Is Zalahantas Globe or Flat?

[Koala]

Is Zalahantas Globe or Flat?

It would be great fun if someone finds out a way to far west by just travelling through east. I think even if it is the case, it is hardly a possibility for someone "alive" to figure it out.

[Eru]

I think it is flat.  And it should not be too hard to figure it out, provided, there are at least two people who are curious in this.  

How can it be figured out?  

Well, given one of the characters is stable, the other one moves away, far to the east or west or whatever.  Then, the steady one watches the sky, for the movement of the sun.  At the beginning of an hour, s/he contacts the other one via the Way, saying an hour is past.  If the other character also sees a time shift, then the world is flat, everybody experince the same time.  If the shift in the hour is delayed, then the world is globe.

[Carnage]

Globe. Didn't Venomz point out in another post that the time between Allanak and Tuluk was slightly different?

Second, keep in mind that the Known World is a tiny fraction of the planet. From the documents:

While enormous in its own right, the Known World probably consists of no more than a small fraction of the total size of the world.

[crymerci]

Zalanthas is a spherical planet. The sun rises on one horizon and sets on the opposite one.

The Known World is flat, in the sense that you cannot walk east and end up at the western edge, because, as Carnage noted, the Known World is not the entirety of the planet.

[Lazloth]

Globe. Didn't Venomz point out in another post that the time between Allanak and Tuluk was slightly different?

I personally do not believe this to be true, but have had no IC cause to ever explore the answer.   Additionally, I would not lay faith in any number of the Zalanthan populace to have any understanding of rudimentary astrophysics, outside of the random Tuluki stargazer or tribal.

[DrunkenSalarr]

The answer differs depending on who is asked:

Me, as a Player of Armageddon and non-inhabitant of Zalanthas, I would say that Zalanthas is infact globe shaped, though I do not believe this has been coded into the game, yet. (keep in mind I really have no clue as to the truth of this)

To the well educated Zalanthan (Noble or Templar who gives a shit),  The answer would depend on what research has been done, but the majority of them would probably believe that it is flat, or not be able to say one way or another.

To Every Other inhabitant of the Know World, the answer would be something along the lines of "Who gives a Flyin Shap?"  Most people would not care, nor would they have any real reason to.

[creeper386]

Honestly... I think the main reason that question came up, is all the water that was out there. When, your surrounding by very dangerous terrain on all sides... And lifes hard enough on the inside yet alone just up and exploring... Most people aren't really going to find the time, or if they did, they'd think about more important things.

Nobles and such, I don't think the question came up, because they are secure in their power, they have a higher power backing them. And even in the small known world they have ALOT of room to gain much more power. They have not that much reason to want to explore beyond the Known World.

But thats just me.


Any Hoo... Rum doesn't taste good, but rum and coffee is really good.


Creeper

[Anonymous]

To the well educated Zalanthan (Noble or Templar who gives a shit),  The answer would depend on what research has been done, but the majority of them would probably believe that it is flat, or not be able to say one way or another.

Considering how (presumably) unadvanced Zalanthan astronomy is, I wonder if the concept of a planet would even exist to them.  The known world would be their entire universe.

[Angela Christine]

Ok, so the general consensus is that it -isn't- a disk on the back of a turtle swimming through space?  Bummer.

Anyway, I believe Zalanthas is a regular planet.  The known world is a tiny part of that planet, so it may be flat or near enough to flat as to make no practical difference.

AC

[Tlaloc]

Humans actually knew that the world was round, long before Christopher Columbus ever came on the scene.

Alot of it has to do with simple observation of horizons. You just need a really flat area - like the Salt Flats - to observe it. Would Zalanthans know this? Who knows.

[Barzalene]

This is something that none of my pc's have pondered.

[Forest Junkie]

Well, from a player's perspective, the world is indeed flat, because code wise you cannot travel around the entire world. You are only living within a small fraction of a greater whole. At least, that is the impression I am given when playing.

But, from a Zalanthan's perspective, the world would indeed seem round, because, the world is indeed a planet, and planets are round. :wink:  I don't think it would be too bold a statement to say that Zalanthans would know at least that much about phsyics and such.

In conclusion...It's both!

[Lazloth]

Humans actually knew that the world was round, long before Christopher Columbus ever came on the scene.

Not Columbus.  Within Western culture, it was in 1543 A.D. that Nicolaus Copernicus put forth the idea that the earth is round and it revolves round the sun.

Didn't Venomz point out in another post that the time between Allanak and Tuluk was slightly different?

Time could be the same, and still be a round planet. Like LA time and Portland time might be the same, but the world is still round.

Me, as a Player of Armageddon and non-inhabitant of Zalanthas, I would say that Zalanthas is infact globe shaped, though I do not believe this has been coded into the game, yet. (keep in mind I really have no clue as to the truth of this)

To the well educated Zalanthan (Noble or Templar who gives a shit), The answer would depend on what research has been done, but the majority of them would probably believe that it is flat, or not be able to say one way or another.

To Every Other inhabitant of the Know World, the answer would be something along the lines of "Who gives a Flyin Shap?" Most people would not care, nor would they have any real reason to

One of my characters believed the world a piece of sandstone in a jar on the Dragon's desk. Being shaken to cause sandstorms, etc. I don't think there is really any 'wrong' idea of what or how the world is perspectively... as there is no form of general education, unuseful knowledge- as this would probably be considered, isn't really important to the majority. And also in a world of magick and strange things... logic isn't really a big thing either I'd imagine.

Alot of it has to do with simple observation of horizons. You just need a really flat area - like the Salt Flats - to observe it. Would Zalanthans know this? Who knows.

That's even subjective. What if the Unknown world is so large, I'm talking Jupiter or larger sized, that the known world would be at the most slightly rounded... only enough to be counted as possible altitude changes.
Never know I guess. Maybe an OFFICIAL response on how the terrain would appear.

But, from a Zalanthan's perspective, the world would indeed seem round, because, the world is indeed a planet, and planets are round.  I don't think it would be too bold a statement to say that Zalanthans would know at least that much about phsyics and such.

In conclusion...It's both!

Zalanthans don't know they are on a planet. They have seen no other planets, they have not even explored more then a minor amount of the one they are on. The word planet would probably not even exist. And with at least a few people believing the sun to be the entity Suk-krath, or at least just an orb of fire hanging far above the surface... I doubt people know much of anything about cosmic bodies, and their properties and shapes.

Some concessions can be made however... the sun does rise, and then fall beyond the horizon. Implying there is some limit or end to the world, but maybe the common belief is it rises out of the canyons beyond the mantis lands, and sets into a fiery pit within the eastern mountains.

I like the mystery an uneducated world lets of have. Anything could be possible, because there are no definitive answers to be had.

[Stroker]

I don't think a solid planet can be the same size as Jupiter. My guess, Zalanthas is about the same size as Earth.

[Forest Junkie]

Lazloth, didn't most sailors know, even before Columbus and Copernicus, that the world was round. Because, when you are at sea, you can't see forever. You see the horizon, which appears to be a slightly "bent" shape. At least I -think- that makes sense.

[Lazloth]

There is argument that some polynesians did, yes, but generally western thought went with the pie in the sky.

[Stroker]

I do believe that in the times of the Roman Empire, it was fairly common knowledge that the world was round. And then the empire collapsed and the dark ages swept in, and all was forgotten ... am I right? Tell me I'm right ...

[Lazloth]

You are wrong.  The credit would go to the Greeks.

In 500 BC, early Greeks believed the flat earth thing. Their maps depicted Earth also as a flat disk on an ocean; their mythology also said: Oceanus, a river, flowed around the flat Earth. Beyond to the west, were the underworld and the sunless country of dreams.

It was perhaps Pythagoras who was first (in the sixth century BC) to theorize a round world. Aristotle (384-322 BC) came up with convincing arguments for a spherical shape. He watched the Moon eclipse the Earth and noted that the Earth's shadow on the Moon was always round. If Earth were a disk, the shadow on the Moon would sometimes be a line.

[EDIT: To be more loveable.]

[Forest Junkie]

:lol:  Lazloth...gotta love him.

[Angela Christine]

The pool of educated people is quite small, and true scholars rare.  On the other hand there is evidence of sizable libraries, both within the templarate and some noble estates.  There is also some evidence of observatroies and interest in astronomy, but they may have been more concerned with the movement of the sun and moons than the stars and planets.  Their calender is based on complex movements and relationships between  the sun and moons.  

I wouldn't be surprised to find some sophisticated material inside the great libraries.  The trouble is that there isn't a culture of scholarship to maintain, review and test the theories.  There won't be seperation between the philosophical or observational scholars and those that undertake rigorous scientific experiementation.  So someone with interest and access to those libraries will find a variety of viewpoints and theories presented on any topic: preserved or copies of supposedly ancient works, religiously inspired writings by scholarly priests, dry mechanical works by practical engineering types, fanciful musings by psuedo-intellectual dilletantes, confused collections of second and third hand accounts of unusual events, and so on.  Without direct evidence or teams of scientists to conduct tests it will be difficult for a scholar to make sense of it all, much less correctly discern which are correct.  Even if he makes it his life's work to figure stuff out, his notes and writtings will go on the shelf next to all the other stuff.

It is easy to laugh at our ancestors who thought that sickness was caused by demons or evil spirits, that the world was flat, that leaching out blood was a good treatment for almost any ailment, that the menally ill were possessed by demons or touched by gods, that fire was caused by a liquid called philogestin, or that if you sailed too far from shore you might fall off the world, if a baby boy had a tiny penis or if his penis was dammaged during circumsision just cut it off and raise him as a girl, he/she'll never know and being a sterile female won't be as traumatic as being an under-endowed male.  It is easy to be outraged at the doctors who laughed at germ theory and kept on preforming surgery without washing their hands, or the people who perecuted Copernicus and demanded he recant his theory that the world was round and the earth orbited the sun.  But it is also easy to forget that we aren't any smarter than those people, and we are still making stupid mistakes.  Some accepted medical practices are still being found to be unhelpful, or even dangerous.  Some widely accepted scientific theories of today will be hilarious to our great grandchildren.  

Just try following dietary trends and pronouncements for a few years to see this in action.  Eggs are good, eggs are bad, no wait eggs are good again, no no no eggs are bad for some people but good for other people, in moderation.  Butter is bad use margarine.  Ooops, hard margarine is as bad as butter, use soft margarine.  No, wait, hard margarine might even be worse than butter, so use butter or soft margarine.  Err, it's fatty eaither way, use fat subsitutes instead.  Woah, watch out for those carcinogenic chemicals in the fat substitutes.  Um, well, if you really want to use oil or butter, but try use just a little.  Remember when "starchy" foods became carbohydrates?  Pasta went from being too starchy to being carbo-loading, which was a good thing.  Now we're down on simple carbs (sugars and starches) again, complex carbs are the way to go!  Wait, carbs are trouble, go with a high-protien, low-carb diet.  Don't worry about dietary fats, they are essential oils and lipids now!  No, the key is a balanced diet . . . be we don't entirely agree what is balanced.  Ugh.  If you ever want to see your head spin get a couple paperback diet and nutrition books from each of the last 5 or 6 decades.  Carbs are good, carbs are bad.  Fats are good, fats are bad.  Protien is usually good, but what kind and how much is recomended varies wildly.  

Zalanthan scholarship would also take into account the flows of magickal energies that do affect their world.  This is probably something like quantum physics, look up the 'Einstein Podolsky Rosen Paradox' if you want a headache, it looks a lot like magic.  Spells have words, but just saying the words or meditating on the concepts they are believed to represent won't necessarily cause the spell to manifest.  Even an actual magicker can say the words of a spell without casting that spell, which makes you wonder how important the words really are.  Magicker-scholars have some real potential, and a few of them must occasionally pop up among the nobles and templars.  Imagine a skilled rukkian who is so attuned to matter that he can sense the individual molecules that make up an object.  Or the Nilazi who can look at an apparently solid object and see the spaces between those molecules, and realize that most of the universe is composed of those spaces, composed of nothingness.  Matter and energy are not the seperate things they appear, but rather aspects of the same things and a magicker can convert one into the other without destroying it, because of course nothing can be destroyed, not really.  Turning a rock into a rose only requires tapping the protons and electrons in the right spot so they reorganize into whatever you want.

But most people won't give a damn.  Just like in our world most people  want to survive and be comfortable, they don't care if reality is an illusion as long as they have a cold beer.

Angela Christine

[Hoodwink]

I don't think a solid planet can be the same size as Jupiter. My guess, Zalanthas is about the same size as Earth.

Wouldn't the planet have to be smaller since day and night span faster on Zalanthas than earth?  The sun sets for only a few hours (unless you want to argue that a Zalanthan hour is not as long as an earth hour -- in which case you can disregard all logic what so ever).  The trouble is, if it were smaller, wouldn't the gravitational pull operate differently?  Unless the planet were denser, or situated at a different distance from its sun than earth.  But then, I don't really know a great deal about science.

[Angela Christine]

Wouldn't the planet have to be smaller since day and night span faster on Zalanthas than earth?  The sun sets for only a few hours (unless you want to argue that a Zalanthan hour is not as long as an earth hour -- in which case you can disregard all logic what so ever).  

Don't be so quick to throw out logic, we actually know exactly how long a Zalanthan hour is.  We know that a Zalanthan year is equivilent to an Earth year, a 17 yo human on Zalanthas will be at the same stage of development as a 17 yo human on earth.  Once you know that, the rest is easy.

According to help time, a Zalanthan year has 693 days, and a day has 9 hours.  That means a year has 6,237 z-hours.

As we all know, an Earth year has about 365 days, and each day has 24 hours.  So a year has 8,760 e-hours.

That means that a Zalanthan hour is actually a bit longer than an Earth hour!  A year has 525,600 minutes, divide that by the number of hours in a year (6237) and the number of minutes per hour is 82!  


Now if you get zapped into Zalanthas wearing your trusty wristwatch you will know that an hour is 82, rather than 60, minutes long.  Not that it will help, you'll die anyway.

As for planet size and density, I have no idea.  Sorry, I can only do basic math.

AC

[Lazloth]

I think all you prove here is that rotation along the Zalanthan axis is quicker than that of Earth, and that Zalanthas sits further than we do from our sun.

[Cuusardo]

I'm inclined to believe that the only people who've ever really given it any thought whatsoever are the educated people on Zalanthas.  Commoners are too concerned with survival to ponder such things, and slaves...well, they're slaves.

[Carnage]

I think a Zalanthan hour is just 60 minutes. Same as a standard earth hour. It'd be confusing to make it some odd time and would basically throw off every other discussion.

If 9 hours = a Zalanthan day, then it takes 9 hours for the planet to fully rotate. This says nothing about the size of the planet, just that it has a quick rotation speed. For comparison, it takes Jupiter, the largest planet, nearly 10 hours to rotate.

Edit: Where does it say that a Earth year = Zalanthan year?

[Gorobei]

Edit: Where does it say that a Earth year = Zalanthan year?

It doesn't, but as AC said, an 18 year old human is in the same stage of development on Earth and Zalanthas.  Of course, Zalanthan humans could develop at a different rate.

I believe that Zalanthas is smaller than Earth.  I think that gravity must be lower on Zalanthas.  How else could giant insects survive?

Well, if Zalanthas were to be the same size, and the spin was quicker like someone mentioned was possible, I think the centripital (sp?) force would somewhat counteract the effect of gravity, making it seem lesser.

[Lazloth]

Astute. Calculate the magnitude of the centrifugal force due to our curved path as Earth turns and compare that to the force of gravity at Earth's surface.

Take the radius of Earth to be 6.37 million meters, the circumference is 2*pi*6.37e6 or 40 million meters. We cover that distance in 24 hours as Earth turns so the tangential speed (Vt) of a person on Earth's surface is 4e7/(24*3600) meters per second. This comes out to be 463 meters per second.

Centrifugal force Fc is given by Fc=m*Vt^2/R where m is the mass of the object at Earth's surface and R is the radius of Earth. In our case lets take the mass of a person to be 100kg so Fc=100*463^2/6.37e6. That is Fc=3.365 Newtons.

The force of gravity on this 100kg person is his mass times the acceleration of gravity at Earth's surface. That is 9.8*100 or 980 Newtons. Centrifugal force then reduces the force holding the person to Earth's surface by about 0.34%.

You are correct in theory that centrifugal force marginally reduces the effect of gravity.

[Xanous]

I believe that Zalanthas is smaller than Earth. I think that gravity must be lower on Zalanthas. How else could giant insects survive?

It's either that or the people of Zalanthas are really, really tiny.  

Either way, it's the only way to explain things.  Insects can only get to the size of a dinner plate - and even those are very sluggish compared to ants and flies.  It's very hard to imagine being eaten by elephant sized centipede like a Gaj, or even a man-sized beetle.  They'd be crushed by their own weight.

It's also possible to survive falls off the shield wall, while a normal human on earth couldn't survive a fall off a 2 story building.  You can see 60 stone humans wield 15 stone bone greatswords (that's a 120 lb person wielding a 30 lb weapon).

[Bestatte]

>Bestatte hurls.

[Drayab]

I would have to go with globe, simply because if I was going to try to build a world that seems realistic and coherant, I would build one that is similar to the world I am used to. Deviate from that, and you always have to think about how something would look in the world you're building and question what you know from your real life experiences.

For example, on a flat world, what would you see very far in the distance on a flat plain? Would you see the edge of the world? A wall of mountains? Haze? In our world the distance we can see is limited by the horizion. There would certainly be a limit to how far you can see in a flat world, but what determines that distance would be different in some circumstances than in the real world.

And what about gravity? We can thank the spherical shape of the Earth for giving us a (nearly) uniform gravitational field that points DOWN. If the world was flat, we wouldn't have that. Standing near the edge, you would feel gravity pulling you down and to the side! Near the center of the world you would feel much less gravity than elsewhere. If the world wasn't very thick, you might not feel much gravity at all! Then you start wondering how such a strange world was formed in the first place if indeed gravity was the culprit.

Of course, you could always just ignore all that scientific stuff and do as you like. But I like to think that my physical concepts that I am familiar with from everyday life will, for the most part, hold on Zalanthas. So, I pick the sphere.

[House Rising Sun]

Zalanthas is as flat as my cousin's head.

We're assuming that stars in the game sky are other suns, that the horizon is due to a curve in the planet, and the sun rises and falls because the world turns just like ours. However, keep in mind that magick does not exist, half-giants are in fact figments of our imaginations, and our rulers aren't quite as immortal as Tek and his pen-pal Muk Utep.

From a logical perspective, there's nothing in the game world telling its inhabitants that there's more than a flat chunk of rock with some fancy crap overhead. In fact, the presence of magickal elements only reinforces the belief that the whole known world is being serviced by the heavens. Krath fights off the darkness, whira cools their backs, and so on.

But from the fantasy world angle, remember that physics doesn't exactly apply. That's the nature of a fictional setting. Like when Baron Munchausen sailed to the moon. That was cool. Different type of fantasy, but the same rule applies. So until someone leaves the known world from the east and arrives in the west, or plants a flag on lirathu in the name of Tektolnes, or... something... I think it's best to let perception dictate reality. That's all there is.

By the way, I still firmly believe Earth is flat. Keep that in mind also.