What does your half-elf do in the face of insult?

[Natterjack]

@ all the half-elf players out there, when you encounter racism, how does your character react?

i ask this question because natterjack had bunches of pride and was all hyped with misconceptions about his new life in the city ["meow no one's ever gonna treat me like shit again, i'm gonna start standing up for myself meow"], so he thought he could call someone a bigoted fuck after some derogatory comments from his peers. imagine his shock when he got half his face burnt off as consequence.

but hey, i was enlightened and learned an invaluable lesson from it as a player, which was you damn well better know your shit before you talk shit. granted, i was rp'ing, but it wasn't like i expected nat's bitching to be tolerated, lol. i want to know how everyone else who plays halflings deal with this sort of stuff, so i can get some variety in my own reactions.

<Rahnevyn redacted some stuff about a current PC.>

[LauraMars]

Hey!

First of all, kudos to you for sticking in character through a tough situation.  As we discussed on the helper chat, Zalanthas is a harsh world in which there is a definite hierarchy, and half elves occupy one of the lowest rungs of society.  How they deal with this is up to them, but you can definitely expect consequences if you don't bend your back and fall in line when you need to.  That said, conflict makes this game awesome - so if you want to stir up trouble, feel free!  It would be wise to have an exit strategy in place, or at least a bribe to hand out, when you do this though.

Secondly, there's lots of IC ("in character") information in this post.  One of the rules of this forum is that you don't talk about your current or future characters in detail, or the things that happen to them in the game.  It gives away who you're playing and can sometimes ruin plots, so I'd take out all mention of your characters in the post and just frame your questions generally in the future.

[Natterjack]

o: gotcha.

[RogueGunslinger]

My half-elves take it with acceptance. They know they are shit. They know they are the bottom of the rung. Any and all attempts to ascend should have them smashed under boot-heels. And you KNOW this, as a breed.

It shouldn't really go beyond a mild annoyance. You should be so used to it by now that there's no reason to be offended, or angry.

There are exceptions, of course. And I am certainly no expert on breeds, but I imagine you'd only every  talk back, or do something in the moment if you actually did manage to have a little bit of status. Like being a T'zai Byn Trooper or something. Otherwise you'd keep quiet while throwing all the insults you can behind their back or slipping some poison into their mug of ale.

[Lizzie]

Half-elves ARE abominations of nature. Mistakes that never should have been allowed to exist. They're not merely perceived as such. That is what they are, by definition. And all half-elves who are aware of their heritage, are also aware that they exist only because no one's gotten around to killing them yet. They behave however anyone who KNOWS that they're a mistake of genetics would behave, when someone reminds them that this is what they are.

I very strongly suggest the docs.  There's this:
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elves
and this
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elf%20Roleplay

You can also check for docs on any aspect of your new character. Things like "What your character knows" about the different city-states, roleplaying an elf, etc. etc.

In a previous thread you mentioned the game you came from. I can tell you it really is a whole lot different from there. That game isn't an RPI. It's a whole different genre - different code, different theme, different RP styles, different mechanics and in many cases, different syntax. Definitely a different sense of "immersion" and "reality." It's important to understand the theme of the game itself, and really really allow yourself to believe that the documentation is serious. The "murder, corruption, betrayal" and "harsh desert world" themes aren't just suggestions, and playing the "Underdog hero with a sense of fairness and truth and honesty" will usually die very quickly. This is a dog-eat-dog world. And if you are the underdog, you'd better keep your tail tucked and yield to the more powerful dog until such time as you become that more powerful dog.

And even then - at some point - you'll meet an even bigger dog who will chew you up and spit you out in pieces.

You can achieve this in a whole lot of ways, mostly through roleplay, supplemented with the code. Or, if you'd prefer, you can play that underdog, who remains that way, and get involved in things as a minion/lackey/tool/meat-shield. Don't feel like you have to have your character "win" in order to have fun in Arm. Sometimes the players of the scum of the rinth get involved in the coolest plotlines

[Morrolan]

Plot revenge. Engage in corruption and betrayal. Aim for murder.

You know, play Arm.

[MeTekillot]

What if your half-elf was born from the union of two half-elves??? are you 4x as breedy??

[slvrmoontiger]

What if your half-elf was born from the union of two half-elves??? are you 4x as breedy??

Maybe you made the 25 percent that is 4x humany.

[Jingo]

It's no bad roleplay to play a breed who tries not to take the shit that's given to him, even if he get's burned alive for it.

Just keep in mind that in the city states of Zalanthas anyone that goes against the grain usually does gets burned in some way or another.

[Desertman]

@ all the half-elf players out there, when you encounter racism, how does your character react?

i ask this question because natterjack had bunches of pride and was all hyped with misconceptions about his new life in the city ["meow no one's ever gonna treat me like shit again, i'm gonna start standing up for myself meow"], so he thought he could call someone a bigoted fuck after some derogatory comments from his peers. imagine his shock when he got half his face burnt off as consequence.

but hey, i was enlightened and learned an invaluable lesson from it as a player, which was you damn well better know your shit before you talk shit. granted, i was rp'ing, but it wasn't like i expected nat's bitching to be tolerated, lol. i want to know how everyone else who plays halflings deal with this sort of stuff, so i can get some variety in my own reactions.

<Rahnevyn redacted some stuff about a current PC.>

There are a few schools of thought here.

Personally I have seen the following all played pretty well:

The timid and downtrodden half-elf who is afraid of everyone and everything and almost all social interaction because they have been kicked their entire lives by their betters. They just want to get through their day without someone spitting on them. (Never played this one, but I've seen it done very well.)

The angry and bitter half-elf who hates the world and everyone in it because they have been kicked their entire lives by their betters, but they feel powerless to do anything about it. (Played this one before.)

The extremely self-sufficient and prideful half-elf who cuts off the feet of anyone who even tries to kick them. They understand they are abominations, but, you better believe abominations can swing swords too, and in their case, you better respect that fact. You don't have to respect them, but you will respect their abilities. (Played this one several times.)



The latter is really a harder way to go and I don't recommend it until you are a veteran player. Though this seems like what you were going for. You will almost always die early on if you go this route. You have to establish first your worth to your betters, and then you can take on the role of, "The half-elf who might be a breed, but you sure don't want to mess with him anyways.". Just remember that half of playing this role successfully is actually having your PC understand they are a worthless breed, and then working from that understanding in a way that allows them to continue to survive without having to take crap off of everyone all of the time. This doesn't mean you have to attack everyone who calls you a breed. It is more of a, "Say what you want, but you best keep it at words, because when it goes beyond words, you know who's going to win.", situation.

[Drayab]

I think calling them abominations is taking it too far in terms of typical attitudes, but they certainly occupy the lowest rung of society based on their race alone. They're often targets for bullying, as you have learned. Why? Because they are easy targets. Here are some broad statements that I have found to be generally true.

• Half elves don't have friends. You don't mess with people that have a posse, and a loner half elf doesn't have one.
• The templarate cares even less than usual if something bad happens to a half elf.
• They are a living, breathing manifestation of the socially unacceptable (putting it mildly) act of elf on human mating. Therefore, it's so easy to insult them, even a half-giant could do it. And you can be pretty sure everybody around will agree that, yep, that breed is really gross.
• Most of them are just going to take it - they know just as well as you do that nobody cares when you shit on them.

So, they might be used to it. They might grit their teeth and bear it. They might plot the demise of their tormentors in private, but when a breed mouths off, there is a kind of oh no he di'int moment where everybody wonders who will teach the uppity breed how to behave.

[slvrmoontiger]

Also you have to remember ANY race that isn't human is considered a second class citizen, period. Some races some to be "tolerated" more than others, usually pure-breed of dwarfs and depending on the situation elves. Though elves are still though of dirty, thieving, manipulating, backstabbers.

Breeds and muls are at the bottom of the food chain so to speak. They are picked on and don't have friends and need to find their own way of how they choose to exist as existence for them is very difficult.

[solera]

Breeds and muls are at the bottom of the food chain so to speak. They are picked on and don't have friends and need to find their own way of how they choose to exist as existence for them is very difficult.

I wouldn't sit down to  a drink with a mek or a mul, but I wouldn't piss them off, either.

[Narf]

Breeds and muls are at the bottom of the food chain so to speak. They are picked on and don't have friends and need to find their own way of how they choose to exist as existence for them is very difficult.

I don't think people typically pick on muls.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yep, was gonna say that. Muls, right out of chargen, are scary. Picking on one seems ... uh ... dangerous.

[Delirium]

Odd urge: mul named Hulk.

[ShaLeah]

Muls are definitely NOT at the bottom of the food chain. They are so, sooooo valuable that creating them is HIGHLY controlled. They are the highest sought after combat slave and the midst dangerous sentient creatures in the Known.

Only an idiot dares fuck with them.

Breeds on the other hand? Most worthless.

[slvrmoontiger]

Right sorry let me restate that... Breeds are picked on. Muls are feared... But both are still considered trash even if muls are valued for their combat ability.

[Delirium]

Muls are definitely not considered trash. Dangerous, yes. Unstable, yes. Trash? No.

[Brytta Léofa]

Right sorry let me restate that... Breeds are picked on. Muls are feared... But both are still considered trash even if muls are valued for their combat ability.

I think seeing a mul as "trash" would be rare. Muls really aren't people. Enslaved muls are machine tools: expensive and a pain to replace. People aren't friends with tools and don't ask them for advice. If your tool makes funny noises, you consult the service manual and replace the faulty bondmate. (Picking on one, unless you're a qualified technician, is like sticking your fingers in the machine.)

Escaped muls are monsters.

[Cale_Knight]

I don't have much to contribute to the topic at hand but I wanted to give Natterjack mucho props for doing what Arm is all about: dying horribly and then making a new character. Welcome aboard, and many happy returns!

[ShaLeah]

Muls are definitely not considered trash. Dangerous, yes. Unstable, yes. Trash? No.

Delirium is 100% correct. So is Brytta.

I can't reiterate enough that THAT mindset, of muls being trash, is soooo against the norm that if I ever heard that shit spoken IG it'd jar me to the point of breaking character to educate if handling it IC'ly wasn't working.

Now, if your Momma was a whore in the rinth and got raped by a stump then died giving birth to your brother/sister mul and you murdered it after helping her and watching her bleed out, sure, hate them, persecute them, but as a general mindset, trash is far from what anyone thinks.

[manonfire]

Muls are not seen as 'trash'. I dunno what game you're playing. While they're certainly not treated as equals, they aren't looked down upon either.

They're expensive, temperamental pieces of equipment. Insanely productive, high-maintenance, and liable to rip an arm off if you don't know what you're doing.

Sort of like a Ducati Panigale 1199R.

[Narf]

Muls are definitely not considered trash. Dangerous, yes. Unstable, yes. Trash? No.

Now, if your Momma was a whore in the rinth and got raped by a stump then died giving birth to your brother/sister mul and you murdered it after helping her and watching her bleed out, sure, hate them, persecute them, but as a general mindset, trash is far from what anyone thinks.

Or potentially if you're playing some backwater hick, then I think it'd be okay. Muls aren't created outside of the two major population centers. People from Red Storm and Luirs and the little villages aren't going to know about all the blood and sweat and tears and pouring over a hot stump that Borsail has to do to make a mul.

So yeah, I could see an outlander making the mistake of treating a mul like trash too.

[ShaLeah]

Muls are definitely not considered trash. Dangerous, yes. Unstable, yes. Trash? No.

Now, if your Momma was a whore in the rinth and got raped by a stump then died giving birth to your brother/sister mul and you murdered it after helping her and watching her bleed out, sure, hate them, persecute them, but as a general mindset, trash is far from what anyone thinks.

Or potentially if you're playing some backwater hick, then I think it'd be okay. Muls aren't created outside of the two major population centers. People from Red Storm and Luirs and the little villages aren't going to know about all the blood and sweat and tears and pouring over a hot stump that Borsail has to do to make a mul.

So yeah, I could see an outlander making the mistake of treating a mul like trash too.

People in those places DO know that muls there are owned by Kurac or free, and ALL free muls were once slaves. I don't agree that they'd think that. Prejudice and superiority are taught. How can you be taught that muls are trash if you live somewhere where there are none and don't know any better?

Delves I can see, since they think everyone is trash. Heh.

[Brytta Léofa]

I'm sure that "freak" or "abomination of nature" is in the mix. But "let the wookie win" still applies.

[slvrmoontiger]

abomination is a term heavily used for 'gickers in the north. Calling a non-'gicker breed this just doesn't fit.

[Rahnevyn]

Tuluk has no trademark on the term abomination. If you want to call a half-elf, or anything, an "abomination of nature", you can. How you're interpreted will probably depend on who you're talking to.

[Jeax]

@ all the half-elf players out there, when you encounter racism, how does your character react?

For whatever reason, I enjoy playing half-elves.

Typically, I have played two sorts of half-elves:

Those who know they are trash, so they just deal with it if someone is talking down to them and keep rolling, almost ignoring the person.
Those who get depressed by being put down, as if a reminder to who they are and then get in a funk about how nobody will ever love/want them.

Most of the half-elves I've played have been disguised as humans, but some people have figured it out or been told, etc.

[Kalai]

Desire to be accepted, desire to be independent, dash of elven pride, tempered by experience. Dash of elven trickery, dash of human shallowness.

Desire to be accepted + experience: Accept, don't speak up, agree, acknowledge, even join in, joke about it. Disparage own place in life, disparage elves with humans, humans with elves. Deal with the prejudice by rejecting yourself as well - I use my own early reaction to internalized misogyny as something of a model: hating girly things just because they were female-coded.
(A breed preferring human company might loathe thievery and be steadfastly meticulous in their dealings to prove beyond a doubt they are unelfy, while in other areas slipping a hand under the table and rationalizing it as not actually stealing, no one will miss it, no one will notice, just this one time to survive, they're just being smart or clever, the person deserved it, how am I going to do my job otherwise, hmm honestly that was a really neat and clever way for that elf to steal from me wait no oh god why do I love this so much.)

Desire to be independent+elven pride: Hate it. Hate it with a burning fiery passion, say nothing, bear a grudge, prove them wrong. Everyone thinks you're worse than them, but damn it, you're smarter than any roundear, and you're not a shiftless parasite like those thieving neckers. It's understandable that they'd associate you with the verminous qualities of your other half - but truth is you're better than both of them, and you're goddamn well going to be the best, because you've got to prove yourself against the worst expectations. You don't need their approval, and they must be in bed with Whira to have gotten yours.

Trickery+shallowness: Use it to your advantage to manipulate everyone, including friends and family. Be underestimated. Be discounted. Overpay without complaining, acknowledge the superiority of those around you, know your place, massage egos. Secretly fix the game and watch with glee as your goals are accomplished with no one even suspecting your influence, because what could a breed do anyway?

Might also be some trauma reaction depending on how close to home the insult hits, breed's background, how well or poorly they've dealt with the situation previously ... breed who's taken a beating for mouthing off is going to have more issues than one who learned earlier and less painfully how to keep themselves relatively safe.

[slvrmoontiger]

I've played numerous breeds and they vary from character to character as have my half-giant, humans, elves, I think I even had a dwarf once. Was never able to play a halfling, mantis, gith, or mul though.

I'm played half-elves that were half-elf coded and ones that were human coded. I've played ones that didn't know they were half-elves and ones that did. There's a wide scope of what you can do with half-elves. Though they all are crazy in some manner or another, no matter how hard they try to hide it or they all have bad experiences. They all want to be accepted and loved. They all get scared when they are accepted and loved. There's something internal regardless of their knowledge that makes them this way because of the mixing of the blood of humans and elves... At least this is how I interpret the help documents. It also all depends on how you want to play it on how easily it will be for others to detect things. Can make it slight and private or can make it right in everyone's face about how breedy they are.

But regardless half-elves are pretty much at the bottom of the barrel in the society structure no matter where you're playing.

[Fujikoma]

I have to go with the your PC making fun of themselves part of it. While I've received criticism (your breed wants to be accepted and reminding everyone your breed is a breed is counter-productive), I've found it the best way to diffuse the situation, especially if it gets a laugh. It's hard to make fun of someone very well if they've just ceased the upper hand by coming up with a better slight than you can, and it satisfies that sense of elven superiority your breed might or might not have lurking under the surface. The worst you can expect is someone just scoffing and shaking their head. Another method is to just withdraw, maybe you were having a pleasant and productive conversation before the bad stuff starts, and people will learn, hey, if I want to get something out of this fellow maybe I should wait until I've ripped him off for his goods -before- I start with the insults. As with anything, make yourself useful enough and people just may stop altogether, may.

Then when they stop making fun of you, or worse, praise you, you don't know how to handle it and breed out on their ass and send everything back to what it was. Why are they being so nice? They must be plotting something. I'll show them! I'm no idiot! Good old fashioned elven paranoia (not so unhealthy, despite what it looks like at first glance). The most important thing to keep in mind is that all other PCs think you're trash no matter what they may say or do, if they're being mean then all is normal, if nice then something is up. How your PC reacts is largely up to you, but if you react improperly, above your PC's station, you can expect something bad to happen. It's a fun and delicate balancing act that keeps things exciting.

All that said, I think breeds are, hands down, the best, codedly and mentality-wise to play, but that's just a personal preference, and I'm a hapless newb.

[Desertman]

Just chiming in to say it always bothers me to see the half-elves with the "inherited" elven superiority complex.

Elves do not gain this superiority complex due to the fact they have magic elven blood that forces them to have this trait. They gain it due to the fact most elves have grown up with other elves (almost all are tribal, even in the city) who have taught them that elves are "better" than roundears and breeds. This is not a genetic trait. It is a learned personality trait. It can not be passed genetically on to half-elves from elven parents.

Elves who were not raised by other elves may not even posses this trait due to this.

This reminds me of the half-elf I once saw who roleplayed he didn't know he was a half-elf, and then heard an elf speaking allundean and was all like, "Oh no, why do I understand allundean? Does this mean I am a half-elf?"

I couldn't even bring myself to OOC to this player that you don't gain magic languages just by having elf blood in your veins. I would assume you don't gain magic personality traits by having elf blood either. It is the affects of being raised in elven culture that give you elven personality traits.

The reason breeds are "emo" and emotionally "broken" isn't because this trait is a magic property of half-elven blood, it is a reflection of how they have grown up in the world of Zalanthas and the affects that racist society has had on them.

It would be completely possible, in theory, if you could get it approved, to play a half-elf who was raised in a tribe completely cut off from society that never experienced any sort of racism typical in Zalanthas and thus they would not have any emotional problems. (They would almost surely gain them if they ever left their secluded tribe and were exposed to the typical racist Zalanthan cultures though.) You don't gain personality traits on pc's due to genetics, you gain them due to typical cultural influences based on growing up in the world of Zalanthas.


If I am wrong, staff, please feel free to let me know. But I have always played it this way.

Edited to Add:

There could possibly be an exception to the rule in regards to dwarves and their foci. But that does seem almost supernatural in nature, and could have nothing to do with genetic inheritance and could instead be a product of the nature of the existence of dwarves.

The more I think about that, I realize the existence of dwarf foci could mean I may have just shit all over my entire logic-chain in this post.

[Drayab]

Yup. This reminds me of a particular tidbit from the half elf helpfile.

Half-elves are somewhat solitary types, and many spend most of their time out in the desert. They are rumoured to have a special rapport with beasts of all kinds, but whether this is true or not, or if it is due to something innate in their nature or simply because they spend a lot of time with their mounts, is a matter of light debate.

I would also argue the nurture side of the debate, especially when it comes to language. 

[Desertman]

Yup. This reminds me of a particular tidbit from the half elf helpfile.

Half-elves are somewhat solitary types, and many spend most of their time out in the desert. They are rumoured to have a special rapport with beasts of all kinds, but whether this is true or not, or if it is due to something innate in their nature or simply because they spend a lot of time with their mounts, is a matter of light debate.

I would also argue the nurture side of the debate, especially when it comes to language. 

The whole dwarven focus thing really just throws my entire logic chain for a loop here.

If I find out I've been writing my backgrounds on my half-elves to fit their starting languages/skills/abilities this entire time and I could have just said, "Herp derp, they got the magic half-elf blood so no explanation needed for their abilities and personalities.", I am going to be less than pleased.

[Delirium]

Definitely figure out a reason why your half-breed knows what they know. Or have allundean removed.

It'd be nice if there was an option to choose between sirihish or allundean as your primary starting language.

On topic - half-elves are hard to do right. Playing a half-elf very well can be an emotionally draining experience. Never allow them to be happy.

If you have a happy half-elf something is wrong. Even if they achieve everything they ever wanted (or thought they wanted) they should not be happy. There should be an empty place that can't ever be filled. Something is still wrong. Something is still missing. They're never good enough.

Half-elves that react with bravado to insults is theoretically possible but feels jarring. This is a downtrodden race that is used to being treated like shit.

[MeTekillot]

Half-elves are genetically predispositioned to the acceptance/independent tango, but that is the only thing the docs specify as an inherited personality trait.

[Desertman]

If you have a happy half-elf something is wrong. Even if they achieve everything they ever wanted (or thought they wanted) they should not be happy. There should be an empty place that can't ever be filled. Something is still wrong. Something is still missing. They're never good enough.

You just described my day to day existence IRL.

[Kalai]

Half-elves are exposed to elven culture and may embrace parts of it. See: (Half) knowing the Allundean language. (Genetically learning a language is pretty silly.)

Though for nature vs nurture, let me ask this: Would an elf raised completely outside of the influence of other elves be willing to ride (mounts/wagons/etc)? This behavioral trade is explicitly a derivative of pride in their abilities; consequently, if your answer is 'no, they would not', then there is at least some component of their racial pride that is nature. Furthermore, the fact every tribe has this behavior, when elven tribes are highly distinct from and often not on good terms with each other, is fairly compelling.

Regardless, half-elves do have an element of pride explicitly stated in their racial docs, a pride in self-reliance. This is a result of their treatment, but there's no reason for it to mean they accept they are worthless. Certain parts may be internalized, but the typical half-elven reaction to abuse is to pursue independence and prove they don't need their detractors in the first place - then when the pendulum shifts back towards wanting acceptance, to go out of their way and into danger to prove they are in fact worthwhile parts of society.

It's this tension that makes half-elves quite interesting: They have no identity, but they crave it. They are rejected, so they reject others more - may be the misanthropes racist against both their parent races, convinced they are the only sane man in the world. They are abused, and driven to prove themselves for it. They are hurt, often, to the point any friendly word is mistrusted. They see slight and insult where there may have been none meant.

If you're a half-elf who's grown up in civilization, you're treated like trash. You're used to it, expect it, and if the documentation is to be believed, are often angered and hurt by it. Humans think of you as untrustworthy filth, neckers think of you as weak and tribeless - easy victims, in other words. It's had a profound effect on your personality. Driven you to become self-reliant, given you a craving for acceptance, but forced you to reject others before they reject you, just to survive.

Interpretation is very individual for a group with no culture of its own ... maybe it hurts like krath, to the point you get nervous breakdowns interacting with others, and consequently flee a social situation that becomes too intense. Maybe there's a bitter acceptance, brooding anger, that occasionally explodes at the expense of your meager possessions or fellow downtrodden room-mates. Maybe you see it as a challenge, striving to survive and prove yourself with pride and confidence.

[Kalai]

On topic - half-elves are hard to do right. Playing a half-elf very well can be an emotionally draining experience. Never allow them to be happy.

If you have a happy half-elf something is wrong. Even if they achieve everything they ever wanted (or thought they wanted) they should not be happy. There should be an empty place that can't ever be filled. Something is still wrong. Something is still missing. They're never good enough.

Heh ... think you might be describing the human condition there...

There's no real reason half-elves can't be happy, and achieving everything you ever wanted isn't the key to happiness in the first place, nor does happiness mean fulfillment. Half-elves do not have racial chronic depression. They have racial trauma, and this impacts them severely, and can cause unhappiness and lack of fulfillment ... or drop someone down into depression ...

... but happiness isn't a binary state. A mind's more complex than 'content / discontent'. A half-elf who's just achieved something amazing and can't wait to share it with everyone? They might be on top of the world, even if the natural result of sharing it is ridicule, compliments mistrusted and hence withdrawn from, and generally a drop in mood. A half-elf alone with their mount, not having to deal with issues of prejudice and acceptance, but not quite alone? They might be in a rare moment of peace, and have no weight on their mind at the time.

Would say, a half-elf can be happy. What they aren't, is long satisfied. The sense of something missing is a good one ... a human one too, but that just makes it a fair reference for us.

[Desertman]

Though for nature vs nurture, let me ask this: Would an elf raised completely outside of the influence of other elves be willing to ride (mounts/wagons/etc)?

They absolutely would. If they were raised/brainwashed to believe riding mounts was fine from birth and never heard anything to the contrary, they would ride mounts. The real question is, would staff approve the concept for actual play? Hmm. Almost certainly not, simply because it would be too jarring and this is a game that depends on a fair amount of environmental control.

A played a half-elven child once who was raised by desert elves. He looked elven enough to pass as an elf, and his mother was ashamed she kanked a roundear. It was commonly accepted that my halfbreed was "sick" and couldn't "run", so he was allowed by his tribe to ride a mount, even though he truly believed and his entire tribe (with the exception of his skank mom) truly believed he was an elf.

This is pretty compelling evidence that elves taught to accept riding is "ok" will in fact accept that riding is "ok". It just isn't a widely approved, if almost never concept.

[Delirium]

Rare moments of contentment or happiness, sure. But I don't see it lasting, and I see it being inevitably poisoned by the ever present qualifier: "for a half-elf."  That emotional imbalance and independance/neediness should always flavor your PCs behaviors and thoughts no matter what. Otherwise you're more or less playing a human with insecurity issues and higher wis/agi stats.

[spicemustflow]

I generally agree with D-man, however, I am of the opinion that elven mindset is borderline (if not fully) psychopathic and as such, having superiority complex is part of the package. Ask any elf what tribe is the best in the whole world and it will be his tribe, even if they survive by eating from garbage piles.

[Jeax]

As for a half-elf being happy or content, I think they can be happy or content, but they should not ever be comfortable in their skin beyond just this kind of feeling of "ah, I could live like this." sort of feeling I think. For this, places like Luir's Outpost or Red Storm come to mind...or just living out in the wilds by themselves. Possibly even a magicker that primarily hangs out by themselves in a temple. But in any setting (even completely alone) you are going to be reminded of why you are in your circumstances, and that's because nobody wants you. I would say that a half-elf should never be proud of themselves.

I generally agree with D-man, however, I am of the opinion that elven mindset is borderline (if not fully) psychopathic and as such, having superiority complex is part of the package.

I do not think they are psychopathic...that means they have no impulse control along with a myriad of other things. This is not the case with elves. They are proud, yes, of their tribe, and of themselves, usually, too. But this would not necessarily extend to a half-elf. Especially since a half-elf even if raised in an elven tribe, would not be allowed to partake in the tribal pride, so they would constantly feel like the odd man out.

And I guess to add to this, the only way a half-elf could feel these ways was if they passed as a human or an elf...but as soon as that cover was blown, this would all be shattered. And inside, they would know that they were faking, even if people did not realize it. So again, probably not allowed to be too proud of themselves.

[spicemustflow]

I generally agree with D-man, however, I am of the opinion that elven mindset is borderline (if not fully) psychopathic and as such, having superiority complex is part of the package.

I do not think they are psychopathic...that means they have no impulse control along with a myriad of other things. This is not the case with elves. They are proud, yes, of their tribe, and of themselves, usually, too.

Well, one does not need to tick every box in the psycho list to qualify. Elves do exhibit that myriad of other things, such as seeing outsiders as lesser beings (or even objects), extreme thrill seeking behavior, grandiose sense of self etc. I do think they have worse problem with impulse control than many other races.

Now, which of those traits are passed to a particular breed is difficult to say, especially considering that breeds don't live in cultures that encourage and praise such behaviors.

[Kalai]

I would say that a half-elf should never be proud of themselves.
...
So again, probably not allowed to be too proud of themselves.

Docs do say otherwise:
"...half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait."
"...But with the short-term goal met, the need for acceptance will kick in. The half-elf will return to society, fresh with the tales and fruits of their labor. At this point, they will do anything to make others appreciate what they have done."

A given half-elf is likely enough to be an insistent braggart who thinks he's above relying on anyone else. Compensating for insecurities, sure, but legitimately proud, yeah. 

[Morrolan]

The extremely self-sufficient and prideful half-elf who cuts off the feet of anyone who even tries to kick them. They understand they are abominations, but, you better believe abominations can swing swords too, and in their case, you better respect that fact. You don't have to respect them, but you will respect their abilities. (Played this one several times.)

Hear, hear.

"As your leader, I encourage you from time to time, and always in a respectful manner, to question my logic. If you're unconvinced that a particular plan of action I've decided is the wisest, tell me so, but allow me to convince you and I promise you right here and now, no subject will ever be taboo.

"Except, of course, the subject that was just under discussion. The price you pay for bringing up either my Sharp or 'Nakki heritage as a negative is... I collect your fucking head. Just like this fucker here.

"Now, if any of you sons of bitches got anything else to say, now's the fucking time!"

[RogueGunslinger]

I love that scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDCDmchtTg

[Harmless]

The union of a human and an elf is an unlikely thing, which is only made more likely by negative circumstances, such as desperate whoring, rape, or worse.

Although half-breeds are people, sort of, the topic of where they came from, who they really are, should, from time to time, disgust ANYONE. That includes the half-breed themselves, their closest friends, and if the even more unlikely were to occur, their lovers.

The topic of what a half-breed is should arise pretty frequently. It should be hard to forget about a half-breed's heritage. It should be only a little easier if the half-breed looks fully human or fully elven.

Therefore, most everybody should be disgusted by the presence of half-elves, frequently. This doesn't mean it should destroy existing friendships, or that bonds can't be formed over and above that fact, but the fact that a half-breed is, in fact, a half-breed, that is, someone who never should have existed, someone who will inevitably always suffer for being what they are (and often, inadvertently bring that suffering to their closest loved ones as well), and someone who will likely fail at being either human or elven and can therefore never fully be either, should constantly come into play and influence their decisions and interactions.

The effect of their race should be to instill some kind of emotional reaction. Hate is one. But so is sorrow, pity, evoked loneliness, fear, distrust, disgust, and so on. The emotion should be negative, at least in part. If someone were to love a half-elf, then they should have love tinged with one of the above. If someone were to love a half-elf BECAUSE they are a half elf, then that person would be seen as completely mad.

[ShaLeah]

If someone were to love a half-elf BECAUSE they are a half elf that that person is mad a degenerate and all his/her human/elf friends should kill the breed and him/her for their slight.

FTFY

[solera]

Elves are different to humans in most things. Is disgust the right word to use? Breeds are very useful (and disposable). Disgust that one of theirs has lain with a human, or just a joke that they've caused more angst amongst the silly round ears?

[Patuk]

Elves are different to humans in most things. Is disgust the right word to use? Breeds are very useful (and disposable). Disgust that one of theirs has lain with a human, or just a joke that they've caused more angst amongst the silly round ears?

I'd wager this depends on whether or not the breed'd parent would be from your tribe or not. If the breed has no ties to you then sure, it can be a funny joke. If it is tied to you in some way, anger and outrage are much more likely to follow.

[Clavis]

stick a boot in the loudmouths face, then go find a roundear to sleep with....... that's always fun when playing a half-ear. Just like has been said have to wait a little bit before doing this.

I miss my half-elf... he was fun to play, specially with the crowd that I played with. As for mul's well have your half-elf beat a few of them and people will step back away from him. uuuuuugggg going to have to roll up a half ear some time this century.

who wants to get ate fiiiiirst?

[MeTekillot]

That is a bad example to set for normal half-elven behavior.

[Jingo]

Says who?

[RogueGunslinger]

Humans fucking half-elves is so fucking weird to me. I can only think it's oocly motivated.

The other way around though, what half-elf wouldn't want some lovin'?

[MeTekillot]

Says who?

If every half-elf reacted to every insult with an attempted boot to the instigator's face, then attempted to go out for some roundear tail, there would soon be no half-elves left.

[Fujikoma]

Half-breeds are the greatest things in game, IMO... My next character will certainly be one. Too much fun to let the rest of you have it all.

[manonfire]

Half-breedsHG Rukkians are the greatest things in game

Fixed this for you.

[Fujikoma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebAKoRcYFTA

[Patuk]

Incidentally, because it is relevant..

[Fujikoma]

I would totally kank an orc IRL.

[Jingo]

Says who?

If every half-elf reacted to every insult with an attempted boot to the instigator's face, then attempted to go out for some roundear tail, there would soon be no half-elves left.

If that half-elf was a kuraci outrider, the instigator better expect more than just a boot to the face.

Not to say that it would be bad for a random city-dwelling half-elf to start a fight over being insulted. It's not in the doc's so it's completely free form.

Honestly people, stop trying to put your play preferences on other people.

[Drayab]

If that half-elf was a kuraci outrider, the instigator better expect more than just a boot to the face.

The half-elf Kuraci outrider hardly represents the typical half-elf. When we're talking about half-elf norms, we're talking about the half-elf that only depends on himself, the half-elf without a posse.

Not to say that it would be bad for a random city-dwelling half-elf to start a fight over being insulted. It's not in the doc's so it's completely free form.

Saying it's completely free form takes it a step too far. Every player is free to play against social norms, but those norms are still overseen by staff. Some aspects of the culture are not up for debate, such as the fact that typical half-elves are solitary, independent, social outcasts.

Honestly people, stop trying to put your play preferences on other people.

The whole point of this thread is to ask other people's opinion on the matter so... ?

[Jingo]

Saying it's completely free form takes it a step too far. Every player is free to play against social norms, but those norms are still overseen by staff. Some aspects of the culture are not up for debate, such as the fact that typical half-elves are solitary, independent, social outcasts.

It's completely free form within the guidelines spelled out by the documentation. As for culture? I've been playing this game for over ten years and the in game cultures has shifted substantially during those times. It's never been a set in stone thing. And even if we agree that the "culture" would frown on a half-elf acting out, it doesn't mean that the player can't choose to play the character that way. Since even with established norms, deviant behavior is commonplace.

The whole point of this thread is to ask other people's opinion on the matter so... ?

It annoys me when players rag on other players about their play because their conception of the game world is so rigid.

[RogueGunslinger]

Look guys, it's this debate again!



(gif courtesy of Brytta)

[Jingo]

It keeps coming up for a reason, I think.

[lordcooper]

How would a typical half-half react to an insult?

[FreeRangeVestric]

By ankle-biting, and then crying about how socially ostracized it is later, if I'm understanding the new racial dynamics correctly.

I'm just glad we finally got rid of those damned dorfs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

"Phuk. Off."

-dorf

[Inks]

Plot revenge while listening to Nirvana or somesuch. Cut up IG.

[path]

From a human perspective, I have a difficult time reviling half-elves more than elves. Elves would be at the top of my list of abhorrently disgusting creations. They've infiltrated our cities, leach off our culture, our assets, insinuating themselves among us. They have these awful, elongated bodies and they pride themselves on the skills most cultures agree are adverse to community spirit. They're utterly disgusting, creeping about, dragging their long, coin-greedy fingers through the air.

I avoid them and interacting with them.

Half elves I feel a little more comfortable openly shunning. They're awful because they're a mating between a human and THAT. Whether by force or, unthinkably, choice, they should never exist. So when I deal with them I keep in mind that they're certainly the manifest product of an act of rape and shouldn't exist and treat them accordingly.

As a half-elf, if I can hide as a human, I never tell. Anyone. Ever. If I'm openly a half-elf, I take what's dished out and try to stick to places where the disgusting truths behind my existence can be occasionally overlooked. I've never played a half-elf who appears elven, but I imagine the same applies in reverse.

[Kol]

Accept it, it's probably true anyway. Add it to the litany of derogatory crap you already are.

[Lizzie]

Somewhat how Kol says. I accept it, because it's true. But I react to that ownership however I react to all the other truths about my existence. If I'm emo, it adds to my emoness. If I chin-up and take it like a champ, then I chin-up like the champ I am. Or anything else inbetween. It could be "I suck, why don't I just die, I'm too much of a coward to kill myself, woah is me pity sob whine." Or it could be "yeah I'm a lousy half-neck stinkin piece of shit, and I'mma pop my boot in your ass for reminding me of it."

[Dakota]

it adds to my emoness.

I just wanted to quote this...

[long live miley cyrus]

My half-elf's just glad they didn't get punched in the face until unconscious, waking up later to find that their money is gone and a dead lizard has been tied to their hair with a string.

[Fujikoma]

Pick the lock on their apartment door and shit in their boots.

[Kalai]

My half-elf's just glad they didn't get punched in the face until unconscious, waking up later to find that their money is gone and a dead lizard has been tied to their hair with a string.

On occasion, mine are disappointed, rather than glad, of this. ... Verbatim, yes. With the dead lizard and string included, yes.