Discussion of Rape being banned from plotlines

[Lutagar]

Is this policy something that's a test to see if it resolves issues, or one of those things that is set in stone and not likely to ever change?


Also this change makes me 

[Malken]

Also, I'm kind of wondering what sexual torture involves. This is not very clear to me.

Dude, if you're going to be torturing somebody and they consent to it, I'm pretty sure you can think of a torture that doesn't involve anything remotely sexual, and if you can't, maybe you shouldn't be torturing anyone to begin with.

[BadSkeelz]

I think it's a fair question. Castration, despite being an attack on the sexual organs, was said to be OK (I think?). Sodomy should probably be avoided. Nipple attacks? Hmmm....

[KankWhisperer]

I don't get why people are so comfortable with torture.

[Malken]

I think it's a fair question. Castration, despite being an attack on the sexual organs, was said to be OK (I think?). Sodomy should probably be avoided. Nipple attacks? Hmmm....

To normal people, castration is not a sexual act.

As I said, I'm sure you can think of a torture act or two that doesn't involve breasts, nipples or penis.

[Fujikoma]

Also, I'm kind of wondering what sexual torture involves. This is not very clear to me.

Dude, if you're going to be torturing somebody and they consent to it, I'm pretty sure you can think of a torture that doesn't involve anything remotely sexual, and if you can't, maybe you shouldn't be torturing anyone to begin with.

Oh, no, the problem is not being unable to think of non-sexual torture, I can think of plenty of those. The problem is being unable to tell where the line is drawn, some activities that others would find at best uncomfortable or at worst emotionally scarring may appeal to a certain type of character. Honestly, if I wanted to torture someone, I don't think I would do so sexually, it would probably involve removing toes, then fingers, then maybe an eye or an ear, maybe force them or one of their children to eat them, but I'm really not the type to engage in that kind of roleplay unless someone has done something very wrong to one of my PCs or their loved ones.

I mean, I've seen some questionable activities my characters would rather not have happened, although they reluctantly allowed it, but the character wasn't completely bothered by them and maybe even enjoyed it a little, and went back for some more of this new, interesting thing. I would rather have a clear idea of what this involves so I don't accidently get someone banned in the future.

[HavokBlue]

I don't get why people are so comfortable with torture.

Probably because it's a text based video game on the internet and any torture that takes place, just like rape or murder or theft or assault or racism is a fictional act taking place in a fictional world that has no effect on real life.

[KankWhisperer]

I don't get why people are so comfortable with torture.

Probably because it's a text based video game on the internet and any torture that takes place, just like rape or murder or theft or assault or racism is a fictional act taking place in a fictional world that has no effect on real life.

Yes, here we are on page 7 for another one of those things.

[FantasyWriter]

I'm surprised this is even an issue. I had no idea.  Never in my 7+ years of playing have I ever encountered RP even coming close to rape.

[Zoan]

Think of it this way: this policy change now eliminates the silly drama of tressy-tresses who cry wolf to get someone vindicated.

You know what I'm talking about.

[SmashedTregil]

I doubt many people really give a toss about the actual concept. It is such a rare instance in many player's usual storylines. It is the sheer blanketness of it that troubles, at least me. I mean in a sense, it invalidates the majority of an entire half-elven race.

[Desertman]

Can we still play rapists who don't actually roleplay raping PC's?

I have never roleplayed a rape on either end, but I have played a few PC's who used "being a rapist" as a way to gain instant villain status, even though the rapes were virtual and no pc's were ever actually involved.

For the sake of making it easy on staff and players alike I will say no.

You can put that your pc was a rapist in the background. You can't play out being a rapist in game, even if it's purely in mindset and not action.

It bothers me a little that it appears it took one staffer 11 minutes to decide this for the entire game. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that there wasn't a pool of staff standing by to have an 11 minute conversation on Christmas Eve morning and determine this for the entire game as a whole after a full discussion and a vote.

It doesn't appear the idea of doing away with "virtual" rape as a concept was discussed fully on staff side and this short answer was pulled up on short notice and replied to almost immediately by a single person.

I would like to request that the idea of no virtual/non pc to pc rape and atmospheric rape overtones be reconsidered and discussed staff side at length before an answer is given.

I find that most people have no problem with banning pc on pc rape.

Most people, including myself, seem to have a problem with making it so you can't even mention it, or ever play anyone who would be prone to it, even in a virtual sense that doesn't affect other players or put them in dangerous situations.

Eleven minutes.

[Zoan]

It was very likely not resulting in an 11 minute discussion, and more spending hours poring over logs to sort out a complaint and deciding they've had enough.

[Desertman]

It was very likely not resulting in an 11 minute discussion, and more spending hours poring over logs to sort out a complaint and deciding they've had enough.

Please re-read my quotes and my question. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying.

[LittleLady]

I'm a new player, who has been playing for a little over two months now. In my time playing Arm, I have heard of two instances/accusations of rape. My character wasn't involved in the scene, but only heard about it afterwards.

I can tell you right now, that I will not miss the added stress this puts on players and staff a like. I don't think it does anything to lessen the harsh reality of the game, as there are still so many harsh gritty aspects to the game. Murder, Torture, Kidnapping, etc. are all still things that exist. Work with them.

Personally, had I been involved in a scene like this, I would have consented but asked to fade and not be forced to role play the event. Is that for everyone, absolutely not. I don't think that any player should have to deal with that, as it isn't fun. It isn't fun in real life, and it isn't fun in movies or games.

I think that players should have some ability, however to keep their creative freedom in the back stories. They should even be allowed to discuss it if they choose. It should be clear though that this happened "a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far far away.." meaning not in the game world at the current time but in the past and the person that did it is long gone and out of existence. It isn't hard to imagine that is the case.

Just to save from having to post in multiple threads about the same issue, I think people are nit-picking this a little hard. It isn't rape to attempt to smack someone on the ass, especially if you don't take their choice out of it. It isn't rape to eye someone up and down and hit on them or make lewd suggestions. The minute suggestion turns to action, then the problem starts.

If this resolves issues for staff, and for players alike, then I say move on and give it a go.

[Culinary Critic]

I admit that I have not read all 7 (yes, seven pages...in one day...on December 24th!!!  You people are incredible.) pages of discussion on this topic, but will.

I admit that this is a horrifically evil twisted disturbed topic.

I admit that I am very, very glad that this has ban has been implemented.

I'l also admit to some very serious BDSM role play (in Arm) on occasion.

But...

- You cannot ask someone for consent to rape their pc.
- You cannot accuse an PC, NPC or VNPC of raping your character.
- You cannot sit in a tavern and tell the story of your PC being raped.
- You cannot play out a rape storyline even if the other person you are playing with is consenting.
- You cannot persecute another PC, NPC or VNPC for rape, because rape should not be part of an active storyline.
- If you include rape in your pc's background it should remain as that, background.  You can use it to shape your pc's world view, you cannot use it as a motivation to kill all tall, muscular men because they have reminded you of a terrible situation.

I recognize that the sexual urge (non-gender specific) is one of the most dominant in our race.  Sex is a key driver in many, many aspects of our society.  Politicians are impeached, kicked out of office or imprisoned for sexual acts.  We (humans) use sex to get the things we want, we use the things others want to get sex (shit, in North America we have an entire industry based upon it) and we TAKE sex.  It happens.  It happened to my wife.  I believe it happened to me when I was very, very young (luckily young enough to not remember).  And it is horrific.

I applaud staff for removing the ACT of rape from the game, with no judgement against players of characters that have raped or been raped because it is a crazy strong method of character development.  This is long overdue.

BUT to say that I can't discuss the history of my character being raped and how it shaped the course of his or her life makes the ACT of my character being raped insignificant.  Well, that is just wrong.  She/he can't even talk about one of the most disgusting and life-changing experiences of their lives?  He/she can't explore the emotional trauma of a physical act?  Sorry, don't agree with that.

And being raped in your background can't influence the way you RP?  Nope, not buying in to this one.  Look at current news in just about any city.  People are damaged in more than a dozen different ways each and every day.  The act of being damaged (in any way) causes a change in the way a person behaves.  It could be that they become very introverted.  It could be that they never buy Cheetoz again.  It could be that they shun sex in all manner.  It could be that they become homo/heterosexual.  It could be that they want to kill every left-handed, ebon-tressed, crimson-eyed, club-footed, big-nosed man/woman/stump they meet.  Who knows?

I have a character idea that I am have been thinking about for a RL YEAR and am dying to play.  But one of the most significant events is that the character WAS raped.  It changed the course of his/her life.  Suddenly this becomes a "oh...something happened..."?  The entire character concept becomes shit.  I can no longer even app this character.

Ban the act, yes.  Ban the existence?  Hell no.  Do we ban murder next?  How about betrayal?  When does corruption come up?

When does "Armageddon.  Murder, corruption & betrayal." become "Armageddon.  Puppies, rainbows and unicorns."?

[evilcabbage]

Like I said. This is weak. There are better ways to go about this. It's a change I highly disagree with because it detracts from the facet of wickedness that some people were able to portray very well, and "might" have gotten away with if they were more careful. It also destroys the concepts of certain characters, and removes potential plotlines. All in all, a -1 to the severity of harshness.

What I find even funnier is staff is really fast to pull the "just because you're talking on the GDB and other guys are talking doesn't mean anything" when there is something being discussed and they shut it down, but this rule has come into effect, there is some vocal support, and some vocal dissent, and they're just instantly siding with the dissent. You guys have gotta just straight up say "We don't CARE what you think on this topic, the rule is the rule, and that is final".

[Zoan]

It was very likely not resulting in an 11 minute discussion, and more spending hours poring over logs to sort out a complaint and deciding they've had enough.

Please re-read my quotes and my question. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying.

In context with reading my note, I wasn't actually disagreeing with you. I was backing up what you said. I think I just said it really bad as I typed it out blearily before falling into bed with a headache.

[Zoan]

BDSM isn't rape, it's kinky sex. That's cool. Just no rape-play, man.

Staffies would have probably been fine with us consenting to rape plotlines until they needed to pore through logs for hours in response to what was, probably, non-consentual rape roleplay (or something that got out of hand, man I don't even know, if you're uncomfortable with something that's happening wish up or quit OOC or something).

[Culinary Critic]

I'm inclined to think the "Someone complained to much" line of reasoning is a myth. Partly because I find it a kind of distasteful reasoning, but largely because I was part of a rape plotline tangle, and the only report I had filed was one noting its existence. I think the real weak point was in the Consent documentation: I'm not sure it was ever spelled out that accusing a PC of rape was tantamount to that PC being raped, and required the same level of consent. That is where I saw trouble arise.

We have long had very specific rules on sex/rape in the consent files.  Someone submits a complaint, fine and dandy.  Investigate.  Review file...did victim player consent to rape?  

Yes = shut up.  You consented to this crazy shit.  Watch what you're doing because your next complaint will cause you some serious trouble.

No = (to rapist) You are a dumb player and will be sanctioned.  You are on the naughty step and this is some serious shit.  If you do anything (I repeat ANYTHING) even remotely close to resembling this again, you will be banned for life.  You get one warning and this is it.  Don't go be a dumb ass no more or you will be off in some B level RPG.

[BadSkeelz]

Except the rules weren't specific, at least in the area I highlighted ("being accused of rape" needing as much consent as  "actual participation in an act of rape"). I haven't looked at the Consent file in a long time, and it's been changed since, but I'm pretty sure it was never made clear that, even if your'e going to accuse someone of being a rapist, you need to ask that person first. That's where I've seen troubles.

"Investigating" is a problem. It takes time, time in which other PCs may have already heard the accusations and begun acting on. The game world may become irrevocable altered by PC reactions in the time it takes staff to sort out just what the heck happened (if they ever sort it out; I doubt investigating is so easy as opening a log file and searching for "rape").  It'd become especially problematic in situations where the alleged-rapist and alleged-victim PCs may never had even shared a room together, with the accusations having been invented by a third party for their own motives.

What do you do if the answer to your scenario is "No, a rape never occurred, and the accused party never gave consent to even be accused of it", but the accused's minions have already deserted/betrayed him, or even just spread the word wide and far across the Known? Do you attempt to roll things back, which will be awkward at best?  Or do you leave events to stand as they are, which would mean a consent-breaking action was still allowed to affect the roleplay.

"Rape plotlines" encompasses a whole lot more than just one PC raping another. I imagine that's the most straightforward and easily monitored scenario.

[evilcabbage]

It does occur to me based on U.S. penal code systems...

If the characters are drunk, can they legitimately give consent? What if they feel bad about it afterwards? What if one decides that, because they were drunk, they didn't properly consent to have sex? NOW what?

[Jeshin]

I appear to say this one example...

I am a Tuluki bard... Lets say Driamusek.

I kank a dirty dirt Akai Sjir Necker... Lets say a devilish charmistic one with a really cool hat.

Anyone who is aware that incident MUST presume my completely outwardly upstanding Tuluki bard is in love with an elf and isn't being raped or abused or forced into it by blackmail or gicker wriggling...

I mean it was all probably consenting anyway, but it means PCs must assume that all taboo relationships are products of love and nothing nefarious.

[greasygemo]

Sooooooo if my PC gets drunk / high / is a retard with an IQ of 5 and does unspeakable, deviant things with a dwarf/elf/gicker/breed/half-giant(...not sure even even possibly could work but you get the idea..) and gets caught, it can no longer be assumed that it was non-consensual and that PC can't go UH UH UH ..NO IT WAS TOTALLY RAPE I WOULD NEVER DO THAT! *shifty eyes* Because.. rape doesn't.. exist?

Also, what about if you're PC is really violent and eating the flesh of his/her enemies is akin to a sex act for them as it makes them all aroused on the inside, as some psychos get off on pure, terrific violence.. does that count? Bloodlustiness? Even if no boobies or wee wees are shown or touching of ones self occurs?

Oooooor what about gelding someone for torture / revenge purposes? Or stabbing someone in the boobs to disfigure them? Is this all considered "rapey" because there are boobs / testicles being referenced though not in a sexual way? Because let's face it, the motherfucker that stole your mate by the Highlord he is not going to foster any children by them, and that wench-gortok-face-whore is never going to be desired by another man as much as you, so lopping off her tah tahs so she'll come crawling back like the titless dummy she is seems poetically fitting, not at all insane, as you are a jealous, cruel and vicious bastard, etc

And I haven't read the whole thread yet but ... are all half-breeds now born of loving elf and human parents who defied traditions and expressed their passion for one another through a lovechild?

I can still get drunk, high and swear while pissing myself, in a bar, followed by puking on someone, then be disembowled publicly by the milita and crap myself when I die, as long as I don't have a nip slip right? So long as consent is provided for graphic, terrible, disgusting, clockwork orange levels of violence by parties present?

EDIT: What a weird xmas thread we've got going on here..

EDIT #2: As I'm thinking about it, it's mostly the fact that it's now no longer open as a thing that happens virtually which can shape a PC's RP and mindset, as they were a victim or their VNPC brother was molested by elves, etc, etc. that bothers me.. The banning of the actual action itself is fine, and anyway, FTB happens all the time in situations of extremely graphic violence and gore, or otherwise traumatizing events. So whatevs on making rape a thing you can't act out physically.

The second thing that concerns me is how we are going to actually label it as it's been mentioned several times that there are a number of definitons for the act. Withdrawn consent post-act, drunkeness / high on spice, indecent exposure (accidental or purposefully), grabbing someones boob in the Gaj, squeezing someones balls in an inflict pain not for sex kind of way, saying "NO" mid-sex and changing your mind, and so forth. We need to be awful careful about how we label what "rape" means if we intend to start dropping ban hammers.

[Inks]

Edit: Was being crude. But what about animals and corpses?