How to make clans more appealing?

[FantasyWriter]

Lizzie and I once played northern/southern agent counterparts in a GMH.
We had so many clannies, staff kept slapping our wrists for "thinning the herd" which we seemed to have to do every other week or so.

Good times, good times.  

[KankWhisperer]

Pretty sure the GMH clan docs were all completely revised in the last year or so and those types of things are not allowed.

Not all. I wish.

[Lizzie]

Lizzie and I once played northern/southern agent counterparts in a GMH.
We had so many clannies, staff kept slapping our wrists for "thinning the herd" which we seemed to have to do every other week or so.

Good times, good times.  

It was all you! You kept hiring them, I kept driving them to suicide

Well okay - I did have a couple or three of my own, that my PC actually liked. But yeah we were basically driving them away with the proverbial stick. Everyone wanted to be in the clan. We could afford to be picky, then.

Now, clan leaders practically have to beg people to join. The rules were different then, the clan staff dynamics were different then, and I really do believe that the playerbase "mentality" was different then.

[tortall]

Recruit crafters and hunters: No sales, no profits, no commissions, no pay.  You work for the privilege of being employed by the GMH, having access to free food/water/shelter/locker/tools/free stabling of your mount in the clan stable, and the chance to promote to the next rank.

Recruits are not allowed to leave the city they're in, without a higher ranking person who has permission to lead you out of the city.

I did notice a nice and clearly spelled out rules, but it was never anything different than before from what I could tell. It was just all put in one place rather than being scattered over the clan boards in various places and edited by several people.


Pretty sure even with those changes, crafters still get a cut of what they make that is sold, recruit or no.
Hunters, if they don't make anything on their own, have a more difficult time, but I've seen where they work around it and no one gets butthurt. So long as they're not messing up House sales or Other House Sales....

Anyways, I don't see this as an issue.

And hunters have always been told to go out in pairs. If there's something particularity dangerous around for a time, or an area that's REALLY bad, or this one creature we need to kill but don't send recruits after it.... Yeah, that makes sense.

Wish I could post specifics, but it's still too soon.

[Lizzie]

Like I said - unless the rules have changed since they completely redid them in the past year - recruit crafters get no coins at all, no commission, no pay, no cut of the profits. The boss of course can toss the recruit some sids, but it comes out of his own pockets.

That was one of the changes that players took issue with, plus the new heirarchy and responsibilities of each rank.

[Malken]

Like I said - unless the rules have changed since they completely redid them in the past year - recruit crafters get no coins at all, no commission, no pay, no cut of the profits. The boss of course can toss the recruit some sids, but it comes out of his own pockets.

Doesn't look like most follow their own clan rules, then, or everyone is just breaking them left and right.

[williamson]

Generally speaking, I think that when clans have small numbers of active players that it hurts the clan's playability and appeal. Quickly looking over the Armageddon website, I counted 20 open clans in the game. Considering a good number of players during "primetime" is 65, I think there are too many open clans. Here are some ideas about how to fix it:

1) Keep the Jaxa Pah closed. However, there really isn't a clan for PC Allanaki city elves. Solution: open the Guild up to city elves. (I haven't played in the Guild in a long time, so perhaps they already do?)

2) There are three human tribal clans. That's too many, close either the al'Siek or the Arabet. With the loss of Tyn Dashra, the Tan Muark are forced to start rebuilding their numbers by bringing people from outside the tribal family. Their wagons roam the world in hunt for suitable newcomers. Recruitment changes from OOC to half OOC/IC. There are numerous trials for those wanting to join, and they must prove their dedication to the tribe. Who do they seek? Successful independents? Clan numbers go up and indy numbers down.

3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.

4) Expand the range of the elven tribals. Larger ranges means more interaction which leads to more conflict. I'd like to see the Sunrunners roam all over the known selling their tribal wears. Likewise, I'd enjoy seeing the Soh raiding all over the world.

5) The GMH's are clans that are all nearly 20 years old. After 20 years, things get stale. I'm not wearing my grunge flannel anymore. However, it wasn't always this way. I played Arm when only House Kurac and House Kohmar were open. You can only have so many interesting stories about selling things... especially, when you have to do it for over two decades. What if we closed one of them? I bet this seems insane to some of you. However, do many players lament that they can't play in House Kohmar and enjoy the thrill of playing in the old house with the bandage, herb, and container monopoly? I doubt it. Maybe it's time for another trade war... Kadius vs Salarr and the winner gets to sell weapons, armors, furniture, AND silk panties.

6) House Winrothol. It's the nothern clone of House Borsail, minus the muls, Wyverns, and Arena. Why have two open slave noble houses when you can't play slaves anyway? I know it might hurt, but we got over Reynolte, right?


Obviously, there is a bit of jest in these ideas. However, I think if we concentrated the clans a bit that it would benefit everyone. Figuring out how to do that and keep most people happy would be the hard part.

[Blur]

Well this discussion brings back memories, huh Refugee? Even Nyr is here too

Several months back we had a similar discussion in the Legion forums. Some of us were feeling the clan was really restrictive and I suggest a slightly less restrictive schedule. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Instead of a day off what we got and what  is basically a situation where you are either sparring or patrolling. We got less time off at night to go out to just rp at the tavern since we got night patrols, but instead of stuck in the barracks with no one to spar we got the option to go and do more city patrols. We were able to request one day off (approved by sergeant, later virtual sergeant (thank god) ).

It wouldn't have been that bad for everyone. I  had a lot of time to play, mostly off-peak so for me it mostly seemed like nothing but endless patrolling of what seemed to be an empty city to me. If you have more then three hours a day to play this game being stuck in a very restrictive clan is a nightmare. Even with people around, you end up going having to do the same thing day in and day out, it just becomes boring very quick. The more restrictive the clan is the less opportunity you have to find people to RP and begins or get mixed up in your own plots as well. The opposite is must be true too though, if you only have a couple hours to play during prime time joining a clan with active leaders is a pleasure to play each day. One day off is excellent if you only have three hours to play anyways as opposed to having six or more hours to play.

Another thing I notice is that location matters. Allanak is very different from Tuluk. There is a lot more activity in allanak, mostly due to the fact your have the rinth one one side, a harsh environment that not everyone can easily survive in all around the city and a mixture of clans and personalities mingling within. I would argue that being trapped inside the gates in Allanak is really not as bad as Tuluk. In Tuluk, i would say most of the action happens outside the walls in the surrounding environment. You have people hunting, foraging,  and just doing their thing around the area much more. It makes being stuck inside the walls of Tuluk even more unbearable since any action or cool scene is not as likely to happen inside the city.

Anyways these are some of the personal rules I've developed when it comes to whether I will join a clan or not.

1. I will not join a clan where I will not be allowed to earn the right to leave the gates and get myself kill within a reason amount of time. One year is my limit. There are a lot of clan leaders out there that think that if they can restrict their clan member and keep them alive their clan will be much more fun, allowing them to run whatever plots they have in mind. Let me be frank, I could care less about someone else's plot. I was to have the freedom to create my own plots and/or find join other plots that might seem interesting to me.  My way of thinking is better to someone die early enjoying themselves rather that have them live a long life and store from boredom.

2.I will not join a clan where I will not be allowed to leave after a while. Some clans have up-times, and down times. I want reserve the right to move to greener pastures if the clan becomes boring for whatever reason. I've lost a couple of amazing characters because they ended up stuck somewhere I was no longer having fun in, and it was not in their nature to just pick up and run away from everything they've known. Heartbreaking.

Whenever I make exceptions to these rules there comes a point where I end up regretting it. My independents don't live as long, or get much attention but its a much more enjoyable experience to log and and think, 'hmm, what am I going to do today, rather then well, sparring and then other routine chore for the next hours and a half'. The clans having more to do, more purpose, more conflict with one another would be nice, however I am not going to hold my breathe or wait around for it to happen. That is something staff will do/change whenever or if ever they feel like it. Its the same with hoping some IC leader will make the clan enjoyable. There are some great leaders out there, some of them that thing its their responsibility to make the clan fun for me, however IC leaders are players too, and are playing for their own enjoyment, not mine. I make my character enjoyable to me to play, and I don't feel it is anyone else's responsibility but my own to do that.

Luckily there are a couple clans out there that fit my criteria. I'll stick with them (or not) for now.

[LauraMars]

3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

But part of me wants to see it.

[BleakOne]

3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

But part of me wants to see it.

It would likely end with the entire AoD and Templarate spiced out of their mind, and House Fale taking their shoes.

[Malken]

1) Keep the Jaxa Pah closed. However, there really isn't a clan for PC Allanaki city elves. Solution: open the Guild up to city elves. (I haven't played in the Guild in a long time, so perhaps they already do?)

Wouldn't really work, because 1 - for IC reason and 2 - The rinth would grow rather boring and stale if there wasn't a Guild vs elf turf war. Right now there is no turf war and thus, the rinth is boring (at least in my opinion - What would be the point of rinth rp if everyone was on the same side?)

2) There are three human tribal clans. That's too many, close either the al'Siek or the Arabet. With the loss of Tyn Dashra, the Tan Muark are forced to start rebuilding their numbers by bringing people from outside the tribal family. Their wagons roam the world in hunt for suitable newcomers. Recruitment changes from OOC to half OOC/IC. There are numerous trials for those wanting to join, and they must prove their dedication to the tribe. Who do they seek? Successful independents? Clan numbers go up and indy numbers down.

There's really only one tribal clan. I don't think you can even apply for Tan Muark these days, and the Arabeti and the al Seik are basically one tribe, living together, with different docs, but if you play an Arabeti, you'll bump all the time into a Seik and vice versa.

3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.

Never understood the point of the Fale House so I really wouldn't care if they were gone.

4) Expand the range of the elven tribals. Larger ranges means more interaction which leads to more conflict. I'd like to see the Sunrunners roam all over the known selling their tribal wears. Likewise, I'd enjoy seeing the Soh raiding all over the world.

Fuck no. The last thing I want to see is desert elves acting like the grasslands belong to them and that they make you feel grateful that they're letting you leave Red Storm in peace. I seriously wish that all desert-elf tribes were gone and that the race itself was taken away, but that's a whole different topic.

6) House Winrothol. It's the nothern clone of House Borsail, minus the muls, Wyverns, and Arena. Why have two open slave noble houses when you can't play slaves anyway? I know it might hurt, but we got over Reynolte, right?

There's a militaristic aspect to Winrothol that is a lot more than just slave-trading driven. I would say that player-wise, it's even more important than their slave background. They could be considered the "knight" reserve of the army fighting along the Legion shocktroops. I would probably agree with you if House Borsail and House Winrothol were in the same city, but when someone goes in either House, it's rarely with them wanting to have slave-related plots in mind.

[Qzzrbl]

Wouldn't really work, because 1 - for IC reason and 2 - The rinth would grow rather boring and stale if there wasn't a Guild vs elf turf war. Right now there is no turf war and thus, the rinth is boring (at least in my opinion - What would be the point of rinth rp if everyone was on the same side?)

Just gotta chime in here.

A 'Rinth vs. Southside conflict would be %10000000 more interesting than "yet another human vs. elf dick waving contest", which usually only yields a case of "fuck, now I've gotta re-build my crew in this rarely populated area because 90% of 'rinth players bolt for Allanak proper upon chargen anyhow" on both sides. It's either that, or one side has to make some outrageous compromise 'cause they're soundly outnumbered.

Can go without.

Bring the pain to 'Nak.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Here are a few of the things that could be done with clans to make them more appealing. GMH and Noble Houses (hereafter referred to as NH) have different needs, so I will preface each point with the sort of organization it is concerning.

GMH - Housing:
- Single rooms with middling capacity, in a housing tenement outside of but close to the clans' estates. A limited number per clan (6-10 would be my preference), and only available to life-sworn commoner members. This accomplishes a couple of things. It bolsters the low base pay, and it serves as the basis of a cap for life-sworn membership.

NH - Housing:
- Singe rooms with high capacity, on House Grounds, for commoner life sworn members. I'd say no more than 3-6, just to almost force a life-sworn cap.

GMH - Pay:
- As attractive as higher pay sounds, I would be very wary of over-glorifying the positions. Pay could be raised, but it shouldn't be some asininely high number. On the other hand, I'd like to see the actual House coffers have a substantially high number of coins on hand.

NH - Pay:
- Noble House Pay should be stupidly high. These clans are the cream of the crop for the world, and their life sworn employees should be able to act like it.

GMH - PC Cap:
Life-sworn caps for GMHs should probably be around 10. Access to the amenities of a GMH should be sought after. I don't mind GMHs hunting people down here and there in an effort to get the best personnel, but a GMH should be a desirable place to work in, based solely upon how much better life is overall.

NH - PC Cap:
- Life-sworn caps for NH clans should be low, in the 3-6 member range. Access to premium living arrangements, insane stipends, and the social protection and prestige that comes of serving a NH should be highly sought after. NHs shouldn't be chasing anyone, ever, unless they are literally poaching employees.

NH & GMH- Themes and World Niches:
- Kurac: Combative Role: Outpost and spice land protection, trade route maintenance. Mercantile Role: Travel goods, spice, extensive tribal relations.
- Salarr: Combative Role: World-worn risk-takers, extensive hunting, exploration. Mercantile Role: Uh ... weapons and armor.
- Kadius: Combative Role: Fancy, dangerous drunkards, extensive foraging, exploration. Mercantile Role: Luxury goods.
- NHs: There's not a ton of combative roles in most NHs these days, as far as I can tell, but what roles there are seem to be pretty darned defined. I support this.

Byn - North?:
- I tend to agree that the Byn doesn't really fit Tuluk very well. You know what does? That little place that Sujaal built. Add a total of ... I think five more rooms to it, and define it as the "Byn with Northron class". Just call it the School. We know that the Byn today is in very dire straights anyway up North. What's more, if Tuluk actually crushes the Byn up North, Sujaal's School and the Byn become automatic enemies. Oh, hai, conflict.

NHs and GMHs - That First Year:
- I have no issue with recruits being paid nothing for the first year, IF changes are made to make being asked to stay on with the House something desirable. If those changes are not made, then I would like to see some sort of minor compensation given recruits. In NHs like, Tor, perhaps, and in Kurac, I support the loose idea of a schedule. In Salaar and Kadius, I think this is dumb, and if I were leading one of those Houses, I would never hold my employees to a schedule. A schedule in any non-military House, like Fale or somesuch, is ludicrous.
  I also understand telling people not to leave the gates alone, but I'm not sure that this should be a rule. I'd rather it be a suggestion. Conversely, don't bother outfitting them until that year is up and they are asked to stay or go. Hunters join GMHs to hunt - telling them they can't hunt seems counter-productive. If they die, you're out of a couple sid worth of water and food, and maybe a piece of armor your merchant made ten of to practice anyway. No great lose, in my opinion.
  In a NH, on the other hand, the rule should absolutely be enforced. It should be a very distinctive difference in the two sorts of clans. In a GMH, we don't care what you do as long as we have fur in our cupboard. In a NH, you are us and now our free-slave, even if only for as long as you serve us. We gift you the chance to be here, you will not run off and be shot at by desert elves for giggles.

GMHs? - Full Crafting:
- I think every item in the game that is man-made should be craftable. Every single one, with the exception of things like houses or ... things like that - statues, etc. Yes, I think even wagons should be craftable. And wagons could be made next to impossible to craft simply by creating a long enough and resources demanding crafting tree for each wagon, along with insane and diverse skill checks for each branch. I digress.
  Making every item craftable accomplishes a number of things. It allows merchants to stock their stores with unique things that have been lost in the ether (this is done by "offer item 0"). It also allows those things to never truly die, forgotten by everyone. One day, someone will stumble upon the recipe. It gives even wider demand for raw goods to the hunters of the house. There's less, "That's useless to us." It ultimately lowers staff work in loading up items, and gives them more time to ... hrmph, tell stories.
  Yes, it raises a merchant's workload, but then again, one can have more than one merchant in a town. And I don't know, I wouldn't mind seeing any life-sworn member of a GMH authorized to sell within a range of value based on rank. In Kurac, for instance, perhaps a Regular could sell you something priced from 1-250, a Sergeant could sell you something priced from 1-500, etc. This would also lighten the main Merchant's load, and keep them more active and less easily burnt out.

GMHs - Supply Cooperation:
- When your supply is low, there should be a system of cooperation between the GMHs whereby the House with all of the Hunters might happen to have what you need. The GMHs all work together as it is to maintain the monopoly they hold in the world - access to each others' supplies isn't a much farther reach. If Salarr has a collection of rubies that's gathering dust, Kadius ought to be able to ask about that and get monetarily favorable access to them. Independents should serve independents, and the GMHs should work more closely together, at least on the surface.

GMHs and NHs - Non-Lifesworn Roles:
- Finally, every GMH and every NH should have good, strong roles that do not require you to swear a life oath, but that is also somewhat of a surface role. Why do you do what you do? Because Lord Oash said so. The Lifesworn guy might know that Lord Oash needs you to go there and kill this guy because it sets in play a chain effect of intrigue. You don't get told that. Go kill him, now. You failed? Oh. Well, fuck off. Get fired, with no reference, you shit.
   As far as I know, every GMH has roles like these. I'm not so sure that all of the NHs do.
   As far as the cities' military forces go, the entry role should never be a life-sworn role. You should serve terms of service, and re-up at the end of your term, or be able to usually leave. Maybe even allow non-lifer corporals. Sergeants and higher, I'd say, should be life-sworn.

[Malken]

A++ would read again and implement all of Monsieur LesSeptVeninsMortels on the spot.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I need to add one more thing to this.

Ultimately, what would make clans more appealing, particularly in light of the suggestions I have made, is the loss of one of the cities. For one, it would enable more NHs to be opened in direct interaction and competition with one another, ie: All of Tuluk's NHs open, or all of Allanak's NHs opened. It would consolidate the bases for the GMHs as well, much like Kurac is pretty much centralized in Luir's. With massive quality-of-life improvements to the clans, these NH and GMH positions would be clamored for, and betrayal and murder might actually become a way into these cushy(er) jobs.

You would have a thriving independent scene, and a thriving clan scene, particularly with the number of players we have these days.

[Evilone]

I think the idea to put in more family member PC's and higher up people in the GMH's was a good step. Being mid-ranked, I felt a need to socialise more with those in my social caste (in tuluk for example), and you do want to make 'friends', but I'd like to also have people to outright despise, but with say only one Salarr PC in such a position, it kind of hinders any business you might want with Salarr, even though there could be fifty virtual Salarr to deal with then afterwards, and vise-versa. That make sense? It would be good to have more people to plot with and against. That's not to say you still don't secretly screw over the people who are supposedly your friends. Maybe in Tuluk you shouldn't have those people you openly hate anyway?

To me, there seems to be plenty of low independent squabbles and plotting and scheming, but not enough of the higher ups, Agent+'s, and Surif, but the work to get more is there from what I've seen lately with rollcalls, so thumbs up there!

I think a huuuge draw for GMH clans and noble clans would be in-compound bedrooms for life-sworn members. Even small rooms, but big enough that players get to play "House". Rugs, tables, paintings, figurines, silk sheets, wardrobes, all that cool stuff (if they can afford it that is). But oaths shouldn't be so easy, and it should take some years IG to achieve them.

Hiring a skilled robber to burgle apartments in Tuluk, probly not as much fun as trying to figure out ways to burgle houses within clan compounds

[Lizzie]

Some awesome thoughts from Venomz. I have a couple comments about a few of the ideas.

GMH - Housing:
Single rooms with middling capacity, in a housing tenement outside of but close to the clans' estates. A limited number per clan (6-10 would be my preference), and only available to life-sworn commoner members. This accomplishes a couple of things. It bolsters the low base pay, and it serves as the basis of a cap for life-sworn membership.

I'd make it even more limited, say, 3-5 max, with one "reservation required" room provided short-term at the highest-ranking PC agent's discretion. It gives the lifesworn something to strive for AND a built-in point of conflict when there are several life-sworn. My experience with intra-clan conflict usually goes like this: "I'm doing something the docs say I'm not supposed to do, because I feel like it, so there." "But you're not supposed to do it, because it makes things hard for the rest of us to do what we're supposed to be doing." "So? Who cares? Just chill out." "Mooooooom Johnny's breaking the rules and doesn't care that we can't do our jobs if he refuses to do his!"

Or..
"Cindy is MY girlfriend, don't look at her. C'mere Cindy, let's snog naked on the cot in the communal bunkroom." "...omg do they EVER put on clothes and hunt? I need kryl shells dammit..." ...two RL weeks later... look in trunk You see - no kryl shells. Look on cot: You see Cindy and Amos, naked, snogging. ragequit.

I'd like to see some more variety in the reasons why characters should have conflict with each other. The whole jealousy/relationships/lack of interest in doing what they were hired to do drama is old, overdone. Have three rooms, with five people wanting to live in them. There's something at least a little different that they can fight over.

GMH - Pay:
As attractive as higher pay sounds, I would be very wary of over-glorifying the positions. Pay could be raised, but it shouldn't be some asininely high number. On the other hand, I'd like to see the actual House coffers have a substantially high number of coins on hand.

Another idea to add to this: presently, the Agent/Merchant can gift his employees with stuff from his own personal stores, plus they get a discount. But if they can't afford the things the House sells, a discount is pretty pointless for lower-ranked people who can't afford to *save* anything, let alone spend it on fancy stuff. So make a new perk: Once you've completed your first month, you get one item of something the House sells, appropriate to your position, of value no more than 250 sids (house cost). A crafter might get fancy new tools for himself to keep even after he leaves the House, or maybe he'd get a sturdy grebbing outfit so he can greb stones that he finds near the gates, without getting his city outfit dirty. Or a new cloak, or a fancy new pair of sunslits. A hunter might get a new pair of riding boots, or gloves, a cloak - something that would actually be of use to him. The employee can pick it out. After a year's service, they'd get their promotion or extension of duty, plus another freebie. After two years service, they'd get to pick out an item free, of up to 500 sids house cost value.

They'd STILL get their discount, and their pay, and all the other perks that come with the job. The Merchant/Agent can still also give them free stuff if they want. But the employee would be -guaranteed- a free item after completing certain time periods of employment with the House. Sort of like getting a 5-year mantle clock or a set of luggage to commemorate your 10th year at a corporation.

NHs and GMHs - That First Year:

I'm thinking instead of strict schedules, you have amounts of time you're expected to devote to clan-related activities and clan-needed skills.

So - instead of sparring every dawn for 2 hours... you say "You must either spar, OR actively hunt, or craft, for no less than one game-hour (10 minutes) for each game-day (hour) you are logged in per game-week (day)." And further - you should have a max window. You shouldn't be killing things/sparring/spam-crafting every moment of every logged in day either. So maybe you can do these things minimum of 10 minutes, maximum of 1/2 hour, for every hour you're logged in. The rest of the time should be devoted to interacting with other characters, meetings, hanging out at the bar, relaxing, cleaning the barracks, getting laid, getting drunk, looking for Steinal, etc. etc. etc.

Leave it up to the PCs to figure out when and how to meet up to accomplish their required tasks. Emphasize that they learn how to effectively use the Way, and then to actually USE it to communicate with each other when there's no one else in the barracks when they show up. It's unbelievable how many times I've heard clannies say "there was no one in the barracks so I didn't do anything productive today" when a bunch of us were at the bar, more than happy to return to the compound to do stuff, even though we had just finished doing stuff. But the lone clannie never bothered to even TRY to find out if any of us were around.

Those are really the only things I'd tweak/add to Venomz's points. I agree with the rest of them.

[Barzalene]

There are clans that are very regimented. And they should be. Both armies and the Byn (and the academy when it's open) have very strict schedules. This is not a bad thing. They're the type of organizations that should.

Other clan I think don't need the imms to say how regimented they should or should not be. I think it should be reactive. Different nobles and family members will run things as they see fit. Different noble and merchant house employees will respond best to various input. And things will break and fix themselves and popularity will wax and wane and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

For example if I like to hire newbies they may need a lot more structure to keep them alive or engaged.

If another player prefers to hire pcs that are already successful (ex byn troopers, well known independents who've made names for themselves, etc.) fewer restrictions will make sense. I think there's something to be said for not making everything delineated and cookie-cutter.

[Lizzie]

There are clans that are very regimented. And they should be. Both armies and the Byn (and the academy when it's open) have very strict schedules. This is not a bad thing. They're the type of organizations that should.

Other clan I think don't need the imms to say how regimented they should or should not be. I think it should be reactive. Different nobles and family members will run things as they see fit. Different noble and merchant house employees will respond best to various input. And things will break and fix themselves and popularity will wax and wane and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

For example if I like to hire newbies they may need a lot more structure to keep them alive or engaged.

If another player prefers to hire pcs that are already successful (ex byn troopers, well known independents who've made names for themselves, etc.) fewer restrictions will make sense. I think there's something to be said for not making everything delineated and cookie-cutter.

Employees still need structure. Guidelines, so they know what's expected of them. So they know that if they want to actually earn the coins their NPC paymaster automatically gives them, and the food their NPC foodguy automatically gives them, and the compound access the gate guard automatically grants them, and the water that the automated tun fills for them, they have to do a certain minimum.

This minimum can't be "as defined by their immediate PC boss." There are personal aides for immediate PC bosses, who theoretically aren't even supposed to have clan access at all (unless the docs have been changed again since I've seen them in the past year). Those are the only employees that the bosses should be able to *not* impose a minimum on, if he doesn't feel like imposing one. Everyone else who is clanned, is employed by the clan itself, with the PC boss as their immediate supervisor. The clan itself has to have certain minimum standards, otherwise it becomes just a social clan with nothing getting done. Or worse - a clan where the storerooms are so filled with shit that the crafters don't need, that there's no room left to put the shit that they do need, making it impossible for them to get anything done even when they're wanting to do so.

And then you have the recruit hunters who are SO buff...from non-stop sparring and non-stop hunting and non-stop foraging - from basically constant skill-grinding..

that the brand new recruit hunters can't spar with their fellow recruits beyond an initial one-shot unconsciousness. Or getting left behind because the skill-grinders don't want to deal with the new folks who need them to slow down and remember they're not the only ones in the crew.

Minimums are important. So are maximums. But - anything inbetween should be left up to the PC crews themselves, with the PC boss as overseer of the operation.

[Quirk]

GMH - Housing:
- Single rooms with middling capacity, in a housing tenement outside of but close to the clans' estates. A limited number per clan (6-10 would be my preference), and only available to life-sworn commoner members. This accomplishes a couple of things. It bolsters the low base pay, and it serves as the basis of a cap for life-sworn membership.

Some kind of space that a long-serving clan member can call their own seems not unreasonable.

GMH - PC Cap:
Life-sworn caps for GMHs should probably be around 10. Access to the amenities of a GMH should be sought after. I don't mind GMHs hunting people down here and there in an effort to get the best personnel, but a GMH should be a desirable place to work in, based solely upon how much better life is overall.

Ten feels like a lot. If the three GMHs are each at cap with ten lifesworn, and have a number of non-lifesworn besides, you're plausibly getting into situations where half the people online could be GMH. And, as I believe I've mentioned earlier, most of these GMH roles are in a certain sense "bad roles" - whether they're rigorously staffed by martinets or filled with lackadaisical slackers, there's likely little effect on the Agent's ability to load up special orders; they are shielded from most conflict save that sparked by personal disagreements, and to a degree even the conflict between city-states; most of the roles are neither gritty nor harsh, but ICly are supposedly highly desirable soft jobs. Kurac, the grittiest and most conflict-ridden GMH, can possibly justify so many PCs in the name of keeping Luir's running. I'm less convinced by the others.

GMHs? - Full Crafting:
- I think every item in the game that is man-made should be craftable.

This would be great, but I think the effort involved to put so many crafts in place is undoable. Lots of basic things which have been in shops for ages can't be crafted. What's commonly seen in shops is a tiny proportion of the item database. It could eat a staff member's time for a solid year and not be done, I think.

GMHs - Supply Cooperation:
- When your supply is low, there should be a system of cooperation between the GMHs whereby the House with all of the Hunters might happen to have what you need.

Oh, hell no. The cartel structure is already a huge part of the problem. Arm has a shortage of protagonist-antagonist pairings which have any teeth to them at all. The last thing we need is for the big players economically to be even cosier.

[Harmless]

By the time 7DV posted, I had felt like this thread culminated in a lot of great ideas I can totally get behind.

[ale six]

Williamson's post about closing clans got me thinking. I actually wouldn't want to see many existing clans closed, but what I would like to see is deeper saturation of leaders in every clan. Intra-clan politics has been lots of fun and extremely cutthroat in the past, and also often bleeds out into the larger plot web of the world, too. But to support those sorts of plots, you need more than one leader per House. Ideally, I think every open Noble House should have 2 active PC nobles minimum, because as a noble the only thing more fun than fucking over other nobles is fucking over your own cousins.  With GMHs, I'm not sure - maybe 3 per House? You want enough people to force a little friction.

Larger PC representation of Houses at the top level also helps the world feel more real and vast to me. I cringe when I hear people asking who "the" public face of House Whatever is, like there's only one. I think having more leaders also helps more plots trickle down to PCs in the game, and gets more people into clans and having fun. Or even if they're unclanned, they're usually being used by somebody in some fashion, or caught up in a struggle between two competitors. And that's all great. Some of the best fun I had in Allanak came at a time when there were something like seven nobles across four open Houses, plus three blue robed templars. That sort of saturation really gets an area cooking.

So would we need to close any existing clans to get that sort of saturation in the remaining ones? I'm not sure. I wonder what would happen if we tried to get both cities to a full staff of doubled-up PCs in Noble Houses + 3 templars, and see if clans didn't feel more fun just by sheer force of more action?

[Lizzie]

More than one per house per location is awkward - and can be OOCly frustrating and aggravating. Especially if one of them has been around awhile, and already has accumulated their contacts and networks and friends. When I played my Kadian, the other guy had already been there, entrenched himself in politics, and then I showed up, the staff said "okay here you are, one, two, three, GO." And gave us both the same task to accomplish involving the Senate meeting.

It was ridiculous. I was brand new out of chargen, my character didn't know anyone, had no idea what the current climate was politically, had no idea who was running what, who was an aide, who was around...and the other guy had been hobnobbing with the "important" people for weeks already. So clearly, I had no place in the situation at all. I had no reason to get involved, because the other guy was already handling it and clearly didn't want my character's help.

Thanks to some encouragement from the staff and some screw-ups from the other guy, I ended up handling the project and he got transferred. But if either of those things hadn't happened, I probably would've ended up storing within a week of genning. I wouldn't wish that kind of "grand opening" of a PC to anyone.

[Narf]

More than one per house per location is awkward - and can be OOCly frustrating and aggravating. Especially if one of them has been around awhile, and already has accumulated their contacts and networks and friends. When I played my Kadian, the other guy had already been there, entrenched himself in politics, and then I showed up, the staff said "okay here you are, one, two, three, GO." And gave us both the same task to accomplish involving the Senate meeting.

It was ridiculous. I was brand new out of chargen, my character didn't know anyone, had no idea what the current climate was politically, had no idea who was running what, who was an aide, who was around...and the other guy had been hobnobbing with the "important" people for weeks already. So clearly, I had no place in the situation at all. I had no reason to get involved, because the other guy was already handling it and clearly didn't want my character's help.

Thanks to some encouragement from the staff and some screw-ups from the other guy, I ended up handling the project and he got transferred. But if either of those things hadn't happened, I probably would've ended up storing within a week of genning. I wouldn't wish that kind of "grand opening" of a PC to anyone.

Careful about broadly applying personal preferences. If I had ever gotten to play a character in just that situation you described, I would die of rippling internal joy.

[Delirium]

^ yep.