't mistrust elves due to some "perception" of elves being thieves. They don't trust them, because elves ARE thieves. It's not a perception. It's a fact.

Elf/thief + Kadius/valueable stealable shit = really stupid idea.

Half-elves aren't KNOWN to be thieves, as a whole. Elves in Armageddon are known to be thieves. That's why GMHs make exceptions for half-elves. Not because they're better, but because they are less likely to start right out of the gate with their hands in the GMH's pocket/trunk/stables/backpack/footlockers.

[Molten Heart]

The foundation for racism towards elves is based on the fact that elves put their tribe before outsiders whom they view as untrustworthy resources to exploit for the benefit of their tribe (and themselves).