Setting ones skill level

[RogueGunslinger]

I really like the idea, but any skill gains would have to naturally be removed. Otherwise, yeah, great idea.

[evilcabbage]

Junk the item when you succeed crafting it.

There's your failure.

[BuNutzCola]

The pretending to be newbie, but grand master warrior says to you, in sirihish: "Well....okay, I'll try boss."

>kill fakingdude

The fakingdude swiftly parries your attack.
The fakingdude chops you on your neck, inflicting a grevious wound.
The fakingdude chops you on your neck, inflicting a grevious wound.
Your vision goes black.

Someone looks about, with a sheepish expression, as you bleed to death.



How does one participate codedly in combat and "rp failures." ?

EDIT: I understand this is a rare situation. But for things other than crafting, what would you recommend?
Arrows can be just shot without a target, which is useful. But one can't purposely fail at combat in this game.

I'd love the idea joe somebody could bribe that Kuraci Pit Champion to "throw" next season's fight against Runner #234562 in order to rake in the coin on the bets placed.

Or maybe not every mentor in combat is not interested in beating the absolute shit out of their protege while trying to teach them how to fight.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I can't really understand an argument against this by any player.

I could understand staff arguing against this, because of the coding.

But how could an player dislike the idea in any way?

[Patuk]

I can't really understand an argument against this by any player.

I could understand staff arguing against this, because of the coding.

But how could an player dislike the idea in any way?

I didn't choose the metagaming life, the meta life chose me

[evilcabbage]

I just want people to read the OP. He was very friggen clear that there would be no skillgains. Why do you guys stupidly insist on saying "i support this IF THERE ARE NO SKILLGAINS" when the OP already STATED that that was the intention? Come on.

[Lizzie]

Cabbage why are you getting so worked up? It's not like this is groundbreaking stuff here, it's been proposed and requested in the past and the staff has chosen not to implement it (either because it's too much work, or it's a low priority, or it's in progress and not scheduled to be out yet, or they just don't wanna). It's mostly just chatter on a forum.

[i love toilets]

I can't really understand an argument against this by any player.

I could understand staff arguing against this, because of the coding.

But how could an player dislike the idea in any way?

Yeah, I read the whole thing and am feeling like there's something I'm missing here, since people are arguing against it.

An example, ten game year sargaent should be able to meet, and slowly but gradually exceed the level at which he is fighting the new runner in order to test their abilities, instead of trying to fight them, but then almost killing them instantly. This exact example happens too much, a few fighters in the game are just too good to train newbies, which doesn't make sense.

[Harmless]

I like the concept. I just don't want it to be too exact, or else I'd feel like I'm controlling a fighting robot. The suggestions of being able to set skills to roughly a novice, apprentice, or journeyman level seems fine. I don't want numbers in my RPI so no percentages.

I also think the variation in skill level should get higher as you go farther from your natural level. for instance somebody who is journeyman in slashing who wants to pretend to be a novice will do a pretty good job at that since it wasn't that long ago that they were completely new. however a master swordsman will have a really hard time pretending to be a novice, and there will be a chance each time he attacks that he will randomly do much better than he should be for a novice. a master swordsman however, will be able to pretend to be at a journeyman level more accurately, with less chance for randomly inserted critical failures or critical successes.

But yeah, it's a good idea and would add realistic controls and reduce awkward scenes.

[Riya OniSenshi]

An example, ten game year sargaent should be able to meet, and slowly but gradually exceed the level at which he is fighting the new runner in order to test their abilities, instead of trying to fight them, but then almost killing them instantly. This exact example happens too much, a few fighters in the game are just too good to train newbies, which doesn't make sense.

Or people could, you know, learn how to train people as opposed to merely fighting them.
There are plenty of ways to train people at the combat skills that do not involve putting them into the hp range that requires sleep to regen. If one hasn't figured those out, it's their own fault for not trying hard enough. A "code-crutch" of suspect difficulty to add to the game for staff isn't going to help. It might solve the problem for those at fault, but it won't help them in any way.

As far as for things like crafting skills... I've never heard of anyone demanding they craft something right in front of them to prove they can or can't do it since I started playing. When it involves crafter employees of merchant houses, that might be necessary at times as those are jobs that do need a specific skill-set, or maybe a templar/noble calling you out on claims, but other than that, I can't think of any reason such a thing would legitimately happen.

I would personally rather have staff spending their time on that list they have of things they've already decided to work on.

[RogueGunslinger]

For all we know this IS the next thing on the list.

[Delirium]

disengage

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Not the same, dear Delirium, but yes, it helps.

[i love toilets]

An example, ten game year sargaent should be able to meet, and slowly but gradually exceed the level at which he is fighting the new runner in order to test their abilities, instead of trying to fight them, but then almost killing them instantly. This exact example happens too much, a few fighters in the game are just too good to train newbies, which doesn't make sense.

Or people could, you know, learn how to train people as opposed to merely fighting them.

There are plenty of ways to train people at the combat skills that do not involve putting them into the hp range that requires sleep to regen. If one hasn't figured those out, it's their own fault for not trying hard enough. A "code-crutch" of suspect difficulty to add to the game for staff isn't going to help. It might solve the problem for those at fault, but it won't help them in any way.

As far as for things like crafting skills... I've never heard of anyone demanding they craft something right in front of them to prove they can or can't do it since I started playing. When it involves crafter employees of merchant houses, that might be necessary at times as those are jobs that do need a specific skill-set, or maybe a templar/noble calling you out on claims, but other than that, I can't think of any reason such a thing would legitimately happen.

I would personally rather have staff spending their time on that list they have of things they've already decided to work on.

Yikes, see? This is what I mean. Where's all this weird irrational negativity coming from? Is it because of thanksgiving?

[Riev]

Or people could, you know, learn how to train people as opposed to merely fighting them.
There are plenty of ways to train people at the combat skills that do not involve putting them into the hp range that requires sleep to regen. If one hasn't figured those out, it's their own fault for not trying hard enough. A "code-crutch" of suspect difficulty to add to the game for staff isn't going to help. It might solve the problem for those at fault, but it won't help them in any way.

First off, you could sit there and give people the coded teach command for parry, slashing weapons, and shield use every day, without codedly fighting them, until you have expending every last bit you can teach. The next time you fight them, because their defense is so low, there's a good chance you'll still wreck them. Offense and Defense need to be trained, by ACTUALLY being in combat, just as other things do. Not every clan is the Byn, where you have 4-5 people you can codedly fight that are differing levels. If you're some old Militia Sergeant, and ALL YOU HAVE is that one Recruit, you should have a realistic option to fight them in a safe manner.

I would personally rather have staff spending their time on that list they have of things they've already decided to work on.

You, personally, don't know what staff are, or aren't, working on. And if you do, then you are current or ex-staff and have been around long enough to know that sometimes an idea comes up, that a coder or producer really want to spend their time on, and it just kind of happens. Otherwise, to me, that is an -incredibly- toxic way to dismiss someone's idea.

[RogueGunslinger]

Not the same, dear Delirium, but yes, it helps.

It also sort of ignores all those people who were knocked out and then killed in the first couple rounds of combat with their e-twoing sergeant. That shit happens REALLY fast sometimes.

An example, ten game year sargaent should be able to meet, and slowly but gradually exceed the level at which he is fighting the new runner in order to test their abilities, instead of trying to fight them, but then almost killing them instantly. This exact example happens too much, a few fighters in the game are just too good to train newbies, which doesn't make sense.

Or people could, you know, learn how to train people as opposed to merely fighting them.

There are plenty of ways to train people at the combat skills that do not involve putting them into the hp range that requires sleep to regen. If one hasn't figured those out, it's their own fault for not trying hard enough. A "code-crutch" of suspect difficulty to add to the game for staff isn't going to help. It might solve the problem for those at fault, but it won't help them in any way.

As far as for things like crafting skills... I've never heard of anyone demanding they craft something right in front of them to prove they can or can't do it since I started playing. When it involves crafter employees of merchant houses, that might be necessary at times as those are jobs that do need a specific skill-set, or maybe a templar/noble calling you out on claims, but other than that, I can't think of any reason such a thing would legitimately happen.

I would personally rather have staff spending their time on that list they have of things they've already decided to work on.

Yikes, see? This is what I mean. Where's all this weird irrational negativity coming from? Is it because of thanksgiving?

No man, some people are just REALLY against any form of change. It's irritating to see yet another "Staffs time should be spent doing other things that we aren't even discussing right now." post though. Entirely useless comment to make, as if EVERYONE wouldn't' rather the staff be working on the things they personally want, instead of the things they don't care that much about, even if it doesn't effect them in any negative way.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, we are discussing the merits of the idea, not whether staff should be doing this instead of something else.

[Harmless]

Venomz' sig is correct.

Also, this idea can be used for combat skills in non-training scenarios as already hinted at. Of course nobody is saying drop everything and code a difficult tweak into ass-ancient DIKU today.

And in the spirit of gluttony and regret day, I will say I am infinitely thankful for staff's time and an already amazing RPI with one of my favorite combat systems ever, even if seemingly simple.

[Delirium]

Between teach, using a shield or offhand only, nosave combat and disengage there really is no excuse for the 'whoopsie I broke the recruit' scenario unless you're a half giant or mul. As for the original idea, meh, but those of you complaining that 'training newbies is hard' need to get more creative

[Lizzie]

Between teach, using a shield or offhand only, nosave combat and disengage there really is no excuse for the 'whoopsie I broke the recruit' scenario unless you're a half giant or mul. As for the original idea, meh, but those of you complaining that 'training newbies is hard' need to get more creative

Teach - can't teach raw defense.
Shield - doesn't teach raw defense.
Offhand only - can still one-hit-wonder a low-defense recruit.
Nosave combat = can't teach raw defense.
Disengage = can't teach raw defense.

None of those things, other than off-hand weapons only, can help a recruit advance in defense. And the off-hand weapon only is no more useful than a primary hand, if the sergeant is mastered in all the weapons and combat styles (dual wield, etc) he's using, and the recruit has newbie defense. A city elf assassin recruit in the Byn, is not going to get much better at defending himself, if his Sergeant is a maxed warrior and he's the only one available to spar with other than the dummy. The Sergeant has to either a) disengage and *be* the dummy - which doesn't provide ANY defense to the recruit, or risk reeling and KO'ing the elf in the first hit, which also won't be useful, or fun, and not even believable roleplay.

It is for this reason, that the idea of being able to lower your skill max, is a good idea. It is better code-wise, AND better RP-wise, for a Sergeant to be more defensive and less aggressive, but *not* be 100% defensive and 0% aggressive, when sparring with his recruits.

Also to Riya OniSenshi - I think this skill-lowering toggle should be available for -all- skills, not just combat. If you really believe the -only- time someone would want to pretend they suck at crafting is if they're ordered by a templar or noble to prove it, then I'd say you've never played a master crafter who wanted to screw over his Kadian crewmates and boss. There's been plenty of times when I thought it'd be a great idea, during "group crafting" sessions, to make it look like my character wasn't particularly accomplished, but -was- capable of at least codedly attempting the skills.

Foraging was already changed to accommodate a "lower skill" ability. It used to be, once you became master level with foraging, it'd be very difficult to successfully forage for low-level items. That was changed, so that you can now forage for specific items. Used to be you'd forage wood, and end up with branches almost all the time (rather than twigs or vines, which someone might actually WANT to find), once you hit master forage. Likewise for people looking only for sandhoppers, instead of ocotillo bulbs (or whatever the appropriately more difficult thing to find is, in the location where you'd find sandhoppers).

Obviously, the staff agreed that this would be a useful thing. That's why they implemented it.

Different reasoning perhaps, but the concept is the same. The ability to intentionally attempt lesser-skilled tasks. I can think of some magickal and psionic things that this would be useful for as well. And sneak/hide/scan/hunt - I can totally see uses for intentionally being less-than-master at it, even if codedly, you are master at it.

[Delirium]

You can still teach raw defense. Either hit them once or twice with a weapon to end the fight, or if that's too dangerous, use your fists.

[Riev]

Isnt the idea of "using a different weapon" or "use your fists" inherently more metagaming than a coded option to not fight at your best, at the expense of learning any new skills?

I mean... correct me if Im wrong. Codedly fighting at "less than best" is less about fooling the player as it is the PC. Lets move away from the Sergeant killing someone example and move on to other scenarios in which this will enrich the experience, or not. Like a general discussion instead of what seems to be happening this last page.

[Morgenes]

Is fist fighting really meta gaming?  Isn't it teaching the basics of combat, without any weapons getting in the way?  Isn't that kind of the point?

[RogueGunslinger]

Is fist fighting really meta gaming?  Isn't it teaching the basics of combat, without any weapons getting in the way?  Isn't that kind of the point?

I see Reiv's point to be more about realism. It's simply unrealistic to have to go through all the strange coded quirks that allow you to train someone less skilled than you(things you can only learn from other people who know the code, thus metagame). Such that if you went to get trained in real life and Sergeant Amos of your local MMA club started tying their hand behind their back, using a weapon they have no experience with in their off-hand, and strapped on the heaviest bag they could find, you'd think Sergeant Amos was a fucking retard and you'd go find a new Martial Arts club.

[evilcabbage]

Is fist fighting really meta gaming?  Isn't it teaching the basics of combat, without any weapons getting in the way?  Isn't that kind of the point?

If you can dodge a fist, you might be able to dodge a sword.

It also might help develop hand-eye coordination, combat reflexes, and development of good fighting babits.